Pax's Alternate History Snippet repository.

[ATP]

Yeah, and thats why the area has an anamolously high mercury content.

Like, so the Tomb, is both an important archaeological find here, but its also an important environmental lesson as well in terms of preservation, everyone in the cadre and leadership are old enough to have lived through Sinclair publishing the Jungle, the meat packing industry and other scandals so really what this sets up for in environmental protection is heavy metals shouldn't be dumped in the waterways we need to farm and support agriculture with, dispose of industrial byproducts effectively, and we'll see these topics in a few separate sections as well as the public impact of discovering the tomb across future sections.

For the public at large the discovery of the tomb is oh wow thats great, for leadership its 'oh shit mercury is toxic we're gonna have to be careful' you can't do large volumes of construction because it risks volatilizing the mercury and people understood that by 1920

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Yes,they do not have technology to dig it safely,i doubt if even now it is possible.
Fun thing is - Tomb supposed to have many traps like crossbows waiting for thiefs,and all they must arleady malfunction - but what supposed to save Emperor life,mercury,still made his treasures safe from thieves....

 

[Imperator Pax]

Yes,they do not have technology to dig it safely,i doubt if even now it is possible.
Fun thing is - Tomb supposed to have many traps like crossbows waiting for thiefs,and all they must arleady malfunction - but what supposed to save Emperor life,mercury,still made his treasures safe from thieves....

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The technology to do it today, its just ball expensive, and would take like the US Army Corp of Engineers years to do it properly and even if the technology and expertise weren't expensive, its a world heritage site on a city scale the historical loss risk of damage would be incalculable So I very much doubt exploration of the site will ever be expanded to just very incremental small scale arhcaeological teams and even then the enviromental engineering is going to have large safety requirements for the work.

 

[ATP]

The technology to do it today, its just ball expensive, and would take like the US Army Corp of Engineers years to do it properly and even if the technology and expertise weren't expensive, its a world heritage site on a city scale the historical loss risk of damage would be incalculable So I very much doubt exploration of the site will ever be expanded to just very incremental small scale arhcaeological teams and even then the enviromental engineering is going to have large safety requirements for the work.

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That.Or,they would made some very good radar to locate where main chamber is,drill there,and send robots to made pictures.

 

[Imperator Pax]

September 1920
Four months earlier the Bolsheviks had spilled over the old tsarist borders and announced a Socialist Republic for Persia. It was a narrow strip of north west persia on the Caspian ... a joke really... but Lloyd George wasn't really thinking of Persia so much as a potential soviet threat to India. India was enough to consider for the English attempting to form defacto recognition of Lenin's bandits sitting in Moscow. Carrot and Stick, carrot such that maybe it'd take pressure off of the Jewel in the Crown of Empire.

"The Teasury wants the Russians," The Bolsheviks, but quite frankly Bert didn't care about the distinction, a lot of people didn't. "To take responsibility for the debts taken on. Lenin's guy says well the pre war ones maybe," ... and the Treasury was pushing back that the war time debts included industry that the soviets were now using so that Moscow was on the hook for those too ... and it went on, "Well the Foreign office wants them out of Persia, and it wants recognition of the borders more or less as is so for the west that means the Brest Litovsk borders."

Cullen nodded, accepting that all of this was well beyond their own control, beyond any efforts they could make here, "And the Poles?"

"That's the good news, after having them," The bolsheviks, "thrown back from Warsaw the Foreign Service" who cared less about the money / debt issues, "is digging in its heels on the border issue. I suspect it won't amount to anything until we see something change on that front talks wise."

The defining aspect was of the renewed great game... at least so far as British Foreign Policy went... but with Britain unwilling to enter the fray itself, they would have been better off frontloading the western front, the anti-bolshevik forces with weapons taken from a disarmed Germany since it seemed clear that Trotsky's red bandits could only manage one thrust at a time and that containment might be viable.

The City of London, and the Treasury seemed entirely too self congratulatory that Moscow wanted to talk about trade treaties at this stage, even if that did as a compromise seem to be a way to convince a status or set of agreements to solidify in the east. A modus vivendi in the language of diplomacy.

"I suppose we shouldn't be surprised," Allen remarked finally drumming his fingers. Nothing they could do he supposed, "Alright moving on," Bert looked like he wanted to protest, but they had things that needed to be settled. Four years of Industrial war had raised them up, and two more years on top of that helped stabilize things after all that rapid growth, but there was still a lot to do. There would he suspected always be something to do, but steel was the building block of matters critical to industrial modernity... but there was also the possibility of being bogged down on talk of education, of army organization, of higher education within the army.

Part of that was cadre politics. The political changes of the war, and reaction to the war had worried some of the remaining old guard. That seemed to be taking shape in the interest of expanding cadre industries in the west of the province and into the Gansu corridor all the way to Xinjiang. Those discussions needed to be addressed, were more important to local matters than far away moscow, or the land of the Shah for that matter.

"It baffles me so," Bert agreed finally changing tracks, "The British take such an issue with, or the Europeans in general, with holding to the eight hour day. It works fine for us."

"The problem is we did it for safety reasons, they bristle because they see it as a demand imposed from down on the floor." Cullen muttered, "Its not the same thing." The adoption of the eight hour day had stemmed originally from coal concerns, but it also applied to rail workers because a locomotive was a piece of heavy equipment. "Way they look at it, a man says I need to work eight hours, he thinks he's being lazy, which ain't always the case. Eight hours of monotonous duldrum labor causes a man to make mistakes,"

--
Iseburo's letter was accompanied by details of the restructuring of the trans Siberian railway. It was a reversing of polarity on the assembly. The reconstruction of the line, and its overhaul would insure that in the event of a Japanese Conflict, preferably if a fight came an Anglo-AMerican-Japanese conflict with the Bolsheviks that troops would be able to deploy from both the Korean peninsula, and Vladivostok and be rapidly shuttled across to the yards and spaces of trans-baikal.

Geography though was the determining facet... or limiting factor really. The retreat from Omsk hadentailed the comprehensive annhilation of the old Tsarist line eithereastwards or any attempts to link into the Kazakh steppes. There were no connections into either, or into the Bolshevik region.

"British eight inchers?"

"Apparently they were coastal defense guns," He replied to the question from Sam.

Griswold nodded thoughtful, "That makes sense... and after that landing in Persia by the reds there were talks about coastal artillery in Kirghiz, big as the lake is I can understand Iseburo digging in his defenses around the fortifications. It took me by surprise is all."

In British service the 8 inch had been superseded by 9.2 inch guns for coastal defense, and the Japanese production of the eight inch had involved modernization with a 45caliber model of domestic production. This was the Type 41 that Iseburo was anchoring his defensive line. It was an inexpensive solution, looked good for the papers back home, and had the advantage that the Bolsheviks were largely exhausted... never mind the current spanking the Poles had handed them in the west. It looked good back home in the papers and it was cheaper which would help with the diet.

Iseburo could rely on a strong coalition to support his spending program of investment, and despite talks about opening trade with the British, neither the welsh wizard, the French or the states had extended legal recognition of the bolsheviks in Moscow. Japan would not be the first... and indeed this was to be formative in policy for years down the road. In the interim, the talk of coastal artillery brought up other matters.

"We could invite Lewis." He had been in the coastal artillery back home before everything.

The war, for Europe and the States part in it was over. Isaac was out of the army, and he had the requisite experience with the coastal artillery. "I can extend the invitation again," But Allen was skeptical that it would yield results, "And if not get him to come consider if he might have suggestions." With downsizing chances were there were people from the states, probably from England that could be brought over to Kirghiz, or middle America as well. That would be good for any of the committees in question... but the notion that Lewis would sail for Middle America was dubious at best. It might happen, but Lewis wasn't precisely chasing the dollar and and nor did he have the investment in the growing ... state building ambitions that Powell seemed to be expressing with the movement down there. "We might also try and put him where he and Edenborn can do in foundation work."

"Yeah I heard Phineas is busy, and then elections are coming up as well, so we wouldn't likely get a response from the states before they vote." And they would have their own elections to oversee as well.

"There is something else, there. If Isaac won't come to us, which fine," Griswold frowned at Sam's comment, but Waite continued, "See if he'll go down to Middle America, Powell needs a steady hand there and if he can get artillery and everything else it might do everyone some good. Edenborn would probably like that too." He paused, now one precisely brought up Edenborn's age, but the moment passed between the men present, "And one more thing, while we move on, here." Waite handed over the sheets of paper.

"What's this then?"

"Its a graph," He could see that of course, "We've been pulling boys in from the farm, young folks in general, and city has a lot of needs, you know. Now in west Zhili that was one thing. There were a lot of people there, but we built the rail lines, and such but that front page is Xian since we've been here." The tables were tax revenues and that would have been important, but it was a question of productivity." The war was over now, and there were the signs of an expected decline, but,"

"Its stabilizing?"

"Yeah, we might even see growth next year. Kirghiz is good for us, lets us ease off the pressure safe like, and if we're lucky in two years next time we do elections the domestic demand for goods will mean the economy will be growing healthy." People living in the city working normal jobs, hourly jobs for wages had money in their pocket, bought things and spent that money.

 

[ATP]

After kicking soviets in 1920 near Warsaw we defeated them later on Niemen river,and both France and USA promised war materials if we finish them off.With Wrangel help,we could do so.
Sadly,all our politician thought,that West would later sell us to White Russia,but never to commies.So,we made peace with reds.

In 1945 they gave us to commies for free.

Well,if we finish lenin then,even if white take over Poland,it still would be better then OTL.

Coastal artillery - they could buy a lot ofturrets from old battleships going to scrap yards,and even more when Washington Treaty kill those built recently.
Just choose one caliber,and buy it.Even if they buy only from Jappan,it should be at least 20 turrets with 305mm guns.

 

[Faralis]

In 1945 they gave us to commies for free.

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TBF Churchill really tried to make Stalin to follow the treaty about free elections in Poland, but he knew he couldn't do anything about because even after Stalin frigging arrested the entire negotiating team he personally invited to Moscow, the US did absolutely nothing about it, and that was the only card the Allies could play, the nuclear scare... sadly Poland was an unwilling ( mostly the first ) victim of the future Cold War. Followed pretty fast by all the rest of the Soviet "Liberated" countries...

 

[Imperator Pax]

and not to beat a dead horse, but between truman not being ready / prepared to be president, and patton's unfortunate car accident US leadership was woefully unprepared to do anything after FDR being in charge for so long, and Ike and Marshal weren't going to start dictating what should be foreign policy

 

[ATP]

TBF Churchill really tried to make Stalin to follow the treaty about free elections in Poland, but he knew he couldn't do anything about because even after Stalin frigging arrested the entire negotiating team he personally invited to Moscow, the US did absolutely nothing about it, and that was the only card the Allies could play, the nuclear scare... sadly Poland was an unwilling ( mostly the first ) victim of the future Cold War. Followed pretty fast by all the rest of the Soviet "Liberated" countries...

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Yes,Churchill tried,yet USA missed their opportunity to become sole world superpower.They should use Poland as pretext to destroy soviets,not becouse of justice or morality,but to take over the world as good guys who destroyed bad germans,japaneese,and soviets.

Which would be true,soviets were worst then germans.

and not to beat a dead horse, but between truman not being ready / prepared to be president, and patton's unfortunate car accident US leadership was woefully unprepared to do anything after FDR being in charge for so long, and Ike and Marshal weren't going to start dictating what should be foreign policy

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Yes,USA leaders were either useful idiots,or agents ,at least Democrats.That is why they missed their chance to become sole world superpower fast and cheaply.Few A bombs,and soviet manufacturies and main refineries cease to exist.If they kill soviet leaders,state would simply dissolve.

And almost paid for that,when soviets get both H bombs and missilies - they really wonted conqer entire world,and only reason why they do not burned world when their econoy fall was,that soviet leaders then was not longer belivers.

Lenin,Sralin,Kruszczow and even Andropow - if they were faced with dilemma what to do - burn world and die,or let sovet system fall,would burn world.Starting with USA.

Of course,humanity would survive,even civilization - but not in Europe,Asia or North America.

 

[Imperator Pax]

November 1920
The wide drafting desks were filled with papers and men were busy scrutinizing them. There were newspapers, telegrams, letters, and documents harvested threshed and distributed to different sections. The machines clattered, but the truth was the states were easy to predict how things would be. The expectation was the Irish machine and lobbies were going to stay home or turn out for Harding... the truth was most of the national lobbies who had sided with the Virginian were likely to pivot on for Harding. Part of that was Wilson had seemed to think he'd somehow earned a third term and had been angling to run even though the party apparatus had made clear that they weren't going to nominate him.

"They're going to broadcast the election returns by radio."

"So are we," Waite replied, "Its just we don't have the whole continent to ourselves," Never you mind Canada or Mexico, of course. Now wasn't the time for semantics. "More realistically the states have more going off of this."

Allen settled for staring out the wrought iron great window overlooking the yard. The cadre lacked its full allotted numbers. Yan had published his iteration of the constitution and was at home in his province overseeing his own elections of the lower assembly there... the broader Cadre was for the majority here in Xian... but still not everyone could be here.

Some had rotated overseas but it created problems for moving forward if they didn't find some way to contend with issues of the legislature. They would need to seat membership... the irony was the solution was to be one they hadn't previously considered up until things shifted at a national level...for tonight though it was about the election of the lower house of the legislature.

The matter of national elections called by Duan in the summer of 1919... and next year they would become a contentious problem as in theory a new series of elections should have been on the horizon. The lower house of the provincial assembly were to sit two years, a position set down based off of the US House of Representatives. There would be later discussions that the lower house needed a slightly longer term... and when the time came to seat a North Chinese lower assembly it would be expanded to a four year term for representatives drawn from each of the provinces.

In November of 1920 though despite that the lower houses of Tibet, Qinghai, Gansu, Xinjiang Shansi, and Shensi were meeting most of the focus was here in Xian. Apportionment for the separate provinces was less important in this election than it would be in later ones. With seven assemblies, including one representing Western Zhili's original area of operations including Zhengzhou, the local governments weren't competing with one another for limited slots. Later though with fixed terms, and a limited number of slots the legislature's constituency would need to be adjusted to facilitate a compromise between the states.

"Percy asked what happens when we seat a bunch of officers."

Allen half turned, "Did he?"

"Well unlike with the cadre the representatives don't have a proxy mechanism." that was admittedly by design. It was an elected assembly the intention was to make sure the representatives actually represented and participated in the government they were enjoined. The intention was to prevent the lower house's memberships from being distracted by offices in Peking. At its fundamental basis Officership was a profession, and there were professional responsibilities... but on the other hand. "there are no grounds to stop them from them running for election. I admit it runs into the issue of policy making questions." George started to mull, and then fell silent as the speaker crackled to start talking about tabulated results from the polls.

The expectation of opening the automotive plant came with the expectation of expanding steel production. Steel was bulky, and while they could have imported it from the states, there was little reason to given war time production. That would keep men on the rolls and that would shape the electorate.

It hadn't been discussed in such terms but some of the middle management were smart enough to nose around asking about with the war over if Britain wasn't paying what had been absurd prices pre war for pig iron and everything else what was going to happen. The answer was that while the profits made to export sales would go away the work force would be needed for other projects.

The cadre as a business institution, as the management side of things had plans for new mines, for the railways, but much of the public discussion on the latter had been the inter urbans and talk of public housing for workers. Housing which was to require further electrical lighting, heating, and other modern amenities. Electrical works meant demand for those skills.

Then there was water management.

In the wealth of nations Smith had written, Smith having gone on to be a tax collector in Scotland's port, that there were public goods that were best provided by the organization of the state even if it was nominally at cost. If you stopped a man from getting sick though, if you in placed a quarantine and the spread of disease then while it was difficult to fathom what money was saved you had surely prevented loss.

About half of Xian's population were industrial workers and election day had warranted special planning to insure that those who were eligible to vote went out and fulfilled that civic obligation... but Percy's question did raise up other matters.

"Is Percy really the one asking though?"

"You really think Alston gives a good god damn who gets elected?"

Bill's reply was a fair point. The minister for George the Fifth to China was less likely to care than what Jordan or Reinsch would have if this had been four years previous. "Can you imagine if this had been where we were in1914."

It wasn't though, but he could imagine all the same. "The professor would probably be trying to read us the riot act."

The men laughed. The night went on. The conversation left the British and their opinions to mostly focus on the duties allocated under the constitution for the house of representatives. It would be easier for officers of the bureaus, the Guard, or the reserves to serve as representatives, the business over the summer demonstrated that there were plenty of things that the first division could be called out for as Waite put it that were of 'national importance'.

'National Importance' the words were missed for their significance, for what they represented to change and organization as Peking's importance dimmed, and northern eyes narrowed at their southern provincial neighbors.
--
Notes: So, I have more or less configured 1921 to open with its prologue in March the British Affair and then from there fudge the travel times if necessary to then have1921 run until the fall. The opening of the Washington Naval Conference isn't likely to be covered in particular detail. Indeed 21 is going to be relatively short all things considered, before we move into '22 and 23, what we will see in 21 is the delegating of anti-bandit operations against Sichuan province which is largely organizational

 

[ATP]

Thanks ! could your China use battleship massacre in Washington to buy one or two? even as mobile batteries they would still be great help - both to repel invasion,and use on big rivers to provide fire support.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Thanks ! could your China use battleship massacre in Washington to buy one or two? even as mobile batteries they would still be great help - both to repel invasion,and use on big rivers to provide fire support.

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Probably not from the US Hughes was the chief architect of the WNT it was his baby and selling off the US guns would have been subject to the State Department's approval which Hughes would almost certainly veto

British 8 inch gun designs though which have already been mentioned will probably be the defacto early railway gun during the twenties and into the early thirties, and probably during that time something like the BL 15 Mk1 guns from Britain which have an established reputation versus rushing to a 16 in US design which would be subject to state department approval and probably wouldn't be available commercially until probably the expiration of the arms embargo, but the Mk1 could be circumvented by orders going to White controlled Russia in basically Central Asia and then built up from there on the frontier, and then emplaced on railway cars as carriage guns and used with railway guns in the mid 20s.

 

[ATP]

Probably not from the US Hughes was the chief architect of the WNT it was his baby and selling off the US guns would have been subject to the State Department's approval which Hughes would almost certainly veto

British 8 inch gun designs though which have already been mentioned will probably be the defacto early railway gun during the twenties and into the early thirties, and probably during that time something like the BL 15 Mk1 guns from Britain which have an established reputation versus rushing to a 16 in US design which would be subject to state department approval and probably wouldn't be available commercially until probably the expiration of the arms embargo, but the Mk1 could be circumvented by orders going to White controlled Russia in basically Central Asia and then built up from there on the frontier, and then emplaced on railway cars as carriage guns and used with railway guns in the mid 20s.

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Brits - i forget,that they scrapped many battleships and battlecruisers with 343mm guns.Buy them - bot guns for coastal batteries,and few battleships.Brits need money,so they should not take much from your China.

 

[Imperator Pax]

November 1920
The day following the election opened like any other. Men got up, men went to work, the army did the morning run, and pt regimens to maintain readiness and discipline was maintained. It was the army that was the main thrust of the assembled cadre and of course discussions of laws shaping it. The National Guard had an allocated, statutory, paper strength of a hundred thousand... and from the system that Yan had laid out his home province of Shansi could have met that by itself.

... which meant most likely maybe not the first thing, but that at some point there would be talks of an army appropriations bill to have a vote for raising it. "If our numbers are right Shansi sits at about fifteen million people." But it was the prospect of the number that was the matter. Shansi had been allocated a division the 4th​ in recognition of the situation with the hundred thousand man volume. On paper that pool was partially consumed by the 2nd​ Division for Shensi and the other three divisions of the Guards and Reserves.

The consensus was not to make the mistake of being unprepared like back home had been. The states had been complacent, comfortable with the great moats that protected the continent from unwanted foreign entanglements, and there needed to be a vigorous campaign of being prepared so five and five divisions. "Any expansion will have to be brigades." That was the acceptable, legal route to addressing man power.

No one objected to Waite's point on the matter. Dawes nodded, "He's right at this point any additional allocation would require us not just to promote officers it would be wasteful, in other ways."

Officially the main part of that was the production of arms, and the integration of new small arms from the European conflict or other developments there of. Unofficially a brigade entailed a much larger complement of red legs and engineers so approving them meant specialists as those combined arms units took shape. "If we ever need to do a call up it would help having more officers, you saw that mess with the states when they spun up." A man down the table remarked. "Have a bunch of reserve officers from the Corp," The Corp of Engineers, "If it drops into the pot we can recall those boys for an emergency to manage organizing the rest of the deployment as we on load to move the guard."

The idea was simpler than that... the truth was there were statutory limits on force size, but those limits had been written off of defined terms. That was ultimately the problem so to speak with the writing the laws. The Army was limited to a set number of divisions... which Percy was right in predicting that would expand just as the army had, but the Guard needed more men on paper than the active component, "If things were to drop into the pot we'd need the officers to stand up new units, you saw how the states did."

"Right, Captains became Colonels basically overnight." After spending years decades even as lieutenants in the reserves back home. That had been the scale of modern war, war in Europe. "Which is why I want to expand the war colleges as well." Dawes declared, "It'll insure we have officers in professional duties and who can be rotated to command positions but who will be largely reservists. Men that can work in industry and help us expand ... and when things go to hell we can call the numbers and ask for volunteers."

Waite nodded as the noise came back to more manageable numbers, "The Qing," He began starting to turn the subject from the army to the population at large, "made attempts to introduce compulsory education more than once, General Tso tried," Which hadn't gone anywhere before the Mule had died," and then there were the attempts in 1907," That had gone into legal effect before the Cadre had formed, "but had no real stick to it."

The Qing had for all protestations, and grand ceremony hadn't been a powerful central government... the mountains were high and the emperor was far away. The Ming hadn't been any better, the Mongols before them seemed to have had the same records. Peking's bureaucracy simply could not effect sustained programs from afar, and viceroys and legates or whatever title one wished to call appointed officials just didn't have the resources because of the state of the national treasury because of the decrepit finances to manage.

Waite was right, compulsory education had to take place. The problem was the expansion of the schools would take time. "Hodges, you want to say something down there?" Allen found himself asking craning his head towards the foot the table.

"I find it, sir, that it is in my interest to volunteer for Tibet," The older heavier set man declared, "I'm not much good to the cadre as a whole," They had talked about this Hodges had been talking about giving up his position, and the retirement wasn't so much a matter of easing him into. "That perhaps it would be best that I step away in the near future from this body, and focus on more regional matters there."

It wasn't a new principle. It was a natural outgrowth of how the cadre had done business. A bicameral, a two house system was natural. They had just overseen the elections of the lower house, and it was entirely natural that there would be senatorial bodies to complement the chamber. Simply put it made much more sense to appoint a smaller cadre that could then cooperate, and direct efforts across the broader 'confederation'.

The most obvious matter was invariably the inevitable distinction of provincial affairs to a greater interprovincial arrangement. Yan Xishan had been admitted to the cadre, but was also dujun of a province. Did that imply, in a common law sense establish precedent, that governors of provinces should be on the cadres or would that represent a confusion of jurisdictional powers. "Should we even consider that," One man remarked, as still other voices added in.

"He's right there isn't a supreme court." The clamor built. "We haven't had much need for lawyers at all." "This is not the states,"

Which was of course that in 1920 even after the elections held the day prior the six and change provinces, including western Zhili, considered the provinces largely still a part of a broader Beiyang lead Peking based unified Chinese state. A state that if it still existed was in the process of unravelling and was coming apart whichwould force a return to look at these questions, and still others as Northern China evaluated its political options based on both external considerations as well as domestic political opinions.

--
Notes: This is short, computer problems mulched the last half of this, the next November segment and the conclusion segment (december 1920) so I'm gonna have to rewrite those next week, which will be fun. Then after that we will proceed into1921

 

[ATP]

Schools and reserve officers - good idea,if you have only uneducated peasants,then they would be good only as cannon fodder,or,at best,partisants.

Tibet - according to what i read,it was really remote place,and monks ruling there was very far from enlinghtened rulers.
And,maybe you manage to catch yeti! I think it could existed then,althought by now chineese probably eat last one long ago.

 

[Imperator Pax]

Schools and reserve officers - good idea,if you have only uneducated peasants,then they would be good only as cannon fodder,or,at best,partisants.

Tibet - according to what i read,it was really remote place,and monks ruling there was very far from enlinghtened rulers.
And,maybe you manage to catch yeti! I think it could existed then,althought by now chineese probably eat last one long ago.

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Thats the thing here in early 1900 Lhasa is a predominantly Han merchant town, the cadre is predominantly based around the rail spur there, and thus the textiles and managing of the agricultural market there. The monastaries particularly in western tibet don't really factor in because Tibet by chinese standards of the period is a tiny backwater relative to Shensi and Shansi and both of those are relatively small compared to Szechwan ~1910

 

[Unik]

I'm still trying to understand the fact that a foreign company governs a province. How does the central government view them? Did the cadre just find a Chinese man to be a governor in name? How are the people in their territory view them?

 

[Imperator Pax]

I'm still trying to understand the fact that a foreign company governs a province. How does the central government view them? Did the cadre just find a Chinese man to be a governor in name? How are the people in their territory view them?

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The problem is there basically is not an authoritative central government in this period.

In 1914 the Cadre got away with running its own militia because of being friends with Yuan Shikai who was head of state at the time, and his successor Duan basically allowed the cadre to assume adminstrative roles over the western provinces in exchange for them collecting taxes on Peking's behalf. Yan is still the recognized Beiyang confirmed governor of Shansi, but Duan and his cabinet effectively tax farmed out the western regions filling the role of Dujun (military governor) with the company. He gets paid, the north china based government doesn't care because as a clique all of the leadership is connected back to Yuan Shikai so there is a broader network of social interaction.

At a local provincial level, the cadre's popular support stems from being the party of law and order and economic investment, the first mostly from dealing with bandits (particularly with actions in 1914), but also by stocking a growing bureaucracy and managing a government that actually is seen to be governing and addressing local problems.

 

[ATP]

The problem is there basically is not an authoritative central government in this period.

In 1914 the Cadre got away with running its own militia because of being friends with Yuan Shikai who was head of state at the time, and his successor Duan basically allowed the cadre to assume adminstrative roles over the western provinces in exchange for them collecting taxes on Peking's behalf. Yan is still the recognized Beiyang confirmed governor of Shansi, but Duan and his cabinet effectively tax farmed out the western regions filling the role of Dujun (military governor) with the company. He gets paid, the north china based government doesn't care because as a clique all of the leadership is connected back to Yuan Shikai so there is a broader network of social interaction.

At a local provincial level, the cadre's popular support stems from being the party of law and order and economic investment, the first mostly from dealing with bandits (particularly with actions in 1914), but also by stocking a growing bureaucracy and managing a government that actually is seen to be governing and addressing local problems.

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That.People ruled by corrupted or unefiicent beaurocrats usually do not care,when somebody competent take over.
Becouse,common people want safety,order,and local rights - not some ideals like Liberte,Egalite and all that jazz.

 

[Faralis]

That.People ruled by corrupted or unefiicent beaurocrats usually do not care,when somebody competent take over.
Becouse,common people want safety,order,and local rights - not some ideals like Liberte,Egalite and all that jazz.

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Or in other words, freedom and equality are great... if you have them with peace and enough food.

 

[ATP]

Or in other words, freedom and equality are great... if you have them with peace and enough food.

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Yup.It would not help you in,let say,Somalia.

 

[Imperator Pax]

November 1920
Allen looked over the report tallying the end of the fiscal year; this wasn't the final version but it was close enough for a feel. Bai Lang's rebellion had swelled Xian to two million people, some had with security restored melted back to their home villages... but then the war had come to Europe and the city had grown again. Xian's steel mill now turned to the production of skyscrapers as part of an urban development program... made possible because the war was over and the demand for steel had receded from the old world. They could do that now, and more importantly they could tell people about it and make it happen rather than a nebulous time frame.

The project objective was to furnish public housing similar to what the English had been doing to clean up London during Victoria's reign, but in this case with the aim of just addressing the surge in population so as to avoid a health crisis. The twenty storey blocks mostly aimed at young people though... much of the population growth pushed in were young people looking for urban jobs and while company townships were still planned the city's size meant if they weren't on top of this housing demand would outstrip supply. They had to stay on top of it, that meant the cadre needed to be there, and be seen involved.

Hence recommendations for establishing an Urban Housing Authority sub committee to attempt to avoid having anything approaching a 'how the other half lives' problem. This was a modern problem, and a modern urban problem since most people were used to living in multi generational households, and that went hand in hand with if you brought second and third sons in from off the farm and they started making money and could sustain a family from cash wages they wanted to get married. Thereby dormitory housing had immediately struck out as a problem in discussions. It was one thing for soldiers in dormitory housing, the general consensus was the men liked barracks given the electric lightning and modern amenities.

There was another argument that ...maybe not this coming year, but whether or not the reserve divisions, the Guard shouldn't be allocated an additional engineering company with security attachments. They wouldn't be mechanized of course, but perhaps 2nd​ Division could have a trial program to test the idea.

On its surface the two matters were seemingly unrelated. Only on the surface, since what he expected would happen is that 2nd​, and 4th​ would get their extra companies of Engineers to their battalions , maybe not this year, may not next but then Yan would start tasking out the battalion engineers for the outreach work. That was fine, if he would just come out and say that, but there were complaints about the budget already.

Jun was always quick to insist that proper government built infrastructure, and it was hard to argue with that given the number of people crowded into everywhere. Flood, and fire were catastrophically dangerous. So those engineers and the mechanization was a necessity at least in the long run. Reinsch wouldn't have cared, might have even so far actively disapproved, for how much weight they put on gray backs', but the professor was gone now.

"I don't think its really all that bad," Waite declared, "Oh sure I know it looks bad, but from a tax base perspective I think once things settle out we should be able to manage well enough." He leaned back in the chair, "Its been five years, five pretty decent years." He drawled smug and content as the cat who'd caught the canary.

Which was true, the war had brought demand for their industrial goods at a volume that would have been impossible to consider before the cutting in Europe had started. That money coming in had meant a lot, Hodges was in Tibet he had taken the morning train outbound to the Lake, and was probably minding the battalion waiting to ship to Lhasa for its rotation. They should all be there by Friday. That was again, something that the railway made possible. "The expansion of the rail network," the great achievement of the 19th​ century, its advent or at least proliferation insures the means by which that we can move both goods and people in peace, as well as in response to crisis." Timetables that made the modern world go round.

Not war, no one missed the man had had to purposefully avoid saying the phrase war. He wasn't wrong though... flood or need to distribute grain you called up the guard and they were responsible for handling things. Another duty men in gray uniforms shouldered.

Reinsch had rarely ever referred to them as gray backs. It simply hadn't been the professor's manner even when he'd complained about the spending on the army... and the truth was the legations might have cared more if not for the war in Europe, but being able to sell goods to Britain, and Japan had funded industries that that reduced their overhead costs.

In the present day, with the elections tabulated, they had received congratulations from the legation in Tietsin, from Alston and Crane as well as a message from the Japanese that had come in slightly later... that likely had been dispatched from the office of Prime Minister Hara or his foreign minister. They were nice polite sentiments all of course. Crane, Allen suspected was the most genuine of the lot, Alston and Hara were more concerned with securing the front with the Bolsheviks but they were telegrams all the same.

The niceties mattered though. Reinsch had always moderated his language, even on the times when it was clear that he thought of his post more as an excuse to tour and vacation than other matters. The professor had meant well, but it was also clear that he didn't fully grasp reality of the situation...John Jordan had had the opposite problem. He had had that chair so long it was a wonder they hadn't buried him in it... and the problems there had really started after his sabbatical.

Alston was still trying to address those differences, of Jordan's age catching up with him while he still held the legation together... and deal with MacKinder and the realities of the great mess the Bolsheviks had made of the Tsar's empire.

"The elections are settled, we'll seat those men in the new year," That would theoretically enough time to brief them on the goings on draw up and distribute explanations of responsibility to the offices to which they were tobe sworn in to.

"Crane," Another man spoke up interrupting the speaker, "Won't be with us much longer with Harding elected, he won't be in the office," He meaning Harding, "Until spring," March, "But he'll probably find someone else to replace Crane."

The shift in topic twisted the room up, but Allen was hard pressed to not recognize he was right. Crane had replaced Reinsch because the latter had decided to make a bid for office back home... a bid failed. Something that he was silently glad for, Reinsch might have been a problem in the senate with how he viewed the idea of international law.... "You're not wrong," Which was unfortunate Allen supposed, Crane was a good man, he would have been helpful, well meaning, "But that's for next year," and the truth was Harding would not as it happened stay in office all that long.
--
Notes: Anyway this is a rewritten abridged segment computer trouble last week mulched this, but this is reflective of the changing post war political dynamics. Crane isn't ambassador to China for very long, Reinsch is not longer ambassador, Alston is in replacing Jordan finally and of course here, the Russian Civil War the big one between Whites and Reds is largely a blood stalemate, there is a much larger japanese presence there is a white holdout in central asia that the british intend to use as a buffer zone between the soviets and India which is something that both Lloyd George and the future conservative leadership are willing to subsidize on the cheap because they can get away with it... and that has knock on effects. Politically things are now very different than they were in 1914.

 

[ATP]

Brits loved to have buffer states between Moscov and India entire 19th century.Entire big game was aboit that.
But here,they could have independent Chiva and Buchara again...hopefully with less insane rulers.

Tibet - Manchur army still had horse archers there.And quite good.

Scyscrapers - good and bad,becouse there is no way to deal with fire on upper floors.

 

[Imperator Pax]

December 1920
They'd agreed to allow Percy to take the agreement to go to England besides. The truth was it was more complicated than a simple win. The visit would entail a series of pageantry that was like to be absurd. Japan's crown prince would be coming... the Anglo-Japanese alliance was at the fore, there were the Bolsheviks to consider, Lloyd George was adamant to make this about himself... and then... then there was the matter that come March Harding would be just getting sworn into the presidency... which was bound to make things complicated. The point was though, they'd told Percy they were committed to visiting this 'season', the coming social season.

Still in the time before the war all of Europe's royals had held colonecys in the others regiments, and ranks in the navies of all their cousins... and Lloyd George seemed just as adamant to return to British grandeur so they'd need to go to England, and make something of it all.

"It'll be like a world faire."

Allen nodded to Bill's comment. "Not unlike it, but not quite the same thing. Its not going to be like Chicago."

"We are a bit bigger boys now," The texan leaned against the railing watching the gray uniformed men march, "Dawes will have things in hand for us while we're off, and he doesn't expect trouble."

A trip to Europe would be a couple months minimum, they would make separate ways back some of the cadre would be head to the continental offices, and others would steam for Middle America to check in on Powell, and others would board for home. The truth was Allen suspected that there would be a further reduction in American born men as they retired.

They had already discussed that It was a topic that was impossible to avoid. The Cadre as a government body, as the upper chamber of the legislature would name officers of note from the ranks. The Cadre as a corporate body, as a business... well that was trickier. Ten years ago the cadre's hundred men had all held one percent of the shares of the work... not a pittance of money, but far far less in value than what the company's value stood at now."We'll see if he's right," Allen replied, "What about back home?" Going to England would mean seeing Daniel who was serving with military intelligence, as attaché to the embassy to the court of Saint James.

"Well Phineas is fine, he complains that Tillman left them in a lurch." Phineas as a navy man had in parochial inclination supported Wilson's idea of a great fleet for the Navy, and of course had liked Tillman's ideas to build great battleships for both the obvious reason, but also that it would consume steel as the naval appropriations would build up smaller ships in southern yards... and oil fired cruisers would need Texas oil as they moved over the waves. "The Colonel," Bill's father, "Is fine this prohibition thing doesn't sit well with either of them,"

It didn't sit well with any of the cadre. The war was over, one might have maybe made the argument that conserving alcohol made sense in the face of an invading army, but even then, that made sense for France, or England much nearer to the conflict. "Its a fool thing," Allen replied, "Well not our business what will be is the consideration of the colonel towards benevolence societies."

"Yep, not a problem I think." He whistled optimistically, "But the south has its foot in the door on Mott Street in New York," Sun had always toured the states and Canada for financial support, political support and favors too. He'd been out of the country when the revolt which would fell the old dynasty had broken out, he'd been named to the post in absentia... and nominated Yuan Shikai to take the role of president of the republic in de facto terms because Yuan had held the Beiyang Army... but Sun and for that matter others including Wellington Koo were adept at speaking in the states. "We'll have our work cutout for us."

"I know California will be tough," Allen had spent half his life in Asia now this trip to England would be work related, Good King George could mean well, but that didn't, wasn't how things worked... they needed to speak across aisles and deal with men prepared towards confining the Bolsheviks. As much as that he supported Free Trade it had to be recognized that strangling a nation by trade ... in the case of keep the Bolsheviks from buying things they couldn't make should be pretty obvious in terms of sense.

It was a pity Ford seemed to still think that Free Trade would make peace possible. That didn't mean the deals with Ford would continue or be expanded it was just there was the recognition that those differences existed. "We're going to have our work cut out for us when we come back," Dawes probably wouldn't have any trouble over the winter but there was certainly trouble brewing in the south.

As feudal as it sounded there was talk about the needed to be back for the summer campaigning season, but that would be tricky. If they left in the spring by steamer and reached London for 'season' then they'd be absent even if they took an airplane and there were reservations about air travel even if it was the future.

"Kirghiz is going to be another topic. We've got a lot of work there too,"

He nodded, "Yeah," And the truth was he'd scoffed at the time at how quickly that the British had pushed lawyers and churchmen and so on into Central Asia ... but common law, and really written law and those traditions would do the government in Kirghiz good. It was true of course that they'd been working to modernize the Qing legal code as well, but the British aid mission in central Asia was different in character.

Too much of the tsarist system had carved out exemptions and expectations from other nationalities and in a feudal society that worked of sorts, but it kept a foot too far in the past. The British were trying to press the white government there to adopt reforms to uniform things. Of course Iseburo was doing the same to the north, and in Mongolia there were similar modernizing trends the difference was that Iseburo and Ungern were quicker to coopt Buddhist clergymen to help things along.

The conversation that Bill was dancing around though had been had. The truth was Russia... the empire of the tsars the facts of the population hadn't changed. So much of the Tsarist population remained and industrial production lay tied around Petersburg and Moscow and the surrounding area... and maybe it wasn't so bad as Mackinder put it... given the facts of where the borders were but the comment 'the spaces within are so vast in population wheat cotton fuel and metals so great that it could be its own world' wasn't entirely hyperbole. They were in Central Asia talking perhaps twenty five to thirty million people evacuated of sorts from the bolshevik reach, and then there was the Japanese hold on Siberia which pushed that total to over forty million according to some figures.

--
Notes: Part of this deals with the scrunching of the timeline per se where some travel dates may need tobe fudged for certain things in the first part of 21 as a fictional year.

 

[ATP]

December 1920
They'd agreed to allow Percy to take the agreement to go to England besides. The truth was it was more complicated than a simple win. The visit would entail a series of pageantry that was like to be absurd. Japan's crown prince would be coming... the Anglo-Japanese alliance was at the fore, there were the Bolsheviks to consider, Lloyd George was adamant to make this about himself... and then... then there was the matter that come March Harding would be just getting sworn into the presidency... which was bound to make things complicated. The point was though, they'd told Percy they were committed to visiting this 'season', the coming social season.

Still in the time before the war all of Europe's royals had held colonecys in the others regiments, and ranks in the navies of all their cousins... and Lloyd George seemed just as adamant to return to British grandeur so they'd need to go to England, and make something of it all.

"It'll be like a world faire."

Allen nodded to Bill's comment. "Not unlike it, but not quite the same thing. Its not going to be like Chicago."

"We are a bit bigger boys now," The texan leaned against the railing watching the gray uniformed men march, "Dawes will have things in hand for us while we're off, and he doesn't expect trouble."

A trip to Europe would be a couple months minimum, they would make separate ways back some of the cadre would be head to the continental offices, and others would steam for Middle America to check in on Powell, and others would board for home. The truth was Allen suspected that there would be a further reduction in American born men as they retired.

They had already discussed that It was a topic that was impossible to avoid. The Cadre as a government body, as the upper chamber of the legislature would name officers of note from the ranks. The Cadre as a corporate body, as a business... well that was trickier. Ten years ago the cadre's hundred men had all held one percent of the shares of the work... not a pittance of money, but far far less in value than what the company's value stood at now."We'll see if he's right," Allen replied, "What about back home?" Going to England would mean seeing Daniel who was serving with military intelligence, as attaché to the embassy to the court of Saint James.

"Well Phineas is fine, he complains that Tillman left them in a lurch." Phineas as a navy man had in parochial inclination supported Wilson's idea of a great fleet for the Navy, and of course had liked Tillman's ideas to build great battleships for both the obvious reason, but also that it would consume steel as the naval appropriations would build up smaller ships in southern yards... and oil fired cruisers would need Texas oil as they moved over the waves. "The Colonel," Bill's father, "Is fine this prohibition thing doesn't sit well with either of them,"

It didn't sit well with any of the cadre. The war was over, one might have maybe made the argument that conserving alcohol made sense in the face of an invading army, but even then, that made sense for France, or England much nearer to the conflict. "Its a fool thing," Allen replied, "Well not our business what will be is the consideration of the colonel towards benevolence societies."

"Yep, not a problem I think." He whistled optimistically, "But the south has its foot in the door on Mott Street in New York," Sun had always toured the states and Canada for financial support, political support and favors too. He'd been out of the country when the revolt which would fell the old dynasty had broken out, he'd been named to the post in absentia... and nominated Yuan Shikai to take the role of president of the republic in de facto terms because Yuan had held the Beiyang Army... but Sun and for that matter others including Wellington Koo were adept at speaking in the states. "We'll have our work cutout for us."

"I know California will be tough," Allen had spent half his life in Asia now this trip to England would be work related, Good King George could mean well, but that didn't, wasn't how things worked... they needed to speak across aisles and deal with men prepared towards confining the Bolsheviks. As much as that he supported Free Trade it had to be recognized that strangling a nation by trade ... in the case of keep the Bolsheviks from buying things they couldn't make should be pretty obvious in terms of sense.

It was a pity Ford seemed to still think that Free Trade would make peace possible. That didn't mean the deals with Ford would continue or be expanded it was just there was the recognition that those differences existed. "We're going to have our work cut out for us when we come back," Dawes probably wouldn't have any trouble over the winter but there was certainly trouble brewing in the south.

As feudal as it sounded there was talk about the needed to be back for the summer campaigning season, but that would be tricky. If they left in the spring by steamer and reached London for 'season' then they'd be absent even if they took an airplane and there were reservations about air travel even if it was the future.

"Kirghiz is going to be another topic. We've got a lot of work there too,"

He nodded, "Yeah," And the truth was he'd scoffed at the time at how quickly that the British had pushed lawyers and churchmen and so on into Central Asia ... but common law, and really written law and those traditions would do the government in Kirghiz good. It was true of course that they'd been working to modernize the Qing legal code as well, but the British aid mission in central Asia was different in character.

Too much of the tsarist system had carved out exemptions and expectations from other nationalities and in a feudal society that worked of sorts, but it kept a foot too far in the past. The British were trying to press the white government there to adopt reforms to uniform things. Of course Iseburo was doing the same to the north, and in Mongolia there were similar modernizing trends the difference was that Iseburo and Ungern were quicker to coopt Buddhist clergymen to help things along.

The conversation that Bill was dancing around though had been had. The truth was Russia... the empire of the tsars the facts of the population hadn't changed. So much of the Tsarist population remained and industrial production lay tied around Petersburg and Moscow and the surrounding area... and maybe it wasn't so bad as Mackinder put it... given the facts of where the borders were but the comment 'the spaces within are so vast in population wheat cotton fuel and metals so great that it could be its own world' wasn't entirely hyperbole. They were in Central Asia talking perhaps twenty five to thirty million people evacuated of sorts from the bolshevik reach, and then there was the Japanese hold on Siberia which pushed that total to over forty million according to some figures.

--
Notes: Part of this deals with the scrunching of the timeline per se where some travel dates may need tobe fudged for certain things in the first part of 21 as a fictional year.

Click to shrink...

Yes,many run from Lenin genocide.In OTL many Kazach run to China or Mongolia,before Sralin genocided about 30% of population.
Those people would not want commies to rule over them,no matter what USA say after WW2.
And brits would support those states as long as they have India.

Prohibition was either madness,or anglo-saxon protestant try to keep catholic white and jews down.Becouse it made not only italian,but also irish and jewish mafias .
And it worked,till WW2.

Tillman monsters - i once made small TL,whee they were built - and,as a result,notching really changed,except bigger Bismarck sunked by G3 battlecruisers.
And less aircraft carriers built till 1941,which mean no Pearl Harbour,but attack on Philippines.

 

[Imperator Pax]

1921
Cox had won the south, save Tennessee... but the south had been his only wins in the contest, since otherwise Harding had spanked his fellow Ohioan something fierce...but Harding was not precisely an enthusiastic gain to the presidency... at least so far as the Cadre was concerned. From the base of operations in Guatemala the developing Middle American Cadre were pursuing the planed trunk and branch rail development which was coupled with an investment into telephone and telegraph lines, and a general motion across the post office duties . The real tell though would be if Powell could get manufacturing up and off the ground. That would be the real test of the junior office, and if they could do that then Powell would be free to pursue the fillibuster's dream... if not it was still worth the effort to try. Things were looking well enough that they needed to be here, more than they were needed at home.

"There is talk of a small arms commission."

"Yep," He agreed with Bill's statement. "Brownings, and Gewehrs aplenty... mortars probably," Most likely lighter artillery, three inchers to start... the truth was in spring of 21 with the Soviets mostly contained well things were looking a bit optimistic, and the bandit wars in Latin America had been ... well weren't to be predicted. They would be the MAK's White Wolf rebellion, and money and sinking capital to build industry would provide the leverage to what would come in the future. "Most of the stuff we've been more than willing to pass over in technical details to Poland and the Czechs..." stuff that the Reds couldn't effectively use. It would have been nice if Finland might have done the same but those talks were caught up in other quirks even though they had managed to reciprocate other requests. Access to the 155 guns the Finns had came to mind, but there were other factors... it would have been nice to be sure they could have shutoff Lenin's bandits from any and all trade but the British were waffling, there were talk of a trade agreement that was disgustingly close to an arrangement.

It wasn't the only thing they disliked as peace settled over at least western Europe, "From the sound of it Harding won't stop Wall Street from trading with them, but its just talk right now," Bill replied. "We won't really know until something happens."

"He'll push it off on Hughes," Which was lackadaisical handling in his opinion, but Harding, Hughes and Hoover, the 3Hs seemed not to be taking Lenin all that seriously from the sound of it... "I don't know how they'll square the Turks signing the treaty with them," With the Soviets, but that news had come out in January... which Allen figured were the first real bilateral arrangements to be concluded. "And then there are the French,"

"Is Morgan holding to see what Harding says?" Bill questioned folding the paper in his hands.

Allen shook his head, "No from what I hear the French are throwing a tantrum about the interest rate, if Morgan Junior wasn't such a Francophile he'd see he was throwing good money after bad, and If Harding did have sense he'd ban any further loans to the French until they put their finances in order." Wilson should not have extended a moratorium on payments it just gave the French the idea they could get their way by stamping their feet like children.

Indeed in a reminder that the Congress both held the purse and that the Senate was responsible for ratifying international agreements come the fall they would remind Harding ...arguably though they were late too and should have reminded Wilson sooner... or more strenuously.

The big clock tower chimed. Bill frowned, "they aren't doing well."

"The French or the British?" He replied

"Any of them, to be honest Al. Hell, the farmers back home got used to the French driving prices so high now they don't know what to do... especially once the French threw that tariff up."

... and from the sound of it Harding's response would be signing a riposte that was slapping a tariff for the states on the import of foodstuffs. The tariff on food was one thing, other farm products was something else, but the truth was they needed to import grain from the states, both stock grains and as a pad against the drought. Bill, and as Dawes had noted before him, was right that the demand for grain in europe had driven prices, leading to farmers taking on new debts, and bringing more marginal land under till...and now there just wasn't the demand for it.

The bickering between the Treasury,and the Federal Reserve sure as hell didn't help.

There was a knock on the door. Daniel had the family look, and the height though Allen had almost two inches on his younger brother the younger officer was in favorable company to most of the English aristocracy with regards to his build. It was what a childhood of clean air, rugged exercise, a good diet yielded.

"Its about time you finally made it," The younger Forrest remarked. "I can tell you King George won't be visiting the states, he's gin glad war time prohibition is over. Temperance doesn't sit well with him, or his cousin."

That wasn't really a surprise. "Do you like it here?" He asked regarding the London posting.
--
His Majesty's Government had invited them to stay ... but according to Daniel that was equal parts gratitude and posturing around the Welsh Wizard's handling of the situation. Daniel had been on Black Jack's staff, and made friends with his British counterparts so he had ears abounding on the chatter of British high society. His posting to England was with military intelligence in the face of predictable congress wanting to rush demobilization.

"That's about the size of it."... and the pre war to post war Federal deficit had jumped thirty times... from one billion in federal liabilities to 30 it was a mind-boggling prospect on the face of it. "What about you last I heard your steel division had a hundred thousand men."

He nodded, "We actually expect to expand that. We might not have a navy to feed but there is demand for steel," Though the IJN wanted krupp steel and other naval materials... which western Shensi had chromium mines, "but with the deal with Ford we plan to expand the integration the steel mills will turn out car bodies."

"Its just as well you didn't come last year, between the business with the Czechs... George the fifth had to award medals to the widows of men who died in Northern Russia."

"Was it a problem?"

"No, it would have been a spectacle is all. I know you hate those," His brother paused, "Did you really kill a thousand bolsheviks at ekatrinburg?"

There was a scoff, "Hell no, Daniel. We came in by night and bushwhacked those bandits, and we withdrew before they properly knew we had secured our objective." The objective being the Tsar and his family. "I don't even know the full supposed strength of the reds at Ekatrinburg off the top of my head." He replied as he reached for the glass of scotch.

A quip about the cavalry followed, which did have some merit given the action. "You can expect a medal for it, all the same."

Allen's expression immediately soured from over the rim of the glass, but Bill beat him to the response, "Ah to hell with a bloody neck tie Danny."

"I'm forewarning the two of you."

"How's the war department and state feel about it?"

"With Harding, god I don't know. Wilson probably wouldn't have liked it, but I don't have a feel for the new administration yet." It went without saying that Daniel would need to step lightly until he had a grip on where the new boss in Washington stood.

"You made friends?"

"Well yeah you exchange letters with Louie, he's going to Japan." Daniel replied, "He's sweet on one of the Tsar's daughters but I'm sure you know that." He shook his head moving to glance over the ground, "I was gonna ask too what about this crazy Russian y'all have next door, claims he's a mongol prince or something?"

"Ungern."

Bill nodded, "Yeah, he's a strange one alright. He came down to visit some Church in Gansu, and its all Chingisid this and that out of his mouth, but he can ride for sure." More importantly Ungern had spent the last couple years making good on solidifying a mongolian state around him with relations, and making nice where he needed to. That solidified the net that blocked out Bolshevik agitation. "He and Zhang are pretty close I'd say."

"You all are adopting the German Mauser."

George the Fifth had invited them stag hunting... the king was in no condition to hunt of course ...probably even before being winged by the bolshevik's mouse gun of a browning, but the invitation had been made. "He is in the process of adopting Zhang's version of the rifle."

"Is it any good?"

"Yeah Its a fine rifle. Its the caliber perfect no, but its good enough." Bill replied before the conversation turned into the matter of soldiering. Of men being proficent not just in the use of firearms but also in the trade of woodcraft, of field craft and measures of fighting positions. "Ah wells its different for us Danny, the RPF back before the war wassmall but we'd go out day and night with the men, and well-"

Well, the truth was that Percy had called it early that their troop numbers were unrelated to the war in Europe. That they wouldn't be drawing down the numbers with the end of the European war.

--
Notes: leaving aside the presidential election in the states this is important for other reasons in the long term. By the time we get to post ww2, there is an ideologically coherent north China state that is politically stable this among other things prevents the looting and pillaging of manchuria and the whole scale absconding of much of the industrial machinery of northern china in real life by the red army and that changes the postwar global dyanmic. The soviets have limited ability to expand in Asia except through European vectors, i.e. Ho Chi Minh in French Indochina which is a whole other can of worms down the road. It changes the situation in Korea, and of course this makes the Asianalliance ala nato and its envisioned Marshal plan component viable which will be visible after Truman is succeeded by Ike though admittedly there are other issues.

This alters political and socialdyanmics post war due to industrial factors in East Asia, and thateffects other social norms and academia.. 1st​ through 3rd​world modelling is something that emerges from French Sociology inthe early cold war in response to the actualization of the decline inFrench prestige and power, and this is a major factor in literatureof the period. Thats important in post war international relations.

That being said this notably skips over, though references the events of the 21 Honors Dinner in the extras tab, thats still nominally canon, its just that at the moment I haven't decided whether or not to directly canonize it in that course of events. However, basically the events happen everyone gets drunk at a large social function bolshevik agitator shoots George the V in the arm mistaking him for Nicky, there is a great fracas everyone retires for the night.

 

[ATP]

1921
Cox had won the south, save Tennessee... but the south had been his only wins in the contest, since otherwise Harding had spanked his fellow Ohioan something fierce...but Harding was not precisely an enthusiastic gain to the presidency... at least so far as the Cadre was concerned. From the base of operations in Guatemala the developing Middle American Cadre were pursuing the planed trunk and branch rail development which was coupled with an investment into telephone and telegraph lines, and a general motion across the post office duties . The real tell though would be if Powell could get manufacturing up and off the ground. That would be the real test of the junior office, and if they could do that then Powell would be free to pursue the fillibuster's dream... if not it was still worth the effort to try. Things were looking well enough that they needed to be here, more than they were needed at home.

"There is talk of a small arms commission."

"Yep," He agreed with Bill's statement. "Brownings, and Gewehrs aplenty... mortars probably," Most likely lighter artillery, three inchers to start... the truth was in spring of 21 with the Soviets mostly contained well things were looking a bit optimistic, and the bandit wars in Latin America had been ... well weren't to be predicted. They would be the MAK's White Wolf rebellion, and money and sinking capital to build industry would provide the leverage to what would come in the future. "Most of the stuff we've been more than willing to pass over in technical details to Poland and the Czechs..." stuff that the Reds couldn't effectively use. It would have been nice if Finland might have done the same but those talks were caught up in other quirks even though they had managed to reciprocate other requests. Access to the 155 guns the Finns had came to mind, but there were other factors... it would have been nice to be sure they could have shutoff Lenin's bandits from any and all trade but the British were waffling, there were talk of a trade agreement that was disgustingly close to an arrangement.

It wasn't the only thing they disliked as peace settled over at least western Europe, "From the sound of it Harding won't stop Wall Street from trading with them, but its just talk right now," Bill replied. "We won't really know until something happens."

"He'll push it off on Hughes," Which was lackadaisical handling in his opinion, but Harding, Hughes and Hoover, the 3Hs seemed not to be taking Lenin all that seriously from the sound of it... "I don't know how they'll square the Turks signing the treaty with them," With the Soviets, but that news had come out in January... which Allen figured were the first real bilateral arrangements to be concluded. "And then there are the French,"

"Is Morgan holding to see what Harding says?" Bill questioned folding the paper in his hands.

Allen shook his head, "No from what I hear the French are throwing a tantrum about the interest rate, if Morgan Junior wasn't such a Francophile he'd see he was throwing good money after bad, and If Harding did have sense he'd ban any further loans to the French until they put their finances in order." Wilson should not have extended a moratorium on payments it just gave the French the idea they could get their way by stamping their feet like children.

Indeed in a reminder that the Congress both held the purse and that the Senate was responsible for ratifying international agreements come the fall they would remind Harding ...arguably though they were late too and should have reminded Wilson sooner... or more strenuously.

The big clock tower chimed. Bill frowned, "they aren't doing well."

"The French or the British?" He replied

"Any of them, to be honest Al. Hell, the farmers back home got used to the French driving prices so high now they don't know what to do... especially once the French threw that tariff up."

... and from the sound of it Harding's response would be signing a riposte that was slapping a tariff for the states on the import of foodstuffs. The tariff on food was one thing, other farm products was something else, but the truth was they needed to import grain from the states, both stock grains and as a pad against the drought. Bill, and as Dawes had noted before him, was right that the demand for grain in europe had driven prices, leading to farmers taking on new debts, and bringing more marginal land under till...and now there just wasn't the demand for it.

The bickering between the Treasury,and the Federal Reserve sure as hell didn't help.

There was a knock on the door. Daniel had the family look, and the height though Allen had almost two inches on his younger brother the younger officer was in favorable company to most of the English aristocracy with regards to his build. It was what a childhood of clean air, rugged exercise, a good diet yielded.

"Its about time you finally made it," The younger Forrest remarked. "I can tell you King George won't be visiting the states, he's gin glad war time prohibition is over. Temperance doesn't sit well with him, or his cousin."

That wasn't really a surprise. "Do you like it here?" He asked regarding the London posting.
--
His Majesty's Government had invited them to stay ... but according to Daniel that was equal parts gratitude and posturing around the Welsh Wizard's handling of the situation. Daniel had been on Black Jack's staff, and made friends with his British counterparts so he had ears abounding on the chatter of British high society. His posting to England was with military intelligence in the face of predictable congress wanting to rush demobilization.

"That's about the size of it."... and the pre war to post war Federal deficit had jumped thirty times... from one billion in federal liabilities to 30 it was a mind-boggling prospect on the face of it. "What about you last I heard your steel division had a hundred thousand men."

He nodded, "We actually expect to expand that. We might not have a navy to feed but there is demand for steel," Though the IJN wanted krupp steel and other naval materials... which western Shensi had chromium mines, "but with the deal with Ford we plan to expand the integration the steel mills will turn out car bodies."

"Its just as well you didn't come last year, between the business with the Czechs... George the fifth had to award medals to the widows of men who died in Northern Russia."

"Was it a problem?"

"No, it would have been a spectacle is all. I know you hate those," His brother paused, "Did you really kill a thousand bolsheviks at ekatrinburg?"

There was a scoff, "Hell no, Daniel. We came in by night and bushwhacked those bandits, and we withdrew before they properly knew we had secured our objective." The objective being the Tsar and his family. "I don't even know the full supposed strength of the reds at Ekatrinburg off the top of my head." He replied as he reached for the glass of scotch.

A quip about the cavalry followed, which did have some merit given the action. "You can expect a medal for it, all the same."

Allen's expression immediately soured from over the rim of the glass, but Bill beat him to the response, "Ah to hell with a bloody neck tie Danny."

"I'm forewarning the two of you."

"How's the war department and state feel about it?"

"With Harding, god I don't know. Wilson probably wouldn't have liked it, but I don't have a feel for the new administration yet." It went without saying that Daniel would need to step lightly until he had a grip on where the new boss in Washington stood.

"You made friends?"

"Well yeah you exchange letters with Louie, he's going to Japan." Daniel replied, "He's sweet on one of the Tsar's daughters but I'm sure you know that." He shook his head moving to glance over the ground, "I was gonna ask too what about this crazy Russian y'all have next door, claims he's a mongol prince or something?"

"Ungern."

Bill nodded, "Yeah, he's a strange one alright. He came down to visit some Church in Gansu, and its all Chingisid this and that out of his mouth, but he can ride for sure." More importantly Ungern had spent the last couple years making good on solidifying a mongolian state around him with relations, and making nice where he needed to. That solidified the net that blocked out Bolshevik agitation. "He and Zhang are pretty close I'd say."

"You all are adopting the German Mauser."

George the Fifth had invited them stag hunting... the king was in no condition to hunt of course ...probably even before being winged by the bolshevik's mouse gun of a browning, but the invitation had been made. "He is in the process of adopting Zhang's version of the rifle."

"Is it any good?"

"Yeah Its a fine rifle. Its the caliber perfect no, but its good enough." Bill replied before the conversation turned into the matter of soldiering. Of men being proficent not just in the use of firearms but also in the trade of woodcraft, of field craft and measures of fighting positions. "Ah wells its different for us Danny, the RPF back before the war wassmall but we'd go out day and night with the men, and well-"

Well, the truth was that Percy had called it early that their troop numbers were unrelated to the war in Europe. That they wouldn't be drawing down the numbers with the end of the European war.

--
Notes: leaving aside the presidential election in the states this is important for other reasons in the long term. By the time we get to post ww2, there is an ideologically coherent north China state that is politically stable this among other things prevents the looting and pillaging of manchuria and the whole scale absconding of much of the industrial machinery of northern china in real life by the red army and that changes the postwar global dyanmic. The soviets have limited ability to expand in Asia except through European vectors, i.e. Ho Chi Minh in French Indochina which is a whole other can of worms down the road. It changes the situation in Korea, and of course this makes the Asianalliance ala nato and its envisioned Marshal plan component viable which will be visible after Truman is succeeded by Ike though admittedly there are other issues.

This alters political and socialdyanmics post war due to industrial factors in East Asia, and thateffects other social norms and academia.. 1st​ through 3rd​world modelling is something that emerges from French Sociology inthe early cold war in response to the actualization of the decline inFrench prestige and power, and this is a major factor in literatureof the period. Thats important in post war international relations.

That being said this notably skips over, though references the events of the 21 Honors Dinner in the extras tab, thats still nominally canon, its just that at the moment I haven't decided whether or not to directly canonize it in that course of events. However, basically the events happen everyone gets drunk at a large social function bolshevik agitator shoots George the V in the arm mistaking him for Nicky, there is a great fracas everyone retires for the night.

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Thanks for chapter !

What would they pass to Poland and czech? Krupp gun prototypes? thanks to that,both countries could have better artillery - BUT,brits would made czech surrender on schedule,and Poland would lost becouse german advantage and our leaders stupidity anyway.
Well,and french wasting chance to destroy germans ,too.


Speaking about mortars - in 1927 french would made 81mm mortar with better range thanks to new ammo,and in 1935 construct 120 and 60mm mortars,too.
Soviets would made 160mm mortar/rather artillery piece/ in 1943,and 240mm mortar after WW2.

Here,your China could made all of that before WW2.Not game changer,but - cheap firepower is always good thing to have.

Unger could create independent mongol state in OTL,if Allies gave him help wasted on white generals.And,i wish happy end to whoever court tsar daughter.

Soviets here,without asiatic republic and Siberia,would be weaker - which mean,that during WW2,even with blessing and help of USA,could not take as many countries as in OTL.Poland would still be damned,but Hungary,Yugoslavia and Bulgary could remain free.Maybe Czech,too.

And yes,Wall Street would support commies and built for them tank factories just like in OTL.Soviets still have tsar,orthodox church and russian citizen gold after all,and when they spend that all,they would sell grain taken from starved farmers.

Talking about starved farmers - did they take Kazachstan here? if not,they have less grain to sell,and 30% of kazach would not be genocided.

 

[Imperator Pax]

The 81mm is basically already coming in earlier, along with the other 60mm and 120mm following, precisely because the 3 inch mortar is such a cheap firepower solution to infantry unites.

Kazakhstan and the Central Asia not republics are under a white nominally cossack government aligned with Great Britain (as opposed to the nominally white siberian maritime governments aligned with Japan).

 

[ATP]

The 81mm is basically already coming in earlier, along with the other 60mm and 120mm following, precisely because the 3 inch mortar is such a cheap firepower solution to infantry unites.

Kazakhstan and the Central Asia not republics are under a white nominally cossack government aligned with Great Britain (as opposed to the nominally white siberian maritime governments aligned with Japan).

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Thanks !
i knew,that mortars were made during WW1 - but new ammo which lead to better range/81mm - 3km instead of 1km,if i remember correctly/ was invented by french in 1927,and from that moment mortars become real weapon used everywhere,not only in trench warfare.

Kazachstan - good,they really do not deserved what happened to them OTL.I read many memories of poles exiled there,they all agree that local people were good,and even tried to help them when they can.
And all hated soviets,and waited for germans to come and liberete them.Which,of course,they told poles only when they undarstandt,that we hate commies,too.

Of course many poles,especially children,died there - but the same happened to local people.Everybody was half-starved to death there,except NKWD and party thugs.

 

[ATP]

The 81mm is basically already coming in earlier, along with the other 60mm and 120mm following, precisely because the 3 inch mortar is such a cheap firepower solution to infantry unites.

Kazakhstan and the Central Asia not republics are under a white nominally cossack government aligned with Great Britain (as opposed to the nominally white siberian maritime governments aligned with Japan).

Click to shrink...

I forget - what kind of 155mm guns Finns had? if i remember correctly,they used russian guns,which mean 152mm howitzers.
P.S What Czech and Poland would buy from your China ?

 

[Imperator Pax]

I forget - what kind of 155mm guns Finns had? if i remember correctly,they used russian guns,which mean 152mm howitzers.
P.S What Czech and Poland would buy from your China ?

Click to shrink...

The 155 were French schneiders built for imperial Russia I'll have to be home in order to actually pull the specifics but they're very good guns