With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Enochi]

Hmm funny way to end this up would be Zeus going. "Yeah pissed me off that she rejected me. Sent her there cause it needed to be done and was overdue and I wanted her out of sight while I cooled down." Still incredibly petty but somewhat reasonable.

 

[Doccer]

Why was Match excluded?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Why was Match excluded?

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Zatanna hasn't spent much time with him, and he's not technically on the team.

 

[Pinklestia]

So... Zeus just signed for a very long Time Out in the Source Wall?

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

Meanwhile on Apocalypse

Darkseid: "Yes, this plot will take Zeus out of the picture. Have we got anything to sic this Orange Lantern on the other Sky-fathers? Earth shall be an easy conquest with the various pantheons in civil war"

DeSaad: "We're working on a few things, the front runner is boomtubing gigantic baked goods signed by Odin and Jupiter, to strip this Paul creature of his God Name"

Darksied: "The Wrath of the Cake Man shall be Glorious Indeed. Make It So"

 

[Rafin]

Was Paul's thought and speech this red when he saw slaver Nabu being accepted by the Justice League? I can't remember.

Also, I get how Orange Enlightenment allows him to keep Avarice levels steady despite feeling this much rage. But why does he glow more Orange during his rage? Either Enlightenment allows him to steady his avarice regardless of external emotional influence or it doesn't, no?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Was Paul's thought and speech this red when he saw slaver Nabu being accepted by the Justice League? I can't remember.

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No. He was too astonished.

Also, I get how Orange Enlightenment allows him to keep Avarice levels steady despite feeling this much rage. But why does he glow more Orange during his rage? Either Enlightenment allows him to steady his avarice regardless of external emotional influence or it doesn't, no?

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Undirected need. When he wants to achieve an end but doesn't have a methodology, his environmental shield flares.

 

[Vaermina]

"Because they'll probably work on Olympians, too."

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You know the truly sad part in all this?

If Zoat is at all maintaining Zeus's characterization from the comics, all Paragon should need to do to get Diana released from the duty is humble himself by making a direct and honest plea to Zeus.

 

[Stsword]

Well if not for the man-crush on Hades, I'd think it's time for the Athena takes over Olympus and Ares becomes god of Death and War storyline from WW.

Although the first one could still happen, I suppose.

 

[0zymandias]

You know the truly sad part in all this?

If Zoat is at all maintaining Zeus's characterization from the comics, all Paragon should need to do to get Diana released from the duty is humble himself by making a direct and honest plea to Zeus.

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What's Zeus' character like in comics? I think it's more positive but idek

 

[Ngamer11]

What's Zeus' character like in comics? I think it's more positive but idek

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Mixed bag sort of deal. He leads the pantheon and is against the Titans, but still sleeps around, tried to get into Wonder Woman's pants, and has numerous offspring, some of whom might turn evil.

 

[Kennethil]

Just read the 4 updates of this latest arc and I can't stop giggling. Zeus is in for a rude awakening.

 

[Vaermina]

Mixed bag sort of deal. He leads the pantheon and is against the Titans, but still sleeps around, tried to get into Wonder Woman's pants, and has numerous offspring, some of whom might turn evil.

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The trying to get into Wonder Woman's pants thing was retconned.

 

[Caligstro]

Yes and no.

Turning people into New Gods is most definitely a thing.

The Black Racer, for example, is a wheelchair bound vet when he isn't claiming souls for the Source, he debuted in 1971.

The Japanese Super Young Team were introduced as the new Forever People of the Fifth World in Final Crisis.

Jimmy Olsen of Earth-2, post flashpoint, was turned into a New God, a Justice League storyline had most of them gaining godhood- Superman absorbing the firepits of Apokalips, Batman gaining Metron's chair, Hal having a 'box merge with his ring. Lex Luthor got possessed by the Omega Effect.

In Lanterns versus New Gods, Highfather used the Life Equation to turn people into New Gods. Darkseid turned Azrael, Cyborg, and Starfire into New Gods in Justice League Odyssey.

Zoat however largely made up his cosmology from scratch, including the mechanism for New God apotheosis.

So yes you'll find people becoming New Gods in the comics, but you'll never see someone talk about awakening someone's soul so that they can grow by absorbing ambient energy.

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I'm a little late seeing this, but I wanted to thank you for the very helpful and thorough reply!

Also one of those examples really has me scratching my head - "possessed by the Omega Effect?"

That's a thing? What does it even mean? Just like he gets to use it like Grayven or Darkseid? Or is it more than that?

 

[Tzeentch]

"I am aware of the likely disruptions to the thaumosphere that would come from an entity like Zeus being consumed. I promise that I will not attempt to consume Zeus.

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Rather than KILLING Zeus, perhaps it would be best if he were to be placed under a Geas/Binding instead.....

 

[Vaermina]

The people saying Paragon should kill Zeus should really research what the end result of Zeus dying is.

 

[Acksiom]

This feels... really male power fantasy-ish.

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Take two imaginings of a fanon-consistent Paula's reaction instead of a Paul's, and PM me in the morning.

 

[Stsword]

I'm a little late seeing this, but I wanted to thank you for the very helpful and thorough reply!

Also one of those examples really has me scratching my head - "possessed by the Omega Effect?"

That's a thing? What does it even mean? Just like he gets to use it like Grayven or Darkseid? Or is it more than that?

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The Omega Effect is an outside source of energy that several New Gods tried to claim.

Uxas's older brother, Drax, was the next in line.

Uxas entered with a suit designed by DeSaad to allow him to be the one who finally succeeded, which is what gave him the Omega Beams, the rock like skin, and Uxas took the "god name," ie adult name, Darkseid.

So the Omega Effect predates Darkseid, and will survive him.

Basically the same situation with Orion and the Astro-Force, Highfather and the Source, and Scott Free and the Anti-Life Equation.

The Astro-Force, Source, and ALE have all been shown to have their own personalities, but the Omega Effect either does not or is just passive enough it's never forced the issue.

 

[0zymandias]

The people saying Paragon should kill Zeus should really research what the end result of Zeus dying is.

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What is the end result of Zeus dying? I don't think Greek mythology has an ragnarock-like event or prophecy. If he dies, he that shouldn't mean the end of the dynasty but just a new King

 

[Vaermina]

What is the end result of Zeus dying? I don't think Greek mythology has an ragnarock-like event or prophecy. If he dies, he that shouldn't mean the end of the dynasty but just a new King

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Things that happen for sure unless there's a Zoat retcon.

The Marvel Family loose their powers.

Things that have happened in the settings where he's died but might not because there are setting differences.

Darkseid get's a huge power boost as he put in place a trap thousands of years ago to absorb Zeus's essence/power when he died.

The First Born is freed to fulfill the prophecy and take the Throne of Olympus, where upon he absorbs many of the Olympians, turns the place into a nightmare realm, and starts a full on war of the gods that causes mass destruction and suffering across the mortal realm.

The Titan's are freed because Zeus's pact was the load bearing pillar keeping them asleep/dead.

 

[Bramble Thorn]

"I beg your pardon?"

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One of the things I've noticed about Paul's enlightenment.

He very rarely gets angry. Because most of the day to day anger people have are ultimately, minor things. Stuff Paul is self aware enough to know he isn't that invested in, nor should he be. The "Why are you letting that take up space in your head rent free?" part of his philosophy. Either he cares enough about something to deal with it, or he doesn't.

But that means that when something does happen to get him angry (pops up in rage vision), it is also something that bothers him enough to want to dealt with. He doesn't do 'frustration' types of anger. He does 'I find this fundamentally offensive' anger.

Did Zeus just become an 'Agenda Item'?
An error in the way OL thinks the universe should work, that needs to be dealt with in one way or another?

Also, I remember a story where Zeus ended up getting killed, and the person who who either saw or arranged the deed made provision so his divinity went to Billy Batson (already linked to Zeus's divinity through the Z in SHAZAM as the bearer of Zeus's whatever.) Was that one of the alternate OL segments, or some other story entirely?

Like I get it Zeus isn't exactly the most respectable character but he is at the level of power that he can say "What the fuck are you going to do about it!" to just about everyone and Paul doesn't even have the sword of the fallen anymore.

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So you are saying OL needs to go to the three King-Angels, and demand a new god slaying sword as restitution for the one they destroyed in their unjust invasion earlier?

Honestly, that is something they really should have already done.
They were in the wrong, and even admitted such.
Restitution by making the injured party whole from your actions is par for the course.

Honestly, OL has a fate much worst than death for old Zeusie. He could try to cut him off from the orange light entirely. He'll live, but never feel lust again. Pretty sure that'll be a threat that'll work here.

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This is a horrific idea. But also something that the Ophidian could potentially do, because it wouldn't be about power at all, but about authority. Zeus could be much more powerful, but that power operates under the framework the the universes laws, and she seems to be the Administrator of 1/7th of the universes emotions.

And like some of OL's early orange light techniques, even has a Exalted Charm name.
Extinction of Desire...

Why does everyone think Paul wins a straight fight?

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Why would he be dumb enough to do a straight fight?
When he decided to go toe to toe with Nabu he came at him obliquely.
Prepared the battleground, gathered allies.
Nabu didn't end up KO'd/Dead from Righteous Face Punching. He ended up mystically lobotomized.

If Paul was to take a swing at the king, I'd expect something like that Extinction of Desire above, or freeing/separating Metis from inside him, possibly in a way that has her take a good chunk of his power with her as she separates. And putting off the throwdown with Zeus until after he tracks down Constantine (who he is already looking for), on account of John being really good at that sort of thing; dealing with supernatural heavies by coming at them sideways.

The Astro-Force, Source, and ALE have all been shown to have their own personalities, but the Omega Effect either does not or is just passive enough it's never forced the issue.

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Or it's personality is how Darkseid currently acts. Like Uxas had a different personality before all this, and either lost the battle of wills, or chose to jump off of the slippery slope for more power.

 

[Cuchulin]

Paul should try getting Hera and the other Olympians that most favor Diana to help him, Zeus needs some serious spanking and not of the kind he is into.

 

[Ngamer11]

Paul should try getting Hera and the other Olympians that most favor Diana to help him, Zeus needs some serious spanking and not of the kind he is into.

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I don't remember who said it, but it was mentioned that Zeus is still king because he's the strongest. So I'm unsure if even an alliance between several Olympians will be able to defeat him.

 

[Oglymogly]

This is a horrific idea. But also something that the Ophidian could potentially do, because it wouldn't be about power at all, but about authority. Because power operates under the framework the the universes laws, and she seems to be the Administrator of 1/7th of the universes emotions.

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I actually faintly recalled that OL actually did this at least once. And tracked down the chapter.
He stripped a Famine Elemental of most of its connection to the Orange Light Spectrum, and it fell apart. And considering how often OL calls gods 'jumped up elementals'.., well, its definitely a option that has potential to work.

 

[Cuchulin]

I don't remember who said it, but it was mentioned that Zeus is still king because he's the strongest. So I'm unsure if even an alliance between several Olympians will be able to defeat him.

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Oh, I wasn't talking about fighting or "taking him down". I was talking about politics and indirect methods of helping OL/punishing Zeus.

 

[RichardWhereat]

I do like the idea of Zeus marrying a polyamorous woman, but all this talk of Zeus being killed makes me wonder; who will Mantle Zeus if that happens?

 

[Darko]

What is the end result of Zeus dying? I don't think Greek mythology has an ragnarock-like event or prophecy. If he dies, he that shouldn't mean the end of the dynasty but just a new King

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Try to imagine something similar to God of War for when a god dies.

Also, I remember a story where Zeus ended up getting killed, and the person who who either saw or arranged the deed made provision so his divinity went to Billy Batson (already linked to Zeus's divinity through the Z in SHAZAM as the bearer of Zeus's whatever.) Was that one of the alternate OL segments, or some other story entirely?

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It was Absolute Power Sucks Absolutely.

I do like the idea of Zeus marrying a polyamorous woman, but all this talk of Zeus being killed makes me wonder; who will Mantle Zeus if that happens?

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Mantle's aren't a thing in this universe.

And Zeus marrying a polyamorous woman may not work since he doesn't like his wife having other partners.

 

[Mr Zoat]

26th October 2012
22:29 GMT -5

Richard edges away as I move to stand at the front of the team's semicircle huddle. My environmental shield is still expanded, but it's not quite the roaring house fire that it was a few moments ago.

"This is Zeus."

I connect my ring to the hologram projector and bring up an image of the avatar Zeus used when he met Helena Sandsmark. Between her photographs of the trip and the ship's security cameras I had more than enough to create a three dimensional model.

"He's King of the Olympians, a pantheon of gods worshipped by the inhabitants of one small and insignificant island in the Aegean Sea, and a handful of weirdoes in other places. When encountered like this, he's fairly weak."

Noriel frowns. "Weak?"

"To be precise, mildly superhuman strength and endurance, and some ability to manipulate electricity. Everyone here with their normal equipment could take him down. That is because gods can't maintain strong avatars in the material world for long without a great deal of effort and assistance, and Zeus doesn't have enough worshippers to pull it off."

I pause.

"It occurs to me just now that while most of you know about why I-." I make eye contact with Zatanna and not Robert. "Why we went after Nabu, we never really discussed the methodology. How we went about working out how to fight a high-end arcane life form. The first stage isn't much different to a more mundane target: find out everything you can about them. Find people who know things about them, and have reason to do them harm. Find people with relevant skills and work out how to bind them to your cause. When we had our first meeting about dealing with Nabu, I asked if we were willing to make common cause with Klarion."

That gets a quiet-

"Dude."

-from Wallace.

"We decided that it wasn't even worth considering. And we decided it that evening. Who are Zeus's enemies?"

Raquel straightens slightly. "The Titans, right? Cronus, and… Whoever."

"I doubt that anyone in Tartarus likes him very much. Or Tartarus itself. Several Titans, gods and demigods ended up down there at the end of the Titanomachy. And I don't know of enough reliably unbiased sources to want to base my decisions on them. Oceanus was wrecking the Atlantic rim because Orm did something to him. Helios has-" I glance at Kon's dull glow. "-been nothing but helpful. Did the Olympians serve anyone else by defeating Cronus, or did they just want to avoid being consumed? Don't know."

Kaldur nods. "We will need to find out."

Donna nods. "I'll go. Cronus is more likely to speak with me than with anyone else."

"Would Lord Hades let you in?"

"I'll just tell him that I want to speak to Diana."

"Which is a problem. Diana's not stupid enough to believe that my reaction to this situation will be anything less than total apoplexy. If any of us start walking up to the prisoners in Tartarus for a chat, she's not going to be happy."

"Um!" New Kara raises her right hand. "We should just ask Zeus to stop being a poopy head!"

"We did that to Nabu just before the fight started. And though I agree that Zeus should be given a chance to stand down before direct violent action is taken, asking him before we've finished planning our attack just abandons any sort of element of surprise."

Garth nods. "Would it shame him into allowing Wonder Woman to leave Tartarus if we conclusively demonstrated that the Titans don't have any sort of escape plan?"

"They've been down there for about seven thousand years. I'd be amazed if they think about anything other than escaping. I did learn from Hades that Zeus is the one stopping them from being considered for parole, so there's that."

"Are we..?" Artemis looks around. "Are we talking about killing a god?"

"Killing a god is perfectly possible. Killing an avatar isn't hard, and the core consciousness is just a mass of magical energy. I'd rather avoid it though; tearing something like that apart would radiate huge amounts of raw magic out into the Earth's thaumosphere. The issue is that if you don't have a way to kill someone you want to apprehend, then you probably don't have any way to threaten them."

"I'm gunna need bigger arrows."

"You'd need arcane batteries like the ones we used to drain Nabu, but that probably wouldn't be an efficient approach. With Nabu, we only had to drain what was in his helmet at any one time to erase his mind. With Zeus, you'd have to drain the entire being." I shake my head. "It wouldn't be my choice, though it wouldn't hurt to look into it."

M'gann looks unhappy about the direction of things. "Are we really going to have to fight him?"

"Defeating him, whether that means killing him or just wounding him until he submits, removes his authority. As King, his right to issue orders to his followers is absolute and backed by force."

"Okay, but what if he wasn't king?"

"It's not an elected position. A god or demigod from the Hellenic mythos would have to beat him in a fight, and convince the other gods to accept them. Of the ones I know, Lord Hades is happy where he is and Hephaestus is physically crippled from last time Zeus took issue with him. And Ploutos wouldn't want to unmask his avatar."

Ghia'ta perks up. "What about Hera?"

"If she hasn't gelded him in his sleep already, I doubt that she's up for a fight now."

"Could she not prevail upon him to change his mind? Perhaps find him someone else to grant his attention?"

"You can certainly ask her. As for other goddesses, I doubt it. Zeus has a bad track record for infidelity and while the Hellenic pantheon has seen a minor resurgence lately, he isn't one of the movers. The status isn't there and he isn't that appealing on a personal level."

Something occurs to Kon. "What about Athena? She's Mom's patron goddess."

"We should certainly talk to her. And to your grandmother; since her dodge failed I'd like the whole story. And I need to get hold of Eris. Tempest, Aquagirl, Zatanna: any ideas what would actually happen if Zeus died?"

Three shaking heads, and Canis is smiling in expectation. Probably a bad sign.

"Worth finding out in advance to see what we could do to mitigate it. Just in case."

"Paul…" Richard shakes his head. "Zeus hasn't killed anyone and he's not threatening to kill anyone. I think we should investigate what's going on, but-."

"Zeus might not be able to make a strong avatar, but he can create a storm ten miles across centred on Themyscira and fire lightning bolts until the bedrock melts without leaving his throne. People with superpowers are a threat, and that's true for gods as well."

"Would he?"

"I don't think so, but I've never spoken to him directly and I'm not prepared to risk their lives on my beliefs. Now. Individual assignments."

 

[BlueMangoAdea]

Three shaking heads, and Canis is smiling in expectation. Probably a bad sign.

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Canis: I like where this is going.

 

[Ngamer11]

"Killing a god is perfectly possible. Killing an avatar isn't hard, and the core consciousness is just a mass of magical energy. I'd rather avoid it though: tearing something like that apart would radiate huge amounts of raw magic out into the Earth's thaumosphere. The issue is that if you don't have a way to kill someone you want to apprehend, then you probably don't have any way to threaten."

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That seems like it's missing something. I think you should add 'them', making it: "any way to threaten them".

"It's not an elected position. A god or demigod from the Hellenic mythos would have to beat him in a fight, and convince the other gods to accept them. Of the ones I know, Lord Hades is happy where he is and Hephaestus is physically crippled from last time Zeus took issue with him. And Plutus wouldn't want to unmask his avatar."

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You previously spelled his name as 'Ploutus'. Is this a change that you want to make, or a mistake?

Three shaking heads, and Canis is smiling in expectation. Probably a bad sign.

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What are the odds Canis knows or suspects what would happen if Zeus is killed and is hoping that he can see it in person?