Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Nevermort]

And if you're saying "Ah, we'll chaperone, so it'll be find — that just seems like befriending her with extra steps and fewer benefits and less influence. Or do you think Cadance will be able to befriend her for less costs, moral or otherwise? If so, why?

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Well as one example Cadance have both Grail and Heart. So if getting Heart Sacrament is corruption free option to befriend Mareinette, then Cadance would be able to do it easier than Velvet,

 

[spiderhellian]

Well as one example Cadance have both Grail and Heart. So if getting Heart Sacrament is corruption free option to befriend Mareinette, then Cadance would be able to do it easier than Velvet,

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Yeah, this seems wild:

• The Heart Sacrament being non-corrupting. I'm sorry, this is a monster we're dealing with here, we do not get to have things so easily. But if you disagree...
• Gambling on Cadance getting Level 4 in lores, when she's Level 0 now, I don't think leveling her up will be as difficult as Luna was, but I don't think we'll get there in a few turns either.

I can't say any of this is impossible. I'm not the QM.

But I do think it is unlikely, and not a solid foundation to base a gamble on!

 

[Arrkhon]

Or do you think Cadance will be able to befriend her for less costs, moral or otherwise? If so, why?

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She enjoys finer things in life, unlike Velvet, she's nice and polite pony, unlike Velvet, she's an alicorn, unlike Velvet, she also could teach Mareinnette about Love, unlike Velvet
I also believe that the overlap in their lores will allow for them to develop mentoring relationship, as long as someone teaches her some Winter to counterbalance it

 

[Alan975]

What oh what is this all saying, one moment as I adjust my glasses ...

Not to mention all the ways we can if not help Cadance fully resist then extend things as much as possible.

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Aha, we seem to be at an impasse.

I'm not talking game terms, and going by this then I'll likely be voting counter to whatever you do.

Cadence has landed in the position of just-behind-family in Velvets priorities as far as I'm concerned, just below Rarity.

Honestly, treating her like a resource. The only options are to dine or to kill a monster.

 

[Rafuki22]

Velvet has been "keeping tabs" on Mareinette, and she still got into Velvets head!

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That means that we need the Winter Sacrament then.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

I'm not sure a Winter Sacrament would be enough. Mareinette is a Name who is fully, rather than partially, in the Wake, after all.

Look, for me this has become a simple question: what is worse, an Alukite-Influenced Alicorn, or an Alukite-Influenced Hour?

The answer is the Hour, because they get to dictate Histories and fundamental underpinnings of reality. So leave her to Cadance, I say, because we are highly unlikely to kill her. Especially since Velvet isn't allowed to think poorly of Mareinette in the first place.

 

[Rafuki22]

I'm not sure a Winter Sacrament would be enough. Mareinette is a Name who is fully, rather than partially, in the Wake, after all.

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True, but it would help wouldn't it?

Especially since Velvet isn't allowed to think poorly of Mareinette in the first place.

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Making assumptions there.

 

[Alan975]

>: (

Tiger, what?

Am I lost? Why are so many of you up for leaving Cadnace on the chopping block? I thought that she was generally adored.

Win the game and all that sure, but do remember that our choices influence Velvets mentality.
Our lady has left out options that are "out of character" before.

And most importantly think of the narrative! The evver after!
Sure, an Alukite influenced Hour would be bad -although I've not seen you argue against being influenced by other Names that would watch the world burn- but you know what kind of Hour would be bad?

One that sacrifices incredibly valuable, utterly devoted and clearly beloved minions just to not have to deal with the problems that they created!

At that point, Velvet might as well shed all emotional attachment to the idea of Family.

At that point she might as well not have any reason not to be an Alukite, when she could cast aside one loved ones life for the support of a Name, and later on the sacrifice of that Name would give something else and so on.


@Shaper47 I need your expert opinion, how many turns would we need for full Wolf stain? Cuz that is more appealing than letting people rip the essence of what makes Velvet apart.

 

[ses]

Entirely too much doomsaying about "corruption" abounding on both sides.

Baldomare considers Mareinette to be a friend. Baldomare almost certainly took Mareinette's Grail sacrament when she was a mortal aspirant. Baldomare does not seem to have carried over any sort of "alukite taint" into her ascent to being an immortal.

Cadance has "shared interests" with Mareinette. Shared interests is in present tense, not future tense. Mareinette can befriend Cadance. It will be more complicated than just "Cadance purifies Mareinette with the power of love!" AND IT WILL ALSO be more complicated than "Mareinette mind controls Cadance into munching on all the babies and corrupts her!"

 

[Alan975]

Entirely too much doomsaying about "corruption" abounding on both sides.

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Oh absolutely, but can't exactly not mention it when that seems to be the most pressing concern.
I mostly just think like, "Oh, so that's what you think would happen to Velvet, and you're okay with risking Cadance?"

And talking about the possibility of Harmoniously purifying Mareinette feels too much like the copium that made a lot of people ignore risks because they "knew the solution"

 

[Zxzx24]

"Mareinette said she will take care of your chores today," you say, giving her a confident smile.

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Oh my it has been a while since I laughed out loud at this story thank you!

Ok, looking at the moods thing, why are we/have we not bothering trying to actually friendship The Fair Lady? Like, reciprocating her friendship? I get the whole "you should be eating people" thing, but compared to what we've done it really isn't that big of a deal? I honestly feel we should invest more in her, and that this vote was a good first step to doing that.

And if we decide to send The Lady to be with Cadance more, well, might I point to the fact that in CS canon the Ligeians set up a "charity" to help with "burying" the dead? They don't exactly have the grandest of ambitions when it comes to their tastes.

I honestly feel we may be a little too scared of The Lady, and that we need to get over ourselves a bit.

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I mean we just introduced her to one of our closest friends?

We can certainly spend some more time speaking with her. But- we have been decently friendly towards her.

 

[ses]

Off topic but Battle of the Bands showed up in my youtube recs and man it's hilarious thinking of the Sirens as Grail/Edge creatures of the Wandering Flames. The lyrics fit the Wolf ending of the Exile so well! My mouth is watering already.

Although maybe that's too tunnel visioned. The Lionsmith might be getting shortchanged, after all "It doesn't matter who you hurt as long as you're proving you're the best" is PURE Lionsmith. Honestly I'm leaning more and more Lionsmith. "We dont have to be one and the same thing" is very very very Lionsmith.

 

[Alan975]

We can certainly spend some more time speaking with her. But- we have been decently friendly towards her.

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Going by narative, sure. Only "negative" thing so far is that the new Mood could be interpreted as Mareinette being/starting to get impatient/disappointed in Velvet.

But if we go the idea that Mareinette has some amount of insight into the discussion -as in, how closely QM decides to link Velvets inner turmoil/desire to the discussion /the closeness of the votes-
Well, then I'd imagine that she has started to grow tired of our "lack of understanding" or our "shunning of her ways" or even just how we have been following the law of hospitality rather than the spirit of it.
Despite the fact the she has been oh so courteous as to not even nibble on anyone... that we would mind.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

True, but it would help wouldn't it?

Making assumptions there.

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Ahem:
"Mareinette is now Cadance's friend, and she can do no wrong."
- Velvet's Mind, last update

>: (

Tiger, what?

Am I lost? Why are so many of you up for leaving Cadnace on the chopping block? I thought that she was generally adored.

Win the game and all that sure, but do remember that our choices influence Velvets mentality.
Our lady has left out options that are "out of character" before.

And most importantly think of the narrative! The evver after!
Sure, an Alukite influenced Hour would be bad -although I've not seen you argue against being influenced by other Names that would watch the world burn- but you know what kind of Hour would be bad?

One that sacrifices incredibly valuable, utterly devoted and clearly beloved minions just to not have to deal with the problems that they created!

At that point, Velvet might as well shed all emotional attachment to the idea of Family.

At that point she might as well not have any reason not to be an Alukite, when she could cast aside one loved ones life for the support of a Name, and later on the sacrifice of that Name would give something else and so on.


@Shaper47 I need your expert opinion, how many turns would we need for full Wolf stain? Cuz that is more appealing than letting people rip the essence of what makes Velvet apart.

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I have argued against Wolf Influence ever since we destroyed the Door, I am very much against such influences, thank you very much. The only other Names to argue against are Baldomare, who actually kind of likes how the world is right now and who has left her sketchy acts behind long ago, and Biedde, who even though he is a shifty shit, isn't trying to get Velvet to commit acts of cannibalism. Plus he's been guarding the Worm Museum for who-knows-how-long, he gets a little slack for doing his part in ensuring no apocalypses trigger.

He's terrible, just not Alukite terrible. Much like Alukite terrible is still less than Worm terrible.

As for what such a vote says about Velvet, she wouldn't consider this sacrificing a friend, she would consider it letting a friendship occur.

Finally risking a corrupt Alicorn is a lot safer than guaranteeing a corrupt Hour. Unless we assume Velvet won't go for Glory, somehow.

 

[Alan975]

Unless I'm misremembering, but we are housing her in a separate building still, right?

A cell-ar, barring her -as I believe an omake pointed out a while ago- from the main house, left to watch as the other Guests get to come and go as they please -even the oh so rude DoA!-

A polite fiction of Hospitality, and by that I mean that she has been incredibly polite by humoring that fiction.
Because correct me if I'm wrong, but she isn't Fae.
There is no list of Grail rules that she is bound to follow, are there?

No, it is all tied into her amusement of something so small standing its ground, of the emotion that she gets to taste as Velvet does so.
And the eventual acquisition of a Friend, so that Mareinette can finally share in the savoring of delights.

And even one day be treated the same, because a meal does taste so much better when it's made by someone else, does it not?


And now back to this.

I have argued against Wolf Influence ever since we destroyed the Door, I am very much against such influences, thank you very much.

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Do you mean that in the sense of potential Hour Velvet being influenced? Or my call for aid?
If the former, ya not our best play -even though I was not here for that- but if the latter?

Ya no, if the narrative can be ignored in favor of winning as many seem to think, then Mother of Wolves is absolutely acceptable.



I'd say that the other names -Besides sweat DoA!- are worse actually.

Mareinette IS an Alukite, she sees no wrong with what she does.
It could be argued that Biddie is not worse -disregard the fact that he was a thug and is a cop "just following orders"- but Baldomare is the furthest from ignorant.

As for what such a vote says about Velvet, she wouldn't consider this sacrificing a friend, she would consider it letting a friendship occur.

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Nononono, don't pull "what Velvet would think".
That is already obvious, that is why I was giddy with this vote because if the MAIN CHARACTER made that choice then obviously people would not continue to trample this ground of "but, but big monster!? go away, no see you! you no problem!".

People are saying that Mareinette would corrupt Velvet.

The one that is prepared.

The one that knew -sort of, maybe- what she was getting into.

Point is that voters think [Mareinette = corruption] and they also say [Mareinette-> Canterlot/Cadance = Solution].
So either they think that Cadance will Harmony[Verb] Mareinette into not our problem, or they are spending Cadance like a get-out-of-jail card so that they don't have lay with Mar- in the bed they've made.
Sure, maybe Cadance can pull the clutch, doubt it though.
As for the second, I'll see you in the polls.

Finally risking a corrupt Alicorn is a lot safer than guaranteeing a corrupt Hour. Unless we assume Velvet won't go for Glory, somehow.

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Still no confirmation that getting to Glory = Hour-hood though?
But if so then sure, thats worse than a corupted Alicorn.
See previous argument of ripping up Velvets characterisation.

 

[Greymere]

Nononono, don't pull "what Velvet would think".
That is already obvious, that is why I was giddy with this vote because if the MAIN CHARACTER made that choice then obviously people would not continue to trample this ground of "but, but big monster!? go away, no see you! you no problem!".

People are saying that Mareinette would corrupt Velvet.

The one that is prepared.

The one that knew -sort of, maybe- what she was getting into.

Point is that voters think [Mareinette = corruption] and they also say [Mareinette-> Canterlot/Cadance = Solution].
So either they think that Cadance will Harmony[Verb] Mareinette into not our problem, or they are spending Cadance like a get-out-of-jail card so that they don't have lay with Mar- in the bed they've made.
Sure, maybe Cadance can pull the clutch, doubt it though.
As for the second, I'll see you in the polls.

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People believe that, specifically, taking Mareinette's (Grail) Sacrament will corrupt Velvet. Not just "existing and interacting with Mareinette".

Edit: And to be clear, at least speaking for myself, "corrupt" is a bit of a strong word. It's not (quite) like the Stains. But irreversibly carving part of our soul in the image of a child-eating monster isn't something I want Velvet to do.

 

[ses]

The degree to which just a Grail Sacrament is "corrupting" is uh... a few orders of magnitude less than a Stain? If staining our soul means that we're doomed to the horrible evil corrupt epilogue.... that ship is in goddamn Valinor already. Seriously people have a sense of proportion about the whole thing. It's one Sacrament in a non-primary lore out of over half a dozen we're likely to get by All In. We had this exact conversation about the Realizations back when each realization was new and scary and the thread thought that only the most careful minmaxing would prevent Velvet from turning irreversibly into a Poor Lunatic ending from the slightest misstep in reaching realizations, and a Sacrament is a lot closer to a Realization than a Stain. Not that sacraments aren't a bigger deal than a realization, but in comparison to a Stain, it's much closer to the former than the latter. Our best option on that front is do our best to not do another RA and cross the 50% threshold and hope the Stains just fall off with no fuss upon ascending. Grail Sacrament is pretty irrelevant in comparison.

(Speaking of which, you know what'd be great for not ending up with a 4th RA? Not making an enemy out of a Name!)

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

The degree to which just a Grail Sacrament is "corrupting" is uh... a few orders of magnitude less than a Stain? If staining our soul means that we're doomed to the horrible evil corrupt epilogue.... that ship is in goddamn Valinor already. Seriously people have a sense of proportion about the whole thing. It's one Sacrament in a non-primary lore out of over half a dozen we're likely to get by All In. We had this exact conversation about the Realizations back when each realization was new and scary and the thread thought that only the most careful minmaxing would prevent Velvet from turning irreversibly into a Poor Lunatic ending from the slightest misstep in reaching realizations, and a Sacrament is a lot closer to a Realization than a Stain. Not that sacraments aren't a bigger deal than a realization, but in comparison to a Stain, it's much closer to the former than the latter. Our best option on that front is do our best to not do another RA and cross the 50% threshold and hope the Stains just fall off with no fuss upon ascending. Grail Sacrament is pretty irrelevant in comparison.

(Speaking of which, you know what'd be great for not ending up with a 4th RA? Not making an enemy out of a Name!)

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See, the thing is that being corrupted is not a reason to pile on more forms of corruption. I don't want Velvet to become a being that finds eating other ponies acceptable on top of the other abhorrent things she has done. This isn't a binary deal, it's a sliding scale. And so we should just let her be friendly with Cadance. Buys us time, lets Velvet not eat people and, once Velvet becomes an Hour or otherwise able to see through Mareinette's shit, she can finally realize that there are things seriously wrong with Mareinette and be able to act upon it.

Otherwise she's just accepting that eating ponies because they are delicious and good raw materials is okay.

Additionally, the Stains are... odd, compared to Sacraments. They are far more autonomous, and are not entirely of Velvet, and she doesn't really know what will exactly spawn when she calls upon the Wolf-Divided, whereas a Sacrament is all Velvet with the exact costs clearly laid out.

To put it another way, the first Stain brought about Evil, but Velvet does not approve of evil. She still sees it as a terrible thing, a cost imposed by an outside force. Taking the Grail Sacrament makes for a Velvet that does approve of cannibalism for friendship and profit. Not as an emergency measure, not some desperate plea to a cruel god who decides the cost, just a deliberate and clear choice to murder and eat someone for an enjoyable dinner with a friend.

 

[Shaper47]

@Shaper47 I need your expert opinion, how many turns would we need for full Wolf stain? Cuz that is more appealing than letting people rip the essence of what makes Velvet apart.

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One, I even made a few best plans going for it in the past. Kinda a Pandora's box plan.

But on the topic of stains and the various corruptive sources. The Stains don't so much as add something new to Velvet but rather bring out what was there all along.

Hate and love are two sides of the same coin. Taking the Stains won't lessen Velvet's love if anything it makes her love a bigger part of her.

Her great wealth, her political influence, Imaculate manners, moral self righteousness (i.e. ability to say she a good pony), all the pursuits and points of pride she has devoted so much of her time attention to over the long long years of her life. These are things that Velvet values, these are things that will be lower in her priorities if she gets more Stains. Because the part of her that values love (that hates what would take that love away) would make up more of her.

For the Stains it's a story about love, and it will end in love.

It's the rest of the world that pays the cost for that love.

 

[Sveta08]

...
Gegh.

... I hate talking about the stains.


I want to be my usual flowery fun excitable attempt at a wordsmith. But I don't get to with this.
I don't get to go into the fun detail of the symbolic nature of stains and being marred and wounds and agonies. About the persistence that isn't quite heart and pain that isn't quite edge. Sensation that's not grail.
I can't talk about the fun things that they represent in the story, or how they help show the twisted binding nature between Manus and Wake. No examples get to be used.


But I hate talking about them. And it has nothing to do with the stains.
At least the ones on the character sheet.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

One, I even made a few best plans going for it in the past. Kinda a Pandora's box plan.

But on the topic of stains and the various corruptive sources. The Stains don't so much as add something new to Velvet but rather bring out what was there all along.

Hate and love are two sides of the same coin. Taking the Stains won't lessen Velvet's love if anything it makes her love a bigger part of her.

Her great wealth, her political influence, Imaculate manners, moral self righteousness (i.e. ability to say she a good pony), all the pursuits and points of pride she has devoted so much of her time attention to over the long long years of her life. These are things that Velvet values, these are things that will be lower in her priorities if she gets more Stains. Because the part of her that values love (that hates what would take that love away) would make up more of her.

For the Stains it's a story about love, and it will end in love.

It's the rest of the world that pays the cost for that love.

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So what part of Velvet's love does Evil represent, that it had to be fended off from Velvet's family's dreams by Selene when she was but a filly?

 

[Nevermort]

Yeah, this seems wild:
The Heart Sacrament being non-corrupting. I'm sorry, this is a monster we're dealing with here, we do not get to have things so easily. But if you disagree...
Gambling on Cadance getting Level 4 in lores, when she's Level 0 now, I don't think leveling her up will be as difficult as Luna was, but I don't think we'll get there in a few turns either.
I can't say any of this is impossible. I'm not the QM.

But I do think it is unlikely, and not a solid foundation to base a gamble on!

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It is not my idea that Heart Sacrament maybe non-corrupting. People wanted Velvet to reach lvl 4 in Heart lore to check since long ago. I am just pointing out that Cadance in kind of better position to do it. Luna shows us that grown up Alicorns can clear whole level in one action as we done with lvl 4 for Luna.

And perhaps even more importanly I kind of expect Mareinette to teach her Lores too. It is not necessary good thing overall but Cadance got to lvl 0 with just one interaction. And on Velvet example we can see that Mareinette corruption consist of raising someone to lvl 4 in Grail and then offering them Grail Sacrament. Perhaps we will need to only teach Winter for balance reasons or something along those lines.

People are saying that Mareinette would corrupt Velvet.
The one that is prepared.
The one that knew -sort of, maybe- what she was getting into.
Point is that voters think [Mareinette = corruption] and they also say [Mareinette-> Canterlot/Cadance = Solution].
So either they think that Cadance will Harmony[Verb] Mareinette into not our problem, or they are spending Cadance like a get-out-of-jail card so that they don't have lay with Mar- in the bed they've made.
Sure, maybe Cadance can pull the clutch, doubt it though.

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You see I expect Velvet lores to be useless again Mareinette. People are saying that Velvet is better suited to deal with her because she has lores, but Mareinette knows Lores. Even Lores beside Grail and Heart. She from long ago mastered every trick and every application. Other Names maybe able to surprise her but Velvet does not stand a chance.
And it is quite clear that if Mareinette wanted to just mind control Velvet she could have done it at any time. It just runs counter to her desire to corrupt her, as you need to be in some control of your facilities to become corrupted. And Mareinette is not interested in mindless toys, at least when it comes to ponies she is interested in.
So, given that as premise, Cadance have following advantages over Velvet :
a) Harmony
b) Able to offer Mareinette genuine friendship
c) Able to take Heart Sacrament if it is better than Grail one.
Of course last two matter only if there is something good left in Mareinette, and I assume that you will dismiss such possibility,or consider it too low to matter, so let's focus on Harmony.
As I said lvl4 and below Lores are useless against Mareinette, but Harmony would be outside context problem. It does not matter if Harmony may be weaker than Lores. What is important is that Harmony did not existed before Mareinette got stuck in the Mansus, and it may surprise her. Velvet does not have a bit of Harmony in her, while Cadance is Alicorn. Velvet does not stand much of a chance unless she use other Names help and it is only applicable to fighting Mareinette , while Cadance may be able to do it.

And most importantly think of the narrative! The evver after!
Sure, an Alukite influenced Hour would be bad -although I've not seen you argue against being influenced by other Names that would watch the world burn- but you know what kind of Hour would be bad?

One that sacrifices incredibly valuable, utterly devoted and clearly beloved minions just to not have to deal with the problems that they created!

At that point, Velvet might as well shed all emotional attachment to the idea of Family.

At that point she might as well not have any reason not to be an Alukite, when she could cast aside one loved ones life for the support of a Name, and later on the sacrifice of that Name would give something else and so on.

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And I sure hope that Velvet is more hopeful than that. It is not throwing Cadance under the bus. It is delegating. It is believing in her friends. It is acknowledging that there are things that she can't do on her own, and that others have better odds of success, and thus she should not try to do everything by herself, as it would just give worse results.
She may fear that Cadance will fall, that she would not be able to support her enough, she may even think and consider countermeasures for such scenario ( Writing it I immediately got mental picture of Velvet in Batman costume preparing contingencies against Alicorns for when they got corrupted or mind controlled ) but I also hope that Velvet would not let her fears to rule her.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Also the farmers need to stop losing limbs, damn it! We're trying to make Ponyville a breadbasket here!

 

[Shaper47]

So what part of Velvet's love does Evil represent, that it had to be fended off from Velvet's family's dreams by Selene when she was but a filly?

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Evil represents the ability to perform regrettable actions.

Velvet then proceed to use Evil/RA out of love.

Also for the Selene event with her brother he taught her Edge. That's just how lore lessons go sometimes. Considering how other lore lessons with Selene went it was actually on the lower end of the traumatizing scale.

 

[Pittauro]

You judged it good art, at least by the only metric that matters

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presumably the price?

For tonight, you are the Lady Velvet Covers has invited you over for dinner, to dine with her alone.

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...well, not alone alone...

A butler quickly receives you -- not as lazy as your own staff, but he failed to doff his cap, how disrespectful! -- and leads you to your destination. Ah, Lady Velvet had mentioned she wanted to make an occasion of this dinner, and perhaps she expects it to run long into the morning. That would explain why she has not arranged it in the main house itself, but in one of the off-buildings. It's the kind of thing a lesser socialite might take offense at, but you understand its deeper meaning.

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she really REALLY doesn't...

The person you have undoubtedly spent so much time with over the last few months

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riiiiight...

But before you can inquire, the smile has returned to her face. "There is just one thing to do before the two of us can eat, Rich. Come with me."

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of course we didn't specify WHICH two of us we meant...

"Lovely, thank you. Then that just means..." Velvet swallows. She takes a deep breath. And then she looks at you with a cold, cold, gaze. It reminds you of the gaze you gave your father, the last time you saw him. All those decades ago.

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damn, you're truly doing your best to NOT make us feel guilty about what's to follow!

"I'm going to tell you a secret, Mrs. Rich. Truthfully... I don't like myself very much." You open your mouth to respond, your eyes widening, but she continues on. And you will not interrupt her, your manners haven't failed you yet.

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oh, so moth before grail? makes sense.

"My husband -- my horseshoe." Didn't she agree that husbands were nothing but a very complicated tractor, unfortunately necessary to reap well-sown fields? What is she saying about a horseshoe?

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It's kinda funny how this could be read as both endearing, or, if it was said by Spoiled, as a "he's underneath my hoof" statement.

Her face is raw, agonized, tears running down her cheeks. You've never seen this pony in your life. You've never seen this pony in your life.

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just a little taste of what the ACTUAL Moth Sacrament is likely going to look like... especially considering the sacrifice is a pony who not ONLY is leashed, but we never even befriended ourselves in the first place!



All in all, this omake is actually tempting me to TRY and go for this scene... I even checked, and ACTUALLY we don't even need the 4 scraps to go for it!

So we COULD do it, if we wanted to... Well, technically she needs to be a minion for grail, OR just confidant for Moth... but I imagine something like Biedde assistance would narratively justify basically making her a prisoner" right at that moment, basically. Or Mareinette herself, really.

3) Send her to Cadance. I'm sorry, what? A relationship, sure. But trusting a lore initiate more than ourselves when it comes to managing her corrupting, intoxicating, influence?

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To be fair it worked with Comet. And in canon it worked with Discord.

Cadance is not quite Fluttershy... but she IS the Princess of Love. she MIGHT very well have a better chance than us... though, again, very risky bet.

Of course we're her friend. What friend doesn't consider how difficult it would be to murder the other in the climb for Glory? It's just common practice.

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unironically kind of true in CS, i imagine.

She'd definitely had a problem if she SAW us making ACTUAL preparations, but idle musings? I'm sure she's at least THOUGHT about eating Silky, but of course she wouldn't disrespect us so much so we can't hold it against her, right? And she'll be courteous enough to forgive a mother for thinking about killing a potential threat to her daughter and future meal.

So funnily enough, as a minor bit of mechanics minmaxing, because All In occurs "between turns", I'm pretty sure that we can't bring Name-granted influences to All In, but we CAN bring a Called influence to All In since it persists between turns. So if we go All In between turns X and X+1, we can do Calling of Influence on turn X and bring that Influence into All In.

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the "can't bring name influences" is probably kind of irrelevant.

We wouldn't want to bring influences from not-befriended Names, because as far as we know they CAN spy us through it, as an influence is LITERALLY actively maintained by them and is supposedly their attention on us.

As for influences from befriended names... well, they can call influences at will. so they could do it on themselves during the expeditions, which is basically the same result.

So... uh.... I think our strategy for Biedde is literally just sacrifice him for the sake of getting a 2 turn influence in a Calling of Influence ritual on our final turn. He explicitly does not mind being sacrificed. He gets to join us on the final dungeon after all. In spirit.

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...uh. Sacrificing our not-friendly Names BEFORE the All-In expeditions for influence bonuses isn't a bad idea, actually. Though if we think the bindings are unbreakable by Names (kind of unclear. CAN they disobey DIRECT orders?), we could just give very specific orders about what to do while we do All-In (and right after) instead.

I don't think there's been any clue that Daybreaker is worm related, that seems to be all Celestia. Harmony drenched Celestia.

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The implication is that Daybreaker is a bit wolf-influenced I think, not Worm-influenced.

Remember how the lowest sanity roll for Celestia was basically her splitting in Daybreaker (wolf) and filly Celestia (Ainè), in a repeat of the Intercalate?

Talking about Cadance befriending and redeeming (or at least ameliorating) Mareinette seems like crazy talk to me!

It reminds me of thinking that possession by the Master would be fun in some ways, that we'd get to show off or have a Disco Elysium-style experience.

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Possession was foolish, because it puts all the power in the relationship on the master's side.

BUT, if we ignored the monstrosity of the act, having him be reborn as Cadance's son COULD have worked long-term.

Moth is change. He COULD have changed to fit an harmony world and/or a world with a Velvet-hour.

well, maybe. We'll never know. His main goal was protecting the world from the Worms, and he'd have been born in a world in which we presumably accomplished that, so a friendly relationship after that was definitely POSSIBLE... but hard to say how much his OTHER priorities would have clashed with ours.

To some extent I think we WOULD like the lores to be spread in Equestria a bit more, BUT we also would want to prevent the worst of it, like Windigo summonings...

To a point the Bureau in a more lore-using world could punish many eldritch crimes just by repeated abuse of Tapestry ritual to scry for criminals.

Baldomare almost certainly took Mareinette's Grail sacrament when she was a mortal aspirant

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what? most likely not, actually.

Remember, in this quest's setting it's NOT normal for a cultist to have more than 2 affinities for principles. Even the princesses seem to have 4 at most.

and Baldomare was Lantern and Secret History. I doubt she HAD Grail.

PRESUMABLY Names can use some of the other lores (as seen by how the Master could use them all), but as mortals? Probably not.

Although maybe that's too tunnel visioned. The Lionsmith might be getting shortchanged, after all "It doesn't matter who you hurt as long as you're proving you're the best" is PURE Lionsmith. Honestly I'm leaning more and more Lionsmith. "We dont have to be one and the same thing" is very very very Lionsmith.

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also, you know... "oh what's so wrong with a little Competition..."

it sounds pretty Lionsmithy too.

Point is that voters think [Mareinette = corruption] and they also say [Mareinette-> Canterlot/Cadance = Solution].
So either they think that Cadance will Harmony[Verb] Mareinette into not our problem, or they are spending Cadance like a get-out-of-jail card so that they don't have lay with Mar- in the bed they've made.
Sure, maybe Cadance can pull the clutch, doubt it though.

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I see it as a similar bet to what was done with Discord in canon.

Which is NOT to say I think it's a good idea. Celestia releasing Discord like that was beyond risky, and even a FRIENDLY Discord nearly caused the apocalypse by accident by empowering Chrysalis, Tirek, Cozy Glow, and indirectly resulting in the Windigos coming back!

BUT it could work. we KNOW that Harmony can work, because it did with Fluttershy and Biedde, AND it did with Selene (somewhat).

Another harmonic Alicorn influencing Mareinette is possible. we really don't know enough to say if it's PROBABLE though.

Additionally, the Stains are... odd, compared to Sacraments. They are far more autonomous, and are not entirely of Velvet, and she doesn't really know what will exactly spawn when she calls upon the Wolf-Divided, whereas a Sacrament is all Velvet with the exact costs clearly laid out.

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keep in mind they HAVE influenced Velvet too though. She has spoken the wolf tongue at times, for example. And remember that one un-threadmarked update when she got really angry about her filly potentially having a colt admirer, shortly considering a wolf ritual to... I think it was to keep her young forever? I forget the details.

Taking the Grail Sacrament makes for a Velvet that does approve of cannibalism for friendship and profit.

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To be fair, it's POSSIBLE that Velvet would NOT be fine with the act afterward as much as we fear... Sacrament is a change, but it has been mentioned there's a note of growing the right organs, so maybe that's the only change.

But sure, her eating a pony means that, at the very least, the accepts that sometimes, in some cases, eating a pony is justifiable.

Like, for example, when it's an amazing source of power (Sacrament) and a way to get closer to a powerful player (Mareinette).

Beyond that... well, the fluff seems to imply that the sacrament power WILL have to do with Cannibalism. Probably something like getting bonuses from eating ponies, either by "preserving" their ritual sacrifice bonus for later, or maybe getting extra health or bonuses temporarily, or something like that.

 

[spiderhellian]

So we COULD do it, if we wanted to... Well, technically she needs to be a minion for grail, OR just confidant for Moth...

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For what it's worth, iirc we took the option that let us get her to Conifdant more easily. So I think one Mareinette action, and a leash, would probably suffice.

 

[ses]

Beyond that... well, the fluff seems to imply that the sacrament power WILL have to do with Cannibalism. Probably something like getting bonuses from eating ponies, either by "preserving" their ritual sacrifice bonus for later, or maybe getting extra health or bonuses temporarily, or something like that.

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It could possibly be slightly more broad than that, though with an emphasis on munching people. In fact I'd go ahead and guess that it's literally "+1 sacrifice slot on all rituals by eating an ingredient. You can eat a pony and get their sacrifice bonus or just make an edible Reagent with your forge realization". There was after all, an entire line about how Velvet could have drank the Heart 4 and Grail 4 ingredients herself during Mareinette's summoning but wasn't crazy/knowledgeable enough to do so safely so she force fed them to the boar instead.

Regardless, having a Name befriended is already more than reward enough even if we never actually hit Grail 5 or use the sacrament perk. Not all the realizations were winners. I'm honestly expecting Axe to get bumped up to 2 actions a turn once we finish her befriending event at the end of this turn. If that happens I will be screaming to befriend Mareinette asap because holy shit that'd be amazing for our plans.

I just started my very first Apostle run just a few minutes ago by the way, in service of Copper Secateur, our Delight. On the one hand starting the game with Elridge was awesome because I just murdered my way into Glover and Glover in the first two minutes, on the other hand I'm now seeing the MAJOR downside to having an Apostle run with a non-matching Cult because, uh, inducting new recruits is a lot harder when you can't use the free level 10 lore you get at the start to induct disciples. Gonna have to find Morland's asap.

No regrets though, the ability to not give a flip about Notoriety by creating a mountain of detective corpses is just too good to give up, and that's only possible with an Edge or Winter cult.

 

[Limabot]

Just a random thought I had; if we continued on the Cultist Path instead of forming the proto-Suppression Bureau, would Beyond Reproach eventually have become a Hunter for Velvet?

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Baldomare considers Mareinette to be a friend. Baldomare almost certainly took Mareinette's Grail sacrament when she was a mortal aspirant. Baldomare does not seem to have carried over any sort of "alukite taint" into her ascent to being an immortal.

Cadance has "shared interests" with Mareinette. Shared interests is in present tense, not future tense. Mareinette can befriend Cadance. It will be more complicated than just "Cadance purifies Mareinette with the power of love!" AND IT WILL ALSO be more complicated than "Mareinette mind controls Cadance into munching on all the babies and corrupts her!"

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I agree on the Cadance-Mareinette interaction being complicated, but I disagree that Baldomare has "almost certainly" taken Mareinette's Sacrament when mortal. We have no indicator that the Lantern/SH Name would have gotten that deep into the Grail sauce as a mortal, and she has had countless years to establish a friendship in other ways with Mareinette. For all we know Mareinette taught her how to eat the knowledge straight out of books like spaghetti and that's how their friendship started.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

I agree on the Cadance-Mareinette interaction being complicated, but I disagree that Baldomare has "almost certainly" taken Mareinette's Sacrament when mortal. We have no indicator that the Lantern/SH Name would have gotten that deep into the Grail sauce as a mortal, and she has had countless years to establish a friendship in other ways with Mareinette. For all we know Mareinette taught her how to eat the knowledge straight out of books like spaghetti and that's how their friendship started.

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All the Names are super old and skilled in all lores that why they are Names. Assume all the Names have 5-6 in every lore.