Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Nevermort]

and... yeah, I'm starting to lean towards the Grail Sacrament. I'm STRONGLY against doing it on Spoiled Rich, she's bad but not THAT bad, already the Moth Sacrament is pretty cruel.

We can do something like a minor scry for "foal peddler/serial killer" and send Biedde to get them after we have the prison and grail scraps ready. It's an easy guilt-free target, and it wouldn't cost us that much all things considered.

Total max cost is basically 1 Biedde action, 1 Selene action (to scry), 30 bits for that ritual, and 1 Velvet action.

It's an acceptable cost. And we NEED extra power.

For All In, for the Malleary, for what's beyond the Tricuspid too maybe...

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I think latest idea was to do Grail Sacrament this very turn. Because we need to pay Mareinette price after it. Ironically Spoiled is not fast enough. Biedde for sure can capture somepony and then guard them.

Although if people wanted to play villain protag they should have started much earlier to not lose so many opportunities.

 

[Limabot]

[X] Plan Knife, Name, and Candle

 

[Sveta08]

[X] Plan Exact Spending

 

[Nevermort]

Looked back at Fluttershy contest for Comet, found QM post mentioning that while rolls were omitted it was akin to combat and Harmony was definitely involved.

[Rolling: And He Will Not Release Him]

[Rolling: For Every Single Living Creature]

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Just a reminder that Harmony is at least willing to fight for its champions.

 

[Greymere]

So I just thought of this, but @OurLadyOfWires is leveling up Cadance's lores now going to be an option we can take, or is anything more than just initiation still too risky because of Celestia?

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

If we let Marinette hang out with Cadance more she will have a very convincing cover story for who taught her the spooky magics.

Celestia: "HOW? TELL ME SO I MAY TEAR THE SECRETS OF WHERE THEY TOOK LUNA FROM THEIR SHRIEKING, BROKE-"

Mareinette: [GRAIL!]

Celestia: "Oh, understandable, it was quite brash of me to presume you knew where Luna was, my apologies."

Edit: Okay so maybe it won't be that simple, but it is amusing to think about.

 

[DelightedOne]

If we let Marinette hang out with Cadance more she will have a very convincing cover story for who taught her the spooky magics.

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And there is also that hopeful possibility of Lantern 3 Celestia taking a good look at Mareinette and going all "Face the Sun, Monster." It is even more likely to happen if she is pretending to be Cadance at the time considering Celestia's previous experience with a shapeshifter(we know she isn't but Celestia is working on limited information) on the throne.

 

[Maer]

On the Moth/Grail Whombo-Combo Sacrament Boogaloo.

People don't like the idea of Grail-Sac'ing Spoiled because she's 'not that bad'. And to be fair, that's true, but... she's also the worst pony we currently know. The Moth->Grail Sacrament Combo saves time, effort, and resources. It is efficient and effective, and while cruel, it also at least ends her misery quickly, rather than dragging it out. The Moth reveal we have planned is already exceptionally cruel, revealing it was never US that she was friends with, and always a pony/foal-eating eldritch monster. Grail'ing her after just makes that horror more intense, but it also ends quickly. Her life after Moth will NEVER be the same, and NEVER recover.

She's already decided to view her marriage as an investment, she won't love Filthy, and that most likely won't change. So... we've permanently altered their marriage and Diamond's home life already. Wouldn't excising that wound be better for everyone involved? Diamond loses a mother, but can gain a new one and can finally live her life with fewer, if any, harsh expectations or demands from an overbearing mother who doesn't love her- at least not like she should- while Filthy can finally grieve a love lost and move on to find real love and happiness. Spoiled at least gets to move on to whatever afterlife Harmony has where she can heal and rest far away from the horrors happening to both herself, and Equestria at large.

Now, that's all emotional stuff, but how about the more hard and logical reasons? It saves AT LEAST 3 AP. Finding a Pony. Traveling TO them/capture expedition. Holding them until the sacrament costing at minimum some of our follower AP.

Not to mention the suspicion it'll rack up... No. It is cheaper in AP, Bits, and Follower actions to simply Moth->Grail Spoiled.

So.

Cruel? Yes, Exceptionally so. But a sharp spike of cruelty that quickly ends, as opposed to the lasting horror of what we've done and minor cruelties she enacts on her husband and daughter over time.
Efficient? Also Yes. More-so than the other plans involving the Grail Sacrament.

So, other than the cruelty aspect, which will be present no matter what we do, can someone explain to me why the Combo is so unwanted? Especially when we need to be more efficient with our AP usage than ever before until Soothe The Night can HOPEFULLY fix Celestia?

I am willing to be convinced, I just need an argument that can make more sense than what I have heard so far. Especially with how worried everyone is over everything. It doesn't even waste time building a Prison we'll need only like... once. Unless I missed something. But I don't think we'll need any prisoners in the next 4 turns unless a LOT of people get VERY cool with Pony sacrifice for various rituals REAL fast.

 

[Sveta08]

Large shrug.

While I like the idea of the combo for efficiency... and because I like the potential storyline that comes from it, I'm not married to the idea.

No one, and I do mean no one that I have seen, seems to be against the idea of the Moth Sacrament there. With Celestia looming as the ever present threat of the Sun, I don't think anyone is arguing that fact.
The Grail half is the larger argument. And saying Spoiled doesn't deserve that? Honestly, fair.

But! The Grail Sacrament still serves it's purpose. Even if not using Spoiled for it.
Both renewing the contract with Our Lady, as well as potentially getting her help when it comes to All In. Help that... to be frank, we will likely need.

 

[Maer]

[X] Plan Knives and Names
[X] Plan Knife, Name, and Candle

That's My Two cents on the vote.


But to clarify… I think the tides are turning on the Grail Sacrament. More people are beginning to be okay with- or at least resigned to doing- it, and the general vibe I got from the last few page were a number of people talking about getting it and how to get a prisoner for it, with almost no one actually arguing against it.

So with that in mind, I have to wonder why we're hamstringing ourselves like this? Why would we intentionally spend more AP than necessary when we can get Grail and Moth sacraments in the same turn, for less AP, with only a single victim?

Heck, as far as cruelty goes even finding a 'deserving' victim still means we were cruel to two people instead of only one. That should also be considered.

So yeah. I'm not necessarily married to the idea either, but it's not been told no even when directly addressed by the QM, so it's possible, and would save SO much time and effort… I just struggle to justify NOT doing the Combo.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

As I have repeatably mentioned we need Mareinette on our side. Both for getting Heart 4, and for the final all mission. We do not want to be facing down an enemy Mareinette for the final mission, which will happen if we don't befriend her.

Don't think for a moment any of the names lack other lore knowledge assume they at minimum have 5's in every lore.

 

[Greymere]

I am willing to be convinced, I just need an argument that can make more sense than what I have heard so far. Especially with how worried everyone is over everything. It doesn't even waste time building a Prison we'll need only like... once. Unless I missed something. But I don't think we'll need any prisoners in the next 4 turns unless a LOT of people get VERY cool with Pony sacrifice for various rituals REAL fast.

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Putting aside that I just don't like Mareinette or her Grail Sacrament, or really any emotional arguments at all, my problem with it mechanically is that we do not actually have reason to consider that it's possible at all. Bird never actually said that he would allow such as thing, just more-or-less that he would think about it if enough people were willing for go for the Grail Sacrament generally.

this is quite tempting as far as bribery humble requests go, but... well, why don't we get the thread to a point they are willing to commit to this first? Then we can discuss terms

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[Maer]

Putting aside that I just don't like Mareinette or her Grail Sacrament, or really any emotional arguments at all, my problem with it mechanically is that we do not actually have reason to consider that it's possible at all. Bird never actually said that he would allow such as thing, just more-or-less that he would think about it if enough people were willing for go for the Grail Sacrament generally.

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Yes. Exactly. Mechanically, it has not received a no. So, if enough people are on board for it, Bird is willing to discuss/think about it. People are coming around to the idea, and discussion on how to make it happen as a normal, individual Sacrament are already happening with little if any argument against it. I'd say that counts. But still, you're right that it hasn't been officially accepted as possible by Bird yet. So I guess I'll ping them and check.

@OurLadyOfWires Apologies if it is too soon or not enough people are displaying interest, but as Greymere quoted, you mentioned that you'd consider the double-Sacrament option once enough people were willing to do the Grail sacrament. From what I've seen over the least several pages, numerous people are willing, and there are even plans being made to try and figure out the optimal way to find a prisoner to use for it, while few if any people are arguing against doing the Grail Sacrament- even if only out of a begrudging acknowledgement of the necessity of it.

I was wondering if you'd be willing to revisit the idea of using Spoiled for both the Moth and Grail Sacraments now? You don't have to make a decision immediately- obviously, that'd be a ridiculous demand to make of you- but now that it might happen in the next few turns before T-25, I was curious and hoping you'd think it over and let us know once you decided.

Thank you for this whole Quest. It's been an incredible few years following this Story as it's grown. The fact it's been less than 2 full years in-quest is also INSANE when you think about everything that's happened. Like... holy CROW this has been a WILD ride for poor Velvet and Equestria as a whole.

 

[Greymere]

@Maer some more thoughts.

Again speaking just purely mechanically, targeting someone else this turn costs us less than trying to go after Spoiled for both, ultimately. Trying to use Spoiled for both Moth and Grail means that we still have to pay Mareinette's price at the end of this turn. Getting a random prisoner this turn means that they can be used between turns as the price for Mareinette's renewal via Sacrament, so we wouldn't have to fork over a bunch of AP, bits, or a powerful artifact.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

As I have repeatably mentioned we need Mareinette on our side. Both for getting Heart 4, and for the final all mission. We do not want to be facing down an enemy Mareinette for the final mission, which will happen if we don't befriend her.

Don't think for a moment any of the names lack other lore knowledge assume they at minimum have 5's in every lore.

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Again, you have zero evidence that Marinette becomes an enemy if we All-In without befriending her.

As for why the arguments for/against cannibalism are not flaring up into some big drama at this time, it's really simple: it's not time to vote on that stuff. The Moods of Mareinette do not affect the actions available to us, at least not at this time, so why should people waste their energy arguing against stuff that is independent of the current vote?

Also, I still feel that a Moth Sacrament enabled purely by Mareinette Socials is probably the least cruel way one can Moth Sacrament someone. It's less, "Velvet is a lying trickster who I know is false even though no one else can see it," and more, "oh, Mareinette, it was very thoughtful of you to take a form I was more comfortable with, but you needn't do that anymore with me," and then Velvet gets locked to Acquaintance because the Sacramented Pony realizes that Velvet never was the pony that was helping her out, it was Marinette, and so Mareinette nabs all those friendship ranks for herself.

Now I am imagining Mareinette introducing her new friend Spoiled to her other new friend Cadance via another rousing night of heavy, heavy drinking.

Also, if Mareinette can be placated by tossing an artifact here way, I'm all for it. Trying to get people to study the things has almost always been an exercise in frustration anyways, let her feast upon the things if she wishes. It's not like they can help Velvet in the Mansus at this point anyways, her Lores are too high.

 

[Maer]

@Maer some more thoughts.

Again speaking just purely mechanically, targeting someone else this turn costs us less than trying to go after Spoiled for both, ultimately. Trying to use Spoiled for both Moth and Grail means that we still have to pay Mareinette's price at the end of this turn. Getting a random prisoner this turn means that they can be used between turns as the price for Mareinette's renewal via Sacrament, so we wouldn't have to fork over a bunch of AP, bits, or a powerful artifact.

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That isn't exactly true. Sacraments have been stated to be capable of being performed before you reach 4/4 scraps, it's just not something a person usually does. We could do the Moth Sacrament right now, if we wanted. We'd just need to read the book afterwards before we could get to Moth 5. So we could theoretically do both the same turn Spoiled get's turned. Unless I'm mis-remembering something?

I think Bird confirmed that, anyways. I can go digging if you need me to quote it, though I'm not sure how far back it was. Regardless, if you have proof I'm wrong about that understanding, I'd be willing to accept that as well.

Also, side-note, thank you for reminding me her renewal was this turn. I had forgotten how long ago we renewed her bindings and thought we had more time. The urgency makes significantly more sense to me now. If Sacraments REQUIRE 4/4 Scraps before you do them, then I will be fine with focusing on doing them separately. If they don't though, I'd like more people to consider doing the Combo, if only for the sake of efficiency and AP Hell considerations.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

That isn't exactly true. Sacraments have been stated to be capable of being performed before you reach 4/4 scraps, it's just not something a person usually does. We could do the Moth Sacrament right now, if we wanted. We'd just need to read the book afterwards before we could get to Moth 5. So we could theoretically do both the same turn Spoiled get's turned. Unless I'm mis-remembering something?

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"Actions of your own: "You have never really liked yourself. That is an ugly truth you have always denied, and that you attempted to bury underneath the love that others feel for you. But perhaps, and only perhaps, it is time to embrace that, and learn to be somepony else."
-Pick a single character with whom you have a "Confidant-level" relationship or higher. That character will be permanently locked as an "acquaintance". For somepony must realize that you have donned a mask, for it to truly exist.
-You must reach 4/4 scraps of Moth before taking this action."

I have bolded the relevant text for the Moth Sacrament. There are some Sacraments where you only need 2/4 Scraps to get started on them. Velvet's Moth Sacrament is not one of them, the Moth book must be read first.

 

[Nevermort]

As I have repeatably mentioned we need Mareinette on our side. Both for getting Heart 4, and for the final all mission. We do not want to be facing down an enemy Mareinette for the final mission, which will happen if we don't befriend her.

Don't think for a moment any of the names lack other lore knowledge assume they at minimum have 5's in every lore.

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Or we deal with Celestia instead. I already argued at some point that to safely clear All-in we need to resolve her issue. I don't even care that much how exactly as long as Luna is okay with it or accepts it as necessary. But the moment she and Luna begin seriously fighting they will obliterate Canterlot with their no holds barred attacks. And Luna is necessary for All-in expedition. This is most narratively compelling moment for their confrontation if we don't do something before that.

 

[Greymere]

That isn't exactly true. Sacraments have been stated to be capable of being performed before you reach 4/4 scraps, it's just not something a person usually does. We could do the Moth Sacrament right now, if we wanted. We'd just need to read the book afterwards before we could get to Moth 5. So we could theoretically do both the same turn Spoiled get's turned. Unless I'm mis-remembering something?

I think Bird confirmed that, anyways. I can go digging if you need me to quote it, though I'm not sure how far back it was. Regardless, if you have proof I'm wrong about that understanding, I'd be willing to accept that as well.

Also, side-note, thank you for reminding me her renewal was this turn. I had forgotten how long ago we renewed her bindings and thought we had more time. The urgency makes significantly more sense to me now. If Sacraments REQUIRE 4/4 Scraps before you do them, then I will be fine with focusing on doing them separately. If they don't though, I'd like more people to consider doing the Combo, if only for the sake of efficiency and AP Hell considerations.

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Some Sacraments can, it depends on the Sacrament itself. The more important thing is that Bird has said that unless whatever missing part of a Sacrament can be fulfilled by a 100% chance thing like scraps from a Name or (presumably) our Leash, all of the requirements for a Sacrament must be fulfilled by turn start before the Sacrament action may be taken. We cannot do either the Grail or Moth Sacrament this turn, because we have not fulfilled the conditions for either (Moth 4 4/4 + Confidant that we're willing to sacrifice for Moth, a Minion we're willing to sacrifice or a Prisoner for Grail). The only reason we should be able to sort of cheat this in regards to the Grail Sacrament is because Mareinette's binding renewal technically happens "between" turns, so if we successfully acquire a prisoner this turn, that means there should be a prisoner available during the contract renewal and therefore the Grail Sacrament.

Edit: The relevant bit of discussion

Yeah as far as Bird seems concerned, it seems we need to pretty much have all the conditions met before the turn actually starts. The only reason we can get away with doing DoA's Sacrament this turn is because Name lessons are both quick, basically on-command, and guaranteed to work.

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Yeah. And I'll say it again. For you guys, doing a Sacrament is as easy as picking an option after you fulfill the prerequisites. This being a game, you guys have the "guarantee" it will either work, or that you will runs a dice test under known circumstances.

But to Velvet, it is a plunge into the unknown.

So, I really don't like the idea of "gain final scrap on this turn, and try the Sacrament right after". She needs time to prepare, to understand what she knows and put her thoughts in order... hell, she needs to psyche herself up.

Because the last experience she had with something like this were her Realizations. And those were mostly (1) traumatic and (2) caught her by surprise.

So no, she is not interested in rushing into what is effectively a juiced up and voluntary version of that. She will want to prepare herself, both ritualistically and mentally.

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[DelightedOne]

Or we deal with Celestia instead. I already argued at some point that to safely clear All-in we need to resolve her issue. I don't even care that much how exactly as long as Luna is okay with it or accepts it as necessary. But the moment she and Luna begin seriously fighting they will obliterate Canterlot with their no holds barred attacks. And Luna is necessary for All-in expedition. This is most narratively compelling moment for their confrontation if we don't do something before that.

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I agree with your strategy/point of view, but our true enemy here isn't exactly Celestia, it is Daybreaker.

She is the one making Celestia focus all of herself(including her Kindness and Generosity) into keeping her bound leaving whatever shell of herself Velvet deals with. If it really came down to it Celestia could forgive Velvet for what she has done(or at least let her live) if Selene and Cadance vouched for her, Daybreaker wouldn't.