With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

xSieg · Sep 3, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
I haven't picked one. Suggestions on the back of a postcard.

Earth 777, as the Trinity(less) universe? It would be also thematically fitting as the universe "after" Earth 666, as 7 is considered to be God's number in some theological interpretations.

angelazreal1 · Sep 3, 2022

What are John's powers now? Is He still Lord of both Chaos and Order? I'm unclear how recombining all his parts have affected him.

PDV · Sep 3, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
I haven't picked one. Suggestions on the back of a postcard.

10199 is cipher for JSI. 97 or 997 for "(round number) minus trinity".

Stsword · Sep 3, 2022

Tzeentch said:
Considering he exists simultaneously as an angry fairy, a prisoner in a shrub, enchanted in a cave, is a demon lord or is even a corpse or two, (Jason Blood's friend Harry Matthews once commented that Merlin has more Graves than he has ex-wives), I'd say it's a VERY impressive sort of Magic, undoubtedly connected to and/or one and the same with what he used to give Timothy Hunter a Multiple-Choice Past.

In Tim Hunter's adventures in the Vertigo universe, Merlin is not just a name, it's a title, the embodiment of magic. Which is why it's on Tim's shoulders whether magic is good, evil, or goes away in the future. Tim Hunter is Merlin. Or rather the current Merlin. So as Tim goes so does magic.

In Seven Soldiers, New Earth, they made it clear that there were multiple Camelots. Sir Justin is from a Camelot in the 6th century. Ystina is from a Camelot in 8000 BC. Just as Ystina and Justin would probably have a very confused discussion about two different King Arthurs, I imagine they would talk about two different Merlins as well.

I imagine one could canon wield the two, so eventually Tim Hunter will feel this urge to get into politics and be responsible for some guy named Arthur King becoming the new Prime Minister.

Steelplaza · Sep 3, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
I check no one else is around.

"I read about it in a comic book. He was talking about his life with Merlin's severed head."

Mr Zoat said:
"Yeah, mate. I'll-."

There's a grey flash, and then Interceptor is floating next to us. She looks at me, then John, then the rows of graves beneath us.

Given that the only precaution the SI took was to "check no one else is around" and that Interceptor has Kryptonian hearing and can hear things even if she isn't "around", I wonder if she overheard that admission about comic books. It probably doesn't matter that much since what would she even do with that information, but it's dangerous to be too loose-lipped if a Kryptonian is anywhere within hundreds of miles.

dw7thdoctor · Sep 3, 2022

Steelplaza said:
Given that the only precaution the SI took was to "check no one else is around" and that Interceptor has Kryptonian hearing and can hear things even if she isn't "around", I wonder if she overheard that admission about comic books. It probably doesn't matter that much since what would she even do with that information, but it's dangerous to be too loose-lipped if a Kryptonian is anywhere within hundreds of miles.

It doesn't state it but he probably put up a sound barrier too.

Windona · Sep 3, 2022

If it's not taken, Earth 36, the year Superman debuted minus three. (IMO 777 should be reserved for a lucky universe). 205 for the number of communist spies McCarthy said he had on his list, seeing as the Red Scare was what led to the JSI to change here

Tzeentch · Sep 3, 2022

Stsword said:
In Seven Soldiers, New Earth, they made it clear that there were multiple Camelots. Sir Justin is from a Camelot in the 6th century. Ystina is from a Camelot in 8000 BC. Just as Ystina and Justin would probably have a very confused discussion about two different King Arthurs, I imagine they would talk about two different Merlins as well.

I wonder the same applies to Jason Blood and Etrigan.... but with them being the same man and demon having lived for thousands of years instead of centuries, obeying every incarnation of Merlin.

Stsword · Sep 3, 2022

Tzeentch said:
I wonder the same applies to Jason Blood and Etrigan.... but with them being the same man and demon having lived for thousands of years instead of centuries, obeying every incarnation of Merlin.

I have never seen him portrayed that way, but I do vaguely remember a story that indicates that Jason has been mindfucked and doesn't actually remember his past as he should.

So I could see a story doing that and it not straining my suspension of disbelief like some retcons do.

AR760 · Sep 3, 2022

Agumentic said:
Because he wasn't faces with the possible end result of his actions and advice before that.

Again, his problem is not with the decision they reached, but rather with how they reached it and how they behaved after they reached it. It's not even that he can exactly disagree with it, he just doesn't like it and doesn't want Justice League to become that.

When I ask about the alternative, I was more getting at how exactly would Paul have found it better if they reached that decision differently and how they behaved afterwords? Like, would it have suddenly been cool with OL if Alan and co were nonfunctioning wrecks after making the call they did? It's been years since the original decision after all, and there were still wars to fight and populations to maintain.

If he wanted them to reach that decision differently, what would have made it better? They were the only ones who could make that call, and they didn't have an unlimited window to decide either since the Dominators were right there. Plus we don't know how they made the decision. We never saw that scene. For all we know, it was just as contentious and rough as OL might have hoped for.

Essentially, Paul seems to be going I don't like that, but doesn't explain the exact problem he has or what would have been the better alternative, which is what leads me to being confused to exactly where and what his problem is and why he is meant to be believably responding as strongly as he is.

topin89 said:
Not out of nowhere. It was clearly shown why he likes Alan so much.

So, when it was Commander Scott saying It's fine that dominator was killed, she probably experimented a lot on someone else anyway and there is "some merit" in holding his son as a living anti-power weapon, Paul was shaken hard. It became obvious what would happened if everyone would follow his example and he did not like it. Look at chapter title, "Feasibility Study". So, study shows his ideal image of superhero is unfeasible and the way it goes probably leads to cold-hearted and not at all inspiring pragmatism.
More than that, it's his follower, Interceptor, leaned more to "just use him as a device and won't tell anyone". So I guess cold pragmatism is inspiring, just not in the direction OL want.

I guess he really wanted for heroes to be idealistic to some degree, if a bit more pragmatic and being able to make hard moral decisions without BSOD'ing hard.

That is the point, I guess. This last chapter Paul said:

"I'm not sure I'd even want to". Looks like Orange Enlightened person still can be unsure what does he actually want. No contradiction by the way, the moment he'll understand his vision of a hero, he'll be instantly aware.

Regarding the Alan being the jarring bit, if that were really the foundation of the problem, it would suggest that he isn't looking at Alan so much as a person then as a symbol or icon or stereotype. Which would be odd to me, especially since we know OL knows Alan has it in him to be a soldier. To kill. To make the tough decisions. And so on and so on.

Pragmatism by virtue of its very nature tends to be something removed from Idealism. It is making the most efficient, best perceived choice you can at the time considering your resources and information, absent of normal ideological constraints.

That's the thing. You can't complain about wanting Superheroes to be inspiring while at the same time wanting them to make the pragmatic choices, because ultimately those kinds of choices aren't inspiring. Paul should know this. I feel like I remember him even stating something along the lines of icons not being able to make, or even consider pragmatic choices because the thing which makes them icons means they don't even consider those choices.

Regarding Alan's son, what would Orange Lantern have preferred? There didn't seem to be better option, and trying to treat him could open up Pandora's Pithos. OL even agreed with that.

There are magic means to treat mental illnesses, though none of them are reliable either. Given the risk he poses and the crimes he's already committed, it isn't right to risk the lives of everyone on the planet by letting him out. And he is more reliably contained at the moment than the JSI could do with the resources at their disposal.

It feels like he is essentially coming across as a kid who hates the situation as it currently stands, but has no ideas or suggestions of his own, but is angry because there isn't a magical button to take out the complexity and simplify the situation into a binary moral choice with one clearly right answer.

Which feels contrary in some ways to the character we've been following for the longest time, with what feels like relatively little buildup.

jonasquinn · Sep 4, 2022

Windona said:
Having a good apparatus to reduce error matters little if you don't actually take their advice into account and think you automatically know best and have considered everything they can possibly add.

Then it's a damn good thing that OL doesn't do that and regularly seeks out the advice of experts and looks for alternate solutions

Windona said:
That the utilitarian choice isn't always the right choice (what's that line about good guys not being a shirt you wear but having to not do certain things?). That being able to rationalize terrible things, and even having a grain of truth to that, doesn't always a hero make.

Those are hard arguments to make when the example being used is one where the utilitarian solution was absolutely the best one since the only other option was the extinction of humanity

Windona said:
We see a lot of this with how Paul mentions how some of the stuff the JSI does is stuff he's been trying to convince people to implement.

But it's a completely ridiculous comparison, the JSI didn't suddenly become the organisation it is because it just so happens to have some of the things that OL thinks the League would benefit from they became what they are because they were forced into an unwinnable situation that OL has done his best to ensure the League will never have to deal with

Agumentic said:
"What was the alternative" is not the point here. JSI's decision was pretty reasonable, all things told. Maybe there was a better option, maybe there wasn't, maybe there was a way to do what they did better - that's all secondary. The point is, despite it being reasonable, Paul doesn't like it when people - or perhaps heroes in particular - behave like that, and he dislikes when they hold the kind of character that allows them to calmly logic their way to such a decision, whether it was right or not, despite having largely the same character himself.

But it's not really secondary though, in order for any issue OL might have to be reasonable there has to have been a better option otherwise he's tacitly saying he'd rather the League let humanity be destroyed rather than compromise their morals which is ridiculous and the opposite of who OL is

Agumentic said:
So, he wants better superheroes, but when faced with one of the end results of his current attempts to improve them, he realized that he doesn't want that. So now he needs time to rethink where and how he wants to improve superheroing, and engages in uncomplicated good works in the meanwhile.

Again, the JSI has next to no similarities with the things OL has suggested to the League and what similarities there are aren't the problem

Assblaster5000 said:
Which is largely the rub here. He wouldn't be reacting quite this strongly if it wasn't (an) Alan saying any of this. Basically every version of Paul that we've seen interact with Alan for basically any period of time has come to the conclusion that he's functionally as uncompromisingly good as people get.

Ignoring the fact that Alan fought in WW2 and definitely killed people and OL has met Capo Scott

Assblaster5000 said:
He's basically had one of his closest friends and Super-Grandpa tell him murder is ok and if you need to kill off some j-walkers that's fine and dandy, which isn't just the exact opposite of what he would expect Alan to say but also something he's opposed to most heroes saying on principle.

Thats an enormous exaggeration of what Commander Scott said though, what he actually said is more along the lines of "It was a horrible decision that it pained me to make but it was the only one I could make and I fully intend to be held responsible once I ensure the organisation doesn't fall apart without me"

Agumentic said:
Because he wasn't faces with the possible end result of his actions and advice before that

Once again, how the hell does OL's advice end up here!?

Agumentic said:
Again, his problem is not with the decision they reached, but rather with how they reached it and how they behaved after they reached it. It's not even that he can exactly disagree with it, he just doesn't like it and doesn't want Justice League to become that.

But he knows absolutely nothing about how they reached the decision or how difficult it was for them to make not to mention that he's turning up 15 years after the event, are they all supposed to still be falling apart over it?

I think a big part of my issue here is that neither we nor OL have enough information about the situation for him to be reacting the way he is, sure he might decide he doesn't want the League to end up willing to do awful things like the JSI is but they're only that easy because of the Dominator invasion and I don't see any connection between that and OL's behaviour

Agumentic · Sep 4, 2022

jonasquinn said:
But it's not really secondary though, in order for any issue OL might have to be reasonable there has to have been a better option otherwise he's tacitly saying he'd rather the League let humanity be destroyed rather than compromise their morals which is ridiculous and the opposite of who OL is

As I said, his problem is not with the decision they reached, but with their logic and character while they were reaching it. Sure, perhaps other felt worse that commander Scott, but he is the one leading the JSI.

jonasquinn said:
Again, the JSI has next to no similarities with the things OL has suggested to the League and what similarities there are aren't the problem

It has many, though. Hell, he wanted to borrow their SOP Bible just now to look through it because their behavior was so in-line with his advice.

AR760 said:
Like, would it have suddenly been cool with OL if Alan and co were nonfunctioning wrecks after making the call they did?

jonasquinn said:
But he knows absolutely nothing about how they reached the decision or how difficult it was for them to make not to mention that he's turning up 15 years after the event, are they all supposed to still be falling apart over it?

They didn't need to be non-functioning wrecks or falling apart, but any amount of regret or shame more than "This was the best decision we could make, not only Dominators left, but we also reduced the crime and got enough power to prevent another attack, why would I feel bad about it? People we sold to Dominators? Oh well, they were mostly assholes anyway, and we even managed to save some that weren't just now, I am not losing any sleep over it" commander Scott expressed would be more in line with what OL wants heroes to be.

BR549 · Sep 4, 2022

In a nutshell:

OL has no problem with hard men making hard decisions. That's called life. As Commander Adama said, sometimes you have to roll the hard six, and his observations have been that the superhero sort are, in most cases, not aligned with such a pragmatic viewpoint.

OL's problem is the situation expressed by the meme of 'hard men making hard decisions while hard' - making the decision and then laughing it off, going to bed and sleeping soundly for eight hours while people die due to the decisions they made. While the JSI wasn't quite to that point, the 'I did what I had to do and it improved things for everyone but the assholes, who cares about them' attitude displayed is far too close to that for comfort, and the fact it came from Alan Alter especially shook him.

To use an example of a person I think is respectable for having a similar attitude, see The Operative from Serenity. He does monstrous things, knows they are monstrous, and continues to do them because he believes them to be necessary things...and because they are both necessary and monstrous, he's determined to keep doing them himself, because that way nobody else has to have those monstrous things on their conscience.

The difference is the Operative freely knows and accepts that he's damned for his actions. Commander Scott might regret them in principle, but he doesn't feel as if they're any sort of mark against him despite that.

That is what Constantine laid out for Paul here, and what Paul is so troubled by, because it's the first real time he's seen the logical end-state of the arguments he's made so stridently from the outside.

Mr Zoat · Sep 4, 2022

25th October 2013
11:57 GMT -7

A convoy of brightly-coloured intelligent vehicles drives at speed down through Cybertron's lower levels. Though Cybertron is gradually restoring itself the process hasn't penetrated deeply yet, and in several places they're forced to transform and climb, or use their weapons to make a passageway. The damage here is… Sporadic, when compared to the surface. Individual locations that were heavily fought over are just as crashed as anything that could be found in the streets in the cities above at the end of the War for Cybertron, but in other places the machinery is entirely pristine. You could stand there and imagine that the war had never happened.

But for the silence.

The red car at the back of the formation wishes there was more silence. Because he's hearing things from the organics sitting on his formerly pristine leather seats that are filling his cognition circuits with all kinds of disturbing images.

"Jack… Okay, look. Clearly this is a conversation you need to have with someone. Your father's not around any more, you don't have any uncles and Optimus Prime's dead, so it's either me or Agent Fowler. I've got more experience, but you actually like him, so it's up-."

"Hey, w-? What?!"

"Your relationship with Arcee. What you want out of it. What you want your relationship to be. Teenagers need an adult to kick them up the 'aft' occasionally, so here I am."

"I just-. I wanna be her partner, you know?"

"Yes, of all the humans in the universe, I do know. But I think you've got the wrong idea about how that works."

The red car notes -then tries to stop noticing, because organics, urgh- that Jack appears to calm down slightly.

"What d'you mean?"

"They're giant robots. We're tiny meatbags. We're never going to be able to fight like they do. Hoping that you can contribute in that way is ridiculous."

"Miko got to fight like they do."

"With the Apex Armour?" A sullen nod and a red velocitronian trying to wish he hadn't watched enough human entertainment transmissions to recognise that. "There's one in the universe and they don't know how to make any more. And even if you used it, you don't have a million years' worth of experience in warfare to draw on when using it."

"But that's..! That's what Arcee does."

"Have you ever talked to her about anything else?"

"Ah…" Jack blinks, his eyes moving to stare at the walls as he tries to-.

Around them, Knock Out discovers that he can roll his eyes in vehicle form. Oh, if he's going to be forced to watch this then he might as well watch it.

As Jack tries to remember if he ever talked to his sidecar about her life.

"I mean, she… Told me about Tailgate and Cliffjumper. But when she talked about Cybertron it was mostly about how the Decepticons wrecked it. The only things we really talked about that didn't have anything to do with the war was stuff about me."

"Yes, Slipstream was like that when we first met. Transformers have been fighting for a very long time, and sometimes that means they get tunnel vision. They forget that there are other things they can do. She probably finds your life fascinating because it's been so long since she came into contact with anything outside fighting."

"Huh. But I… Should ask her about other things, right?"

"Yes. She's not going to learn how to do things other than fighting from a bunch of other transformer soldiers. Honestly, that's probably the best thing you can do for her."

"I can… I can do that. Is that how it worked with you and Slipstream?"

"Basically. She wanted to search for Decepticon transmissions, I asked why, she explained the war, and she couldn't explain why she wanted to start fighting again." Paul looks at Jack for a moment. "So are you committing to a romantic relationship, or are you trying to be a good friend?"

"I wanna be a good friend. But… How would that-? Uh." Fuel tubes in the human's face dilate, causing it to redden. "How..? I mean..."

"Are you trying to ask how the sex works?"

"…"

"Don't worry, I can just about remember being your age. The first thing you have to remember is that transformers don't reproduce like we do. And most of them don't know how that works."

Knock Out knows how it works. Knock Out is painfully aware of how it works. Humans, combiner pistons aren't that interesting. They don't need to take up 4% of your entire noosphere.

"So you just… Don't? But your implants, you said-?"

"My implants allow us to plug our minds into each other. Transformers are aliens with a very different mental setup to us. When she flies, it's-. I can feel it like she feels it, the motion of air over her wings, her tracking obstacles and targets and I'm aware of it all in the same way that she's aware of it. It's incredible, really. I've flown in planes before but it doesn't compare at all."

He's been in her cockpit feeling her fly? Oh this is just filth. Horrible, appealing filth.

"And in return… You know that transformers live off energon?" Jack nods. "They've always lived off energon. But for a human, that would be like eating by injecting fresh blood into your arteries. They have almost no sense of taste, and what they have doesn't have the same emotional component that human eating does."

Jack nods. "But when she's plugged into you, she can taste what you taste?"

"Sort of. It's more that her cognitive systems try to mirror the structures in my brain, but… Yes. It's a form of pleasure that she's never experienced before. To start with she found it disturbing, but now she's.. really into it."

"Huh. I could… I mean, it's not the same as…" Jack shifts awkwardly on his seat. "So..? You..? Can't..?"

"Can't have sex?" Jack winces, but awkwardly nods. "Not exactly. She doesn't have the parts, because transformers don't reproduce like that. There's some things you can't do with a giant robot. But since I do have the parts, and our bond lets her feel what I feel, and since even though she's a lot bigger than me her proprioception is extremely good, we… Make do."

"P-proprioception?"

"Her sense of her own body's movement and position. To be blunt, when she touches my erogenous zones it feels like she's touching parts of her body she doesn't have, and she experiences the same pleasure that I do."

"… Oh."

"Though we have been trying to get data on improved avatars and cyber-organic interface technologies, so who knows what the future might bring."

He was going to spray-wash his seats. No, no, not even that. Take them out, throw them in a plasma pyre and get some replacements built by a hermetic priest of Quintus Prime in the vague hope that would make him feel clean again and why couldn't he deactivate his auditory pickups?

Oh. Because this is the most interesting conversation he's overheard since that thing with Swindle and Trickdiamond.

In a flash of disquieting insight Knock Out understands what Paul is talking about regarding Cybertronians having narrow horizons.

"So have you made a decision?"

"I'm, um…" Jack coughs awkwardly. "I… I think I'll… I'll talk to her about it."

"No, too vague. What is your intent?"

"I-. I wanna-." Jack closes his eyes for a moment and takes a deep breath. "I wanna date her. I want to be with her."

Paul smiles. "Good choice! I assume that you're going to want the implants?"

"Ye-. I mean, not right now, but… If she says yes…"

"I'll talk to my chirurgeon. It's probably best to wait until you finish growing, anyway."

"Do you think she'll..? Say 'yes'?"

"If she was going to say 'no', she'd have done it the moment she found out about me and Slipstream. You just need to work out how to talk her into trying it."

AR760 · Sep 4, 2022

Agumentic said:
They didn't need to be non-functioning wrecks or falling apart, but any amount of regret or shame more than "This was the best decision we could make, not only Dominators left, but we also reduced the crime and got enough power to prevent another attack, why would I feel bad about it? People we sold to Dominators? Oh well, they were mostly assholes anyway, and we even managed to save some that weren't just now, I am not losing any sleep over it" commander Scott expressed would be more in line with what OL wants heroes to be.

That's basically saying that OL would have been completely okay with the state of affairs as it went down so long as there was a performative scene of outward regret or emotional turmoil as to the consequences and the series of events which took place. That he was looking for the performance, or to check off those particular boxes.

If that is the case, then that is a completely shallow display of emotion and motivations for OL, and would merely seem to be...I don't know. Kind of ridiculous? More like he wants to have the display so he can continue to be able to continue justifying his considering Alan and company good people, regardless of the underlying action or actions under discussion

Nothing substantive would have changed, but merely the display would have been enough to get him to be okay with what happened. Neglecting the fact that in universe it had been years since the original experience, and the hardening experience of having been raided by an alien civilization and having to make the only call left on the table to play.

Wanting there to be a performative display to accompany the situation as it stood at the end feels like a weak place or justification to seem to drive this alleged come to jesus experience on the part of the MC if your interpretation is indeed the correct one imo.

Gazing Eye · Sep 4, 2022

Ah Knockout always love some juicy drama

BR549 · Sep 4, 2022

Poor, poor Knockout. Having a soap opera plot play out inside his own cabin area!

Mr Zoat said:
He's been in her cockpit feeling her fly? Oh this is just filth. Horrible, appealing filth.

"This is filth, FILTH!"

Handlewithcare · Sep 4, 2022

Haha, poor, bi(o)-curious Knockout XD

"This is revolting!"

"More?"

"Yes, please!"

Joelseph14 · Sep 4, 2022

Damn Knockout is the type of pervert that covers his eyes and peeks through his fingers

Darko · Sep 4, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
And most of they don't know how that works."

"of them"

Mr Zoat said:
They don't need to take up 4% of your entire noosphere.

This feels like a small number.

Mr Zoat said:
He's been in her cockpit feeling her fly? Oh this is just filth. Horrible, appealing filth.

Oh, you love it.

Mr Zoat said:
"And it return… You know

"And in"

Mr Zoat said:
"Can't have sex?" Jack winces, but awkwardly nods. "Not exactly. She doesn't have the parts, because transformers don't reproduce like that. There's some things you can't do with a giant robot. But since I do have the parts, and our bond lets her feel what I feel, and since even though she's a lot bigger than me her proprioception is extremely good, we… Make do

...

...you masturbate and let her feel you pleasure...?

Mr Zoat said:
why couldn't he deactivate his auditory pickups

Because you're a sexually curious creature and you want to hear.

Mr Zoat said:
Oh. Because this is the most interesting conversation he's overheard since that thing with Swindle and Trickdiamond.

Yep.

Lord Ernest · Sep 4, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
He's been in her cockpit feeling her fly? Oh this is just filth. Horrible, appealing filth.

Damn. That's some lewd hand-holding type of stuff! No wonder Knock Out is so appalled. More please!

Sceptic · Sep 4, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Horrible, appealing filth.

The best kind of filth is the appalling stuff. Next best is the appealing stuff. And all of it's what we're on QQ for.

deccan2008 · Sep 4, 2022

Sounds to me like this should be an Eros chapter.

Mr Zoat · Sep 4, 2022

Darko said:
"of them"
"And in"

Thank you, corrected.

This feels like a small number.

You can increase it if you like. I'm not stopping you.

But that's not the percentage usage, that's the percentage that exists. If no one's looking at 90% of content, the number is going to feel skewed.

...you masturbate and let her feel you pleasure...?

Transformers in Prime have surprisingly flexible lips.

Vaermina · Sep 4, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Transformers in Prime have surprisingly flexible lips.

Transformers in Prime have surprisingly flexible everything.

Chojin Patriarch · Sep 4, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
25th October 2013
11:57 GMT -7

A convoy of brightly-coloured intelligent vehicles drives at speed down through Cybertron's lower levels. Though Cybertron is gradually restoring itself the process hasn't penetrated deeply yet, and in several places they're forced to transform and climb, or use their weapons to make a passageway. The damage here is… Sporadic, when compared to the surface. Individual locations that were heavily fought over are just as crashed as anything that could be found in the streets in the cities above at the end of the War for Cybertron, but in other places the machinery is entirely pristine. You could stand there and imagine that the war had never happened.

And yes, folks, Cybertron is big. Not necessarily large - some depictions are smaller than the Moon - but rather, dense. Those plates across the 'surface'? Those are mega-structures the size of continents. Some of those buildings you see would dwarf Olympus Mons. And now you see why it took eons for their war to play out...

But for the silence.

The red car at the back of the formation wishes there was more silence. Because he's hearing things from the organics sitting on his formerly pristine leather seats that are filling his cognition circuits with all kinds of disturbing images.

Ah, Knockout. You're gonna need a primo-deluxe detailing after this, won't you?

"Jack… Okay, look. Clearly this is a conversation you need to have with someone. Your father's not around any more, you don't have any uncles and Optimus Prime's dead, so it's either me or Agent Fowler. I've got more experience, but you actually like him, so it's up-."

"Hey, w-? What?!"

And while you may have had the Talk, I don't think the American version covered relationships with giant alien mechanical life-forms.

"Your relationship with Arcee. What you want out of it. What you want your relationship to be. Teenagers need an adult to kick them up the 'aft' occasionally, so here I am."

"I just-. I wanna be her partner, you know?"

There's many kinds of 'partners', kid. And I don't think you want to leave it at 'workmates'.

"Yes, of all the humans in the universe, I do know. But I think you've got the wrong idea about how that works."

The red car notes -then tries to stop noticing, because organics, urgh- that Jack appears to calm down slightly.

Oh, stop pretending this isn't better than any telenovela you've no doubt got stashed on your hard drives.

"What d'you mean?"

"They're giant robots. We're tiny meatbags. We're never going to be able to fight like they do. Hoping that you can contribute in that way is ridiculous."

Unless you somehow discover hither-to unknown superpowers, anyway.

"Miko got to fight like they do."

"With the Apex Armour?" A sullen nod and a red velocitronian trying to wish he hadn't watched enough human entertainment transmissions to recognise that. "There's one in the universe and they don't know how to make any more. And even if you used it, you don't have a million years' worth of experience in warfare to draw on when using it."

Indeed, his entire life thus far isn't even a single Vorn of her life.

"But that's..! That's what Arcee does."

"Have you ever talked to her about anything else?"

I mean, plenty of bots had a life before the war... Those not sparked during the fighting, anyway.

"Ah…" Jack blinks, his eyes moving to stare at the walls as he tries to-.

Around them, Knockout discovers that he can roll is eyes in vehicle form. Oh, if he's going to be forced to watch this then he might as well watch it.

And I'm picturing his headlights pivoting in their sockets.

As Jack tries to remember when if he ever talked to his sidecar about her life.

"I mean, she… Told me about Tailgate and Cliffjumper. But when she talked about Cyberton it was mostly about how the Decepticons wrecked it. The only things we really talked about that didn't have anything to do with the war was stuff about me."

Heh, sidecar. Don't let her find out you called her that, Knockout, she might take exception to it, and give your paint-job a going over you won't like.

"Yes, Slipstream was like that when we first met. Transformers have been fighting for a very long time, and sometimes that means they get tunnel vision. They forget that there are other things they can do. She probably finds your life fascinating because it's been so long since she came into contact with anything outside fighting."

"Huh. But I… Should ask her about other things, right?"

Man, you've got to wonder what the various Vehicons are doing with themselves now that their sole job isn't 'disposable mook'...

"Yes. She's not going to learn how to do things other than fighting from a bunch of other transformer soldiers. Honestly, that's probably the best thing you can do for her."

"I can… I can do that. Is that how it worked with you and Slipstream?"

I imagine there was more yelling at first.

"Basically. She wanted to search for Decepticon transmissions, I asked why, she explained the war, and she couldn't explain why she wanted to start fighting again." Paul looks at Jack for a moment. "So are you committing to a romantic relationship, or are you trying to be a good friend?"

"I wanna be a good friend. But… How would that-? Uh." Fuel tubes in the human's face dilate, causing it to redden. "How..? I mean..."

Heh, a messy process, isn't it? If a cybertronian wanted to be able to do that, they'd probably have to have LED strips lining their faceplates...

"Are you trying to ask how the sex works?"

"…"

...And no, it doesn't involve 'docking ports' or 'data plugs' or anything like that.

You gutter-brained perverts.

"Don't worry, I can just about remember being your age. The first thing you have to remember is that transformers don't reproduce like we do. And most of they don't know how that works."

Knockout knows how it works. Knockout is painfully aware of how it works. Humans, combiner pistons aren't that interesting. They don't need to take up 4% of your entire noosphere.

Wow, porn takes up that little of the internet? I wonder how that compares to social media content?

"So you just… Don't? But your implants, you said-?"

"My implants allow us to plug our minds into each other. Transformers are aliens with a very different mental setup to us. When she flies, it's-. I can feel it like she feels it, the motion of air over her wings, her tracking obstacles and targets and I'm aware of it all in the same way that she's aware of it. It's incredible, really. I've flown in planes before but it doesn't compare at all."

And of course, she can appear however she wants in a virtual environment, if his implants support that. Like the ultimate wet dream.

He's been in her cockpit feeling her fly? Oh this is just filth. Horrible, appealing filth.

"And it return… You know that transformers live off energon?" Jack nods. "They've always lived off energon. But for a human, that would be like eating by injecting fresh blood into your arteries. They have almost no sense of taste, and what they have doesn't have the same emotional component that human eating does."

Filth, Knockout? I don't see you asking them to stop.

Something of a secret xenophile, are we?

Jack nods. "But when she's plugged into you, she can taste what you taste?"

"Sort of. It's more that her cognitive systems try to mirror the structures in my brain, but… Yes. It's a form of pleasure that she's never experienced before. To start with she found it disturbing, but now she's.. really into it."

And in some continuities (especially fanon) Energon can be flavoured and tweaked. Often based on the energy source it was made from, in settings where that's possible. Like Solar-power-based Energon tasting 'bright and warm'.

"Huh. I could… I mean, it's not the same as…" Jack shifts awkwardly on his seat. "So..? You..? Can't..?"

"Can't have sex?" Jack winces, but awkwardly nods. "Not exactly. She doesn't have the parts, because transformers don't reproduce like that. There's some things you can't do with a giant robot. But since I do have the parts, and our bond lets her feel what I feel, and since even though she's a lot bigger than me her proprioception is extremely good, we… Make do."

Human are a tool-using species, after all. Although the age-old warning of 'Do Not Fist Android Girls' always applies.

Pinch hazards, you know.

"P-proprioception?"

"Her sense of her own body's movement and position. To be blunt, when she touches my erogenous zones it feels like she's touching parts of her body she doesn't have, and she experiences the same pleasure that I do."

I mean, with all the moving parts involved in transformation (especially in universes like the Movies), you'd have to be very good at knowing where each bit is and where it's going. There are some gears you don't want to grind...

"… Oh."

"Though we have been trying to get data on improved avatars and cyber-organic interface technologies, so who knows what the future might bring."

I don't doubt Jack's had some... Fascinating dreams about 'Sadie'. Which he can be excused for, she's...

Arcee did fine work.

He was going to spray-wash his seats. No, no, not even that. Take them out, throw them in a plasma pyre and get some replacements built by a hermetic priest of Quintus Prime in the vague hope that would make him feel clean again and why couldn't he deactivate his auditory pickups?

Oh. Because this is the most interesting conversation he's overheard since that thing with Swindle and Trickdiamond.

I bet those two got along like a house on fire. Right down to the burning and explosions and ash...

In a flash of disquieting insight Knockout understands what Paul is talking about regarding transformers having narrow horizons..

"So have you made a decision?"

Having thoughts of finding a job outside the military, Knockout? I'm sure you'd be popular as a cosmetician.

"I'm, um…" Jack coughs awkwardly. "I… I think I'll… I'll talk to her about it."

"No, too vague. What is your intent?"

Yeah, leave him like that and he'll hum and hah his way around the subject and never actually ask.

"I-. I wanna-." Jack closes his eyes for a moment and takes a deep breath. "I wanna date her. I want to be with her."

Paul smiles. "Good choice! I assume that you're going to want the implants?"

And there we go, folks. Violet and Orange.

"Ye-. I mean, not right now, but… If she says yes…"

"I'll talk to my chirurgeon. It's probably best to wait until you finish growing, anyway."

True. Don't want to burn you out on the experience before you're 21. Just ask Daniel Witwicky.

"Do you think she'll..? Say 'yes'?"

"If she was going to say 'no', she'd have done it the moment she found out about me and Slipstream. You just need to work out how to talk her into trying it."

Just don't pressure her, that's not how you treat a lady.

Man, talk about awkward conversations. I almost pity Knockout for having to listen to that. I don't he's ever going to feel clean, not matter how long he pressure-washes his chassis. But I suppose it's one that they had to have sooner or later. And better a little awkwardness now instead of months or years of longing and eventual disappointment. And better it be with the one person who knows what Jack needs to hear...

Around them, Knockout discovers that he can roll is eyes in vehicle form.

Around them, Knockout discovers that he can roll his eyes in vehicle form.

Agumentic · Sep 4, 2022

AR760 said:
That's basically saying that OL would have been completely okay with the state of affairs as it went down so long as there was a performative scene of outward regret or emotional turmoil as to the consequences and the series of events which took place. That he was looking for the performance, or to check off those particular boxes.

There's nothing "performative" about feeling bad about doing bad things, even - or perhaps especially - when they are necessary. Emotions are important, and whether one feels and what do they feel indicates very different mindsets. Considering mindsets is exactly what Paul judged and what he found not up to his liking, there's nothing shallow about that judgement.

Ngamer11 · Sep 4, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"With the Apex Armour?" A sullen nod and a red velocitronian trying to wish he hadn't watched enough human entertainment transmissions to recognise that. "There's one in the universe and they don't know how to make any more. And even if you used it, you don't have a million years' worth of experience in warfare to draw on when using it."

I think that link should encompass the entire word.

Mr Zoat said:
Around them, Knockout discovers that he can roll is eyes in vehicle form. Oh, if he's going to be forced to watch this then he might as well watch it.

Mr Zoat said:
Knockout knows how it works. Knockout is painfully aware of how it works. Humans, combiner pistons aren't that interesting. They don't need to take up 4% of your entire noosphere.

Mr Zoat said:
In a flash of disquieting insight Knockout understands what Paul is talking about regarding transformers having narrow horizons..

All of these should say 'Knock Out'. Also, there is an extra period in the last quote.

PrinceJonathan · Sep 4, 2022

Gazing Eye said:
Ah Knockout always love some juicy drama

For a second I thought it was Knockout giving Jack the cybertronian equivalent of the "sex talk" and I was laughing my ass off. It wasn't until halfway through I realized it was Paul.

Belenus · Sep 4, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
You can increase it if you like. I'm not stopping you.

We're all on QQ doing our best to increase it.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Making the rounds.

Stepping in it since I woke up.

Revelation That Uncertainty Is Itself An Answer

Versed in the lewd.

Custom Title

Getting sticky.

Beetle Queen of Crackshipping

Versed in the lewd.

Versed in the lewd.

Experienced.

I trust you know where the happy button is?

I trust you know where the happy button is?

This is filth! FILTH!!

Dedicated ragequitter

Experienced.

Compound, Lidless, Always Watching.

This is filth! FILTH!!

Versed in the lewd.

Know what you're doing yet?

Connoisseur.

At the End...

Critical Irrationalist

Getting out there.

Dedicated ragequitter

Well worn.

Veteran Lurker

I trust you know where the happy button is?

Experienced.

Versed in the lewd.

Versed in the lewd.

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