ATP
Well worn.
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True,but you have both technology to built it,and dudes who could made it.Wait for your engine man to built stronger engines,and you could have SM81 mass produced in,let say,1927 or 1928.
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Pax's Alternate History Snippet repository.
- Thread starter Imperator Pax
- Start date
August 1921
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2019
- Messages
- 6,138
August 1921
The standing committee held a number of men with austrian knots, and a half dozen officers of rank with red dragons banding their collars, and every man present was in field gray regardless of the caps resting on the table. Reinsch would have complained about the lack of civilian suits regardless of whether it was peace or war time. "There is going to be a naval conference in Washington."
Allen nodded... or really most shrugged, "Yeah, I was told." he replied, and truth be told he was surprised Powell had made the trip never mind was bringing it up. They were meeting railway production targets and shipping engines both into Kirghiz, and across the Pacific to the port of Quetzal which Powell had been expanding to handle the arrival of heavy industry.
"Its Hughes's baby." He continued, "But China, and Belgium are both planning to attend... nine countries," Portugal, the Dutch, Italy as well with of course the states, the brits, Japan, and the French. "So far as the talks going around its the exact opposite strategy of Tillman in terms of plans." The Senator from South Carolina was dead now but the idea had been to have the states build the biggest meanest ship afloat for the battle line and then focus on cruisers of a more modest size to busy southern yards to protect commercial shipping, but in short to settle out the question of who had the best battleship once and for all.
That list was good news in a way. The Germans wouldn't be attending but neither would the bolsheviks... that Harding not recognizing Lenin's group of thugs was a good sign. "And what will that," Both the conference, and the abscence of a nod from the White House, "mean for Siberia?"
"I don't think Hughes gives a damn personally, Harding... some of the others... that's a harder read," The red leg replied, "The brits and Japanese have agreed in their cables to recognize the borders as they exist, I think in order to get Britain and Japan to agree Harding will agree to that." Some people might not like that, but ... Harding was not adventurous.
If things held that was good. The shooting, the injuring of the British King might have been seen as a good thing for revolutionaries committed to the cause, might have been seen as a step in the right direction for hard liners. That kind of talk though would get a man punched in the mouth given present English sentiment...George the fifth was a popular man, more so than Lloyd George as it seemed the Welsh Wizard was starting to have outstayed his welcome. Certainly the Anglo-soviet trade discussions so soon before the shooting proved a problem for him.
It was bad timing all around.
There was a pause, "Hughes isn't going to invite the Bolsheviks. He is going to invite France, and Italy." Griswold remarked. "We needn't give a damn about Italy, but the Frogs are making mouth noises about the Chinese markets... and then there is Shantung to consider as well. Koo is going to run off at the mouth."
There was an exasperated grown from a former cavalry officer, "He doesn't even like the Fukien clique," and besides that the Beiyang government was in no position to spend money on the Navy... which wasn't to say that there hadn't been talk of buying ships that would otherwise go to the breakers.
"They're not going for the navy." Waite commented, "No this is about the open door, and the age old argument about what open door even means. Best case Lansing and Ishi's understanding holdings and we get the British in agreement with that." No Germans to worry about. No Russians... but still the frogs grabbing at english speaking coattails like that cartoon.
"Powell?" Allen asked.
"There is talk about an immigration bill."
"Another one?"
There had been one in 1917. "Its still in talks I don't think they'll get to it anytime soon but its something that will happen. Harding wants a renewal of the previous one, but I figure they're going to want more."
"What do you want done about it?"
Powell shrugged, "I want to get around it, of course. Its stupid, but in a way it benefits us. The gentleman's agreement with Tokyo is silly and going back on it is worse. I'll happily take anyone from China or Japan who wants an honest job and I need Italians and Germans for the works as well. Poland just got its country back so I'll trade with them but things are what they are." The red leg declared a gallic shrug to punctuate the statement.
It was in this that there was an inherent driving idea with regards to society. Xian's constitution profoundly declared all men equal under the law. Circulars that went out espoused a promotion by merit and ability that encouraged studying, and excellence. That same borrowing of ideas shaped the mission statement of the Middle American Cadre and its own documents, both in their newspapers and the charters of their corporate towns.
But neither cadre, and certainly not the much smaller European based purer business interests had the influence to set or shape immigration policy. The collections of men could say what they wanted with regards to immigration but it was outside of their ability to make that policy in 1921 at home, and certainly abroad. "The Conference is in Washington proper isn't it?" Allen questioned.
"It is, I figure that I should have no trouble sailing through the canal, and reaching the capital." Powell replied, "I'll take notes on what all I can find out," He paused for a moment, looking around at the other side of the table. No one joined the conversation. The truth was while Powell's mission, the MAK's aims to have a merchant shipping portion which could carry goods over the sea had a basis in lessons learned or ecognized long ago in the phillipines and reiterated with the European war the Cadre here in Xian simply did not have the ports under its own control. It had not interest in trying to finangle that given it passed through wei hai wei and shantung under long standing agreements with the tariff commission operated on behalf of China largely by the British.
--
Notes: This is going up early real life impaied the completion of the next segment of rabid fox which is what was otherwise scheduled for today's post so I will most likely be pushing things a day forward with things back to normal on Sunday with Ghost going up.
The standing committee held a number of men with austrian knots, and a half dozen officers of rank with red dragons banding their collars, and every man present was in field gray regardless of the caps resting on the table. Reinsch would have complained about the lack of civilian suits regardless of whether it was peace or war time. "There is going to be a naval conference in Washington."
Allen nodded... or really most shrugged, "Yeah, I was told." he replied, and truth be told he was surprised Powell had made the trip never mind was bringing it up. They were meeting railway production targets and shipping engines both into Kirghiz, and across the Pacific to the port of Quetzal which Powell had been expanding to handle the arrival of heavy industry.
"Its Hughes's baby." He continued, "But China, and Belgium are both planning to attend... nine countries," Portugal, the Dutch, Italy as well with of course the states, the brits, Japan, and the French. "So far as the talks going around its the exact opposite strategy of Tillman in terms of plans." The Senator from South Carolina was dead now but the idea had been to have the states build the biggest meanest ship afloat for the battle line and then focus on cruisers of a more modest size to busy southern yards to protect commercial shipping, but in short to settle out the question of who had the best battleship once and for all.
That list was good news in a way. The Germans wouldn't be attending but neither would the bolsheviks... that Harding not recognizing Lenin's group of thugs was a good sign. "And what will that," Both the conference, and the abscence of a nod from the White House, "mean for Siberia?"
"I don't think Hughes gives a damn personally, Harding... some of the others... that's a harder read," The red leg replied, "The brits and Japanese have agreed in their cables to recognize the borders as they exist, I think in order to get Britain and Japan to agree Harding will agree to that." Some people might not like that, but ... Harding was not adventurous.
If things held that was good. The shooting, the injuring of the British King might have been seen as a good thing for revolutionaries committed to the cause, might have been seen as a step in the right direction for hard liners. That kind of talk though would get a man punched in the mouth given present English sentiment...George the fifth was a popular man, more so than Lloyd George as it seemed the Welsh Wizard was starting to have outstayed his welcome. Certainly the Anglo-soviet trade discussions so soon before the shooting proved a problem for him.
It was bad timing all around.
There was a pause, "Hughes isn't going to invite the Bolsheviks. He is going to invite France, and Italy." Griswold remarked. "We needn't give a damn about Italy, but the Frogs are making mouth noises about the Chinese markets... and then there is Shantung to consider as well. Koo is going to run off at the mouth."
There was an exasperated grown from a former cavalry officer, "He doesn't even like the Fukien clique," and besides that the Beiyang government was in no position to spend money on the Navy... which wasn't to say that there hadn't been talk of buying ships that would otherwise go to the breakers.
"They're not going for the navy." Waite commented, "No this is about the open door, and the age old argument about what open door even means. Best case Lansing and Ishi's understanding holdings and we get the British in agreement with that." No Germans to worry about. No Russians... but still the frogs grabbing at english speaking coattails like that cartoon.
"Powell?" Allen asked.
"There is talk about an immigration bill."
"Another one?"
There had been one in 1917. "Its still in talks I don't think they'll get to it anytime soon but its something that will happen. Harding wants a renewal of the previous one, but I figure they're going to want more."
"What do you want done about it?"
Powell shrugged, "I want to get around it, of course. Its stupid, but in a way it benefits us. The gentleman's agreement with Tokyo is silly and going back on it is worse. I'll happily take anyone from China or Japan who wants an honest job and I need Italians and Germans for the works as well. Poland just got its country back so I'll trade with them but things are what they are." The red leg declared a gallic shrug to punctuate the statement.
It was in this that there was an inherent driving idea with regards to society. Xian's constitution profoundly declared all men equal under the law. Circulars that went out espoused a promotion by merit and ability that encouraged studying, and excellence. That same borrowing of ideas shaped the mission statement of the Middle American Cadre and its own documents, both in their newspapers and the charters of their corporate towns.
But neither cadre, and certainly not the much smaller European based purer business interests had the influence to set or shape immigration policy. The collections of men could say what they wanted with regards to immigration but it was outside of their ability to make that policy in 1921 at home, and certainly abroad. "The Conference is in Washington proper isn't it?" Allen questioned.
"It is, I figure that I should have no trouble sailing through the canal, and reaching the capital." Powell replied, "I'll take notes on what all I can find out," He paused for a moment, looking around at the other side of the table. No one joined the conversation. The truth was while Powell's mission, the MAK's aims to have a merchant shipping portion which could carry goods over the sea had a basis in lessons learned or ecognized long ago in the phillipines and reiterated with the European war the Cadre here in Xian simply did not have the ports under its own control. It had not interest in trying to finangle that given it passed through wei hai wei and shantung under long standing agreements with the tariff commission operated on behalf of China largely by the British.
--
Notes: This is going up early real life impaied the completion of the next segment of rabid fox which is what was otherwise scheduled for today's post so I will most likely be pushing things a day forward with things back to normal on Sunday with Ghost going up.
ATP
Well worn.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2020
- Messages
- 6,080
Tillman monsters - pity,that they were never built.It would change notching,but be more cool!
migrants rejected by USA going to your China - good for you.
P.S maybe you manage to buy some battleships send to scrapyards and use them as mobile batteries?They could not be send to other navies,but if it was army buing them and naming,let say,as division of heavy artillery,it could work!
migrants rejected by USA going to your China - good for you.
P.S maybe you manage to buy some battleships send to scrapyards and use them as mobile batteries?They could not be send to other navies,but if it was army buing them and naming,let say,as division of heavy artillery,it could work!
September 1921
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2019
- Messages
- 6,138
September 1921
He could remember in 1913 talks of the first regiment... or the argument over even calling it an army. The question 'what should the army be used for' would have a very different answer in twenty years, the cadre had always been leery of haying to far one way or another, but in 1921 the conclusion more or less established by conditions on the ground was that the army had to be able to perform some degree of law enforcement capacity. It had been the unpopular consensus basically since the army had formalized, but the opposing position had agreed that regardless of how the states did things posse commitatus was not a good fit for China. The Army had to be available for such duties as there was no civilian bureaucracy available to them even in 1921 which was of sufficient size to undertake the sure backlog of work in addition to all the new incidents of bandit fighting.
But just as they had papers which published and spoke on their particular positions, there were in circulation papers in Szechwan. The province was divided under the control of different warlords yes, but which still reached regional audiences. He tossed the paper into a stack with the others published by 'their side', the article didn't read like it was one of Jun's and it wasn't one of her pen names but almost certainly someone she had approved of for it to receive a front page publication. It spoke in the melding the old ways with the new, of a synthesis of both learning new things and adapting old ways for modernity.
The article was quick to call up the annals of the warring states when speaking of modern events, and the expressions of that period. To enrich the country, and strengthen the army, and their neighbor to the south wasn't ignorant of that growing strength. They'd let Kansu units and other Ma clique brigades pass over the border to raid bandits... and settle grudges... it had let them defend the border with limited troops and he didn't regret that decision. The border defenses especially those ancient, storied historical towns passes and highways that went back two thousand years were better protected now.
Not that they had had much ability to stop the Ma family from doing so... but they had had the option, it had been their choice to support them. Part of the labors undertaken by the new bureaucracy was an unvarnished look of history... of the historical record. It had started out as just looking at the previous dynasty.
The realization that China hadn't bothered with a proper census and tax roll reform since the first Ming Emperor had been a shock to the system when they had first learned of such. There had already been objections to the Qianlong Emperor's reign, and some of the decisions of the Kongxi Emperor for fiscal policy especially as the cadre had adopted tax powers as part of its bailiwick. The history writing had expanded to all of Chinese history and that included the focus on the first emperor's tomb, and the papers wrote themselves.
During Qianlong's reign the landed gentry had in the face of government corruption created their own private militias. The newspaper in question was quick to associate the Ma clique's brigades of Kansu to those in comparison. That was not flattering. It was at best a back handed compliment.
"We recognize a militia's right to exist."
"If its well regulated." Waite replied, emphasizing the line cribbed from the Bill of Rights. "He's asserting-"
"I know what he's asserting." The other red leg grunted. Griswold twisted in his seat to look at him, "Fundamentally the Ma clique lost its head when Old Ma died. They lost steam without leadership, there are still some old men with influence, but Hongkui has been going over the border up and over up and over for years. He's spent as a force and most of the Hui in Kansu, and Xinjiang are looking more towards us than the central government."
That was true.
It was also true that Hongkui's efforts while appreciated were looked at as a dated response, a relic as compulsory education, and growing jobs in Kansu pushed eligible, desirable recruits towards the cadre lead provincial army or in less martial families sending sons to factory work, or to coal mines or into the city to work as shop keepers as towns grew larger and expanded.
It was also true in Tibet according to Hodges. Lhasa was mostly Han merchants, but Hodges was expanding the Cadre's interests and while he was fond of Buddhism and enjoyed the company of monks and learned men, he was also dead set that there were things that had to be done. That meant compulsory education.
"Here," The historical record being compiled also relayed on the information not just of the Qing themselves but freelance Chinese scholars writing in the time of Jiaqing emperor during the literary loosening of censorship, but also the number of active english sources, and the result of looking back at that were that they had to look at, "This is the Han river islands mess, see here is Hupeh, Shansi," and of course Szechwan, which was the real, larger concern.
At the end of the 18thcentury when the states had been young the crisis had forced the local gentry to form their own militias... not that that was new of course... which of course why newspapers could draw historical comparisons, "I don't like that comparison," Waite replied, "The Qing claimed to have killed a hundred thousand rebels, and leaving aside corruption in Qianlong's day and inflated numbers that was with pike and shot and bow and spear not repeating rifles." The rebellion in the early years of the 19th century though had had a religious component, something in Szechwan that they were thankfully unlikely to face. On the other hand the armies of the various warlords, and bandit kings of Szechwan of note easily dwarfed that of Wang Lung from over a century earlier. "It was most certainly not what happens when a 15cm Krupp battery opens up from a hill six miles away."
There were nods from the men. That was another point regarding why Hongkui's ranks were thinning. His cavalry needed fodder but more than that horses were hard to replace ... and HOngkui's independent brigades while shock in szechwan for performance couldn't stay on scene and lacked the baggage to support more than a handful of machine guns. Kansu's brigades were built much akin to colonial frontier armies of the British Empire in Africa dashing hither and dither as they moved but relying on square and maxim gun to show off superior enemy numbers.... which had worked for them these past several years, but they still suffered attrition, and a lack of an ability to replace materiel as well.
He could remember in 1913 talks of the first regiment... or the argument over even calling it an army. The question 'what should the army be used for' would have a very different answer in twenty years, the cadre had always been leery of haying to far one way or another, but in 1921 the conclusion more or less established by conditions on the ground was that the army had to be able to perform some degree of law enforcement capacity. It had been the unpopular consensus basically since the army had formalized, but the opposing position had agreed that regardless of how the states did things posse commitatus was not a good fit for China. The Army had to be available for such duties as there was no civilian bureaucracy available to them even in 1921 which was of sufficient size to undertake the sure backlog of work in addition to all the new incidents of bandit fighting.
But just as they had papers which published and spoke on their particular positions, there were in circulation papers in Szechwan. The province was divided under the control of different warlords yes, but which still reached regional audiences. He tossed the paper into a stack with the others published by 'their side', the article didn't read like it was one of Jun's and it wasn't one of her pen names but almost certainly someone she had approved of for it to receive a front page publication. It spoke in the melding the old ways with the new, of a synthesis of both learning new things and adapting old ways for modernity.
The article was quick to call up the annals of the warring states when speaking of modern events, and the expressions of that period. To enrich the country, and strengthen the army, and their neighbor to the south wasn't ignorant of that growing strength. They'd let Kansu units and other Ma clique brigades pass over the border to raid bandits... and settle grudges... it had let them defend the border with limited troops and he didn't regret that decision. The border defenses especially those ancient, storied historical towns passes and highways that went back two thousand years were better protected now.
Not that they had had much ability to stop the Ma family from doing so... but they had had the option, it had been their choice to support them. Part of the labors undertaken by the new bureaucracy was an unvarnished look of history... of the historical record. It had started out as just looking at the previous dynasty.
The realization that China hadn't bothered with a proper census and tax roll reform since the first Ming Emperor had been a shock to the system when they had first learned of such. There had already been objections to the Qianlong Emperor's reign, and some of the decisions of the Kongxi Emperor for fiscal policy especially as the cadre had adopted tax powers as part of its bailiwick. The history writing had expanded to all of Chinese history and that included the focus on the first emperor's tomb, and the papers wrote themselves.
During Qianlong's reign the landed gentry had in the face of government corruption created their own private militias. The newspaper in question was quick to associate the Ma clique's brigades of Kansu to those in comparison. That was not flattering. It was at best a back handed compliment.
"We recognize a militia's right to exist."
"If its well regulated." Waite replied, emphasizing the line cribbed from the Bill of Rights. "He's asserting-"
"I know what he's asserting." The other red leg grunted. Griswold twisted in his seat to look at him, "Fundamentally the Ma clique lost its head when Old Ma died. They lost steam without leadership, there are still some old men with influence, but Hongkui has been going over the border up and over up and over for years. He's spent as a force and most of the Hui in Kansu, and Xinjiang are looking more towards us than the central government."
That was true.
It was also true that Hongkui's efforts while appreciated were looked at as a dated response, a relic as compulsory education, and growing jobs in Kansu pushed eligible, desirable recruits towards the cadre lead provincial army or in less martial families sending sons to factory work, or to coal mines or into the city to work as shop keepers as towns grew larger and expanded.
It was also true in Tibet according to Hodges. Lhasa was mostly Han merchants, but Hodges was expanding the Cadre's interests and while he was fond of Buddhism and enjoyed the company of monks and learned men, he was also dead set that there were things that had to be done. That meant compulsory education.
"Here," The historical record being compiled also relayed on the information not just of the Qing themselves but freelance Chinese scholars writing in the time of Jiaqing emperor during the literary loosening of censorship, but also the number of active english sources, and the result of looking back at that were that they had to look at, "This is the Han river islands mess, see here is Hupeh, Shansi," and of course Szechwan, which was the real, larger concern.
At the end of the 18thcentury when the states had been young the crisis had forced the local gentry to form their own militias... not that that was new of course... which of course why newspapers could draw historical comparisons, "I don't like that comparison," Waite replied, "The Qing claimed to have killed a hundred thousand rebels, and leaving aside corruption in Qianlong's day and inflated numbers that was with pike and shot and bow and spear not repeating rifles." The rebellion in the early years of the 19th century though had had a religious component, something in Szechwan that they were thankfully unlikely to face. On the other hand the armies of the various warlords, and bandit kings of Szechwan of note easily dwarfed that of Wang Lung from over a century earlier. "It was most certainly not what happens when a 15cm Krupp battery opens up from a hill six miles away."
There were nods from the men. That was another point regarding why Hongkui's ranks were thinning. His cavalry needed fodder but more than that horses were hard to replace ... and HOngkui's independent brigades while shock in szechwan for performance couldn't stay on scene and lacked the baggage to support more than a handful of machine guns. Kansu's brigades were built much akin to colonial frontier armies of the British Empire in Africa dashing hither and dither as they moved but relying on square and maxim gun to show off superior enemy numbers.... which had worked for them these past several years, but they still suffered attrition, and a lack of an ability to replace materiel as well.
Last edited:
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2019
- Messages
- 6,138
Under Washington you couldn't buy the ships (this was partially something everyone agreed to tp orevent Britain from giving Australia / Canada tons of ships to keep in reserve or for them to sell them to latin america) but the artillery on the other hand well those guns are going to be available and can be mounted on trains.
ATP
Well worn.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2020
- Messages
- 6,080
Pity,i really wanted to see some battleship sailing as regiment of heavy artillery!
But,rail guns would work here.
September 1921
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2019
- Messages
- 6,138
September 1921
At the beginning of the month Wood had accepted Harding's invitation to the post of Governor General to the Phillipines. It wouldn't meaningfully change anything, per se...there were possibilities. The Cadre governed provinces were all in northern china, they were not readily suited to the growing of paddy rice, which had originated in the south, but the Philippines... well the islands could grow rice fine.
That presented the opportunity to import rice for those who wanted to buy it at market. There were urban dwellers who wanted that. It had been a topic among the last of the conference... that in terms of administration with agriculture starting to get a bit more normal they could see about trades in non necessity goods.
So after emergency grain stocks, and coffee as the crack had went to the laughs at the table. The talk of trade should have been a good thing. Trading for things... and buying rice from the Philippines would mean shorter turn around times. Rather than trying to buy them from the southern states, which would have been an option. There would have been talks about quality of course, and the breed of rice, but if not for the war then the shipping would have been available. Trade was good though.
Trade was normal.
Trade would be the nice part of normal.
Normal though entailed other things. "Wood is going to want to comment on our police," Waite observed, "Will want to talk about the elections wouldn't be surprised if the old man doesn't want to stick his nose in everything we do, and tell us everything we're doing wrong."
"You think?"
"That's because you were the favorite," Waite replied, and he wasn't likely wrong. Certainly Wood's endorsement had helped secure him a position as observer with the Japanese Army during the war against the Russians, and that had helped secure him elsewhere. The promotion to major after had been endorsed by Wood. "If we're lucky he'll happily write to the state department and the president with all praise for it." He shook his head, "Look that'd be the best thing for us, I don't know what Harding thinks of us, but Wilson was crazy at the end of his term but State is talking to Powell about this business in Nicaragua." The cable had come in this morning from Washington... a trip there for the naval conference where Powell would also be seeing what was going on with the other delegations.
They were reading everyone's mail after all.
He had no problem with that. Akashi would have approved after all... which was just a reminder that so many of their mentors and other friends were dead. He'd written to Edenborn after all concerned for the Louisianans mortality, which had always seemed more apparent then Colonel McCulloch. There was no getting around that though... but that was still a reminder of how they had gotten here... and standing on their own now more or less. "State's goodwill would only help us, but it can't make or break us. Trade would be good for the provinces, short distances are better for trade so if we can buy rice from the Philippines that's good."
They wanted trade. That was important. A prosperous people tended to want things from the market that theycouldn't make for themselves... and the truth was that as people moved in from the farm they needed to use their wages to buy goods for life that they didn't make. Shellman was quick to point out concerns about the population but he was also not wrong about the concerns of fire, and for the matter sickness. They needed to plan public layout for a much larger populace than they had especially as they moved westerly. The Navy doctor had a horrific fear of what mercury or other heavy metals might do if it got into the water table... which of course just encouraged him to make conversation about good stewardship in general of the waste.
There were concerns about smallpox again, which Shellman was right needed to be handled. Hodges agreed... and unfortunately that meant that they had to look back at some of the things Yuan Shikai had done when he'd been president. Officially Tibet's capital was Lhasa, as the head of the local cadre Hodges was within his constitutional rights to organize as needed for public safety, and health measures against small pox... but the provincial borders were not the same as how far their actual reach extended.
Lhasa was mostly ethnic Chinese after all. As inclined to be conciliatory as Hodges was he was also adamant that the provincial constitution applied to the entirety of the old Qing province. Any agreements to which China had not signed on be damned... by which he meant a rejection of the Simla Convention.
The problem there in was Curzon had told the government in Peking he meant to treat Tibet as an autonomous state. "Which makes no damned sense given our situation, does he mean to extend that to all the provinces?"
Surely not, Allen imagined, and Curzon even admitted to contemplating that would like create a furor at the state department regardless of any good will they presently enjoyed. The cadre's position time and again had always been to recognize the beiyang government in Peking as the legitimate government... and as it related to Tibet as a province one represented in the national assembly.
Curzon's motivations might well have been driven by his time as viceroy of India or as Bill succinctly but it, "He could just be an arrogant son of a bitch." ... but that didn't change the communicated memorandum to the Chinese that the Foreign Secretary wanted to treat Tibet as separate from China as a whole.... or how other powers might then start acting. The anglo-russian accord was in the trash... but there was breathing space there, so the more immediate concern was Manchuria with regards to Japan following Curzon's policy, or the French with regards to Yunnan.
Harding would never say such things were normal. Harding supported the idea of the open door in principle, but what worried the cadre was that even at the beginning there had always been a disagreement between the great powers exactly what was meant by the open door... and Curzon's statement to Peking was worrying. More worrying especially because of exactly what they had become, they had compiled a census of the provinces a census that they had originally prepared to carry out a decade earlier for the old dynasty.
A decade earlier still the cadre not that it had existed as such in 1900 had been a gathering predominantly of young officers who opposed, rejected the old Jeffersonian notions of a provincial, farmer's republic that was as Long had put it was 'safe behind its oceanic walls.' They had been looking for adventure, and a part of voices that had come together to advocate for a more expansive US policy, and the victory in early may had been an affirmation because only an expansive US policy would have insured that they wouldn't languish as lieutenants.
That had been a selfish consideration, but they had all been twenty some things back then. They were older now, more mature now with the adventures of the Philippines behind them, and they'd been here in China for a long time. "I think it would be prudent that we discuss it with Crane's replacement," Which was the problem... they had known that Crane wasn't going to be around forever, and it was all well and good to see a friendly familiar face in the Philippines, and they benefitted from Iseburo being viceroy in all but name on the great lake to the north of themselves. "We got complacent," Hodges admitted after a moment where the heavier set man had glanced around the small room that was crowded with just the six of them favoring his good leg, "We were used to the Legation being stable," So little turn around in Tietsin, and even that hadn't been really accurate... the European war had been an anomaly of course John Jordan and Reinsch would be recalled home and replaced with other men, and there would have been no reason to assume that their replacements would stay on as long... but they had assumed. "So we should talk with the new one, for ever have long the yankee has the post, and Wood in the Philippines."
Bill nodded at the comment, "Phineas has been talking about the railway work in Texas, Edenborn has been busy, and there is talk about a line to Dallas," Whether or not either the Louisianan or the McCulloch family were interested in supporting more rail infrastructure in the Philippines immediately Edenborn could probably be expected to support the founding of schools in the Philippines, agricultural work, and research, and of course efforts to combat disease. That was exactly the idea Powell had for Middle America as well but there would have to be separate commissions ... they had been gone too long from the Philippines to really cement leadership of something like what Powell had underway there, but there was still a lot of work to be done... but that was nothing new.
--
Notes: So first and foremost the computer crash earlier in the summer mulched a couple of the August updates hence rapidly going from July to September as we did, butthis is part of the internetional arc where there is that transitionin the governments of going 'back to normal' on a number of points,and on the British side is Curzon as Foreign Secrectary, Harding hitting the usual US talking points of hte period without actuallycoming out and defining what things like the Open Door actually entailed in the US conception as well as other other policy decisions(and of course there is the naval discussions and other treaty considerations in Washington, there are post war finances, there isthe change of from Wilson to Harding (Harding has only been in office for a handful of months by this point) with Wilson by and large havebeen ignored by the incoming government... which is something that should have otherwise gotten more screen time in the previous updates, but will probably be commented on in the following september updates).
At the beginning of the month Wood had accepted Harding's invitation to the post of Governor General to the Phillipines. It wouldn't meaningfully change anything, per se...there were possibilities. The Cadre governed provinces were all in northern china, they were not readily suited to the growing of paddy rice, which had originated in the south, but the Philippines... well the islands could grow rice fine.
That presented the opportunity to import rice for those who wanted to buy it at market. There were urban dwellers who wanted that. It had been a topic among the last of the conference... that in terms of administration with agriculture starting to get a bit more normal they could see about trades in non necessity goods.
So after emergency grain stocks, and coffee as the crack had went to the laughs at the table. The talk of trade should have been a good thing. Trading for things... and buying rice from the Philippines would mean shorter turn around times. Rather than trying to buy them from the southern states, which would have been an option. There would have been talks about quality of course, and the breed of rice, but if not for the war then the shipping would have been available. Trade was good though.
Trade was normal.
Trade would be the nice part of normal.
Normal though entailed other things. "Wood is going to want to comment on our police," Waite observed, "Will want to talk about the elections wouldn't be surprised if the old man doesn't want to stick his nose in everything we do, and tell us everything we're doing wrong."
"You think?"
"That's because you were the favorite," Waite replied, and he wasn't likely wrong. Certainly Wood's endorsement had helped secure him a position as observer with the Japanese Army during the war against the Russians, and that had helped secure him elsewhere. The promotion to major after had been endorsed by Wood. "If we're lucky he'll happily write to the state department and the president with all praise for it." He shook his head, "Look that'd be the best thing for us, I don't know what Harding thinks of us, but Wilson was crazy at the end of his term but State is talking to Powell about this business in Nicaragua." The cable had come in this morning from Washington... a trip there for the naval conference where Powell would also be seeing what was going on with the other delegations.
They were reading everyone's mail after all.
He had no problem with that. Akashi would have approved after all... which was just a reminder that so many of their mentors and other friends were dead. He'd written to Edenborn after all concerned for the Louisianans mortality, which had always seemed more apparent then Colonel McCulloch. There was no getting around that though... but that was still a reminder of how they had gotten here... and standing on their own now more or less. "State's goodwill would only help us, but it can't make or break us. Trade would be good for the provinces, short distances are better for trade so if we can buy rice from the Philippines that's good."
They wanted trade. That was important. A prosperous people tended to want things from the market that theycouldn't make for themselves... and the truth was that as people moved in from the farm they needed to use their wages to buy goods for life that they didn't make. Shellman was quick to point out concerns about the population but he was also not wrong about the concerns of fire, and for the matter sickness. They needed to plan public layout for a much larger populace than they had especially as they moved westerly. The Navy doctor had a horrific fear of what mercury or other heavy metals might do if it got into the water table... which of course just encouraged him to make conversation about good stewardship in general of the waste.
There were concerns about smallpox again, which Shellman was right needed to be handled. Hodges agreed... and unfortunately that meant that they had to look back at some of the things Yuan Shikai had done when he'd been president. Officially Tibet's capital was Lhasa, as the head of the local cadre Hodges was within his constitutional rights to organize as needed for public safety, and health measures against small pox... but the provincial borders were not the same as how far their actual reach extended.
Lhasa was mostly ethnic Chinese after all. As inclined to be conciliatory as Hodges was he was also adamant that the provincial constitution applied to the entirety of the old Qing province. Any agreements to which China had not signed on be damned... by which he meant a rejection of the Simla Convention.
The problem there in was Curzon had told the government in Peking he meant to treat Tibet as an autonomous state. "Which makes no damned sense given our situation, does he mean to extend that to all the provinces?"
Surely not, Allen imagined, and Curzon even admitted to contemplating that would like create a furor at the state department regardless of any good will they presently enjoyed. The cadre's position time and again had always been to recognize the beiyang government in Peking as the legitimate government... and as it related to Tibet as a province one represented in the national assembly.
Curzon's motivations might well have been driven by his time as viceroy of India or as Bill succinctly but it, "He could just be an arrogant son of a bitch." ... but that didn't change the communicated memorandum to the Chinese that the Foreign Secretary wanted to treat Tibet as separate from China as a whole.... or how other powers might then start acting. The anglo-russian accord was in the trash... but there was breathing space there, so the more immediate concern was Manchuria with regards to Japan following Curzon's policy, or the French with regards to Yunnan.
Harding would never say such things were normal. Harding supported the idea of the open door in principle, but what worried the cadre was that even at the beginning there had always been a disagreement between the great powers exactly what was meant by the open door... and Curzon's statement to Peking was worrying. More worrying especially because of exactly what they had become, they had compiled a census of the provinces a census that they had originally prepared to carry out a decade earlier for the old dynasty.
A decade earlier still the cadre not that it had existed as such in 1900 had been a gathering predominantly of young officers who opposed, rejected the old Jeffersonian notions of a provincial, farmer's republic that was as Long had put it was 'safe behind its oceanic walls.' They had been looking for adventure, and a part of voices that had come together to advocate for a more expansive US policy, and the victory in early may had been an affirmation because only an expansive US policy would have insured that they wouldn't languish as lieutenants.
That had been a selfish consideration, but they had all been twenty some things back then. They were older now, more mature now with the adventures of the Philippines behind them, and they'd been here in China for a long time. "I think it would be prudent that we discuss it with Crane's replacement," Which was the problem... they had known that Crane wasn't going to be around forever, and it was all well and good to see a friendly familiar face in the Philippines, and they benefitted from Iseburo being viceroy in all but name on the great lake to the north of themselves. "We got complacent," Hodges admitted after a moment where the heavier set man had glanced around the small room that was crowded with just the six of them favoring his good leg, "We were used to the Legation being stable," So little turn around in Tietsin, and even that hadn't been really accurate... the European war had been an anomaly of course John Jordan and Reinsch would be recalled home and replaced with other men, and there would have been no reason to assume that their replacements would stay on as long... but they had assumed. "So we should talk with the new one, for ever have long the yankee has the post, and Wood in the Philippines."
Bill nodded at the comment, "Phineas has been talking about the railway work in Texas, Edenborn has been busy, and there is talk about a line to Dallas," Whether or not either the Louisianan or the McCulloch family were interested in supporting more rail infrastructure in the Philippines immediately Edenborn could probably be expected to support the founding of schools in the Philippines, agricultural work, and research, and of course efforts to combat disease. That was exactly the idea Powell had for Middle America as well but there would have to be separate commissions ... they had been gone too long from the Philippines to really cement leadership of something like what Powell had underway there, but there was still a lot of work to be done... but that was nothing new.
--
Notes: So first and foremost the computer crash earlier in the summer mulched a couple of the August updates hence rapidly going from July to September as we did, butthis is part of the internetional arc where there is that transitionin the governments of going 'back to normal' on a number of points,and on the British side is Curzon as Foreign Secrectary, Harding hitting the usual US talking points of hte period without actuallycoming out and defining what things like the Open Door actually entailed in the US conception as well as other other policy decisions(and of course there is the naval discussions and other treaty considerations in Washington, there are post war finances, there isthe change of from Wilson to Harding (Harding has only been in office for a handful of months by this point) with Wilson by and large havebeen ignored by the incoming government... which is something that should have otherwise gotten more screen time in the previous updates, but will probably be commented on in the following september updates).
ATP
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So Curzon was cunt in Asia,too.In Europe,he want sell Poland to soviets.Which would lead to soviet Europe,and later England,but idiots in England though like that.
They would toss others to placate monster,and that monster would be nice and do not eat them.
I almost wish that we lost in 1920 and soviet take over,only to see dudes like Curzon in gulag.
They would toss others to placate monster,and that monster would be nice and do not eat them.
I almost wish that we lost in 1920 and soviet take over,only to see dudes like Curzon in gulag.
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
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Curzon from his writings always seemed stuck in the 19th century / pre war political positions and always stuck his foot in his mouth
ATP
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Well,it explain his stupidity.he though,that soviets are still russians...germans made the same mistake in Rapallo,when they allied with soviets.
To be honest,they were lucky that Hitler win election in 1933,any democratic leader would made alliance with Sralin in 1939,but do not have guts to backstab him later.
And soviets in 1942 would take entire Europe,and later Africa and Asia.
We could all be in gulags now.or massgraves.
Faralis
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Not so sure, up as late as 38, everyone feared the Soviets more than the Nazis, and without Hitler, Stalin would probably blunders in Finland and he could have ended at war with almost all of Europe...
September 1921
Imperator Pax
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September 1921
Allen recognized there was more to Curzon's high handed comment to Peking than the man probably realized; it didn't take a genius to see the man seemed intent on replaying the great game. Alston at least seemed to realize that as well, if not perhaps to the extent that the man in Tietsin should have given the disquiet the memorandum had caused. Tibet was the frontier of China. The Anglo Russian treaty's becoming defunct was no great loss, but the cadre was cognizant of the 'unequal treaties' as historical artifice ... but equally so, "The situation with the soviets is one thing that Percy at least admits that much is something, but Tibet is part of the frontier, Tibet, and Xinjiang both have a long border with the Szechwanese and on our side there are longstanding tensions with the Hui."
There was a nod of agreement from the rest of the sub comittee.
In the view of history, after the great war historians would write expansively of how it was domestic policy as much as foreign policy for the Cadre of the day. Then, of course the inevitable round debates about what was idealist versus realist policies of government. In the waning summer, early fall of 1921 the cadre wasn't thinking in those terms, they appeared no where within internal memos or the records kept.
What was kept were the changes of security, and the emphasis of internal bureaucracy taking shape. Ma Hongkui's independent brigades had been operating over the border into Szechwan for years, and that had taken its toll on the units and with little really to show for it. That wasn't to say that they had done nothing, but the expense of the command relative to incomes by the Ma clique had a much harder time in 1921 to justify itself as more and more of its responsibilities, and respectability were subsumed by the emerging provincial authorities.
That Hongkui's Gansu brigades had been adopting reforms as they had come in meant he was also having trouble retaining troops, as well as recruiting replacements. Which was why Allen expected the young Ma general would retire from the military and go into a civilian provincial position, whether he would later make a run for the provincial assembly that was debatable but Hongkui was adamant that what he had undertaken had been against bandits.
Anti-bandit raiding had been the accepted policy after all. It was the old accepted policy. Publicists and official historians were rapidly, since the formalization of the provincial constitutions, had shifted to commenting on the policies as continuations of Qing policies. "These are the estimates," And they were the estimates which were what cemented Xian's military leadership against subsidizing the continuation of those raids.
Domestic cultivation of Opium had begun in China during the Song dynasty, even only in small volumes on the southern frontier, a thousand years earlier, but in the last century consumption of the poppy had so expanded that it was not hundreds of thousands out of a population of hundreds of millions... but rather millions of addicts... China had transformed over the course of the Ming, and Qing by the import of new world crops originally brought by the Portuguese that was very much self evident, and that had fed a growth of both cities and bringing more marginal land under cultivation. Opium cultivation in the south, in szechwan in particular provided a massive financial incentive to the half dozen competing petty tyrants. South China was not just producing opium for the massive consuming populace it was now an exporter... and the money from that trade purchased weapons that the Green Gang in Shanghai to support different factions.
"And is precisely these numbers to which state complains in support of Jordan's embargo." Because it was by the opium trade that the bandits and warlords in the south traded with gangsters for foreign guns and that in turn agitated the New Englanders of high society. It didn't matter the details, all the papers and their readers would care about was that it was part of it. It also didn't change the facts that the embargo demonstrated the critical need to have domestic production. "What do you want to do about it?"
"The proposal for military expansion is premature, in so far as we're not there yet." But if not the scare along the border with the soviets then it was the much more realistic concern with Szechwan's fractious rat nests, "Even if it weren't premature the current legislature," The current lower house wasn't prepared to form a bill for spending and preparing to train new divisions which was ultimately what the Patriotic League was advocating in their broadsheets. Broad sheets that they knew Percy was reading, and were probably being read by both sides of the Legation in Tietsin
"They're getting more coherent."
"Yes, which is why we will move forward with the existing plan for more brigades." Waite replied joining the conversation. They had this conversation almost a year earlier and they were just as likely to have it again because of the publicly available minutes of the cadre. A man should know what the public policy of his government was after all, and Yan Xishan was adamant that despite the statutory strength of the National Guard it was within their means to to field a still larger force. The Dujun of Shansi was not wrong, which was a publicly acceded to matter. "Which goes into have men with the requisite experience to command those formations."
Brigades were as they had argued ten months earlier were combined arms formations, which placed young generals in command of specialist formations with significantly different abilities to even rifle divisions. They were independent minded commands and more so than most were commands where high authority was to outline an objective and expect those one stars to figure out how best to accomplish it in support of the broader objective. It was why the 6th brigade had been built up to support 3rd Division over the past year.
It was very much one thing for staff officers, and men in education to join the general staff to advocate that each Rifle Division, 1st, 3rd, and 8th should be supported by flying, independent brigades but actually in practice the matter of supporting those was a whole other kettle offish. Talking about each Rifle Division having two or three brigades in theory sounded wonderful except when it came to the logistical bottleneck of each such 'battle group' save when they were operating in the close vicinity of the large rail depots and staging grounds.
Szechwan's roads were abominable and the many internal divisions to the sprawling province meant no local strong man had any reason to try and cooperate with his neighbors to construct such public works given the need for constant alertness.
The argument from both 8th's commanding officer, and others was that that also cut the other way. The benefit of a functional government was that their presence in both eastern Tibet, and the Kansu corridor was such that they could effectively build infrastructure and secure their own zone of control over the region. In a way that the Qing had never been able to do, precisely because of lack of roads and lack of sufficient central authority.
That was another reason for the growing pressure inside political society. The professional officer corp lacked the idealistic optimism of their western counterparts either in the states or in England or in western Europe. Especially not with it being impossible to not have Curzon open mouth insert foot for the public to hear about.
"What are you planning to do?" Allen remarked, turning to the Texan.
Bill shrugged, "Well I've talked to Lee, and in a week or so I'll put out a short tract. It won't be anything fancy, but it'll be focused on the responsibilities of an army officer." A trio of responsibilities the first of which was the organizing, equipping and training of the force, "Then I'll probably as an addendum to that point out that while we have the population base to support a larger army and we could probably even get away with having that half a million men on the basis of pre war armies a lot has changed since 1914." The greatest impediment toa mass expansion of the army would be its supply, and the moving of those supplies because of the lack of horses, which only one part of arguments. Officers on the General Staff, and at Xian's war college had drawn up proposals modelled on the British Expeditionary Force of Six Divisions as the nominal triangle division structure of Xian's existing divisions were based on British models. What they were asking for were Six Rifle Divisions intended for expeditionary warfare. That was the more modest of the proposals as the 'aggressive' wing of the staff college called for at minimum supporting brigades for them. In its most conservative form that expansion suggested 6 Rifle Divisions supported by 5 Brigades ...again likely numbers borrowed whole sale by the staff officers from the BEF model ... to be arranged as a Corp.
That was of course the second principle of the professional officer. That the general staff was committed to the formulation of planning for the army's actions. Xian's war planning was predominated by the notion of fighting the Bolsheviks. It studied Iseburo's defense of Irkutsk, and the fortresses, the red legs were asking for rail deployed heavy cannon. Other officers were not just asking for more radios, and spotter planes, but reissuing calls for an independent air force... whether that had anything to do with the formation of the Royal Australian Air Force was debatable.
The final third principle was the direction of operations in and out of combat, and it was in that the third principle that resistance to many of the above expansionary ideas most expressed themselves. The existing division Rifle and Infantry were geographically located. That had done because while the expansion of the army was to reflect the consensus that posse commitatus had no place in North China, that for the Cadre had to be available and active as a peace time instrument of policy both insecurity terms as well as a part of public safety.
"Which is an argument that everyone accepts." Waite replied, 1st, 3rd,and now the 8th routinely, particularly during the months of hard rain after the drought had broken, had to operate in and amongst the provincial civilian population. Cadre policies and management of resources had kept famine at bay of course but flood control was organized through the Corp of Engineers who expected the divisions to contribute during emergencies and that included regular professional troops as well as Guardsmen from the Reserves.
Allen recognized there was more to Curzon's high handed comment to Peking than the man probably realized; it didn't take a genius to see the man seemed intent on replaying the great game. Alston at least seemed to realize that as well, if not perhaps to the extent that the man in Tietsin should have given the disquiet the memorandum had caused. Tibet was the frontier of China. The Anglo Russian treaty's becoming defunct was no great loss, but the cadre was cognizant of the 'unequal treaties' as historical artifice ... but equally so, "The situation with the soviets is one thing that Percy at least admits that much is something, but Tibet is part of the frontier, Tibet, and Xinjiang both have a long border with the Szechwanese and on our side there are longstanding tensions with the Hui."
There was a nod of agreement from the rest of the sub comittee.
In the view of history, after the great war historians would write expansively of how it was domestic policy as much as foreign policy for the Cadre of the day. Then, of course the inevitable round debates about what was idealist versus realist policies of government. In the waning summer, early fall of 1921 the cadre wasn't thinking in those terms, they appeared no where within internal memos or the records kept.
What was kept were the changes of security, and the emphasis of internal bureaucracy taking shape. Ma Hongkui's independent brigades had been operating over the border into Szechwan for years, and that had taken its toll on the units and with little really to show for it. That wasn't to say that they had done nothing, but the expense of the command relative to incomes by the Ma clique had a much harder time in 1921 to justify itself as more and more of its responsibilities, and respectability were subsumed by the emerging provincial authorities.
That Hongkui's Gansu brigades had been adopting reforms as they had come in meant he was also having trouble retaining troops, as well as recruiting replacements. Which was why Allen expected the young Ma general would retire from the military and go into a civilian provincial position, whether he would later make a run for the provincial assembly that was debatable but Hongkui was adamant that what he had undertaken had been against bandits.
Anti-bandit raiding had been the accepted policy after all. It was the old accepted policy. Publicists and official historians were rapidly, since the formalization of the provincial constitutions, had shifted to commenting on the policies as continuations of Qing policies. "These are the estimates," And they were the estimates which were what cemented Xian's military leadership against subsidizing the continuation of those raids.
Domestic cultivation of Opium had begun in China during the Song dynasty, even only in small volumes on the southern frontier, a thousand years earlier, but in the last century consumption of the poppy had so expanded that it was not hundreds of thousands out of a population of hundreds of millions... but rather millions of addicts... China had transformed over the course of the Ming, and Qing by the import of new world crops originally brought by the Portuguese that was very much self evident, and that had fed a growth of both cities and bringing more marginal land under cultivation. Opium cultivation in the south, in szechwan in particular provided a massive financial incentive to the half dozen competing petty tyrants. South China was not just producing opium for the massive consuming populace it was now an exporter... and the money from that trade purchased weapons that the Green Gang in Shanghai to support different factions.
"And is precisely these numbers to which state complains in support of Jordan's embargo." Because it was by the opium trade that the bandits and warlords in the south traded with gangsters for foreign guns and that in turn agitated the New Englanders of high society. It didn't matter the details, all the papers and their readers would care about was that it was part of it. It also didn't change the facts that the embargo demonstrated the critical need to have domestic production. "What do you want to do about it?"
"The proposal for military expansion is premature, in so far as we're not there yet." But if not the scare along the border with the soviets then it was the much more realistic concern with Szechwan's fractious rat nests, "Even if it weren't premature the current legislature," The current lower house wasn't prepared to form a bill for spending and preparing to train new divisions which was ultimately what the Patriotic League was advocating in their broadsheets. Broad sheets that they knew Percy was reading, and were probably being read by both sides of the Legation in Tietsin
"They're getting more coherent."
"Yes, which is why we will move forward with the existing plan for more brigades." Waite replied joining the conversation. They had this conversation almost a year earlier and they were just as likely to have it again because of the publicly available minutes of the cadre. A man should know what the public policy of his government was after all, and Yan Xishan was adamant that despite the statutory strength of the National Guard it was within their means to to field a still larger force. The Dujun of Shansi was not wrong, which was a publicly acceded to matter. "Which goes into have men with the requisite experience to command those formations."
Brigades were as they had argued ten months earlier were combined arms formations, which placed young generals in command of specialist formations with significantly different abilities to even rifle divisions. They were independent minded commands and more so than most were commands where high authority was to outline an objective and expect those one stars to figure out how best to accomplish it in support of the broader objective. It was why the 6th brigade had been built up to support 3rd Division over the past year.
It was very much one thing for staff officers, and men in education to join the general staff to advocate that each Rifle Division, 1st, 3rd, and 8th should be supported by flying, independent brigades but actually in practice the matter of supporting those was a whole other kettle offish. Talking about each Rifle Division having two or three brigades in theory sounded wonderful except when it came to the logistical bottleneck of each such 'battle group' save when they were operating in the close vicinity of the large rail depots and staging grounds.
Szechwan's roads were abominable and the many internal divisions to the sprawling province meant no local strong man had any reason to try and cooperate with his neighbors to construct such public works given the need for constant alertness.
The argument from both 8th's commanding officer, and others was that that also cut the other way. The benefit of a functional government was that their presence in both eastern Tibet, and the Kansu corridor was such that they could effectively build infrastructure and secure their own zone of control over the region. In a way that the Qing had never been able to do, precisely because of lack of roads and lack of sufficient central authority.
That was another reason for the growing pressure inside political society. The professional officer corp lacked the idealistic optimism of their western counterparts either in the states or in England or in western Europe. Especially not with it being impossible to not have Curzon open mouth insert foot for the public to hear about.
"What are you planning to do?" Allen remarked, turning to the Texan.
Bill shrugged, "Well I've talked to Lee, and in a week or so I'll put out a short tract. It won't be anything fancy, but it'll be focused on the responsibilities of an army officer." A trio of responsibilities the first of which was the organizing, equipping and training of the force, "Then I'll probably as an addendum to that point out that while we have the population base to support a larger army and we could probably even get away with having that half a million men on the basis of pre war armies a lot has changed since 1914." The greatest impediment toa mass expansion of the army would be its supply, and the moving of those supplies because of the lack of horses, which only one part of arguments. Officers on the General Staff, and at Xian's war college had drawn up proposals modelled on the British Expeditionary Force of Six Divisions as the nominal triangle division structure of Xian's existing divisions were based on British models. What they were asking for were Six Rifle Divisions intended for expeditionary warfare. That was the more modest of the proposals as the 'aggressive' wing of the staff college called for at minimum supporting brigades for them. In its most conservative form that expansion suggested 6 Rifle Divisions supported by 5 Brigades ...again likely numbers borrowed whole sale by the staff officers from the BEF model ... to be arranged as a Corp.
That was of course the second principle of the professional officer. That the general staff was committed to the formulation of planning for the army's actions. Xian's war planning was predominated by the notion of fighting the Bolsheviks. It studied Iseburo's defense of Irkutsk, and the fortresses, the red legs were asking for rail deployed heavy cannon. Other officers were not just asking for more radios, and spotter planes, but reissuing calls for an independent air force... whether that had anything to do with the formation of the Royal Australian Air Force was debatable.
The final third principle was the direction of operations in and out of combat, and it was in that the third principle that resistance to many of the above expansionary ideas most expressed themselves. The existing division Rifle and Infantry were geographically located. That had done because while the expansion of the army was to reflect the consensus that posse commitatus had no place in North China, that for the Cadre had to be available and active as a peace time instrument of policy both insecurity terms as well as a part of public safety.
"Which is an argument that everyone accepts." Waite replied, 1st, 3rd,and now the 8th routinely, particularly during the months of hard rain after the drought had broken, had to operate in and amongst the provincial civilian population. Cadre policies and management of resources had kept famine at bay of course but flood control was organized through the Corp of Engineers who expected the divisions to contribute during emergencies and that included regular professional troops as well as Guardsmen from the Reserves.
ATP
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Fighting bandits seems as good idea to me.Your army need experienced soldiers,and,if they would soviets in future,then fighting bandits should be enough.
Japan - it is another thing,it would be good to avoid war with them.
Rail guns - good,but planes would be even better.Soviets were infamous for shitty air forces,and Japan had good pilots,but their planes were fragile.Just get some light bomber/maybe invent dive bomber early/ , transport-bomber,and fighter.
You do not need more now.
And any german or A-H fighter prototype from 1918 would be still good at least till to 1930.
Japan - it is another thing,it would be good to avoid war with them.
Rail guns - good,but planes would be even better.Soviets were infamous for shitty air forces,and Japan had good pilots,but their planes were fragile.Just get some light bomber/maybe invent dive bomber early/ , transport-bomber,and fighter.
You do not need more now.
And any german or A-H fighter prototype from 1918 would be still good at least till to 1930.
October 1921
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
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- Sep 11, 2019
- Messages
- 6,138
October 1921
As fall came to north china much of the focus built into business ventures. Kerosene, and coal were to be consumed of course by house holds. They were needed for light and heating and cooking and so forth. Both had been consumed by households long before the Cadre had arrived in Xian, and before they had turned back Bai Lang from the city in the hail of artillery and aimed magazine rifle fire... what had changed though was its consumption after 1914 as the urban character of the city became a center of renewed banking and also industrial work.
It was the industry that facilitated the whole ability to support an army. Spanish silver had flowed into China from the New World since the time of the Ming, Spanish silver coinage, Mexican silver dollars now and since the time of Qianlong had been the currency of choice due to Qing restrictions on Chinese pure silver coinage... and its comparative scarcity. The Mexican silver dollar was and had been ideal for trade... and still was prolifically used.
Xian's central bank held the currency in reserve, but as with Manchuria there were changes as industrialization effected the provinces. The trio of maritime provinces had had their own well planned banking reforms... and now both Xian and Manchuria were well underway to issuing their own paper currency to supersede either the Customs Dollar or the Mexican Silver dollar.
"We're not entirely sure Zhang's actual specie volume but his numbers seem sound," And the paperwork appeared to be in order... it would have so much easier if Zhang Tsolin could have been able to definitively prove he had the ponytail general's specie currency from the bank to which the latter had been the major player behind... but that didn't seem to be the case, "But our own gold reserves are sufficient for our needs." More than sufficient, the train which had originally departed Ekatrinburg and the retreating Czech legions had been loaded with the Tsar's bullion... the Czechs eager to depart the fighting for their newborn country had offered them a portion.
It had never actually gone to a formal cadre vote. The freight cars with the gold had never officially existed on manifest as such. The Cadre had never officially remarked of its intake per se, and its only entry into the official record had been in the lead up to the financial planning commission ahead of the formalization of the provincial constitution under the declared assets. Assets which had of course included the sums paid to industry for war materiel from 1914 hence, just as it included the goods Japan had purchased that were for its civilian markets at home because European goods and American goods could not be readily shipped overseas but could be put upon trains and sent via Korea and across the straits, or from Tietsin or Shanghai to Japanese ports.
The actual decision to implement a domestic currency had been controversial. The only way it had probably survived committee was that local currency had historically been a thing, the history of varied silver currency, historical copper cash, and the use of paper money. Manchuria, and Zhang's reforms had helped clear the last resistance, the remaining hold outs but it had been political hurdles not practical ones that had been in the way. That didn't eliminate the use of the currency dollar, or the Mexican silver dollar those were too ubiquitous in circulation in trade, and they were in no small part because of how the old dynasty had managed their currency.
The map turned to the south, "Sun keeps speaking of using Canton as the springboard of a northern expedition." Waite warned him, reiterating the same warning Cole had made the afternoon previous as part of a different committee, but here Waite was more concerned of the money matter, "Now Chen, and the Cantonese have their own economic development plans, but Sun is a smooth talker."
Jiongming could probably be reasoned with. He wouldn't, or did not seem to be inclined to support any such an expedition. "You'll think he'll pull it off?" Allen questioned. Cullen was certainly concerned that there would be a fight, if not necessarily this year then Sun would do something stupid in the coming one.
"I think Chen could be left be he could do something like us or Zhang are doing, but," But the south was less stable, there was too much uncertainty and too many bandits. "And yeah, I think Sun means to do something stupid, I think he's convinced he has to do it because he's spent so much time talking about it and raising money for it that he has to try and make good on it."
But Canton was far to the south... and while close to Hong Kong, and the river system being what they were it was still far from them. "We will have to watch it, 1stand 3rd divisions will be receiving their magazine rifles," Would be completing the transition over in the new year. It was the primary break with the otherwise excellent idea of 1913 pattern rifle, the decision to go to a detachable magazine. 1st and 3rd and 8th later were regulars and their rifle fire was accurate for it. It was a floor plate change so the reserves would receive rifles with fixed magazines, and from what they understood the missions to the Czechs and Poles alike preferred the increased simplicity of the fixed magazine... so in short they would likely adopt a 'carbine' length 98 version of the 1913 in 8mm Mauser. The Finns seemed like they were going to stick with the old Russian cartridge, but the Poles seemed prepared to make the transition for the cost that the rifle would save them in the long term. "I don't see us needing to push them to Ankang and Zhengzhou at this point."
"Not yet." Waite agreed. "But the truth be told I know we also need to watch the north east, I guess the east in general." He muttered. "A war with Lenin seems inevitable, him and Trotsky, well Trotsky mostly keep talking about this bridge to Germany, world revolution."
"You've been talking to Churchill." It wasn't a question, and the truth was the needed to keep open with the brits "But yeah, I agree. Peace is an imposition of exhaustion or overwhelming force." And while Black Jack had wanted to impose peace by overwhelming force the war in Europe had been peace by exhaustion, and that meant that once they found there feet a continuation was inevitable. He distrusted the bolsheviks more than the new Weimar Germans, but it didn't change the fact that when war came back to Europe it would be with the English speaking world they would trade goods in support.
As fall came to north china much of the focus built into business ventures. Kerosene, and coal were to be consumed of course by house holds. They were needed for light and heating and cooking and so forth. Both had been consumed by households long before the Cadre had arrived in Xian, and before they had turned back Bai Lang from the city in the hail of artillery and aimed magazine rifle fire... what had changed though was its consumption after 1914 as the urban character of the city became a center of renewed banking and also industrial work.
It was the industry that facilitated the whole ability to support an army. Spanish silver had flowed into China from the New World since the time of the Ming, Spanish silver coinage, Mexican silver dollars now and since the time of Qianlong had been the currency of choice due to Qing restrictions on Chinese pure silver coinage... and its comparative scarcity. The Mexican silver dollar was and had been ideal for trade... and still was prolifically used.
Xian's central bank held the currency in reserve, but as with Manchuria there were changes as industrialization effected the provinces. The trio of maritime provinces had had their own well planned banking reforms... and now both Xian and Manchuria were well underway to issuing their own paper currency to supersede either the Customs Dollar or the Mexican Silver dollar.
"We're not entirely sure Zhang's actual specie volume but his numbers seem sound," And the paperwork appeared to be in order... it would have so much easier if Zhang Tsolin could have been able to definitively prove he had the ponytail general's specie currency from the bank to which the latter had been the major player behind... but that didn't seem to be the case, "But our own gold reserves are sufficient for our needs." More than sufficient, the train which had originally departed Ekatrinburg and the retreating Czech legions had been loaded with the Tsar's bullion... the Czechs eager to depart the fighting for their newborn country had offered them a portion.
It had never actually gone to a formal cadre vote. The freight cars with the gold had never officially existed on manifest as such. The Cadre had never officially remarked of its intake per se, and its only entry into the official record had been in the lead up to the financial planning commission ahead of the formalization of the provincial constitution under the declared assets. Assets which had of course included the sums paid to industry for war materiel from 1914 hence, just as it included the goods Japan had purchased that were for its civilian markets at home because European goods and American goods could not be readily shipped overseas but could be put upon trains and sent via Korea and across the straits, or from Tietsin or Shanghai to Japanese ports.
The actual decision to implement a domestic currency had been controversial. The only way it had probably survived committee was that local currency had historically been a thing, the history of varied silver currency, historical copper cash, and the use of paper money. Manchuria, and Zhang's reforms had helped clear the last resistance, the remaining hold outs but it had been political hurdles not practical ones that had been in the way. That didn't eliminate the use of the currency dollar, or the Mexican silver dollar those were too ubiquitous in circulation in trade, and they were in no small part because of how the old dynasty had managed their currency.
The map turned to the south, "Sun keeps speaking of using Canton as the springboard of a northern expedition." Waite warned him, reiterating the same warning Cole had made the afternoon previous as part of a different committee, but here Waite was more concerned of the money matter, "Now Chen, and the Cantonese have their own economic development plans, but Sun is a smooth talker."
Jiongming could probably be reasoned with. He wouldn't, or did not seem to be inclined to support any such an expedition. "You'll think he'll pull it off?" Allen questioned. Cullen was certainly concerned that there would be a fight, if not necessarily this year then Sun would do something stupid in the coming one.
"I think Chen could be left be he could do something like us or Zhang are doing, but," But the south was less stable, there was too much uncertainty and too many bandits. "And yeah, I think Sun means to do something stupid, I think he's convinced he has to do it because he's spent so much time talking about it and raising money for it that he has to try and make good on it."
But Canton was far to the south... and while close to Hong Kong, and the river system being what they were it was still far from them. "We will have to watch it, 1stand 3rd divisions will be receiving their magazine rifles," Would be completing the transition over in the new year. It was the primary break with the otherwise excellent idea of 1913 pattern rifle, the decision to go to a detachable magazine. 1st and 3rd and 8th later were regulars and their rifle fire was accurate for it. It was a floor plate change so the reserves would receive rifles with fixed magazines, and from what they understood the missions to the Czechs and Poles alike preferred the increased simplicity of the fixed magazine... so in short they would likely adopt a 'carbine' length 98 version of the 1913 in 8mm Mauser. The Finns seemed like they were going to stick with the old Russian cartridge, but the Poles seemed prepared to make the transition for the cost that the rifle would save them in the long term. "I don't see us needing to push them to Ankang and Zhengzhou at this point."
"Not yet." Waite agreed. "But the truth be told I know we also need to watch the north east, I guess the east in general." He muttered. "A war with Lenin seems inevitable, him and Trotsky, well Trotsky mostly keep talking about this bridge to Germany, world revolution."
"You've been talking to Churchill." It wasn't a question, and the truth was the needed to keep open with the brits "But yeah, I agree. Peace is an imposition of exhaustion or overwhelming force." And while Black Jack had wanted to impose peace by overwhelming force the war in Europe had been peace by exhaustion, and that meant that once they found there feet a continuation was inevitable. He distrusted the bolsheviks more than the new Weimar Germans, but it didn't change the fact that when war came back to Europe it would be with the English speaking world they would trade goods in support.
ATP
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According to what i read,soviets made alliance with germans in 1922,and all german goverments till Hitler tried to made another partition of Poland with them - but,soviets still tried to made revolution there in 1926,and in 1926,when Piłsudzki made his putch in Poland,they belived that it is England work,and that they use united forces of Poland and germany to attack soviets with 120 dyvisions.
Which is bullshit,Poland was in cold war with Germany,end even if we allied,we could gather max 50 divisions then.
So,soviets in those times were really strange - they at the same time allied with germans,planned to conqer them,and feared german attack....
Which is bullshit,Poland was in cold war with Germany,end even if we allied,we could gather max 50 divisions then.
So,soviets in those times were really strange - they at the same time allied with germans,planned to conqer them,and feared german attack....
October 1921
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2019
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- 6,138
October 1921
The cable from Powell was a report from Washington, not from Middle America... though no doubt the rest of the MAK there had put together their own reports... or were in the process of doing so. Allen though understood that Powell was free to communicate whatever he personally thought, where as the more junior cadre was no doubt in committee trying to determine how best to make good of the situation.
The idea of a central american republic had great appeal in the States, and with the state department's latin america desk. The proposal in September had been to make the honduran town, he'd spent so long in Asia it was too small to call it a city, of Tegucigalpa capital of the proposed reunified republic. Powell believed that the success of reunification of El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras could only be a good thing... and likely he must have been confident in the state department's support.
"What do you think?"
"Ultimately what he's asking for is a fresh round of investment." Into Honduras to expand their holdings there," Powell had outlined his thinking that if they could just invest into Honduras as they had done in Guatemala that it would stabilize the country by discouraging rebels from being able to hide in the countryside. That was probably optimistic, though expanding the great trunk would help but more realistic was his recommendation for further arms sales of goods under a proposal for a standard 'CAR' Army... and the railway expansion ideas were all well and good as well. "I expect Powell has the good sense to have learned what we got right, and where we had trouble... and he'll be closer to home."
Allen nodded to the response. That was all probably very true but he could also easily see that being closer to the states ... and the state department would be double edged. He wasn't entirely convinced on how well the three existing independent republics were going to fit back together and reunify either. Not easily anyway.
Powell had made a lot of hay over how small, relative to China, Honduras and even for that matter Guetemala were. Shansi by itself was larger than the three countries all together which amounted to a little under four million people. That was however still a lot of people, and Powell thought that they'd benefit from immigration from Europe and Asia as the manpower flowed in to build and staff new industries much as the States had two generations earlier. That was optimistic, for a number of reasons, but ultimately still boiled down to money.
They had invited them in years ago, but the ability to actually build railways, when the States were subject and still subject to some war time controls had meant that they had already outstripped what United Fruit had been able to construct on their own. That wasn't to say the telegraph and rail lines, and mail services that the banana man's people had been doing at the government's behest hadn't been an important first step, but they had been able to expand upon that and with alacrity do so while attention was elsewhere. The fact that there were now having problems at home on Wall Street or among share holders and competition with other fruit companies... as the average soldier came home with money in his pocket, well...
... well that was hardly cadre business. Powell certainly seemed convinced it shouldn't be an issue... but Powell focused as he was on his own backyard, and his own area of operations, was not looking at China. There was a pause, "There is the other thing, the Pashas are gone now, but the army still is in the same mess." That also probably wasn't the companies business, but Allen let the other man continue, "I think, regardless of what the British, and the States think, that if we accept that this is half time at best, then it would behoove us," And here from across Dawes started to stir, and look at the speaker "that we suggest strongly to who we can not just the adoption of the heavier 200 grain bullet our mausers shoot but the adoption of the simplified M1918," What was just an 8mm version of the Enfield 1914/17 pattern.
It would not be well received by the men in Europe and in England who insisted that peace was here to stay. In Eastern Europe where the Bolsheviks were near by and in the center where things were even more uncertain, especially with so many young governments born out of the war. It was likely to be unpopular with Britain and France because it was the German cartridge, but it was something they could easily manage, and the cartridge was common.
It was unlikely to effect countries with established arms industries or wide ranging holdings. England would go back to the [Lee] Enfield because the army was rapidly shrinking back down, and the lee Enfield did have nice features even if the brits kept their damned dwarf. The cadre, in committee, had even in the face of John Jordan's foolhardy and infuriating arms embargo spoken of how if only England the States would agree to commonly adopt the Government cartridge, 3006, then it would justify the cadre changing over. That had been a minority position but it had still been discussed; such that the MAK had a small minority agreeing.
"And where," Here Dawes paused, "Exactly all would this commission range for?"
"The Czechs, obviously," The unified state of czechoslovakia, "The balkans," Yugoslavia, "The Turks," And at that point the conversation dissolved into an argument for which there was little hope of holding a civil conversation, whatever the original point of the discussion or the logic of so many countries which were now building armies and who would benefit from the economy of scale selling such a singular model of rifle design firing a modern cartridge could entail.
It was so far as such subjects when an issue of realism versus idealism in political theory. There was a logic that called for and recognized the utility of the excellence of the Pattern 1913 and its action, and the ubiquitous commonality of the cartridge coupled with other features ... but then there was the political dimension It didn't matter the confusion of post war arsenals there was also the question of money too, which was the larger practical hurdle to any such things.
Some hours later Dawes sat on one side of the table, "We also don't know who will side with who in the next go round." The prevailing wisdom in Paris, and London was that the Germans and Soviets both were pariahs, but that they wouldn't make common cause. Allen wasn't convinced of that. Black Jack had written that the Germans should have been pursued by force all the way to Berlin and to not to do so meant there would have to be a war, because the Germans hadn't been shown to be defeated in battle. That the only way done would have been to force their unconditional surrender, and in spite of that the French had still dictated peace... that was going to have consequences. "The reichsmark is losing value, that's good for us John, we can pay men like we always have in dollars, or pounds and in truth they'll be plenty who will leave Germany for better lives abroad, Austria too but Lloyd George wants to invite them and the Bolsheviks to the convention next year in Italy."
That had been of course before George the Fifth had been shot and before the outcry, so the Welsh wizard still had the chance to disavow it, but it was equally possible the pressured to return to the gold standard would in addition to the mess made of the continent force the conference forward.
"We will have to wait and see, but Europe is a long way off," He replied, "And Canton, and Sun are much closer, and much more likely to give us a headache sooner." As Jun had reminded him, and was likely to do so again when he returned home this evening. "Is there anything else?"
"Yeah, I don't think this proposal came out of the aether. The lower house wants to sponsor a bill endorsing the creation of an independent air force."
"Oh really?"
"They have the numbers to support the taxes for it, and also for an expanded fact finding mission to the continent." Dawes continued. "And also we know from Zhang that England and Italy will both flaunt John Jordan's embargo when it comes to aircraft." Allen had already heard as much from Percy, just as Percy had no issue assuring them that Vickers would happily allow them access to tanks. It established, with Zhang being able to purchase them, that John Jordan's embargo with the old man gone would have only a narrow reading of articles effected. "So ironically if we do start selling rifles and such to other countries well..."
"If we get to that point I will write to John Jordan on the cadre's behalf." He replied, "Aircraft mission to the continent, that will be easy to approve... and a standing air force?"
"Cullen circulated a copy of Smutts report that lead to the RAF but they had the advantage of having a larger body of fliers for the war,"
"They were reduced to a tenth of their war time numbers," He replied. Ten years ago in 1914 the idea of having 300 thousand or even just a quarter of a million men under arms in the army would have been a lot... "The current flying apparatus is largely a reconnaissance one, does the lower house understand that?"
"We will have to see."
"What about engine production for this air force, from what I recall the armed forces committee and the road committee in the lower house are all for cars and trucks?"
Dawes glanced at Waite and spread his hands in a plaintive gesture.
The cable from Powell was a report from Washington, not from Middle America... though no doubt the rest of the MAK there had put together their own reports... or were in the process of doing so. Allen though understood that Powell was free to communicate whatever he personally thought, where as the more junior cadre was no doubt in committee trying to determine how best to make good of the situation.
The idea of a central american republic had great appeal in the States, and with the state department's latin america desk. The proposal in September had been to make the honduran town, he'd spent so long in Asia it was too small to call it a city, of Tegucigalpa capital of the proposed reunified republic. Powell believed that the success of reunification of El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras could only be a good thing... and likely he must have been confident in the state department's support.
"What do you think?"
"Ultimately what he's asking for is a fresh round of investment." Into Honduras to expand their holdings there," Powell had outlined his thinking that if they could just invest into Honduras as they had done in Guatemala that it would stabilize the country by discouraging rebels from being able to hide in the countryside. That was probably optimistic, though expanding the great trunk would help but more realistic was his recommendation for further arms sales of goods under a proposal for a standard 'CAR' Army... and the railway expansion ideas were all well and good as well. "I expect Powell has the good sense to have learned what we got right, and where we had trouble... and he'll be closer to home."
Allen nodded to the response. That was all probably very true but he could also easily see that being closer to the states ... and the state department would be double edged. He wasn't entirely convinced on how well the three existing independent republics were going to fit back together and reunify either. Not easily anyway.
Powell had made a lot of hay over how small, relative to China, Honduras and even for that matter Guetemala were. Shansi by itself was larger than the three countries all together which amounted to a little under four million people. That was however still a lot of people, and Powell thought that they'd benefit from immigration from Europe and Asia as the manpower flowed in to build and staff new industries much as the States had two generations earlier. That was optimistic, for a number of reasons, but ultimately still boiled down to money.
They had invited them in years ago, but the ability to actually build railways, when the States were subject and still subject to some war time controls had meant that they had already outstripped what United Fruit had been able to construct on their own. That wasn't to say the telegraph and rail lines, and mail services that the banana man's people had been doing at the government's behest hadn't been an important first step, but they had been able to expand upon that and with alacrity do so while attention was elsewhere. The fact that there were now having problems at home on Wall Street or among share holders and competition with other fruit companies... as the average soldier came home with money in his pocket, well...
... well that was hardly cadre business. Powell certainly seemed convinced it shouldn't be an issue... but Powell focused as he was on his own backyard, and his own area of operations, was not looking at China. There was a pause, "There is the other thing, the Pashas are gone now, but the army still is in the same mess." That also probably wasn't the companies business, but Allen let the other man continue, "I think, regardless of what the British, and the States think, that if we accept that this is half time at best, then it would behoove us," And here from across Dawes started to stir, and look at the speaker "that we suggest strongly to who we can not just the adoption of the heavier 200 grain bullet our mausers shoot but the adoption of the simplified M1918," What was just an 8mm version of the Enfield 1914/17 pattern.
It would not be well received by the men in Europe and in England who insisted that peace was here to stay. In Eastern Europe where the Bolsheviks were near by and in the center where things were even more uncertain, especially with so many young governments born out of the war. It was likely to be unpopular with Britain and France because it was the German cartridge, but it was something they could easily manage, and the cartridge was common.
It was unlikely to effect countries with established arms industries or wide ranging holdings. England would go back to the [Lee] Enfield because the army was rapidly shrinking back down, and the lee Enfield did have nice features even if the brits kept their damned dwarf. The cadre, in committee, had even in the face of John Jordan's foolhardy and infuriating arms embargo spoken of how if only England the States would agree to commonly adopt the Government cartridge, 3006, then it would justify the cadre changing over. That had been a minority position but it had still been discussed; such that the MAK had a small minority agreeing.
"And where," Here Dawes paused, "Exactly all would this commission range for?"
"The Czechs, obviously," The unified state of czechoslovakia, "The balkans," Yugoslavia, "The Turks," And at that point the conversation dissolved into an argument for which there was little hope of holding a civil conversation, whatever the original point of the discussion or the logic of so many countries which were now building armies and who would benefit from the economy of scale selling such a singular model of rifle design firing a modern cartridge could entail.
It was so far as such subjects when an issue of realism versus idealism in political theory. There was a logic that called for and recognized the utility of the excellence of the Pattern 1913 and its action, and the ubiquitous commonality of the cartridge coupled with other features ... but then there was the political dimension It didn't matter the confusion of post war arsenals there was also the question of money too, which was the larger practical hurdle to any such things.
Some hours later Dawes sat on one side of the table, "We also don't know who will side with who in the next go round." The prevailing wisdom in Paris, and London was that the Germans and Soviets both were pariahs, but that they wouldn't make common cause. Allen wasn't convinced of that. Black Jack had written that the Germans should have been pursued by force all the way to Berlin and to not to do so meant there would have to be a war, because the Germans hadn't been shown to be defeated in battle. That the only way done would have been to force their unconditional surrender, and in spite of that the French had still dictated peace... that was going to have consequences. "The reichsmark is losing value, that's good for us John, we can pay men like we always have in dollars, or pounds and in truth they'll be plenty who will leave Germany for better lives abroad, Austria too but Lloyd George wants to invite them and the Bolsheviks to the convention next year in Italy."
That had been of course before George the Fifth had been shot and before the outcry, so the Welsh wizard still had the chance to disavow it, but it was equally possible the pressured to return to the gold standard would in addition to the mess made of the continent force the conference forward.
"We will have to wait and see, but Europe is a long way off," He replied, "And Canton, and Sun are much closer, and much more likely to give us a headache sooner." As Jun had reminded him, and was likely to do so again when he returned home this evening. "Is there anything else?"
"Yeah, I don't think this proposal came out of the aether. The lower house wants to sponsor a bill endorsing the creation of an independent air force."
"Oh really?"
"They have the numbers to support the taxes for it, and also for an expanded fact finding mission to the continent." Dawes continued. "And also we know from Zhang that England and Italy will both flaunt John Jordan's embargo when it comes to aircraft." Allen had already heard as much from Percy, just as Percy had no issue assuring them that Vickers would happily allow them access to tanks. It established, with Zhang being able to purchase them, that John Jordan's embargo with the old man gone would have only a narrow reading of articles effected. "So ironically if we do start selling rifles and such to other countries well..."
"If we get to that point I will write to John Jordan on the cadre's behalf." He replied, "Aircraft mission to the continent, that will be easy to approve... and a standing air force?"
"Cullen circulated a copy of Smutts report that lead to the RAF but they had the advantage of having a larger body of fliers for the war,"
"They were reduced to a tenth of their war time numbers," He replied. Ten years ago in 1914 the idea of having 300 thousand or even just a quarter of a million men under arms in the army would have been a lot... "The current flying apparatus is largely a reconnaissance one, does the lower house understand that?"
"We will have to see."
"What about engine production for this air force, from what I recall the armed forces committee and the road committee in the lower house are all for cars and trucks?"
Dawes glanced at Waite and spread his hands in a plaintive gesture.
ATP
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Thanks for chapter !
1.United fruit company would get state - do not matter,they stolen from indian their land there anyway in OTL.And do not need state for that.
2.There was still Turkey-Greece war then,so:
Weapons for balkans - if they sell more to Turkey,they could win quickly and keep more land.
If they sell more to Greece,they could hold more land,or even destroy Turkey.They almost did it in OTL
Or,you could change notching by giving the same amount of weapons to both sides.Your decision,you could have OTL countries,stronger Greece,or stronger Turkey.Whatever suit you better.
Czech - they had Skods factory,so they do not need your weapons.But Poland in 1920 do not have even rifle factory,si we should buy from your China here.If we buy more,including some good stuff for production in Poland,we could fight better in 1939.
We had ammo for 3-6 months of fighting,but fall after one.
3.Air forces - good idea,but you need constructor.Julius von Berg who made Aviatik/Berg fighters for A-H would be best,becouse his planes were as good as others,but easiest to made.Even in bicycle manufactures.
And you arleady welcomed Otto Hieronymus for making engines,so you do not need another.Well,if dude do not die here in car crash,like in OTL....
When Ferdynand Porshe left in Austria,and could help german lost war like in OTL making useless things for Hitler.
And,you could sell both planes and licence for production to Poland,so we would have some good planes in 1939 to fight longer.
1.United fruit company would get state - do not matter,they stolen from indian their land there anyway in OTL.And do not need state for that.
2.There was still Turkey-Greece war then,so:
Weapons for balkans - if they sell more to Turkey,they could win quickly and keep more land.
If they sell more to Greece,they could hold more land,or even destroy Turkey.They almost did it in OTL
Or,you could change notching by giving the same amount of weapons to both sides.Your decision,you could have OTL countries,stronger Greece,or stronger Turkey.Whatever suit you better.
Czech - they had Skods factory,so they do not need your weapons.But Poland in 1920 do not have even rifle factory,si we should buy from your China here.If we buy more,including some good stuff for production in Poland,we could fight better in 1939.
We had ammo for 3-6 months of fighting,but fall after one.
3.Air forces - good idea,but you need constructor.Julius von Berg who made Aviatik/Berg fighters for A-H would be best,becouse his planes were as good as others,but easiest to made.Even in bicycle manufactures.
And you arleady welcomed Otto Hieronymus for making engines,so you do not need another.Well,if dude do not die here in car crash,like in OTL....
When Ferdynand Porshe left in Austria,and could help german lost war like in OTL making useless things for Hitler.
And,you could sell both planes and licence for production to Poland,so we would have some good planes in 1939 to fight longer.
November 1921
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2019
- Messages
- 6,138
November 1921
Integration was the priority. Effective integration. The machinery would increase productivity, and easy transport would make life easier.
Coal, steel, oil, and then the logistics to move it all the railways, electrical power to expand factors it all fed back into the system. They had arrived in China to find the domestic coal was subject to the boom and bust cycles of seasonal demand... most coal was being dug out in the winter months for heating houses for quick use and not generally stored. Throughout the year far less coal was dug out for heating houses yes, but also for cooking in the home.
That had been a decade ago, and the coal fired railways had been the sensible practical decision. It was true he had told the old man that diesel was going to be the future... and frankly that was still true, but there was also electrification... he hadn't seen that in 1910 as being right around the corner. Electrification had been driven by the war time expansion, of building power plants for even larger factories to sustain output for three then four shifts during the peak years in1916. That electrical capacity now went into new production housing for the expanded workforce and the towns expanding.
Those people were building, and operating both the full size railways and the inter urbans, as well as the carriages, and engines that were being put into service or being shipped out. They were also forming the expanding steel, and oil industry capacity. There was also the new wider paved roads, and the automobiles which would use them, and the factory there would employ another ten thousand people before it expanded.
There were places where it simply wasn't practical to grade for inter urbans, and there were more frequently than that the need to move daily loads for deliveries. The municipal governments and county governments would need such trucks, other smaller firms would, but it would be some time before car ownership trickled down for the average working man. Ironically as the roads improved more like gentry farmers would make the expenditure, the investment in trucks first, and shopkeepers after them.
Rationalized was a watch word and far less dirty in public than monopoly had become in the states as arguments over the trusts sprang up. Steel though was the building block of industry without it you couldn't do anything. Pig iron concentrated high carbon that gave you the working step for making rude steel, as well as finishing out and that was the building block that the mills worked from, even though during the war with demand being what it was they'd been selling pig iron to the British cause the war just demanded so much of it... to the point of driving prices per ton to never before seen heights.
He didn't expect anything like that not any time soon. The fighting, that was still going on in Europe at least in the east... and the spanish fighting too he supposed but to an even lesser extent, lacked the raw volume of demand of the big war in Europe. The same with farmers in the Midwest especially... they had had it worse. Europe's demand for midwestern grain had convinced the farmers to take on loans as the French took out loans and the farmers brought increasingly marginal land under cultivation and the now the French were acting like they shouldn't have to pay back the loans and had placed tariffs in the way of American crops... the same crops that had kept the french from starving.
The war had expanded necessary steel production and the railways before that had already been demanding the integrated firms produce steel in increasing loads. So Xian sat now with a lot of steel capacity. More importantly, the cadre had from that pig iron production, and integrated factory the ability to manage local rolled steel needs running off of a domestic labor force.
That was actually part of the thing. Pretty much everyone in the many thousand strong work force made enough income to meet the requirements for the franchise under the Qing rules for the vote. The labor force was also large enough that they needed schools for their children, which had already been expected in 1914.
That brought back the matter of the inter urbans.
Allen walked around the map diagrams occupying the thirteen foot table.
The officers from the Corp of Engineers were mostly at rest sitting. A handful of men, in the process of studying the problem. Two of them followed behind throwing the occasional glance at the maps.
He came to a stop, and glanced to the nearest, "Could you grab me the Mitsui financial reports, there is something I need to have checked." He ordered the staff officer. It wasn't directly related to their railway concerns, but... his thoughts were on the Hankou area mines that Mitsui had loaned, and Mitsui's other activities. Han Yeh Ping had been taking loans from Mitsui for decades and supplied Japan massive quantities of iron ore.
Mitsui, or its subsidiaries, and its competitors bought pig iron from abroad. More than three quarters of pig iron that Japan needed came in from overseas. That was why Han Yeh Ping been so important at the turn of the century and why Mitsui as creditor had leveraged the government to secure ownership of it as the mines down in hupeh had fallen increasingly into debt.
Mitsui was a tiny steel producer by comparison... because its production wasn't rational, and because it was dependent on a lengthy supply chain. Even if they were integrated Mitsui chemical was simply small. That was of course the thing most of the men didn't hadn't immediately grasp.
Mitsui was a great trading house, were ancient venerable even merchants. The zaibatsu was a grand affair who had come out of the Meiji era with mines, and banks to bolster their wealth, but they were one great name of several. It had mines, and money, but its steel production even twenty years now was tiny, because Japan as a whole didn't produce all that much steel a year. Maybe a million tons and Xian... Xian with its handful of contiguous provinces, never mind need to ship over to middle America in some cases, the need for bar stock, rods, and the rest...
"Electrical power," He remarked, "Will provide lights for homes," Much like it lit factories, "It will also support the facilities down the road to forge specialty steels. We have an abundance of aluminum ore, that needs electricity to be refined."
Aluminum was much cheaper now than when he'd been a boy, but that was a facet of how mills had evolved. Better living through chemistry. Electricity would do everyone a lot of good, if they could make it cheap enough. That was really the focus of this. The British demand for goods during the war had brought in capital, and had driven the price up, and the Japanese had wanted to build up their fleet so their demand hadn't decreased.
The talks in Washington that were starting were necessary for Japan. She couldn't spend the money, neither could England, and the Congress back home didn't want to spend the money. That wasn't quite the same thing, but navy's were aghastly expensive thing and it was the one thing the founding fathers had demanded the congress fund and so the legislature back home bristled at the obligation put upon them.
Xian didn't have a navy. There were rivers, but any funds the cadre spent on ocean going would be chartering transport ships for trade, not battleships like Tillman suggested building before the Carolinian had passed away.
--
Notes: Let me put this in perspective Japan in the 20s produced about a million tons per year, Luxembourg for one year of comparison produced 2.2M tons per annum. The US produced 60 million tons per year, and cheaper as a result of that, largely as a direct result of integration, and particularly abundant electrical engineering.
Now Japan got on the electrical wagon pretty quickly, but the majority of steel production occurred in one steel works and that was dependent on significant imports from...central china. Japan had also besides ore access needed coal imports. [Additionally a lot of Japan's electrical work went directly into their chemical industry] Now where Japan proceeded to fuck up, that the Japanese government in the name of supporting small businesses demanded government contracts sub contract out to well effectively cottage industry outfits that were politically influential but we will get into that later.
Integration was the priority. Effective integration. The machinery would increase productivity, and easy transport would make life easier.
Coal, steel, oil, and then the logistics to move it all the railways, electrical power to expand factors it all fed back into the system. They had arrived in China to find the domestic coal was subject to the boom and bust cycles of seasonal demand... most coal was being dug out in the winter months for heating houses for quick use and not generally stored. Throughout the year far less coal was dug out for heating houses yes, but also for cooking in the home.
That had been a decade ago, and the coal fired railways had been the sensible practical decision. It was true he had told the old man that diesel was going to be the future... and frankly that was still true, but there was also electrification... he hadn't seen that in 1910 as being right around the corner. Electrification had been driven by the war time expansion, of building power plants for even larger factories to sustain output for three then four shifts during the peak years in1916. That electrical capacity now went into new production housing for the expanded workforce and the towns expanding.
Those people were building, and operating both the full size railways and the inter urbans, as well as the carriages, and engines that were being put into service or being shipped out. They were also forming the expanding steel, and oil industry capacity. There was also the new wider paved roads, and the automobiles which would use them, and the factory there would employ another ten thousand people before it expanded.
There were places where it simply wasn't practical to grade for inter urbans, and there were more frequently than that the need to move daily loads for deliveries. The municipal governments and county governments would need such trucks, other smaller firms would, but it would be some time before car ownership trickled down for the average working man. Ironically as the roads improved more like gentry farmers would make the expenditure, the investment in trucks first, and shopkeepers after them.
Rationalized was a watch word and far less dirty in public than monopoly had become in the states as arguments over the trusts sprang up. Steel though was the building block of industry without it you couldn't do anything. Pig iron concentrated high carbon that gave you the working step for making rude steel, as well as finishing out and that was the building block that the mills worked from, even though during the war with demand being what it was they'd been selling pig iron to the British cause the war just demanded so much of it... to the point of driving prices per ton to never before seen heights.
He didn't expect anything like that not any time soon. The fighting, that was still going on in Europe at least in the east... and the spanish fighting too he supposed but to an even lesser extent, lacked the raw volume of demand of the big war in Europe. The same with farmers in the Midwest especially... they had had it worse. Europe's demand for midwestern grain had convinced the farmers to take on loans as the French took out loans and the farmers brought increasingly marginal land under cultivation and the now the French were acting like they shouldn't have to pay back the loans and had placed tariffs in the way of American crops... the same crops that had kept the french from starving.
The war had expanded necessary steel production and the railways before that had already been demanding the integrated firms produce steel in increasing loads. So Xian sat now with a lot of steel capacity. More importantly, the cadre had from that pig iron production, and integrated factory the ability to manage local rolled steel needs running off of a domestic labor force.
That was actually part of the thing. Pretty much everyone in the many thousand strong work force made enough income to meet the requirements for the franchise under the Qing rules for the vote. The labor force was also large enough that they needed schools for their children, which had already been expected in 1914.
That brought back the matter of the inter urbans.
Allen walked around the map diagrams occupying the thirteen foot table.
The officers from the Corp of Engineers were mostly at rest sitting. A handful of men, in the process of studying the problem. Two of them followed behind throwing the occasional glance at the maps.
He came to a stop, and glanced to the nearest, "Could you grab me the Mitsui financial reports, there is something I need to have checked." He ordered the staff officer. It wasn't directly related to their railway concerns, but... his thoughts were on the Hankou area mines that Mitsui had loaned, and Mitsui's other activities. Han Yeh Ping had been taking loans from Mitsui for decades and supplied Japan massive quantities of iron ore.
Mitsui, or its subsidiaries, and its competitors bought pig iron from abroad. More than three quarters of pig iron that Japan needed came in from overseas. That was why Han Yeh Ping been so important at the turn of the century and why Mitsui as creditor had leveraged the government to secure ownership of it as the mines down in hupeh had fallen increasingly into debt.
Mitsui was a tiny steel producer by comparison... because its production wasn't rational, and because it was dependent on a lengthy supply chain. Even if they were integrated Mitsui chemical was simply small. That was of course the thing most of the men didn't hadn't immediately grasp.
Mitsui was a great trading house, were ancient venerable even merchants. The zaibatsu was a grand affair who had come out of the Meiji era with mines, and banks to bolster their wealth, but they were one great name of several. It had mines, and money, but its steel production even twenty years now was tiny, because Japan as a whole didn't produce all that much steel a year. Maybe a million tons and Xian... Xian with its handful of contiguous provinces, never mind need to ship over to middle America in some cases, the need for bar stock, rods, and the rest...
"Electrical power," He remarked, "Will provide lights for homes," Much like it lit factories, "It will also support the facilities down the road to forge specialty steels. We have an abundance of aluminum ore, that needs electricity to be refined."
Aluminum was much cheaper now than when he'd been a boy, but that was a facet of how mills had evolved. Better living through chemistry. Electricity would do everyone a lot of good, if they could make it cheap enough. That was really the focus of this. The British demand for goods during the war had brought in capital, and had driven the price up, and the Japanese had wanted to build up their fleet so their demand hadn't decreased.
The talks in Washington that were starting were necessary for Japan. She couldn't spend the money, neither could England, and the Congress back home didn't want to spend the money. That wasn't quite the same thing, but navy's were aghastly expensive thing and it was the one thing the founding fathers had demanded the congress fund and so the legislature back home bristled at the obligation put upon them.
Xian didn't have a navy. There were rivers, but any funds the cadre spent on ocean going would be chartering transport ships for trade, not battleships like Tillman suggested building before the Carolinian had passed away.
--
Notes: Let me put this in perspective Japan in the 20s produced about a million tons per year, Luxembourg for one year of comparison produced 2.2M tons per annum. The US produced 60 million tons per year, and cheaper as a result of that, largely as a direct result of integration, and particularly abundant electrical engineering.
Now Japan got on the electrical wagon pretty quickly, but the majority of steel production occurred in one steel works and that was dependent on significant imports from...central china. Japan had also besides ore access needed coal imports. [Additionally a lot of Japan's electrical work went directly into their chemical industry] Now where Japan proceeded to fuck up, that the Japanese government in the name of supporting small businesses demanded government contracts sub contract out to well effectively cottage industry outfits that were politically influential but we will get into that later.
ATP
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Well,everybody need Washington treaty to build less - but i still prefer if they let build as big battleships as possible.It would change notching,but WW2 would be more funny.
And let everybody sell their older warships to other countries,including Canada,Australia and South Africa.
Again,it would change notching,but would be funny.aibatsu in Japan - it was good tool to develop technology witchout being dependent on other countries,but in long run it made them more vulnerable.
About China - i am reading book written by soviet paintner and spy Mikołaj Rerich about his journey through China and Tibet in 1923-1926.
According to what he wrote everybody in India and China loved soviets,brits were bad,and local chineese officials corrupted and unefficient.Which actually could be true.
And they fight each other,gubernator of Kaszgar, T-Taj Ma,was crufixied by his enemies and killed after 2 days of dying.
If half of his worlds are true,then your China need a lot of help.
And his book is full of shit about coming Maitreya who is Jesus,Mahdi and Krisna.
Interesting if he really belived in that shitoor it was part of his work as spy in India later.
And let everybody sell their older warships to other countries,including Canada,Australia and South Africa.
Again,it would change notching,but would be funny.aibatsu in Japan - it was good tool to develop technology witchout being dependent on other countries,but in long run it made them more vulnerable.
About China - i am reading book written by soviet paintner and spy Mikołaj Rerich about his journey through China and Tibet in 1923-1926.
According to what he wrote everybody in India and China loved soviets,brits were bad,and local chineese officials corrupted and unefficient.Which actually could be true.
And they fight each other,gubernator of Kaszgar, T-Taj Ma,was crufixied by his enemies and killed after 2 days of dying.
If half of his worlds are true,then your China need a lot of help.
And his book is full of shit about coming Maitreya who is Jesus,Mahdi and Krisna.
Interesting if he really belived in that shitoor it was part of his work as spy in India later.
Imperator Pax
Talon Master
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In all honesty, if Washington had not gone through, you would probably have gotten a war in Europe, but it might well have aborted the war in the pacific simply because the US would be outspending the UK, and the UK probably would be more concerned with Imperial defense and without WNT the phillipines and Hawaii would be better protected and the resulting naval ratio would probably result in Japan recognizing they didn't have the margin
Does nothing to stop Weimar Germany or the Nazi problems but the result would be likely that the RAN would be much larger than it was historically, and that the US steel industry would be much larger and better prepared, the naval spending acts under the new deal were the most sucessful in real economic growth terms of fighting the depression
--
Yes, apparently the governor of Kashgar was crucified after being killed at a banquet, why? No idea (I've read stuff relating to it before but its fairly standard 'got accused of treason at a banquet' they chopped his head off and hung his body up to deter other rebels explanation), Xinjiang here, is a lot more stable because it received a more substantive investment, as it at this point in the timeline the central asian republics are also much more invested in there is a larger more active railway system into the interior whcih will be touched on as we move into the latter half of 22, and then 23.
Then in 24 we will start the next arc. That will initially focus on the further distinegration of the beiyang clique but also internal political developments of the bureacracy, as well as the international side of things with central asia's railway system, before going into 25 where Sun passes away, and culminating in the final break up of the beiyang followed by Chiang trying to march north and then China solidifying into its final pre war major blocks in 28. There is also international finance problems along the way, the Japanese banking upsets during this arc... and of course the following arc will not quite begin with the wall street crash b ut that occurs in october of 29 and that arc should cover most of the immediate pre pacific war going into 33.
34 will start the arc which will entail the first part of the pacific war and run into either 39 or 41 (either stopping for the onset of war in Europe, or the Entry of the US in the Pacific). Then after that arc will be the run through of the pacific culminating in running through 45 with its epilogue being the Chinese truce and Far East Commission. That will be followed by the resolution of the Chinese Civil war and the cold war beginning in earnest
Does nothing to stop Weimar Germany or the Nazi problems but the result would be likely that the RAN would be much larger than it was historically, and that the US steel industry would be much larger and better prepared, the naval spending acts under the new deal were the most sucessful in real economic growth terms of fighting the depression
--
Yes, apparently the governor of Kashgar was crucified after being killed at a banquet, why? No idea (I've read stuff relating to it before but its fairly standard 'got accused of treason at a banquet' they chopped his head off and hung his body up to deter other rebels explanation), Xinjiang here, is a lot more stable because it received a more substantive investment, as it at this point in the timeline the central asian republics are also much more invested in there is a larger more active railway system into the interior whcih will be touched on as we move into the latter half of 22, and then 23.
Then in 24 we will start the next arc. That will initially focus on the further distinegration of the beiyang clique but also internal political developments of the bureacracy, as well as the international side of things with central asia's railway system, before going into 25 where Sun passes away, and culminating in the final break up of the beiyang followed by Chiang trying to march north and then China solidifying into its final pre war major blocks in 28. There is also international finance problems along the way, the Japanese banking upsets during this arc... and of course the following arc will not quite begin with the wall street crash b ut that occurs in october of 29 and that arc should cover most of the immediate pre pacific war going into 33.
34 will start the arc which will entail the first part of the pacific war and run into either 39 or 41 (either stopping for the onset of war in Europe, or the Entry of the US in the Pacific). Then after that arc will be the run through of the pacific culminating in running through 45 with its epilogue being the Chinese truce and Far East Commission. That will be followed by the resolution of the Chinese Civil war and the cold war beginning in earnest
ATP
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Thanks!
I found wiki about Nicolas Roerich
And,according to that,his journey to Asia lasted from 1925 to 1929,when in book he wrote that it was between 1923 and 1928.Strange.
And,in India he created strange theosofic center named Uruswati,and supported soviet-indian cooperation.But never come back to soviets,heh,heh....
Pity,if he come back he would be another victim - Sralin purged almost all of those who go there after 1920,wonder why.Maybe they really discovered Asgharta? some soviet dude,forget name,really belived in it existence.
And Roerih belived in Shamballa in Tibet.You knew - since it is your story,you could made both Shamballa and Asgharta real here....
About war - you knew,lack of Washington could really abort war on Pacyfic,and Japan could attack soviets instead.
And,another possibility - they go to war becouse of oil embargo,but what if they discovered oil in Manchuria? you could avoid war here.
P.S Roerich plan,according to wiki,was to made uprising of buddhist in support of soviet union.Considering what soviets did to their own buddhists,it is rather not funny...
And,if you could find Roerich book in english,look at pictures.Except Roerich strange paintings and locals there are pictures of executed governor - first in his uniform,other half naked and dead on cross.
He look as if he was sleeping - strange if he really survived two days on cross before getting schoot.
And,you could use his journey in your story,dude really worked for soviets - althought not to the point where he would go live there....
ATP
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I finished reading Roerich book.Polish version,of course,from 1980 with added commie coments about how great soviets were and how bad english was.
Do not waste your time on it,if you find english version,but basically,entire book is about:
1.How corrupted and bad chineese were - which probably was true,becouse he wrote about meeting first chineese outpost with 25 soldiers where only commander had old musket,and when he later met local armies,they look like beggars and had old rifles.
And old guns usually do not worked anymore.
2.How wonderful soviet union was/when he returned to soviets for a time OGPU asked him how could they help,and soldiers and workers asked for lectures about indian philosophy and buddism.
And everybody there,and in India and China,loved Lenin.
3.How much better East is then West,Jesus learned from buddhists,and entire world is waiting for Mitreya who would come and save it.
Fun thing is - his expedition officially was american,and he was sometimes named as Ameri-Chan as a result.
Soviet commissar Cziczerin named him as half-buddhist,half communist,and he could be right.Becouse he certainly worked by soviets,but keep beliving in buddhism.
As if Maitreya for him was Lenin....
You could use his voyage here in your story,according to what comments on book from soviet times said,british agent tried to stop him.Here,your chineese could do so for real.
Interesting thing - in his book he rarely mentioned british acting against him.
1922
Imperator Pax
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1922
Federov's rifle had a lot going for it. It was magazine fed, it was reasonable in dimensions and it was relatively controllable. It was a bitch to disassemble of course and its operating principle was equally a pain to manufacture but it proved the point. Allen appreciated that Iseburo agreed that it was still too troublesome of a system for mass production. They would need something simpler when the time came to issue men a rifle. It was writing on the wall. If not for the fact that it fired a comparatively anemic cartridge to the large caliber rounds, rounds that were better suited to machine guns like the water cooled browning as well as that rim creating a nuisance of itself in magazine tolerances... there was something to be said. The Federov was useful, but the experience's with lewis's gun told them enough.... yes the Qing had wanted a six millimeter cartridge of modern design. Liu had ideas, and some of the others, including Cullen wanted the superior performing six millimeter calibre cartridge for riflemen it was hard to justify that adoption or the necessity of it...
... yet.
"Well?"
"The MAK has the lines on schedule, France seems set on trying to push for a closed system on their colonies," Not that the British hadn't had parliamentarians who'd advocated the same. "Powell is sitting on a lot of surplus material, apparently he sold some to Paraguay." There was a pause, "There is something in here about Liberia, a report from the Navy in 1916, some other stuff in Africa, plus talk about the trade mission in Germany."
Allen craned his head, part of him wanted to know why he should care, but perhaps maybe the other question was, "What did he sell them?"
"Artillery, French Schneiders we know for sure... if I was guessing he's expecting that they'll need weapons for something and is giving them the opportunity to stock up." There was a ruffle of papers, "The interesting thing, is the arsenal is already producing shells, and to be blunt he's put a lot of effort into the textile department too... from the way this contract looks he's prepared to sell shells as needed."
So someone expected a fight, "One of the neighbors?"
"Or its internal," Dawes replied. "But yeah, everyone down there is looking for 'experts' and for guns... a lot of them made money selling to England, the entente during the war so they have the capital to buy, but," But of course there was a trade war going on and France throwing tariffs to protect her own farms shut out Argentina and the likes biggest exports, especially during the war, to Europe.
"What else?"
"There is the squabbling in Peking." Dawes replied "The business with the cabinet was dumb, but lets face it, too many hands on the pie." He tilted his head towards the map on the wall, "What's worse is that Cao Kun, and Zhang are both over there and are probably where the fuck we'll come down on. Then there is Wu," Cao's number two guy, which was another headache, because the man had both his pros and cons. He had supporters and detractors. "He's going to be problematic... the British don't want this turning into a fight, but from the posturing that sure sounds like where we're going to get to a head too quick."
Allen paused, "Do we have estimates?"
"Truthfully, it'll be a small front, they care about Peking, both sides can muster a hundred thousand men in northern Zhili and even if, if this doesn't turn to cutting up one another, they're both going to want more modern weapons. Zhang has renaults of his own, now I don't think he'll bring them down, but he's talking to the British about buying more tanks, more aircraft... once he gets them, you mark my words he's going to want to use them. Its probably best if Cao moves first for Zhili, while Zhang is overconfident but not ready for it."
Zhang had the definitively ... stronger perhaps economic base. It was more coherent, it was rational, better able to support his efforts. Zhili was a federation of dujun south of the great wall along the coast too many of whom held their provinces as their own fiefdoms and were too beholden to local domestic opinions, and too suspicious of their neighbors.
--
"What do you mean the Russians didn't know?" Bill's question was more annoyance, almost petulance than it was really surprise.
"Didn't have a reason to, I guess." Dawes replied leaning back, "The Russian tax system was scarcely any better than the Qings, oh that finance minister of theirs back before the war tried to fix some of that but then they bushwhacked him and well like I said that was before the war." He shook his head, "Then there was, there were too many exemptions... and you saw what happened when the war forced them to try and roll that back."
The muslims in kirghiz, through Central Asia had attempted to revolt against the draft of course. They protested the impressment of young men, and the seizure of animals from farms... not helped of course because the draft had come just before the harvest... and the tsars government should have known that would have caused the famine... and from all indications the Bolsheviks just didn't give a shit if it did in the Volga and elsewhere across their part of the old tsarist empire. "Lets take the last Russian," The tsar's government was gone, and even if Russian was a short hand it risked bruising their allies in Kirghiz to associate the red bandits in Moscow with the nominally royalist Russians of the White cause, "publication. 175Million," Most of whom were under the Bolshevik yoke, "Maybe 45 million east of the Urals," Thus in 'Asia'. That didn't mean those people who were closer to Peking and Tokyo than London or Paris were all together... they weren't.
The Old Tsarist Empire was gone now, that was clear. Iseburo had built up and reinforced the Baikal region was doing everything he could to reiterate where the boundary lines were, while still keeping his boys on his side of the fence. The border further west, of Kirghiz followed the old Tsarist lines which made things tense, but at least the maps worked. "The Silk Road line is going to need to go south,"
There was a wrinkling of noses.
The Treaty of Sevres, the year before was unpopular to say the least. The cadre at large had disliked theSykes Picot agreement the French and British had made with one another before they had even whooped anyone, the French had never even managed to push the Germans out of their own home soil and they were dividing up the Ottoman lands. It was galling... and the Frogs behaviors here and now after the war was just salt and burning whisky in the wound, "The British do want us to push the line to Baghdad if we can." There was a reason that there was still grumbling talk from the year before of speaking with the Republican Turks about the schematics for the Model 1918 Rifle as a uniform rifle to replace all the old service rifles if only there could be peace first.
"We'd have to cross into Persia first." Waite remarked with a scowl. "Merv," In the land of the Turkmen, "Is the current last stop on the line," And the reasoning for that was not just Waite's reluctance with the British... in February the year previous there had been a coup in Persia The Persian Cossacks had seized power under Reza Khan and well he was friendly to the British but that just irritated Waite more.
Waite's vexation at the matter though was not their only problem, "Bill we have other problems," Allen began. Problems which had always existed, and problems that had been seen forming in the south, "I don't like these arguments going on over the budget. Liang had a point that the operations in Hunan were costly," Certainly that was true.
"Zhang is taking this personally." Bill replied, "But I don't see what we can do about that." He glanced at Waite, "don't get me wrong We've got problems, but its a new year, and you've got to leave for Japan." The Old Man, Yamagata Aritomo, has passed away the day before at one in the afternoon... and a state funeral was being prepared in Tokyo... there were plenty of dignitaries expected. Iseburo would be in attendance, he had been recalled from the formerly Russian Far East for Okuma's funeral and had been expected to return to the Asian mainland come march ... there had been talks on the cable traffic of the Diet.
Iseburo wanted more of the to be demobilized ships and battleships to be scrapped to be turned into railway guns to reinforce the position, but that was probably going to be bogged down with allegations of graft in Manchuria from Seiyukai party bosses. Allen tapped the papers," Then we're back to this. Persia?" He questioned, moving one hand to gesture to the map, "This needs to be done before Iboard that train."
Federov's rifle had a lot going for it. It was magazine fed, it was reasonable in dimensions and it was relatively controllable. It was a bitch to disassemble of course and its operating principle was equally a pain to manufacture but it proved the point. Allen appreciated that Iseburo agreed that it was still too troublesome of a system for mass production. They would need something simpler when the time came to issue men a rifle. It was writing on the wall. If not for the fact that it fired a comparatively anemic cartridge to the large caliber rounds, rounds that were better suited to machine guns like the water cooled browning as well as that rim creating a nuisance of itself in magazine tolerances... there was something to be said. The Federov was useful, but the experience's with lewis's gun told them enough.... yes the Qing had wanted a six millimeter cartridge of modern design. Liu had ideas, and some of the others, including Cullen wanted the superior performing six millimeter calibre cartridge for riflemen it was hard to justify that adoption or the necessity of it...
... yet.
"Well?"
"The MAK has the lines on schedule, France seems set on trying to push for a closed system on their colonies," Not that the British hadn't had parliamentarians who'd advocated the same. "Powell is sitting on a lot of surplus material, apparently he sold some to Paraguay." There was a pause, "There is something in here about Liberia, a report from the Navy in 1916, some other stuff in Africa, plus talk about the trade mission in Germany."
Allen craned his head, part of him wanted to know why he should care, but perhaps maybe the other question was, "What did he sell them?"
"Artillery, French Schneiders we know for sure... if I was guessing he's expecting that they'll need weapons for something and is giving them the opportunity to stock up." There was a ruffle of papers, "The interesting thing, is the arsenal is already producing shells, and to be blunt he's put a lot of effort into the textile department too... from the way this contract looks he's prepared to sell shells as needed."
So someone expected a fight, "One of the neighbors?"
"Or its internal," Dawes replied. "But yeah, everyone down there is looking for 'experts' and for guns... a lot of them made money selling to England, the entente during the war so they have the capital to buy, but," But of course there was a trade war going on and France throwing tariffs to protect her own farms shut out Argentina and the likes biggest exports, especially during the war, to Europe.
"What else?"
"There is the squabbling in Peking." Dawes replied "The business with the cabinet was dumb, but lets face it, too many hands on the pie." He tilted his head towards the map on the wall, "What's worse is that Cao Kun, and Zhang are both over there and are probably where the fuck we'll come down on. Then there is Wu," Cao's number two guy, which was another headache, because the man had both his pros and cons. He had supporters and detractors. "He's going to be problematic... the British don't want this turning into a fight, but from the posturing that sure sounds like where we're going to get to a head too quick."
Allen paused, "Do we have estimates?"
"Truthfully, it'll be a small front, they care about Peking, both sides can muster a hundred thousand men in northern Zhili and even if, if this doesn't turn to cutting up one another, they're both going to want more modern weapons. Zhang has renaults of his own, now I don't think he'll bring them down, but he's talking to the British about buying more tanks, more aircraft... once he gets them, you mark my words he's going to want to use them. Its probably best if Cao moves first for Zhili, while Zhang is overconfident but not ready for it."
Zhang had the definitively ... stronger perhaps economic base. It was more coherent, it was rational, better able to support his efforts. Zhili was a federation of dujun south of the great wall along the coast too many of whom held their provinces as their own fiefdoms and were too beholden to local domestic opinions, and too suspicious of their neighbors.
--
"What do you mean the Russians didn't know?" Bill's question was more annoyance, almost petulance than it was really surprise.
"Didn't have a reason to, I guess." Dawes replied leaning back, "The Russian tax system was scarcely any better than the Qings, oh that finance minister of theirs back before the war tried to fix some of that but then they bushwhacked him and well like I said that was before the war." He shook his head, "Then there was, there were too many exemptions... and you saw what happened when the war forced them to try and roll that back."
The muslims in kirghiz, through Central Asia had attempted to revolt against the draft of course. They protested the impressment of young men, and the seizure of animals from farms... not helped of course because the draft had come just before the harvest... and the tsars government should have known that would have caused the famine... and from all indications the Bolsheviks just didn't give a shit if it did in the Volga and elsewhere across their part of the old tsarist empire. "Lets take the last Russian," The tsar's government was gone, and even if Russian was a short hand it risked bruising their allies in Kirghiz to associate the red bandits in Moscow with the nominally royalist Russians of the White cause, "publication. 175Million," Most of whom were under the Bolshevik yoke, "Maybe 45 million east of the Urals," Thus in 'Asia'. That didn't mean those people who were closer to Peking and Tokyo than London or Paris were all together... they weren't.
The Old Tsarist Empire was gone now, that was clear. Iseburo had built up and reinforced the Baikal region was doing everything he could to reiterate where the boundary lines were, while still keeping his boys on his side of the fence. The border further west, of Kirghiz followed the old Tsarist lines which made things tense, but at least the maps worked. "The Silk Road line is going to need to go south,"
There was a wrinkling of noses.
The Treaty of Sevres, the year before was unpopular to say the least. The cadre at large had disliked theSykes Picot agreement the French and British had made with one another before they had even whooped anyone, the French had never even managed to push the Germans out of their own home soil and they were dividing up the Ottoman lands. It was galling... and the Frogs behaviors here and now after the war was just salt and burning whisky in the wound, "The British do want us to push the line to Baghdad if we can." There was a reason that there was still grumbling talk from the year before of speaking with the Republican Turks about the schematics for the Model 1918 Rifle as a uniform rifle to replace all the old service rifles if only there could be peace first.
"We'd have to cross into Persia first." Waite remarked with a scowl. "Merv," In the land of the Turkmen, "Is the current last stop on the line," And the reasoning for that was not just Waite's reluctance with the British... in February the year previous there had been a coup in Persia The Persian Cossacks had seized power under Reza Khan and well he was friendly to the British but that just irritated Waite more.
Waite's vexation at the matter though was not their only problem, "Bill we have other problems," Allen began. Problems which had always existed, and problems that had been seen forming in the south, "I don't like these arguments going on over the budget. Liang had a point that the operations in Hunan were costly," Certainly that was true.
"Zhang is taking this personally." Bill replied, "But I don't see what we can do about that." He glanced at Waite, "don't get me wrong We've got problems, but its a new year, and you've got to leave for Japan." The Old Man, Yamagata Aritomo, has passed away the day before at one in the afternoon... and a state funeral was being prepared in Tokyo... there were plenty of dignitaries expected. Iseburo would be in attendance, he had been recalled from the formerly Russian Far East for Okuma's funeral and had been expected to return to the Asian mainland come march ... there had been talks on the cable traffic of the Diet.
Iseburo wanted more of the to be demobilized ships and battleships to be scrapped to be turned into railway guns to reinforce the position, but that was probably going to be bogged down with allegations of graft in Manchuria from Seiyukai party bosses. Allen tapped the papers," Then we're back to this. Persia?" He questioned, moving one hand to gesture to the map, "This needs to be done before Iboard that train."
Last edited:
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Train to Persia from Siberia - could it be done with their technology? i read,that soviets later had problems building that with american help.
Cpould your China do that?
And Renault tanks are waste of time,wait for Vickers E to copy,or something later.
P.S Fedorov rifle - indeed too complicated for every soldier,but what about turning it into LMG ?
Cpould your China do that?
And Renault tanks are waste of time,wait for Vickers E to copy,or something later.
P.S Fedorov rifle - indeed too complicated for every soldier,but what about turning it into LMG ?
Imperator Pax
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The technology is imminently feasible the problem engineering wise was in route planning and political issues with both sides
The Lewis is still cheaper in its 1922 pattern and lighter and uses an existing cartridge in inventory
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Thanks ! so,we would have railroad here.Good for everybody.Lewis cheaper - good argument for not changing it ,at least for next few years.
Later you could either follow brits and take czech LMG,or capture soviet LMG DP ,and mass produce it.It seems as superior to czech LMG.
P.S Roerich - if he come in his expedition here,use him as comic relief.Dude was soviet spy,but he really belived in Shangri-La,Anghara,and wise masters who come from that places to save humanity.
1922
Imperator Pax
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1922
The two men were serious contrasts. Iseburo was older than he was. Japan had been still very feudal in its ordering more so than England or Germany during the war between the states and the old man hadn't had a son, thus had chosen to adopt his nephew to take on that role. Yamagata had passed away, and the state funeral had merited a trip across the sea to Japan. It expressed a solidarity with the Japanese between America and the island nation's British allies and that pleased immeasurably so the government that was in favor of open and convivial relations with the English speaking world.
Iseburo was more portly than his father. Yamagata in his waning years had been losing weight, and had looked thin painfully so at the new years festivities... and now the old man was dead. Iseburo in a civilian suit nodded to the marshal's sword, "It is what he wanted." A flat statement and the truth, because he had not been in the army.
"You won a fine victory at the Lake." He replied to his friend.
"One victory," Iseburo replied
Lack of army service or not, he had broken a strong cavalry assault as his prepared defenses had funneled the Red Cavalry into a killing field of size that could not have existed in the cramped confines of the Western Front. It was a splendid victory, one that confirmed to the public, and the army at large that that lack of service did not make Iseburo any less Yamagata's son, and heir. "A valuable one, we cannot permit the Bolsheviks to gain access to the pacific," leaving aside that they were already making enough of a mess of the rest of Russia, "We should deny them as much access to civilization as possible." It was on that that he disagreed with the State Department who were along with the congress wanting in the spirit of Christian charity adamant to support Hoover and the relief mission for the starvation that was the Bolshevik's own damned fault. "I've spoken to the prime minister, and lobbied, and written, that we have to contain the bolshevik disorder." He didn't really need to use such flowery language... the truth was with that victory at the Lake, never mind that there had been other victories smaller battles tightly controlled by Iseburo as he directed the logistics of officers in the far east that delineated the modern border that the British were demanding that Lenin's government in Moscow accept as terms of any hope of normalized relations.
Those victories also besides the basis of a british settlement of relations also secured Iseburo's position in the east. It gave undisputed seniority and vice royal esque powers of executive over Japanese forces in the region of former Russian territory. It allowed him to make with plenipotentiary dispensation agreements that otherwise might have required arguments from the Diet. The council and the diet might well protest now those wide ranging authorities with the old man dead, but the current agreements would hold. "I am confident my troops," Iseburo got possessive easily enough, "are provisioned now for winter, and have appropriate quarters." That was one of the main matters. The lake's expanse had been built up. Iseburo had wasted no time destroying access from the west in such to force the Bolsheviks that they should have to march overland, and Iseburo also was quick to advocate for army air power to be about reconnaissance... that made him less popular with some, but Iseburo had disagreed with Trenchard that bombers as they existed at present could prevent the stalemate as had happened in flander's fields.
He made a compelling argument, just as he had when he had wheeled out to the Navy the need for various model guns to be stripped away from old ships that were outdated. Just as he argued or insisted that the navy could then use that freed up budget for other things, whatever it was the navy had wanted just so he could emplace those guns on rail cars or as fortress artillery on the lake.
The pair of men stood there looking at a map of Asia. "We must assume the Bolsheviks mean us ill will." He remarked, and Allen nodded, but regardless of expansive powers, what Iseburo could not readily commit to was the wholesale transition to a new service rifle cartridge. He could buy whatever machine guns he wanted, but even if he had had the leave to do so, Zhang the nearest arsenal to Iseburo's border did not have the production capacity to meet such an order for rifles.
8mm machine guns and 'supplementary' rifles, as procurement labelled them to get around ordinance, were what Iseburo could manage. The Federov to which they had also explored, and tested had been found to work with the Japanese servicecartridge and Lake Baikal's armory emplaced in the old tsarist fortress had a limited production capability to manufacture those, but it would never be enough for anything more than the nominally Cavalry division under Iseburo's command. That was only about six thousand men strong, and Iseburo had desperately appealed to Japan's automotive industry to help him build factories so that he might replace the need for fodder... at the moment it wasn't enough... and
That placed a need for fuel which placed the scientifically forward thinking materiel departments of army and navy at logger heads with their service's parochialism... and their respective corporate allies. Iseburo hoped that if the financial wherewithal could be found he could expand, but the Army leadership with Yamagata and Terauchi, and Akashi all dead placed profound strains on unity ... there was no clear cut leadership as old men passed away. That again just re cemented Iseburo's political position since while there were men of the Russo-Japanese war who had held commands Japan had not committed troops on the western front having time and again refused French requests to do so, and so the clash with the Bolsheviks especially with the anti-marxist inclination of the political establishment secured Iseburo's position at home.
... but Harding would not unfortunately commit to an Anglo-American-Japanese Anti-Bolshevik pact bot h in an attempt to avoid foreign entanglements for the sake of 'returning to normal'... and because at the level of the individual states California was opposed to it. It was a mess. Allen didn't like it, but there was also little he could do about it.
"Ungern, and Zhang?"
"They get along convivially,"Iseburo replied, "I will join them on experiments with tanks from England."
"Vicker's six ton, yeah we're interested in the same." Iseburo nodded, but the Japanese army wasn't convinced... or rather the current clique in power favored small two man tanks like the Renault. By and large for the same reasons as the French had developed the tank, the Renault was cheap and was for the support of the infantry. The only thing they might have had a point on was the Renault was less hell on roads than the Vickers, but the truth was everywhere needed wider and more solidly constructed roads, he made a noise clearing his throat, "Electrification I think is the trick," That was he silently admitted especially if the kwantung army headquarters was going to be obstinate about things. The post Iseburo would have held if he hadn't been created into the new position would have but the horse trading in Tokyo had decided it was better to have two separate commands, and that meant that in Iseburo's place was Hayashi, and one of his clique had succeeded him in the post when Hayashi had been sent off to London.
The attempt by accident on George the Fifth meant that he government of Japan was quite solidly anti-bolshevik, and there were demands the Diet do something. That was certainly true for both the Crown Prince visiting, and England's Prince Edward making a state visit to Japan following the excitement, but America had her oceans for walls so Harding was unlikely to do anything. A consensus on the soviets was the priority, but that didn't prevent them from needing to look at back at China, one man in Tokyo has summarized with 'I find, the communiques from Curzon confusing, and illogical'.... the most likely explanation for such was that Curzon wanted to treat the Bolsheviks as simply a continuation of the tsarist regime with little consideration for ideology, and that it was just a quarter of the great game he had become used to playing in India. Then there were still other concerns.
"Sun's march fell through," Chen down in Canton had expressed ideas for a Federal system where as Sun had left the province with a small, relatively speaking, group of supporters on a 'northern expedition' into Hunan. "Which wasn't really a surprise, but he'd been talking with Zhang."
"Yes, a discussion that I do not believe can come to a mutually agreeable resolution."
"Zhang thinks he can get Sun to agree a solution where in he becomes the next Yuan." Allen replied, but there were obvious problems with that sort of thing even if Sun would. Duan was in talks with Sun as well, and Allen would lay money that he wanted that same coveted position... and of course Sun's march had opened while Zhang had been busy acting against Zhili, and the ... funeral of old man Yamagata.
"He would have expected you to return to your troops." Iseburo replied solemnly.
He tilted his head, "The same could be said for you. And your engineers,"
"I have to explain such things to the Diet, I do not have the advantage of being an elder statesman."Iseburo remarked.
"There is talk of corruption."
"In manchuria? Yes. It has been lucrative, but you and I were aware of that, father was aware of it... it was why he wanted me to be inspector general..."
"That was before."
"Oh yes, this is true, but his instructions were not to allow party politics to take root." The old man had hated political parties... he'd wholeheartedly agreed with Washington in being against them.... but it was an idealistic idea. "The Diet has many questions for me, and about my efforts to make efforts against such graft, and also for the Prime Minister to show he has control over the army and navy."
He held back that that probably wasn't going well. "Zhang has been recruiting, anything you can tell me?"
"He's not having to conscript people by force, Wu either for that matter. For most part the economic conditions make most rural peasants eager to join, if not capable of much martial developments. They also lack the training that you spend such time on." Iseburo had a copy of the infantry manual a copy he had painstakingly translated into Japanese... "I don't know if he had time to read it." Iseburo replied to the unasked question. "I haven't found father's notes on it if he had. Zhang however has spent a great deal of money on artillery, even If I do not believe he has received the latest Schneiders that he ordered."
The two men were serious contrasts. Iseburo was older than he was. Japan had been still very feudal in its ordering more so than England or Germany during the war between the states and the old man hadn't had a son, thus had chosen to adopt his nephew to take on that role. Yamagata had passed away, and the state funeral had merited a trip across the sea to Japan. It expressed a solidarity with the Japanese between America and the island nation's British allies and that pleased immeasurably so the government that was in favor of open and convivial relations with the English speaking world.
Iseburo was more portly than his father. Yamagata in his waning years had been losing weight, and had looked thin painfully so at the new years festivities... and now the old man was dead. Iseburo in a civilian suit nodded to the marshal's sword, "It is what he wanted." A flat statement and the truth, because he had not been in the army.
"You won a fine victory at the Lake." He replied to his friend.
"One victory," Iseburo replied
Lack of army service or not, he had broken a strong cavalry assault as his prepared defenses had funneled the Red Cavalry into a killing field of size that could not have existed in the cramped confines of the Western Front. It was a splendid victory, one that confirmed to the public, and the army at large that that lack of service did not make Iseburo any less Yamagata's son, and heir. "A valuable one, we cannot permit the Bolsheviks to gain access to the pacific," leaving aside that they were already making enough of a mess of the rest of Russia, "We should deny them as much access to civilization as possible." It was on that that he disagreed with the State Department who were along with the congress wanting in the spirit of Christian charity adamant to support Hoover and the relief mission for the starvation that was the Bolshevik's own damned fault. "I've spoken to the prime minister, and lobbied, and written, that we have to contain the bolshevik disorder." He didn't really need to use such flowery language... the truth was with that victory at the Lake, never mind that there had been other victories smaller battles tightly controlled by Iseburo as he directed the logistics of officers in the far east that delineated the modern border that the British were demanding that Lenin's government in Moscow accept as terms of any hope of normalized relations.
Those victories also besides the basis of a british settlement of relations also secured Iseburo's position in the east. It gave undisputed seniority and vice royal esque powers of executive over Japanese forces in the region of former Russian territory. It allowed him to make with plenipotentiary dispensation agreements that otherwise might have required arguments from the Diet. The council and the diet might well protest now those wide ranging authorities with the old man dead, but the current agreements would hold. "I am confident my troops," Iseburo got possessive easily enough, "are provisioned now for winter, and have appropriate quarters." That was one of the main matters. The lake's expanse had been built up. Iseburo had wasted no time destroying access from the west in such to force the Bolsheviks that they should have to march overland, and Iseburo also was quick to advocate for army air power to be about reconnaissance... that made him less popular with some, but Iseburo had disagreed with Trenchard that bombers as they existed at present could prevent the stalemate as had happened in flander's fields.
He made a compelling argument, just as he had when he had wheeled out to the Navy the need for various model guns to be stripped away from old ships that were outdated. Just as he argued or insisted that the navy could then use that freed up budget for other things, whatever it was the navy had wanted just so he could emplace those guns on rail cars or as fortress artillery on the lake.
The pair of men stood there looking at a map of Asia. "We must assume the Bolsheviks mean us ill will." He remarked, and Allen nodded, but regardless of expansive powers, what Iseburo could not readily commit to was the wholesale transition to a new service rifle cartridge. He could buy whatever machine guns he wanted, but even if he had had the leave to do so, Zhang the nearest arsenal to Iseburo's border did not have the production capacity to meet such an order for rifles.
8mm machine guns and 'supplementary' rifles, as procurement labelled them to get around ordinance, were what Iseburo could manage. The Federov to which they had also explored, and tested had been found to work with the Japanese servicecartridge and Lake Baikal's armory emplaced in the old tsarist fortress had a limited production capability to manufacture those, but it would never be enough for anything more than the nominally Cavalry division under Iseburo's command. That was only about six thousand men strong, and Iseburo had desperately appealed to Japan's automotive industry to help him build factories so that he might replace the need for fodder... at the moment it wasn't enough... and
That placed a need for fuel which placed the scientifically forward thinking materiel departments of army and navy at logger heads with their service's parochialism... and their respective corporate allies. Iseburo hoped that if the financial wherewithal could be found he could expand, but the Army leadership with Yamagata and Terauchi, and Akashi all dead placed profound strains on unity ... there was no clear cut leadership as old men passed away. That again just re cemented Iseburo's political position since while there were men of the Russo-Japanese war who had held commands Japan had not committed troops on the western front having time and again refused French requests to do so, and so the clash with the Bolsheviks especially with the anti-marxist inclination of the political establishment secured Iseburo's position at home.
... but Harding would not unfortunately commit to an Anglo-American-Japanese Anti-Bolshevik pact bot h in an attempt to avoid foreign entanglements for the sake of 'returning to normal'... and because at the level of the individual states California was opposed to it. It was a mess. Allen didn't like it, but there was also little he could do about it.
"Ungern, and Zhang?"
"They get along convivially,"Iseburo replied, "I will join them on experiments with tanks from England."
"Vicker's six ton, yeah we're interested in the same." Iseburo nodded, but the Japanese army wasn't convinced... or rather the current clique in power favored small two man tanks like the Renault. By and large for the same reasons as the French had developed the tank, the Renault was cheap and was for the support of the infantry. The only thing they might have had a point on was the Renault was less hell on roads than the Vickers, but the truth was everywhere needed wider and more solidly constructed roads, he made a noise clearing his throat, "Electrification I think is the trick," That was he silently admitted especially if the kwantung army headquarters was going to be obstinate about things. The post Iseburo would have held if he hadn't been created into the new position would have but the horse trading in Tokyo had decided it was better to have two separate commands, and that meant that in Iseburo's place was Hayashi, and one of his clique had succeeded him in the post when Hayashi had been sent off to London.
The attempt by accident on George the Fifth meant that he government of Japan was quite solidly anti-bolshevik, and there were demands the Diet do something. That was certainly true for both the Crown Prince visiting, and England's Prince Edward making a state visit to Japan following the excitement, but America had her oceans for walls so Harding was unlikely to do anything. A consensus on the soviets was the priority, but that didn't prevent them from needing to look at back at China, one man in Tokyo has summarized with 'I find, the communiques from Curzon confusing, and illogical'.... the most likely explanation for such was that Curzon wanted to treat the Bolsheviks as simply a continuation of the tsarist regime with little consideration for ideology, and that it was just a quarter of the great game he had become used to playing in India. Then there were still other concerns.
"Sun's march fell through," Chen down in Canton had expressed ideas for a Federal system where as Sun had left the province with a small, relatively speaking, group of supporters on a 'northern expedition' into Hunan. "Which wasn't really a surprise, but he'd been talking with Zhang."
"Yes, a discussion that I do not believe can come to a mutually agreeable resolution."
"Zhang thinks he can get Sun to agree a solution where in he becomes the next Yuan." Allen replied, but there were obvious problems with that sort of thing even if Sun would. Duan was in talks with Sun as well, and Allen would lay money that he wanted that same coveted position... and of course Sun's march had opened while Zhang had been busy acting against Zhili, and the ... funeral of old man Yamagata.
"He would have expected you to return to your troops." Iseburo replied solemnly.
He tilted his head, "The same could be said for you. And your engineers,"
"I have to explain such things to the Diet, I do not have the advantage of being an elder statesman."Iseburo remarked.
"There is talk of corruption."
"In manchuria? Yes. It has been lucrative, but you and I were aware of that, father was aware of it... it was why he wanted me to be inspector general..."
"That was before."
"Oh yes, this is true, but his instructions were not to allow party politics to take root." The old man had hated political parties... he'd wholeheartedly agreed with Washington in being against them.... but it was an idealistic idea. "The Diet has many questions for me, and about my efforts to make efforts against such graft, and also for the Prime Minister to show he has control over the army and navy."
He held back that that probably wasn't going well. "Zhang has been recruiting, anything you can tell me?"
"He's not having to conscript people by force, Wu either for that matter. For most part the economic conditions make most rural peasants eager to join, if not capable of much martial developments. They also lack the training that you spend such time on." Iseburo had a copy of the infantry manual a copy he had painstakingly translated into Japanese... "I don't know if he had time to read it." Iseburo replied to the unasked question. "I haven't found father's notes on it if he had. Zhang however has spent a great deal of money on artillery, even If I do not believe he has received the latest Schneiders that he ordered."
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Lenin is arleady cripple,would die soon,and soviets would statr their canon infighting about who would be next red chan.You have time till Srain take power for good,maybe few years more.
But - soviets here would try sometching before 1939 on Siberia.And i do not say abound sending clowns like Roerich/who still could be used as decoy here/ ,but real army,or at least special forces cosplaing as bandits.
Would Japan here take Manchuria? if so,would they find oli there? they almost did it in OTL.
Tanks - you do not need them yet,tanks after WW1 get damaged too many times to be reliable.But,if you wait for Vickers E and develop it to sometching like T26, it should work.
What Schneiders Zhang ordered? 155mm howitzers? they were good enough to still work during WW2.
But - soviets here would try sometching before 1939 on Siberia.And i do not say abound sending clowns like Roerich/who still could be used as decoy here/ ,but real army,or at least special forces cosplaing as bandits.
Would Japan here take Manchuria? if so,would they find oli there? they almost did it in OTL.
Tanks - you do not need them yet,tanks after WW1 get damaged too many times to be reliable.But,if you wait for Vickers E and develop it to sometching like T26, it should work.
What Schneiders Zhang ordered? 155mm howitzers? they were good enough to still work during WW2.
April 1922
Imperator Pax
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April 1922
They hadn't told the French legation, nor really to express any interest to Renault though they had made comments to Ford, what they were doing, but they'd left enough of the tanks in Russia it had been easy to put hands on more than a few. It was also why the Whites were here on the proving ground in their corner of the North China Plain. Given what Zhang was doing it was a wonder that Ungern hadn't sent out the invitation he was talking about fort his armor school idea of everyone getting together... everyone had these Renault 17s after all... and Zhang was already making his own. That had been where most of his automotive efforts had gone as he worked with his Japanese friends.
The British tanks were unique to themselves and the Cossacks though. The 'protected radio carrier tank' had utility... which was to say it had more space. The French tank was too cramped for everything they wanted to do with it. The FT17 also didn't have the firepower that their red legs wanted from it either. The Mk1 tanks were supposed to divide up with batteries and relay information regarding fires back and forth from headquarters in order to maximize the artillery. In theory they were supposed to be able to talk to spotter aircraft but coordinating that still needed more practice and the ETS work here suggested that was going to take more time. Eventually though, the protected radio carrier might be able to serve as the eyes for ground born spotters.
"The FT might as well be an armored car," Waite grumbled as the 8mm Colt Browning in the turrent chattered away down slope as it driven forward. "I'm going to see about trying to fit them with 1 pounder belt feds to start with." He didn't seem optimistic about the prospect, but there were others who wanted to go that route, "I'm pretty sure that we've got enough people who are used to them we can test them out and see whether its worth a damn."
"And if that doesn't work?"
"If it don't?" He blew out a breath, "Well I don't see why I couldn't make it work, but from the way things went in Ekatrinburg. The 1pdr is getting long in the tooth." Yet it was still the standard automatic cannon in use by the armored cars and with some of the heavy weapon teams, but the romanov rescue had shown some of its deficits.
The talks in Europe were still ongoing but they needed a higher pressure, and most likely long barreled weapon that was flat shooting. Such a familiar refrain that was. That was taking time and slowing a replacement.
"If it doesn't work," Dawes interjected, "We'll have to do something more, and that will have to wait until we have more data." The older man remarked, "Chances are we're gonna use these mostly as machine gun carriers, and the army," Back home, in the states, "Has a fifty caliber, its an upscaled 30'06, but this is mechanized we put them in the turret and as a heavy machine gun would do good to support infantry."
But it wouldn't give them the advantage, the fire power needed to smash protected fighting positions, never mind bunkers... the 1pdr didn't have the oomph for that and half inch bullets certainly weren't going to. "What will you do about it?" Allen questioned.
"Frankly, allowing that yes thats true, what I'd suggest is replacing the assembly of our existing colt brownings."
"Excuse me?"
Waite looked on to the comment, but Dawes gestured to the FT, "The Pom Pom is something we've used for years. I acknowledge that we can get it to work but for supporting infantry I think a larger bullet stable at prolonged distances would be more effective in the field. As a machine gun carrier, the one pdr is too low pressure so until we find something better, and its ready a machine gun a heavy machine gun is a better for what we need for most the fighting we're doing." He shook his head, "Now I recognize that its an intermediate solution... but you're not going to like my proposed solution any better, but you want to hear it?"
"Of course I want to hear it?"
"I want a mechanized tractor that throws a large high explosive charge." Hence why Xian would eventually adopt a tread born 3 Inch cased HE initially in short barrel configuration mounted in a turret, for the explicit purpose of defeating Infantry in the Open, or the defeating of enemy entrenchments and protected fighting positions in support of Infantry advance... thus the term motorized gun carriage as it was in Red Leg documents.
--
Allen unfolded his hands, and glanced at the force arrangement on the table. It wasn't really what he was thinking about, he'd seen the cables from the west, from England as the fallout began to shift over the Weimar and the bolsheviks agreement. It was worrying, and he expected that Percy would come storming in any moment now.
"So what do you think?" Cole asked turning a paper, he cocked his head, "I know we can't be a frontier constabulary, but a reaction force from the regulars, we need to be able to move quickly."
"Its a little on the nose don't you think?" He asked.
"What Gray Ghosts?" Cullen chuckled in amusement at his own wit, "The Brigade needed something," Now that the Gendarmes were standing up regional division level offices, and recruiting regular troopers to meet the needs of covering really seven provinces, while still being active on the line, "shock troops, quick moving and carbines, I'd say we give them Federov's rifles," the problem there besides the complex manufacturing being the ammunition, that 6.5 Arisaka being semi rimmed and not something they produced, "if we could." Lewis's sub machine gun, as was the accepted vernacular in English, was still an option but the truth was they needed something lighter, simpler. "Lewis's Assault Phase Rifle will be stout," Not the least of which was it was fairly light... and if you'll beg my pardon, might be better to forget this automatic option at all."
"Griswold wants to be sure of a universal detachable magazine," For eight millimeter, "I understand given the length of the cartridge and the number of rifles we have that has certain geometrical impediments." The Colt Brownings were exempt they were belt fed guns and had been simplified from the original design and were going to be entering mass production to all units just as soon as they could that would include 2nd and 4th Division receiving large numbers. "He wants to send Bill to the Czechs, and Poles to see if they'll bite on the idea."
"You don't think they will?" There was a pause, "We've had some success, and frankly it bears in mind brother John and we should remind them, we started by buying abroad, but also licensing what we needed. It stands to reason they could do the same."
Such that he understood it, it was a doctrine thing, "The Europeans don't seem to want to use detachable magazines," They'd found that out trying to push rifles to among others the Poles, and the newly freed states of the baltics. "Ordinance back home seems to abhor the idea as encouraging waste. On the other hand a twenty round detachable double stack magazine from sheet steel is going to be in expensive." Something that for their automatic riflemen was ideal, because the men could afford to lose the mags in a fight "Its not 1880, and even with ten rounders," Like they had originally experimented back when Bai Lang had been running around, "they'll be cheap, cheap enough that we can issue them out to 1stand 3rd come the fall. What I understand from this proposal is that you want these men to be added to that broader formation."
"If its ready." He replied, both officers cognizant of the disturbances to the north east... and the mustering armies of Zhili and Fengtien branches of the Beiyang Army. A hundred thousand men was a lot of men, and the two branches could both swing that kind of weight... and the problem was that it was already April, Summer was right around the corner and that meant fighting seemed likely, it was when people planned to fight campaigns. Cullen shoved his hands in his trousers and walked to the window looking out in the yard. "We're gonna have to tell the men something. This feudal way of doing things has to stop."
As Cullen stared out the window Allen thumbed through the report of the brigade, and more correctly what the two star commanding the element was requesting to bring his combined arms force into strength. The Engineer, the commanding officer of the formation was an engineer by education and profession, was thirty three years old. He had completed the staff college just ahead of the mess in Zhengzhou, and had been posted to combat engineer battalion which had gone on since to form the core of the combined arms unit. "This says he wants full mechanization of infantry," Which was fine, "He goes on, and as I assume this is Dawes that he wants a five inch towed mortar company and accompany logistical support."
"Yep, there are also those rockets the red legs are playing with, break up bandit formations in the open to keep them from causing trouble en masse. Horse charges especially."
"The logic is sound, so the moniker?"
Cullen wheeled on his heel, "Conflicting I guess, the mechanization is good for them, but when it comes down to it, there is the distinction of what they're supposed to do. Given what we've asked of them brother John, if you'll beg my pardon we're asking them to be cavalry in an army that doesn't have a branch for it."
He thumbed through the pages again, "Yes, what we ask and have asked of the brigade in study is that it is the element of security and armed reconnaissance on the frontier and to find and fix an enemy for the division to meet and beat them in detail." He blew out a breath, "And of course there is the argument that they're asking for additional aid men to be allocated to the formation, that mounting them in vehicles, makes them mounted infantry,"
"If you prefer we could call them dragoons,"
He gave Cole a flat look, who shrugged and remarked they were already granting preferential titles to certain units already, so Allen pushed on, "Then there is the matter of blotched earth tone patterns."
"Camoflage, the Germans were doing it as an experiment just didn't have time to go somewhere," He paused, "The men, rightfully take pride in their uniforms, its one thing for the regimental scouts to put ghillie suits on and trek off into the brush, and the jackets are one thing, but they're still field gray, its uniform."
"We can talk about it, but approving field uniforms will mean a lot of talk and study, especially if its for men already receiving trucks, and more so." The driving problem with such talks, "Is that the doctor's northern expedition into Hunan is a problem." It was floundering and had stalled as the provincial authorities shifted their weight to move against the guomindang, but Sun had made the attempt. An attempt that had brought a significant portion of the already conservative Hui gentry in Shensi who were already quick to remind in the papers that Bai Lang ten years earlier had been an avid supporter of the southern doctor, and had continued to voice support for the guomindang's cause as he pillaged the countryside until he'd take a bullet through the face in the summer of 1914.
They hadn't told the French legation, nor really to express any interest to Renault though they had made comments to Ford, what they were doing, but they'd left enough of the tanks in Russia it had been easy to put hands on more than a few. It was also why the Whites were here on the proving ground in their corner of the North China Plain. Given what Zhang was doing it was a wonder that Ungern hadn't sent out the invitation he was talking about fort his armor school idea of everyone getting together... everyone had these Renault 17s after all... and Zhang was already making his own. That had been where most of his automotive efforts had gone as he worked with his Japanese friends.
The British tanks were unique to themselves and the Cossacks though. The 'protected radio carrier tank' had utility... which was to say it had more space. The French tank was too cramped for everything they wanted to do with it. The FT17 also didn't have the firepower that their red legs wanted from it either. The Mk1 tanks were supposed to divide up with batteries and relay information regarding fires back and forth from headquarters in order to maximize the artillery. In theory they were supposed to be able to talk to spotter aircraft but coordinating that still needed more practice and the ETS work here suggested that was going to take more time. Eventually though, the protected radio carrier might be able to serve as the eyes for ground born spotters.
"The FT might as well be an armored car," Waite grumbled as the 8mm Colt Browning in the turrent chattered away down slope as it driven forward. "I'm going to see about trying to fit them with 1 pounder belt feds to start with." He didn't seem optimistic about the prospect, but there were others who wanted to go that route, "I'm pretty sure that we've got enough people who are used to them we can test them out and see whether its worth a damn."
"And if that doesn't work?"
"If it don't?" He blew out a breath, "Well I don't see why I couldn't make it work, but from the way things went in Ekatrinburg. The 1pdr is getting long in the tooth." Yet it was still the standard automatic cannon in use by the armored cars and with some of the heavy weapon teams, but the romanov rescue had shown some of its deficits.
The talks in Europe were still ongoing but they needed a higher pressure, and most likely long barreled weapon that was flat shooting. Such a familiar refrain that was. That was taking time and slowing a replacement.
"If it doesn't work," Dawes interjected, "We'll have to do something more, and that will have to wait until we have more data." The older man remarked, "Chances are we're gonna use these mostly as machine gun carriers, and the army," Back home, in the states, "Has a fifty caliber, its an upscaled 30'06, but this is mechanized we put them in the turret and as a heavy machine gun would do good to support infantry."
But it wouldn't give them the advantage, the fire power needed to smash protected fighting positions, never mind bunkers... the 1pdr didn't have the oomph for that and half inch bullets certainly weren't going to. "What will you do about it?" Allen questioned.
"Frankly, allowing that yes thats true, what I'd suggest is replacing the assembly of our existing colt brownings."
"Excuse me?"
Waite looked on to the comment, but Dawes gestured to the FT, "The Pom Pom is something we've used for years. I acknowledge that we can get it to work but for supporting infantry I think a larger bullet stable at prolonged distances would be more effective in the field. As a machine gun carrier, the one pdr is too low pressure so until we find something better, and its ready a machine gun a heavy machine gun is a better for what we need for most the fighting we're doing." He shook his head, "Now I recognize that its an intermediate solution... but you're not going to like my proposed solution any better, but you want to hear it?"
"Of course I want to hear it?"
"I want a mechanized tractor that throws a large high explosive charge." Hence why Xian would eventually adopt a tread born 3 Inch cased HE initially in short barrel configuration mounted in a turret, for the explicit purpose of defeating Infantry in the Open, or the defeating of enemy entrenchments and protected fighting positions in support of Infantry advance... thus the term motorized gun carriage as it was in Red Leg documents.
--
Allen unfolded his hands, and glanced at the force arrangement on the table. It wasn't really what he was thinking about, he'd seen the cables from the west, from England as the fallout began to shift over the Weimar and the bolsheviks agreement. It was worrying, and he expected that Percy would come storming in any moment now.
"So what do you think?" Cole asked turning a paper, he cocked his head, "I know we can't be a frontier constabulary, but a reaction force from the regulars, we need to be able to move quickly."
"Its a little on the nose don't you think?" He asked.
"What Gray Ghosts?" Cullen chuckled in amusement at his own wit, "The Brigade needed something," Now that the Gendarmes were standing up regional division level offices, and recruiting regular troopers to meet the needs of covering really seven provinces, while still being active on the line, "shock troops, quick moving and carbines, I'd say we give them Federov's rifles," the problem there besides the complex manufacturing being the ammunition, that 6.5 Arisaka being semi rimmed and not something they produced, "if we could." Lewis's sub machine gun, as was the accepted vernacular in English, was still an option but the truth was they needed something lighter, simpler. "Lewis's Assault Phase Rifle will be stout," Not the least of which was it was fairly light... and if you'll beg my pardon, might be better to forget this automatic option at all."
"Griswold wants to be sure of a universal detachable magazine," For eight millimeter, "I understand given the length of the cartridge and the number of rifles we have that has certain geometrical impediments." The Colt Brownings were exempt they were belt fed guns and had been simplified from the original design and were going to be entering mass production to all units just as soon as they could that would include 2nd and 4th Division receiving large numbers. "He wants to send Bill to the Czechs, and Poles to see if they'll bite on the idea."
"You don't think they will?" There was a pause, "We've had some success, and frankly it bears in mind brother John and we should remind them, we started by buying abroad, but also licensing what we needed. It stands to reason they could do the same."
Such that he understood it, it was a doctrine thing, "The Europeans don't seem to want to use detachable magazines," They'd found that out trying to push rifles to among others the Poles, and the newly freed states of the baltics. "Ordinance back home seems to abhor the idea as encouraging waste. On the other hand a twenty round detachable double stack magazine from sheet steel is going to be in expensive." Something that for their automatic riflemen was ideal, because the men could afford to lose the mags in a fight "Its not 1880, and even with ten rounders," Like they had originally experimented back when Bai Lang had been running around, "they'll be cheap, cheap enough that we can issue them out to 1stand 3rd come the fall. What I understand from this proposal is that you want these men to be added to that broader formation."
"If its ready." He replied, both officers cognizant of the disturbances to the north east... and the mustering armies of Zhili and Fengtien branches of the Beiyang Army. A hundred thousand men was a lot of men, and the two branches could both swing that kind of weight... and the problem was that it was already April, Summer was right around the corner and that meant fighting seemed likely, it was when people planned to fight campaigns. Cullen shoved his hands in his trousers and walked to the window looking out in the yard. "We're gonna have to tell the men something. This feudal way of doing things has to stop."
As Cullen stared out the window Allen thumbed through the report of the brigade, and more correctly what the two star commanding the element was requesting to bring his combined arms force into strength. The Engineer, the commanding officer of the formation was an engineer by education and profession, was thirty three years old. He had completed the staff college just ahead of the mess in Zhengzhou, and had been posted to combat engineer battalion which had gone on since to form the core of the combined arms unit. "This says he wants full mechanization of infantry," Which was fine, "He goes on, and as I assume this is Dawes that he wants a five inch towed mortar company and accompany logistical support."
"Yep, there are also those rockets the red legs are playing with, break up bandit formations in the open to keep them from causing trouble en masse. Horse charges especially."
"The logic is sound, so the moniker?"
Cullen wheeled on his heel, "Conflicting I guess, the mechanization is good for them, but when it comes down to it, there is the distinction of what they're supposed to do. Given what we've asked of them brother John, if you'll beg my pardon we're asking them to be cavalry in an army that doesn't have a branch for it."
He thumbed through the pages again, "Yes, what we ask and have asked of the brigade in study is that it is the element of security and armed reconnaissance on the frontier and to find and fix an enemy for the division to meet and beat them in detail." He blew out a breath, "And of course there is the argument that they're asking for additional aid men to be allocated to the formation, that mounting them in vehicles, makes them mounted infantry,"
"If you prefer we could call them dragoons,"
He gave Cole a flat look, who shrugged and remarked they were already granting preferential titles to certain units already, so Allen pushed on, "Then there is the matter of blotched earth tone patterns."
"Camoflage, the Germans were doing it as an experiment just didn't have time to go somewhere," He paused, "The men, rightfully take pride in their uniforms, its one thing for the regimental scouts to put ghillie suits on and trek off into the brush, and the jackets are one thing, but they're still field gray, its uniform."
"We can talk about it, but approving field uniforms will mean a lot of talk and study, especially if its for men already receiving trucks, and more so." The driving problem with such talks, "Is that the doctor's northern expedition into Hunan is a problem." It was floundering and had stalled as the provincial authorities shifted their weight to move against the guomindang, but Sun had made the attempt. An attempt that had brought a significant portion of the already conservative Hui gentry in Shensi who were already quick to remind in the papers that Bai Lang ten years earlier had been an avid supporter of the southern doctor, and had continued to voice support for the guomindang's cause as he pillaged the countryside until he'd take a bullet through the face in the summer of 1914.
ATP
Well worn.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2020
- Messages
- 6,080
FT17 was indeed not worth building,wait for Vickers E. And tank with 76 mm howitzer for infrantry build on tractor chasis seems legit.
Fedorov for elites - good idea,but made some better semi automatic rifle for rest of the army,too.
5 inch towed mortar - you could just built Brandt 120mm mortar before 1935,first version was on wheels and served as artillery piece.
Camoflage - very good idea.
Fedorov for elites - good idea,but made some better semi automatic rifle for rest of the army,too.
5 inch towed mortar - you could just built Brandt 120mm mortar before 1935,first version was on wheels and served as artillery piece.
Camoflage - very good idea.