Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

Alan975 · 2025-02-25T04:42:34+0000

Shaper47 said:
Also to have Velvet and Selene talk about the Wolf Sacrament and leave the choice in Selene's hooves.

Absolutely not!
We should not do that, Velvet should not do that.

Especially because there's far too high of a chance that Selene would do it, perhaps not this second but if something unexpected popped up at the wrong time...

That is not the kind of choice that a good mother lets their charge make, for their own good.

Let us bear those regrets so that no one else has to.

Venerable Ro · 2025-02-25T04:58:33+0000

spiderhellian said:
And ultimately… trying to help purple pony (with no guarantee it would) is not our chief objective right now. Not even close. We have a handful of turns remaining, it is not something we should be committing to effort for, let alone mildly unreasonable effort. But okay, I can buy that you disagree.

Funnily enough, I suspect we're ultimately in agreement and accidentally talking past each other. Goodness knows I'm prone to that...

To clarify, where are you trying to go at this particular moment, narratively speaking?

The Unaligned Player · 2025-02-25T05:19:26+0000

Shaper47 said:
That's the story I want to create, a story of victory and love.

Mate, if I'm gonna be real? The way you've portrayed yourself is as someone trying to get other questers to willingly destroy any chance of an even slightly happy ending, and not even being coy about it. So this statement is kinda unbelievable. It could be completely true, but I just don't see it.

poyac · 2025-02-25T05:22:12+0000

The Unaligned Player said:
Mate, if I'm gonna be real? The way you've portrayed yourself is as someone trying to get other questers to willingly destroy any chance of an even slightly happy ending, and not even being coy about it. So this statement is kinda unbelievable. It could be completely true, but I just don't see it.

Er it's more like a nice sounding, but also vague attitude / mindset which allows other questers to destroy it even though we all have more or less good intentions, and want to do what is "right". Rather than intentionally goading questers to destroy this story. There does need to be firm consensus on how to approach some things. On some quests I have seen that.

des-pair-2 · 2025-02-25T05:34:04+0000

I hope we can just tell mirror!Twilight that it is possible to bring her with us, but preparations would have to be made on the other side first.

Shaper47 said:
That's the story I want to create, a story of victory and love.

I don't know what is worse: that you are lying, or that you are telling the truth.

Either way, it would be a victory only in its technicality, and the love would be rotten to its very core. That is not the story I wish to read.

Shaper47 · 2025-02-25T06:32:21+0000

dcoconeo said:
Um, considering that we didn't talk about the Regrettable Actions at a time where it would've been narratively best to do so, I don't think we have any reasonable segue into this option? (And I don't think she will be a meaningful sounding board for such matters since she trusts that our actions will be helpful/necessary anyway)

Offering her a Wolf Sacrament is a reasonable segue.

We can be vague about what an RA means but putting the choice in Selene's hooves is a matter of trust.

des-pair-2 said:
Either way, it would be a victory only in its technicality, and the love would be rotten to its very core. That is not the story I wish to read.

The Unaligned Player said:
Mate, if I'm gonna be real? The way you've portrayed yourself is as someone trying to get other questers to willingly destroy any chance of an even slightly happy ending, and not even being coy about it. So this statement is kinda unbelievable. It could be completely true, but I just don't see it.

Hey, I'm not the bunch that wants to hand everything in the world over to the equivalent of Cenobites for endless torture.

That's you guys.

dcoconeo · 2025-02-25T06:56:59+0000

Shaper47 said:
Hey, I'm not the bunch that wants to hand everything in the world over to the equivalent of Cenobites for endless torture.

I think that we still have leeway, but it is rapidly shrinking and will be easier if we do not actively risk shrinking it now.
Part of the thread probably thinks we have more than enough leeway, but I assume you think we have a negative amount of it left?

Talon Tiger Dino · 2025-02-25T07:03:01+0000

Shaper47 said:
Heart 4 only requires reading one level 4 book with an Influence.

And heart 4 gives a reroll and is pretty much need for the depths of the church expedition.

Sadly normal book searches top out at Level 3, so Twilight can't even get the book you want. If you want cheap cover your bases AP, just embrace glorious Necromancy. Or Summon things! The MitLs have been waiting for aaaaaages, and come out superior to ponies from the get-go, let alone a human-turned-pony who still needs to figure out how being quadrupedal works. They need no training in Lores or living, and so are vastly more efficient.

Shaper47 said:
Offering her a Wolf Sacrament is a reasonable segue.

We can be vague about what an RA means but putting the choice in Selene's hooves is a matter of trust.

Hey, I'm not the bunch that wants to hand everything in the world over to the equivalent of Cenobites for endless torture.

That's you guys.

The Wolf is not the only way to deal with the Worms, and never has been. That you keep portraying it that way is disingenuous.

Greymere · 2025-02-25T07:03:33+0000

dcoconeo said:
I think that we still have leeway, but it is rapidly shrinking and will be easier if we do not actively risk shrinking it now.
Part of the thread probably thinks we have more than enough leeway, but I assume you think we have a negative amount of it left?

He's, for some reason, entirely convinced himself that Harmony is actually totally the Super Evil Big Bad who deliberately wants to lure the Worms in and have them destroy the world. Despite it making no sense.

Shaper47 · 2025-02-25T07:04:56+0000

dcoconeo said:
I think that we still have leeway, but it is rapidly shrinking and will be easier if we do not actively risk shrinking it now.
Part of the thread probably thinks we have more than enough leeway, but I assume you think we have a negative amount of it left?

I think we have an unknown amount of leeway both IC and OOC.

Which means actions taken with this knowledge have character defining meaning. Risking her loved ones to endless torture porn for self moral reasons are not actions that endorse Velvet as a pony? that cares about her loved ones.

Personally OOC I think we've done some stuff that grants us additional leeway and some stuff that grants us negative leeway. If we pick the right choices we have enough time, pick the wrong choices and things can get really really bad.

poyac · 2025-02-25T07:07:16+0000

Greymere said:
He's, for some reason, entirely convinced himself that Harmony is actually totally the Super Evil Big Bad who deliberately wants to lure the Worms in and have them destroy the world. Despite it making no sense.

The Master claims to thinks that, afaik. But... Let's say a good, peaceful world with Harmony attracts the worms. Fine. But a devastated world with traumatized and divided people would fall just as easily in its own ways to the worms. If worms are gonna come anyway you might as well make the world an enjoyable place to live. With actual dream protections -- not just by Luna but perhaps reformed cultists. This is just my wild thoughts.

Do we have evidence or other reasoning that shows the worms are coming in faster because of harmony? Or that they're always gonna try to crawl in. @Shaper47

Steady Gaze · 2025-02-25T07:16:23+0000

I think Mirror Twilight would slightly understand if we explained that it isn't actually possible to bring her back because we think it would destroy somepony else. That would be a good way to attempt to slightly diffuse her consequent unhealthy fascination at not being able to experience the world of magic that we've helped stir up. @OurLadyOfWires do you think Velvet would have the presence of mind to do that? Or would she just leave without a trace, shattering Mirror Twilight's hopes?

The one thing that gives me pause is:

OurLadyOfWires said:
Third, Velvet Covers is an unreliable narrator, and this world is already strange to begin with. I invite you all to consider if this update is brushing over certain topics or implications, or not.

So do most people think it's that Velvet is too optimistic about the outcomes if we bring Twilight back?

Nevermort said:
Personally I feel that we overcome Velvet self imposed Twilight ban after that narrow vote were we decided to talk with human Twilight.

…that would be nice. But the QM has given no indication that will happen. The QM is (usually) very "the option does what it says", so I feel like there would've been a note at the end of the last update noting the change in status after we talked to human Twilight twice.

Pittauro said:
there ARE plenty chances for her to recover

They seemed rather marginal (probability-wise) to me, but what do I know? If we cared enough to have spared a follower action, we could have had Rarity or Fluttershy actually check on Twilight so we can confirm any assumptions we are making that she is improving (we still can, actually) and that she isn't still a shut-in. (Remember how she "received" the wedding invitation.) Sidenote @OurLadyOfWires it might be nice to explicitly ask Cadance about how Twilight is doing when we have the opportunity, given the players' and Velvet's interest in her. I know we got a brief note in Cadance's dream that she failed to "save Twilight", but Velvet doesn't know that.

OurLadyOfWires said:
The same way it wasn't your fault that the pony you claim to love the most lost his horn? The same way it wasn't your fault when you failed to save Twilight?!

I kind of assume this means her therapy/love magic failed, but I guess you could take it to mean her cult kidnapping—not sure if you intended that ambiguity or want to clarify that as well?

I mean, I don't disagree that the chance of her getting better is greater than zero; people's arguments can be summed up as "never kill yourself". And obviously, I think that's valid. This switcheroo isn't killing her, or automatically causing her to go insane (as long as one vaguely knows what even happened, like we or Twilight in first the EqG movie did, or if this happened to you or me), though I do acknowledge she may end up feeling screwed, assuming she isn't still too clinically depressed to care and she makes the connection to blame us.

Detractors don't seem to be giving much weight to how positive it might be for mirror Twilight, who actually has ambitions for her life now, but I guess people are not weighing it more than the negative utility of screwing our Twilight, so fine. I just hope people aren't discounting it in their considerations.

It's probably too late to do such coordination, but I would actually potentially consider leaving, with or without Twilight, rather than staying. For sure I think we should leave after the next update, since we don't have time to do any proper paths that may present themselves.

Calico J · 2025-02-25T07:22:45+0000

[X] Apparently, they are not alicorns here. But they are still the highest authority. (Approach the Principals)
[X] Now that you can reach the city center, it is time to explore even beyond that. Map the roads, learn the rules, and seek the very end of this dream.
[X] This place has a library. Go take a look.

Shaper47 · 2025-02-25T07:23:14+0000

Talon Tiger Dino said:
Sadly normal book searches top out at Level 3, so Twilight can't even get the book you want. If you want cheap cover your bases AP, just embrace glorious Necromancy. Or Summon things!

With Selene around it's easy to get the materials so more Necromancy would be great.

I was kinda hoping Mirror Twilight would be SH focused but even level 3 heart books are good. Only requires 2 Velvet AP and an Influence for heart 5 scrapwise if we have the books.

Talon Tiger Dino said:
The Wolf is not the only way to deal with the Worms, and never has been. That you keep portraying it that way is disingenuous.

Not the only way but whenever I've suggested checking out the Wards nobody here has been interested.

It's disingenuous to forget that.

Talon Tiger Dino said:
The MitLs have been waiting for aaaaaages, and come out superior to ponies from the get-go, let alone a human-turned-pony who still needs to figure out how being quadrupedal works. They need no training in Lores or living, and so are vastly more efficient.

I actually pretty annoyed at this because we kinda need bits to do a bunch of summoning.

So maybe people here should stop with the insistance of making us poor. So many bits lost.

Like, maybe if we took the thousand bits like I suggested things would be different.

Greymere said:
He's, for some reason, entirely convinced himself that Harmony is actually totally the Super Evil Big Bad who deliberately wants to lure the Worms in and have them destroy the world. Despite it making no sense.

Unknown intentions are irrelevant compared to the results of actions.

poyac said:
Do we have evidence or other reasoning that shows the worms are coming in faster because of harmony? Or that they're always gonna try to crawl in. @Shaper47

That mess with Luna, the Master's knowledge, the fact we have Baldomare enlightment.

Greymere · 2025-02-25T07:33:51+0000

poyac said:
The Master claims to thinks that, afaik. But... Let's say a good, peaceful world with Harmony attracts the worms. Fine. But a devastated world with traumatized and divided people would fall just as easily in its own ways to the worms. If worms are gonna come anyway you might as well make the world an enjoyable place to live. With actual dream protections -- not just by Luna but perhaps reformed cultists. This is just my wild thoughts.

Do we have evidence or other reasoning that shows the worms are coming in faster because of harmony? Or that they're always gonna try to crawl in. @Shaper47

You misunderstand, a bit. The thing in contention is not that Harmony's light attracts Worms. We know it does, because it's the brightest thing in Nowhere, and finding out how to get around that seems to be the premise of the Harmony victory path. The thing that Shaper believes is that it is doing it on purpose with the express intent of destroying the world, and therefore anything Harmonious = Evil and Bad.

Despite, y'know, it's light literally being so anathema to the Worms that the alicorns just straight up vaporize lesser Worms and the Elements of Harmony being able to contain and purify a Worm-infested Luna.

Steady Gaze · 2025-02-25T07:34:12+0000

I guess one regret I will have is that we apparently won't have an opportunity to meet Sunset Shimmer. Which option would make us most likely to meet her?

Talon Tiger Dino · 2025-02-25T07:52:29+0000

Steady Gaze said:
I know we got a brief note in Cadance's dream that she failed to "save Twilight", but Velvet doesn't know that.

I kind of assume this means her therapy/love magic failed, but I guess you could take it to mean her cult kidnapping—not sure if you intended that ambiguity or want to clarify that as well?

I kind of assumed that Cadance's dream of self-hatred is an unreliable narrator on a lot of stuff.

Shaper47 said:
I was kinda hoping Mirror Twilight would be SH focused but even level 3 heart books are good. Only requires 2 Velvet AP and an Influence for heart 5 scrapwise if we have the books.

Even if she is SH focused she needs to be trained in it first. Also, how do Level 3 books lead to Heart 5? I thought they stop doing anything for us once we pass their level.

Shaper47 · 2025-02-25T07:59:25+0000

Greymere said:
The thing that Shaper believes is that it is doing it on purpose with the express intent of destroying the world, and therefore anything Harmonious = Evil and Bad.

That's my old opinion.

After receiving more information I believe it's more if a gamble type deal.

Sure the world might be destroyed but for Harmony to get their overwhelming victory their willing to risk it.

Talon Tiger Dino said:
Even if she is SH focused she needs to be trained in it first. Also, how do Level 3 books lead to Heart 5? I thought they stop doing anything for us once we pass their level.

Get 4 level 3 books from confident book searching. Get 2 level 4 books from book searching.

Spend one action reading 3 level 3 books. (Heart 3 3/4)

Spend one action reading 1 level 3 book and 2 level 4 books. (Heart 4 2/4)

Get a level 4 heart influence. (Heart 4 4/4)

Get Sacrament. (Heart 5)

So basically the level 3 heart books get us to heart 4.

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