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Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

So, in theory, the Forge of Days and the Sun In Splendor should be there, beyond the Tricuspid. And I have to wonder what happens once we go in there.

And even if they're no longer there, because maybe they died AGAIN or something... then what?

(I kind of wonder if they might have turned into Alukites in there...)

in the game, passing the tricuspid makes you a LONG. that's the bare minimum that should happen. But there's no Hours to make us Names, and I'm not quite sure passing through the Tricuspid is enough to become an actual Hour.

So, personally, I think that we'll get a MAJOR advantage from passing through (as we'd AT LEAST become a Long, with all that implies), but I also think it's not the end of the game.
Does not matter uncontested control over the glory means who ever was left could order reality to their liking. The fact they did not is proof enough they are dead. Lesser things like Alukites and the like are meanness in comparison to the Glory.

[x] A self-invited guest
 
[X] A disturbed guest
[X] A host of guests


And then she starts discovering more, and basically we get a decent excuse to build up more of an Occult Library for Eclipse, to which the Bureau Agents would also (ideally) get access.
Ideally, the Occult library would be a shared project between bureau and eclipse.
Bureau absolutely needs the knowledge. Lore armes agents against the Lore armed threats. Rituals.
Bureau has important skills for the library (Investigation, finding stuff).
Eclipse needs the knowledge (making Loretools, researching rituals, etc)
Eclipse has important skills for the library.

So even with need-to-know principles, both need it, both are needed.

Fair Trial otoh could make do with borrowing experts.
So, in theory, the Forge of Days and the Sun In Splendor should be there, beyond the Tricuspid. And I have to wonder what happens once we go in there.
I stick with my conspiracy theory:
Forge merges Sun in Splendor and Forge of Days into something absolutely alien to both of them:
Harmony.

But that is just my conspiracy theory, got no evidence that its true.
 
[x] A self-invited guest
[X] A disturbed guest
 
So. I'll post this because this is a lot of firsts for a lot of us.

This site doesnt have an in-built vote tallying system, but looking around i believe QMs use an external program that performs a similar function.

So, just vote as you normally would. Write the option you want with an "X" inside the brackets like this:

[X] Pat Softy

-and the system should pick up on it.

Still, we will do a manual counting when this voting is done, just to make sure. And we will take things slowly until we all get our bearings.

That being said, I hope you are all doing well!

- - -

Voting is OPEN

Only votes made from this post onward will be counted

No "closing" deadline set yet

Only votes in this thread will be counted.

I've used the NetTally tool a few times, I think mostly on Spacebattles before they integrated the tally tool in the forum. It should indeed count the votes more or less the same way, though i imagine the latest version might have more options for advanced tallying methods (like ranked voting, though I think SV could do that too?)

I stick with my conspiracy theory:
Forge merges Sun in Splendor and Forge of Days into something absolutely alien to both of them:
Harmony.

But that is just my conspiracy theory, got no evidence that its true.


I could believe it, actually.

If they "merged", the new creation could not be eaten by their parents, so no risk of Alukite Hour.

And there's a relatively common trope in fiction that a "creation" of a god may start weaker BUT have the potential to surpass their creators.

In this case, Harmony started off weaker than the Hours, but it was shown to have powers and potential the Hours don't have. Namely its agents /The Alicorns) can kill minor worms with just their presence, and have powers in some ways beyond even Names, or at least comparable, if in fields that are outside the topical lore fields.

Forge is also all about making something new out of the old.

Dreamlands encroaching and replacing the normal Mansus sleep-realm. Harmony in place of Glory.

and then the Forge blocked the way to the Glory, so nobody might stop this new path... so that the old could not go back to replace the new.

For all we know Harmony is indirectly powered by the Glory too. we just don't know, not really. There could be some kind of backdoor through which Harmony can get power from the Glory... or maybe the Forge actually tried to create something, a seed powered by the two strongest hours, that could in time grow to SURPASS the Glory...

or, of course, we might be completely wrong. Even the Master seemed to believe that while Harmony welcomed the Outsider Alicorns it wasn't actually an Outsider force itself though...

[x] A disturbed guest

I'll go with this for now, but honestly I'm considering basically all options except Fair Trial.
 
Ideally, the Occult library would be a shared project between bureau and eclipse.
Bureau absolutely needs the knowledge. Lore armes agents against the Lore armed threats. Rituals.
Bureau has important skills for the library (Investigation, finding stuff).
Eclipse needs the knowledge (making Loretools, researching rituals, etc)
Eclipse has important skills for the library.
I am of the opinion that if the Bureau learns of the Lore's, Velvet dies. GM made it crystal clear we cannot fool Celestia. Once Celestia learns of the lore's she will notice that Velvet is super powerful in them, and then kill Velvet.

The Bureau learning of the lores is doom clock to a bad end.
 
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[X] A self-invited guest

We cannot play for what is nicest, we cannot play to not lose. We have to play to Win, because everyone else is as well. The sooner we gain The Glory the sooner we can make things better for everyone else. (Or at least, that's what Velvet will tell herself.)
 
[X] A self-invited guest

Glory shining attracts worms. Glory shining even brighter attracts more and bigger worms.

I don't think Glory can actually shine even brighter?

This statement seems pretty disingenuous.

Any arguments about Harmony attracting the Worms can also be made about the Glory attracting the Worms, except the the Glory's faction dropped the ball so hard Harmony was able to step up and try something different.

but also Harmony shining brighter KILLS more worms more easily.

The main difference between Harmony and Glory seems to be who has the power.

Anypony can draw on the lores to gain the power they grant while Harmony prefers to keep ponykind weak and under control of their minions.

But in the end does it really matter?

We're not going for the Harmony ending.

oh, ok, we're locked in Glory Ending.

I actually forgot that.
 
I agree with Fair Trial not being that interesting right now, and Celestia is kind of a mystery box. Though with Luna about to return I'm willing to ignore Celestia now as she'll get some focus soon anyway.
I was calling it a mystery box mostly because she gifted a jewel box, which was essentially mystery box on the gift, not because it's a complete mystery of the benefits. But also fair, Luna is end of turn or so, iirc for that vote. There was going to be more but someone else up there explained that already.
Anyways... I need to recall what I was going to vote for. I kind of want to see the results of seeing Ash's first... pawwork? I don't know what to call Midday's Wolfmare thing. And having Celestia maybe more... amicable towards things could help with her seeing Luna again, as opposed to things going bad quickly if she reacts with hostility or suspicion. And yes I know, the connection they share. But if Chrysalis somehow either forged a false one long enough to sucker-cocoon Celestia, or just caught her by surprise since the connection isn't that clear, or something. I'm not sure how much she'll believe this is actually Luna for real this time, Pinkie Promise. ...And now I want to see if we get a Baldomare drinking her way through the royal wine casks. Darn it.

[X] A Royal guest
[X] A self-invited guest
[X] A disturbed guest
 
I don't really have an issue with any of the options and A Self Invited Guest is my second choice, but we've walked the line between pragmatic and idealistic quite often. I look at the harmony choice more as a counter balance to the damage we've caused with the Wolf. While ultimately we need to reach Glory the tight rope Velvet's walked between the two is one of the most interesting parts of it all. Sometimes it's worked, sometimes it hasn't, but I think it's made it more compelling overall.
I'd rather go more optimistic this time, considering the hard choices we're going to have to make in the future.
 
I am of the opinion that if the Bureau learns of the Lore's, Velvet dies. GM made it crystal clear we cannot fool Celestia. Once Celestia learns of the lore's she will notice that Velvet is super powerful in them, and then kill Velvet.

The Bureau learning of the lores is doom clock to a bad end.
no? We need an excuse for how we know of the lores. If we learn from a raid, and let enough time pass to justify our knowledge, than it can work.

If we introduce them ourselves in a not-above-board way, THEN we're turbofucked.

The main difference between Harmony and Glory seems to be who has the power.

Anypony can draw on the lores to gain the power they grant while Harmony prefers to keep ponykind weak and under control of their minions.

But in the end does it really matter?

We're not going for the Harmony ending.
"anypony can draw on the lores" is a technical truth at best.

Wasn't it something like "1 lore at lvl 1 with a teacher, 1 lore at lvl 2 with talent OR drive, and lvl 3 if you have talent AND drive"?

Most people just... don't have enough of a talent/affinity for the lores to get much out of them.

Harmony, on the other hand, gives weaker BUT far more widespread powers (cutie marks) to EVERYPONY.

The fact there's a few "champions" (the alicorns) doesn't mean much. in CS you also have an equivalent, it's the Names, and would you look at that, Names and Hours are limited in numbers too. As are Longs I think.

I'd rather go more optimistic this time, considering the hard choices we're going to have to make in the future.
to be fair there's an argument to be made that killing the Master WAS a pretty altruistic decision.

then again... Midday Dew might disagree from his experience.
 
no? We need an excuse for how we know of the lores. If we learn from a raid, and let enough time pass to justify our knowledge, than it can work.

If we introduce them ourselves in a not-above-board way, THEN we're turbofucked.
They are making a reference to one of Birds comments in which they were counting the ammount of spinning plates Velvet would have to deal with and one of them was that Celestia, as somepony with inclination to Lantern, would grow more likely to find out the truth the deeper she went into it and how Velvet would have to find a way to balance introducing the lores to the alicorns with that.
 
to be fair there's an argument to be made that killing the Master WAS a pretty altruistic decision.

then again... Midday Dew might disagree from his experience.

I mean I argued pretty heavily to kill the Master and I stand by the decision, but calling it pretty altruistic is a bit of a stretch. Velvet was cornered with no good options. While yes, we did it to protect Cadence and I think the Master dying is a good thing, I also think it's wrong to think it was a selfless act. Velvet was afraid and wanted them dead. Also as with all Regrettable Actions, Velvet arguably came out ahead. Despite what was lost she destroyed a major opponent and made the Manse more difficult for her competition.
 
I mean I argued pretty heavily to kill the Master and I stand by the decision, but calling it pretty altruistic is a bit of a stretch. Velvet was cornered with no good options. While yes, we did it to protect Cadence and I think the Master dying is a good thing, I also think it's wrong to think it was a selfless act. Velvet was afraid and wanted them dead. Also as with all Regrettable Actions, Velvet arguably came out ahead. Despite what was lost she destroyed a major opponent and made the Manse more difficult for her competition.
well, it was arguably more selfless than the main alternative, the "allow the rape to happen and Master to be born in place of Flurry".

and Velvet sacrificing herself would have been just dumb for the most part. MAYBE selfless, but very stupid.
 
[X] A disturbed guest
[X] A Royal guest
[X] A host of guests

The fist one is my "pragmatic choice", the second is one that would be resonant with Cadence's fears of losing her loved ones, and the last is a chance for something thoroughly good to spread across Ponykind and to make up for the 3 Wolves by the Hours let's not make more.
 
Then again, every time we passed through a gate we gained power, and this would AT LEAST make us a Long. Maybe we actually need to find the Key to the Tricuspid after this, to open it in the reverse direction? That's how you ascend to Namehood in CS, so I could see the next step being having to basically do that, except with no Hours left we actually go from Long to Hour...
So here's the thing, we already know the requirements to become Long, Name and Hour. To become a Long one must pass through the Tricuspid Gate, there is no other requirements. To become a Name one must do a great deed and then physically enter into the Mansus, this is done by opening one of the Gates of the Mansus in the reverse via the use of the Keys. To become a Hour the method, presumably, is the same as becoming a Name.

Now the thing is due to Eternity the Hours enforce a certain number of Names and Longs, there is no natural limit. They also send hunter killers after you if you aren't in their service and still active in the world. So in the current condition becoming a Long means we can ascend to Name-hood via the Keys that Marinette probably knows the locations and almost definitely holds one off.

That is all assuming there is even a quest past getting through the Tricuspid Gate because Bird has repeatedly said Glory is the easiest ending and I don't know about you but throwing down with two of the strongest Hours or an Alukite Hour is not what I'd call easiest victory.
The fact there's a few "champions" (the alicorns) doesn't mean much. in CS you also have an equivalent, it's the Names, and would you look at that, Names and Hours are limited in numbers too. As are Longs I think.
As I said before, artificially limited.


I would like to reiterate, the Celestia option is kinda useless because Luna is coming back this turn, if we're assuming she's running on the Celestia's ire system as shown in Cadance quest then this is at most a reduction of 5 and Luna is going to be something like 40. Adding this on isn't going to help us hit any breakpoints. Also also, if this was going to cool Celestia off Birb would've mentioned that wouldn't he have?

As for Host of Guests, while it does help in Cadance's goals the text says her objective will be accomplished immediately not that it won't ever be accomplished if we don't choose it, you're trading time and narrative benefit of uncertain use for clear cut mechanical and narrative benefits.

We've had this whole thing before. People, including me, voted to do Rarity doing Cadance's dressing which, again provided nothing beyond uncertain narrative benefits (if even those) and feel good stuff, for both certain and uncertain benefits (some of which like the Names would've been so very useful with hindsight). In my eyes choosing either Celestia or the Guests is doing the same.

We have to work towards winning, the longer we put off the certain victory the more chances we have to fuck up, the more chances bullshit like the Master has to happen.

Also, the argument that finding out Discord is in the capital and might be beyond us for now and so we shouldn't choose that option is, in my eyes, stupid. As I've said before, if we put off finding out what the requirements for winning are and go building up before checking we may find we could've ended things ages ago. Plus, finding an Outsider is going to take a Baldomare AP, in hot demand, and she may tell us it's Discord anyways and then what?
 
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no? We need an excuse for how we know of the lores. If we learn from a raid, and let enough time pass to justify our knowledge, than it can work.

If we introduce them ourselves in a not-above-board way, THEN we're turbofucked
I think you need to recheck how many lores Velvet has at high level, is Branded etc. And it been made impossible to fake having lore knowledge prior on because we chose to never share it prior. The only logical reason for Velvet to have the extreme level of lore knowledge, and don't mistake it for anything else, most people need decades to do what Velvet did in about year. And on top of that never coming forward with it prior, means Velvet is complicit in enemy action.

And Velvet is not in charge of research and magical development, her suddenly jumping froward decades overnight when she has zero reason to be doing that anyway. Especially in anything less then at least a year is an bleeding clear clue the blind could see.
 
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well, it was arguably more selfless than the main alternative, the "allow the rape to happen and Master to be born in place of Flurry".

and Velvet sacrificing herself would have been just dumb for the most part. MAYBE selfless, but very stupid.

Arguably killing Shining to stop the Master was more altruistic. I mean you can make the argument that the fact we could call on the Wolf at all prevents it from being selfless by its very nature. We did it for a good reason, but it came from selfish place where Velvet wanted the Master to die.

As to the vote itself, I think the Narrative weight of a host of guests is potentially more useful then people give in credit for in context of the Regrettable Action that allowed the Wedding to happen in the first place. I understand it's more potential than tangible though. I mean realistically, any of the other votes about dealing with the Master except give them what they wanted would have put us in a much worse place as far as reaching Glory. I don't know that this will be the vote that bites us the worst.
 
I think you need to recheck how many lores Velvet has at high level, is Branded etc. And it been made impossible to fake having lore knowledge prior on because we chose to never share it prior. The only logical reason for Velvet to have the extreme level of lore knowledge, and don't mistake it for anything else, most people need decades to do what Velvet did in about year. And on top of that never coming forward with it prior, means Velvet is complicit in enemy action.

And Velvet is not in charge of research and magical development, her suddenly jumping froward decades overnight when she has zero reason to be doing that anyway. Especially in anything less then at least a year is an bleeding clear clue the blind could see.
I mean, given her insane level of competence for the... Legendary Luna Lookabout (TM, subject to change upon me figuring out a better triple letter acronym seeing as it basically replaced the GGG), this isn't exactly out of the question for her. Like, anyone looking into her gets "Okay, minor noble, sent to a rural town for farmland bookkeeping.", and then they compare it to "Hypercompetent Mare who basically overhauled the entire search over all of Equestria twice or thrice over."... yeah I think that's a level of hyperintelligence/competence that could be easily shrugged off as just Velvet things.
 
[X] A Royal guest
[X] A host of guests

I want to make up at least a little for the repeated widespread mental and physical traumas we have inflicted on Equestria. I also want to poke Harmony with a metaphorical stick to learn about it because the lore of this crossover fascinates me, and things are easier to poke when they are flourishing.

Meanwhile Baldomare just tells me things I already know. I'd rather mollify the Sun that apparently hands out cool treasures like candy if you don't turn them down orrrrrr see what happens if we pick a widespread positive option. We've already seen widespread negatives 3 or 4 times in the form of Evil, the Canterlot Massacre, Paranoia, and Ash. (Evil and the Canterlot Massacre could arguably count as the same negative if you subscribe that such was an option only because of Evil's existence, hence the three or four.) We have yet to see a single instance of an Equestria-wide positive event. Not one! And I want to change that.
 

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