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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Mr Zoat said:
27th October 2012
06:43 GMT +3

"Lord Hades, King of Erebos."

I make a point of bowing to ninety degrees, a formal display of respect and deference. I'm also in formal robes, and my aura hasn't died down to anything like normal resting levels. Hades read my mood rather well, and the petitioner was politely but firmly escorted out by his guards when I arrived.
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I think even the petitioner might well have taken one look at OL, seen the aura, and went 'My business can wait.' This is not a casual visit. This is an angry demi-god (inexact, but the Olympians seem to see him as such) come to discuss something Important.

Zagreus was already here, along with his sister Macaria. I haven't had anything to do with her, though I suppose that technically I've achieved the aim that she sets for her followers on two occasions. Or was the first time too selfish? Honestly, training her up as a judge makes more sense to me than getting Zagreus or Melinoë more involved in running Erebos.
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For reference: Macaria. Little is known of her, but it seems like she is the Goddess of 'Blessed Deaths'. Likely the sort of thing that gets Heroes spoken of in Myth. You know, like OL has managed. :p

Canis doesn't bow, instead just looking around. He doesn't have that near-manic expression he gets when he sees something really interesting, but he is taking the opportunity to have a look around the last resting place of the dead of Greece and anyone who couldn't find anywhere better. Zagreus gives him the occasional look, but otherwise there's little reaction by the gods to a New God.

"Paul, Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps. Rise, rise." I straighten up but otherwise remain fairly rigid. "It does not require the judgement of a god to know why you are here."
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But, just to make sure everyone's on the same page, and no-one makes any mistakes, let's lay it out clearly... Meanwhile, I bet Zagreus is sizing up Canis like a hunter gauging prey. 'I think I could take him.'

"Lord Zeus."

"My brother's treatment of Diana is… A feeble smokescreen to disguise his intention."
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That's so mildly put, it may as well be a plain cracker. :rolleyes:

"Nearly as feeble as the attempts by those involved to prevent me from finding out."

"If you do not want a reputation for highly aggressive responses to those who wrong your allies, then I suggest killing fewer order-lords. And if you want your other allies to have concerns about what you will do should they fail to react in a way they find pleasing, you may want to consider threatening them less."
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In other words, 'It's your own damn fault.' And, to be fair, OL isn't proving them wrong.

"This isn't as bad as the Nabu situation, and they've had less time to think things through. What I wish to know is what you intend to do."

"I have explained to my brother why he should not behave in this way. He in return made certain observations concerning my own marriage and suggested that-. That was why he was disinclined to seek my advice on the subject."
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Or, to put it more crudely, "Keep your fat nose out of my business, brother."

"Did you intend to do anything else?"

"Not at this stage."
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Except hope Zeus looses interest quickly? Wait for him to catch the scent of another pretty face and run off, so he forgets about Diana's little 'chore'?

"Do you believe Lord Zeus for a moment when he claims that the inmates of Tartarus are at a heightened risk of escape?"

"I know of no collaborating evidence, and quite a detailed survey was made after the incidents with Donna Troy and Deva."
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I should hope so.

"What is the mechanism to talk Lord Zeus out of making a poor decision?"

"We talk to him about it until either he decides not to… Or it's too late. Princess Diana is a powerful demigoddess dealing with beings who have been imprisoned for longer than human civilisation has existed. She is in no danger, and I see little harm in her checking my work."
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The joy of dealing with the 800-pound gorilla of Olympus.

"You are not insulted by Lord Zeus ordering someone to check you work?"

"If the actual reason for him sending her wasn't completely transparent, then I might be." He leans forward slightly. "I will be clear now, Illustres. Much as I disagree with what my brother has done, distasteful as I find it, I will not support the sort of aggressive action with which you have become associated. I will certainly not undertake it myself."
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So, that's a 'no' on overthrowing Zeus, then? I suppose he's busy enough with all the fresh business OL has brought in, anyway.

"And if someone else did?"

He contemplates me for a few moments.

"What are you planning, Lantern?"
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A great many things. Now, of those related to 'chastising' Zeus, well...

"A dozen or so things. But at the moment I am simply gathering information. Amongst…" I fan my hands out to either side. "Mortals, dropping waste material in a public street is a criminal act. It's not a serious act, if the quantity of waste is small. Usually a person would just get told to pick whatever it was up." I shrug. "They might get a small fine. It's not a big deal. But.. it.. is a criminal act. And a person can be taken to court over it with all the expenses that involves, and if they don't pay there are interest charges and ultimately debt recovery charges. Someone can be arrested, have their property seized… I think a person can even end up in prison for Contempt of Court if they're really intransigent about it. It's against the law, and that needs to be enforced."
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...And you're trying to draw a parallel to Zeus being an asshole? Problem is, his throne, his rules. It's hard to break rules he's laid out. And I can't think of any higher authority that would care...

"I think that I understand, but perhaps you could clarify."

"A prideful god sending a devotee on a snipe hunt isn't that big a deal. Not really. But it is a misdeed and it is likely that her friends will pursue the matter. However far they must."
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Whether they can hope to be successful? That's another tale.

"My brother does not usually respond well to efforts at compulsion."

I smile. "Neither do order-lords. In my experience."
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And we saw how well that worked out.

"Do you?"

I shrug. "Diana asked me to promise not to attack Lord Zeus. I did. To an extent my hands are bound." I see Zagreus sigh with relief. "But there are ways to make a person's life awkward which do not require direct violence. And I am to my knowledge the only one so bound."
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Heh. A smear campaign against Zeus? Kind of hard to remove what few worshippers he has at this point.

"I hear what you say."

I bow again, this time not quite so far.
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Now, does he like what he's hearing? Well, he's keeping that to himself.

"Thank you for your time, Lord Hades."

He waves his right hand in dismissal, and I turn and walk out of the throne room.
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Well... Not much point seeking out Poseidon. I doubt he'd be any more inclined to even humour OL.

"An interesting experience." Canis pulls himself up onto Brut's back. "A less powerful figure than Darkseid."

"True. I much prefer it this way."
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Too much power gives them ideas above their station, eh?

"I also." We head towards the exit at some speed, Brut loping along beside me as I fly. "I can scarce imagine a universe containing two Darkseids. I would be filled with a most profound confusion."

We exit the palace grounds and head 'west', towards our next interviewee.
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Confusion over who to worship, or whether he'd want to see them fight?

"I was a little surprised that Melinoë wasn't there."

"Your ally, the Goddess of Nightmares and Madness?" I nod. "Truly a shame. I hoped to consult with her."
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Well, she does have nice bone structure. I'm sure she'd enjoy having a portrait done...

"You want to paint madness and nightmares?"

"I wish for her to unleash the full gamut of her wrath upon me, that I might make art while my mind is so afflicted. Or perhaps her efforts might be in vain; having quailed before Darkseid, other sources of fear are far less concerning."
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...Okay. I shudder to imagine what he might produce while zonked like that...

"Maybe later."

"The witch-goddess we are visiting. I do not recall her appearing in your records."
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From that context, it's Hecate. Who did dwell in the Underworld, mythologically speaking.

"I've never met her before, though she has blessed Donna a few times."

"A risk, then. What knowledge do you seek that you cannot find elsewhere?"
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And what precautions have you taken against her simply hexing you and sending you on your way?

"Hades is far more powerful than most Olympians due to his bond with Erebos. But he accepted Zeus becoming the ruler of the gods."

"He has a similar bond to some being."
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...A not unreasonable assumption given the evidence. By that logic, Poseidon probably has a similar link to Oceanus or another such progenitor.

"That would be my guess. But it's not mentioned in Themyscira's holy texts, and neither Hades nor Melinoë nor any of the others have mentioned it. I need to know what and I need to know how, because once I do, then I have all the leverage I need."
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What, seek to make contact with said entity, if possible, and tell it Zeus has been a bad little boy? :D Somehow, I don't see that working.

He's got a logical plan of attack there... Assuming his initial assumption is true. I suppose we'll see soon whether it is. But there's still the issue that whatever primordial entity of the sky, or storms, or whatever, that Zeus is maybe-bonded to, may not even be capable of conscious thought? After all, is Tartarus still able to think in his current state?
 
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Chojin Patriarch said:
Meanwhile, I bet Zagreus is sizing up Canis like a hunter gauging prey. 'I think I could take him.'
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And I think Canis would want to take him.

Because he's a weirdo.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Well... Not much point seeking out Poseidon. I doubt he'd be any more inclined to even humour OL.
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And he's not exactly better than Zeus.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And what precautions have you taken against her simply hexing you and sending you on your way?
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I'm betting that's why Canis is there.

As a New God he's resistant to magic, so Paul can throw him at her and while he's getting killed, Paul can leave.

If things go well, then he'll have the help of a magic goddess.

If things don't go well, then a horrible person dies.

Either way, the world is a better place.

Chojin Patriarch said:
By that logic, Poseidon probably has a similar link to Oceanus or another such progenitor.
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I think that was confirmed in this story.
 
Ngamer11 said:
Can anyone who knows who this is referring to please share with the rest of the class?
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They're going to visit Hecate, Goddess of Magic and Crossroads, to find out what being Zeus is bonded to that gives him strength. The assumption is that Hades let Zeus become king of the gods because he is stronger than him, even though he is bonded to Erebos and much stronger than the other "regular" gods if Olympus, so by the transitive power he must have bonded to someone or something strong enough to cow Hades. Once Paul finds out what or who it is and how he did it he can do a lot. Like threatening to cut the connection or convincing whatever Zeus is bonded to to force Zeus to leave Diana alone etc.
 
I can't help but think of the line in Hackers (film, 1995)

Someone: "What did you do, Paul?"

OL: "I had Zues declared dead..."
 
Old Knife said:
Jesus Christ Paul. Just find him a good match. There's no need to do this much work.
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On the other hand, I entirely agree with the principle of the thing. Zeus is clearly attempting to abuse his power here and definitely in the wrong and - while one of the main reasons OL cares is almost certainly that Diana is close to him - I can definitely understand not wanting to just do the mercenary thing of immediately resolving it by throwing another person (even a willing person) at him out of spite for the fact Zeus should not be doing this in the first place, because it's a gigantic dick move.

And that's not even getting to the fact that super-long term it may create even more work if OL has to continually solve this problem for Zeus every hundred years or so because Zeus isn't told in no uncertain terms to back the fuck up.
 
Darko said:
Getting rid of him or at least just getting the means to get rid if him is necessary to stop him.
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Call Bruce. Ask him about his contingency plans to get rid of Zeus. If he doesn't have such a plan it shows that he isn't paranoid enough.

Darko said:
Though Achilles and Solomon could have achieved some level of divinity.
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A monotheist having some level of divinity is even funnier than a king having a tattoo saying "death to kings".

Stsword said:
[A] titan, a Roman god, Greek gods, and two dead guys.
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...walks into a bar.

PepeTheFrog said:
They're going to visit Hecate, Goddess of Magic and Crossroads, to find out what being Zeus is bonded to that gives him strength
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If this was a proper Greek Mythology Legend "Man angry at god, calls on Hecate" is the point where it really goes off the rails and makes Euripides and his fellow tragedians (and his little oil flask) sit up and take notice.
 
Ouu, subvert Ares to your side by offering him a chance at total war against The Reach. We have already proved that gods can survive in space, probably enough to satisfy Ares, if not to satisfy Paul.

If the Reach kill him, no loss. Either way, that should be a decent bribe.
 
RichardWhereat said:
Ouu, subvert Ares to your side by offering him a chance at total war against The Reach. We have already proved that gods can survive in space, probably enough to satisfy Ares, if not to satisfy Paul.

If the Reach kill him, no loss. Either way, that should be a decent bribe.
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For reasons that will become apparent, cooperation with Ares will soon be...

Impractical.
 
Vaermina said:
Yup.

It's kind of sad at this point, because sometimes the bigger fish should just be a bigger fish.
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I actually like this as it provides a justification for having the Greek Gods remain a major force while still having supernatural mechanics that make the Gods depend on mortal belief for power and survival. Many urban fantasy settings with a similar premise simply take the fact that the Greek Gods are a powerful mystic force even as the Gods from non-western cultures are ignored or denigrated as minor figures. I believe that this undermines worldbuilding efforts by not recognizing that the Greek (or Roman) Gods were far from the only major manifestation of pre-Christian religious belief. There are many other Gods that once had far more worshippers or are even still worshipped by a sizeable fraction of humanity. These Gods should be highly active if human belief is treated as being supernaturally significant.

From an OOC perspective this mono-focus on the Greek Gods is understandable as a western audience or author is far more likely to be familiar with their legends. It also avoids the tricky question of cultural appropriation and the possibility of disrespecting genuine religious beliefs. The western culture associated with the Greek Gods is so predominant that no one is seriously concerned about showing it appropriate respect and the associated religion is so faded away that no one will be offended by the misuse of their mythology.
 
Ct613hulu said:
I actually like this as it provides a justification for having the Greek Gods remain a major force while still having supernatural mechanics that make the Gods depend on mortal belief for power and survival. Many urban fantasy settings with a similar premise simply take the fact that the Greek Gods are a powerful mystic force even as the Gods from non-western cultures are ignored or denigrated as minor figures. I believe that this undermines worldbuilding efforts by not recognizing that the Greek (or Roman) Gods were far from the only major manifestation of pre-Christian religious belief. There are many other Gods that once had far more worshippers or are even still worshipped by a sizeable fraction of humanity. These Gods should be highly active if human belief is treated as being supernaturally significant.

From an OOC perspective this mono-focus on the Greek Gods is understandable as a western audience or author is far more likely to be familiar with their legends. It also avoids the tricky question of cultural appropriation and the possibility of disrespecting genuine religious beliefs. The western culture associated with the Greek Gods is so predominant that no one is seriously concerned about showing it appropriate respect and the associated religion is so faded away that no one will be offended by the misuse of their mythology.
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Except in DC the Greek God's aren't supposed to be dependent on mortal belief for power and survival.
 
Vaermina said:
Yup.

It's kind of sad at this point, because sometimes the bigger fish should just be a bigger fish.
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The issue with is that the Greek gods aren't a bigger fish, their a fish in an infinite ocean. There's no definite and solid scale in DC as nature of the comic. How does Nabu/Klarion rate against an Olympian? Does worship increase them or nah? If worship is a factor then can Paul just make a phone call to Mammon and have him kick Zeus in the teeth or is there something governing inter pantheon relations? Also most importantly, where does the Ophidian come into this?

The bigger fish thing only works when you know how big yourself and the other fish are, otherwise everyone's game.
 
Vaermina said:
Except in DC the Greek God's aren't supposed to be dependent on mortal belief for power and survival.
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I know that we don't get exact details, but my understanding was the human belief helped the Gods develop from the Dream, maintain their integrity as a magical construct, and grow in power.
 
Ct613hulu said:
I know that we don't get exact details, but my understanding was the human belief helped the Gods develop from the Dream, maintain their integrity as a magical construct, and grow in power.
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As shown in one comic not having it can also starve them. I'm not actually sure which one but I've seen a few panels about it before.
 
There is a really great scene in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series where Bastet is shown living as a withered figure due her lack of worship and then is able to briefly restore her divine appearance by feeding from the worship provided by a child who looks at a cat and sees a goddess. His Thessaly series also has some Death Gods who seek to compensate for their lack of worship by feeding on human souls. I believe that these examples can serve as a basic guide to how the Gods depend on something that humans provide.
 
Ct613hulu said:
I know that we don't get exact details, but my understanding was the human belief helped the Gods develop from the Dream, maintain their integrity as a magical construct, and grow in power.
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As per this fic the Star Conquerors mother stars are also physical manifestations of belief by the little mind controlling starfish.

Anyways Zeus is not a big fish, the only reason his pantheon is relevant to the DC universe is only because of the memetic status of Greece gods and the European narrow focus of the western media we consume.

By their own argued rules and weight of raw numbers of historic and current believers Zeus and his pantheon are less than toilet paper to the gods of Asia or the Abrahamic theurgy kerfuffle, they are used in media because they are inherently entirely irrelevant just like the Norse mythos, their religion is dead and they have no significance thus its OK to put them in comics and media.

I think the best way to interpret this in universe is that Greek mythology is so starved for relevance that they are barely above powerful mortal sorcerers and they interact with mortals whenever they are able to because they literally need every single scrab of notice they can scrape off the floor. The creatures of other more powerful religions only interact with mortals out of boredom or duty, not because they have to.

-----

To go back to the tangent being discussed, Paul is being entirely correct when he says most gods are jumped up elementals, gods worth their salt cannot be used in comics without risking having a noticeable fraction of the human population flip their shit, thus the only ones that will ever show up enough to be identificable characters are elementals like Zeus because Superman cannot throw down and win a fight against Jesus Christ, but he can certainly beat the absolute shit out of Zeus.
 
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