Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Limabot]

I may be missing something, but weren't we going to do one of the SH Sacraments this turn?

 

[AuthorTransient]

Oh damn it, Windy Flakes still got away. Hmm... we could fetch him and immediately nom him, I suppose. And we want to do the Tall Tale expedition to prevent a further catastrophe and Celestia breathing down our necks... also I'm extremely busy and can't plan. And the only reason why I wanted the Heart lesson was to see Marienette's Heart sacrament.

 

[Sveta08]

I may be missing something, but weren't we going to do one of the SH Sacraments this turn?

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There was quite a bit of talk about it a while ago. But the discussion was more or less between Secret History Sacraments, or Edge Sacrament and studying lots. And given Biedde is being weird and Mothy, most of the discussion shifted to be around him

That, at least, was more or less the trends if I remember right.

 

[DelightedOne]

I may be missing something, but weren't we going to do one of the SH Sacraments this turn?

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Yes we were, but now things seem to have shifted to Baldomare giving a Lantern Influence so we can study the Lantern 4 Artifact(for scrying purposes) and the Moth 5 book(for survival purposes).

 

[Greymere]

Oh damn it, Windy Flakes still got away. Hmm... we could fetch him and immediately nom him, I suppose. And we want to do the Tall Tale expedition to prevent a further catastrophe and Celestia breathing down our necks... also I'm extremely busy and can't plan. And the only reason why I wanted the Heart lesson was to see Marienette's Heart sacrament.

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Well, he didn't exactly 'get away'. He separated from the cult back when the Trigger Event happened, so he wasn't affiliated with Copper's cult (The Gardeners) at all, as far as we're aware. We don't know where he is or what he's up to, currently. Probably something Wolfish.

 

[ses]

Selene could likely do it as well, but given we just lost that roll from a Secret Histories failure, id really rather not repeat that problem

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Selene autopasses the SH roll. 30 from SH 3 artifact plus 30 general bonus. Considering that we have no issue hitting the CD 90 Lantern check to study the Lantern artifact we should just have Selene scry.

-[] (ALL IN) You will NOT attempt the "All In" expedition.
-[] (BIEDDE) Fund a short monster-hunting expedition (Costs 60 bits)
-[] (MAREINETTE) You introduced her to Cadance, yes, but you are still very interested in her endeavors.
-[] (FORGE NAME) You will attempt the "Rite of Joyous (Re)Forging"
-[] (SACRIFICES) 442 bits, Wrong Key, Forge 2 reagent

 

[Limabot]

There was quite a bit of talk about it a while ago. But the discussion was more or less between Secret History Sacraments, or Edge Sacrament and studying lots. And given Biedde is being weird and Mothy, most of the discussion shifted to be around him

That, at least, was more or less the trends if I remember right.

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Still, it has been basically confirmed that Celestia's doom counter (assuming Selene can't find a way to slow it down) is at its worst case scenario of going off by Turn 25, so the fact that none of the currently suggested plans have much in the way of Sacrament progress (except maybe a Moth book) is concerning.

 

[Greymere]

Still, it has been basically confirmed that Celestia's doom counter (assuming Selene can't find a way to slow it down) is at its worst case scenario of going off by Turn 25, so the fact that none of the currently suggested plans have much in the way of Sacrament progress (except maybe a Moth book) is concerning.

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...Pittauro, Sveta, and I's plans all include getting (or at least attempting) Edge Sacrament though?

 

[Limabot]

...Pittauro, Sveta, and I's plans all include getting (or at least attempting) Edge Sacrament though?

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Oh. I guess I didn't see that.

 

[ses]

Yeah Biedde's invitation is looking really good since Baldomare wont be befriended next turn anyway... which means that we're only doing a pleasant hike and not our personal SH sacrament next turn. So we can risk wounds more easily this turn. And frankly despite how it worked out last time I'd not be too worried about attending Tall Tale in person even at 1 wounds, especially since Velvet can just provide Lantern and let the constables handle the combat if so. I wouldn't vote to abort if we failed Edge Sacrament.

Turn 22
Selene	Soothe the Night		AotL	Edge
Selene	Scry for Book		Winter
Selene	Knock-Spy on Windy		Forge	Forge 2
Baldomare	Lantern Influence		Knock	Stairways
Axe	Wrong Keys		Social	Teach Rarity
Axe	Edge AotL		Velvet	Soft's Request
Mareinette	Honored Guest-Spoiled		Velvet	Study Books(Moth 5>Manehattan>Knock 2)
Biedde	Edge Influence		Velvet	Study Artifacts(Lantern 4>Winter 4)
Jade	LOCKED		Velvet	Forge Name(442 bits, WK, Forge 2)
Rarity	Find a 3circle Site		Bases	Edge Sacrament(Biedde)
Fluttercomet	Edge AotL
Servants	Bases
Risen	Bases
Detectives	Dodge City
Constables	Tall Tale
Commissioner	Hoofs Dirty
Knowledge	Lantern
Forge Name	Build a Prison/Unique Action

Proposal turn 22 plan, because thankfully the QM assigns actions according to who would do them best we don't need to ping him to ask whether Axe or Rarity would do better at Finding a 3circle Site, since it'll get autoassigned. Current placement of generic actions are just placeholders/assumptions.

Leashing Filthy not included, but if people want to leash him he'd be good for finding a 3circle site. I personally am not taking a stand on that and others can decide.

 

[Nevermort]

Normally, I am all for solving problems well ahead of them rearing their head. But this is a bit much even for me.

Rarity is a right mess, but unless we suddenly change tracks, I don't think we need/want her to take a Grail Sacrament. Cadence... That's four lore levels away before it is even a concern.

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Oh no. It is not exactly problems. More like a course of action. I mean we don't even know how exactly rising follower to level 5 work and degree of Velvet influence on said follower ability. It very well may be that we would not know until we try.
What we know is that Velvet will gain ability to eat meat. She even gains organ for it, and new organ may need additional sustenance. But eating meat while not exactly norm for a pony is not something bad I think. Velvet got boar for Mareinette summon, so for a noble like her getting new food would not be big issue. But still, would Velvet feel ashamed of her action every time she eats nice well cooked steak?
I don't want for Grail sacrament to become another regrettable action that Velvet can't confess to her family. Even when it comes to actual Regrettable Actions I would like her to resolve them at some point. What Luna will think if she learns? What about DoA?
So the only solution would be to make sure that more and more ponies accept new Velvet's palate! Introduce them to wonders of omnivore cusine. Revisit human equestria for new receipts! Run culinary show in spare time. Eat bacon at family table!

It is not that I am convinced that Velvet would not be able to stop after taking Grail Sacrament. But more like why would she? Just so she feels guilty? If we cross this line we can as well get maximum out of it.

 

[Greymere]

I'm currently putting together a variant of my plan, for those of you who want to go for Mareinette Sacrament. I'm still undecided on how exactly I feel about it (on one hand, don't like her and icky alukite Grail; on the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any way of dealing with her that doesn't result in making the social-specialist with a million health Name our enemy and getting fucked over hard), but dammit, if we're going to commit cannibalism I have Opinions on how it should go!

 

[DelightedOne]

Might as well share my current concept of turn 22(that is a variation of Greymere's because that is the one that looks most like what I want).

Follower Phase
Bureau:
-Detectives: Dodge City
-Constables: Tall Tale Proto-Hive
-Commissioner: Get our hooves dirty
-Free Lore Introduction - Lantern

Followers:
-Mareinette: Filthy & Spoiled Rich
-Baldomare: Lantern Influence
-Biedde: Edge Influence
-DoA (2): Currently unknown, Knock Influence
-Selene (3): RotT for Level 7 book (boosted either by studied artifact or by reagent, depending), look for 3-circle site, Soothe the Night
-Rarity: Edge AotL(Sacrament)
-Comet: Edge AotL(Sacrament)
-Risen: Cover your bases
- Servants: Cover your bases

Velvet Phase:
- AotL: Lantern
- Knock: Shattered Stairways
- Forge Reagent: Lantern 3
- Free Social: Applejack
1) Study: Moth 5 book, Lantern 4 artifact
2) Study: "A memory of the Path"(is anyone surprised?)
3) Soft Sweeps FO
4) Forge Name summoning (AP deducted pre-turn)
5) Edge Sacrament

Now for the question: @OurLadyOfWires can Influences be used to study rituals? Even though they don't work when using them?

 

[Nevermort]

I'm currently putting together a variant of my plan, for those of you who want to go for Mareinette Sacrament. I'm still undecided on how exactly I feel about it (on one hand, don't like her and icky alukite Grail; on the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any way of dealing with her that doesn't result in making the social-specialist with a million health Name our enemy and getting fucked over hard), but dammit, if we're going to commit cannibalism I have Opinions on how it should go!

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If people don't believe in Harmony we can release her bindings and declare her our new Master. Well, Mistress I guess.
Tell her to make her own plans on how to deal with Worms, as they would greatly interfere with her own good time. Still secretly prepare for All-in expedition.

 

[Sveta08]

Oh no. It is not exactly problems. More like a course of action. I mean we don't even know how exactly rising follower to level 5 work and degree of Velvet influence on said follower ability. It very well may be that we would not know until we try.
What we know is that Velvet will gain ability to eat meat. She even gains organ for it, and new organ may need additional sustenance. But eating meat while not exactly norm for a pony is not something bad I think. Velvet got boar for Mareinette summon, so for a noble like her getting new food would not be big issue. But still, would Velvet feel ashamed of her action every time she eats nice well cooked steak?
I don't want for Grail sacrament to become another regrettable action that Velvet can't confess to her family. Even when it comes to actual Regrettable Actions I would like her to resolve them at some point. What Luna will think if she learns? What about DoA?
So the only solution would be to make sure that more and more ponies accept new Velvet's palate! Introduce them to wonders of omnivore cusine. Revisit human equestria for new receipts! Run culinary show in spare time. Eat bacon at family table!

It is not that I am convinced that Velvet would not be able to stop after taking Grail Sacrament. But more like why would she? Just so she feels guilty? If we cross this line we can as well get maximum out of it.

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That's ... a lot of assumptions made fairly quickly into a fairly standard slippery slope problem.

Listen. If you have qualms with the Grail Sacrament, that's okay! I don't blame you, it looks like cannibalism. We don't know how that will change Velvet on the far end. Well, beyond the fact that there are things she is willing to do. It's a change in mindset such as body. Soul, or something like that.

But the Knock Sacrament did not make her slither like a snake nor drip poison nor grow fangs. It will be a change. I don't think catsstrophising it over what might yet be will get us anywhere.

 

[Greymere]

Okay, behold: The two plans! Currently assuming that we'll summon the Forge Name (bcuz of course) and that we cannot use the Lantern artifact on the same turn that we study it. If it turns out otherwise, just replace the "Lantern 3 reagent for RotT" for "Forge 2 reagent for Forge Name".

Spoiler: Plan 1: No (or Later) Cannibalism

Detectives - Dodge City
Constables - Tall Tale Proto-Hive
Commissioner - Get our hooves dirty (aka directly help w/ both of the above)
Free Lore Introduction - Lantern

Mareinette - Filthy & Spoiled Rich
Baldomare - Lantern Influence
Biedde - Edge Influence
DoA (2) - Search for intermediate expeditions (x2)
Forge Name - Forge lesson
Selene (3) - RotT for Level 7 book (Lantern 3 reagent boost), look for 3-circle site, Soothe the Night
Rarity - Edge AotL (for Sacrament)
Comet - Edge AotL (for Sacrament)
Risen - Cover your bases
Servants - Cover your bases

AotL - Either Edge, Lantern, or Grail
Knock - Shattered Stairways
Forge - Lantern 3 for RotT
Grail - Spoiled Rich
Social - Cheerilee
1+2) Study: Moth 5 book, Lantern 4 artifact, Manehattan book, Winter 4 artifact
3) Soft Sweeps FO
4) Forge Name summoning (AP deducted pre-turn)
5) Edge Sacrament

Spoiler: Plan 2: Cannibalism Now

Detectives - Dodge City
Constables - Tall Tale Proto-Hive
Commissioner - Get our hooves dirty (aka directly help w/ both of the above)
Free Lore Introduction - Lantern

Mareinette - Filthy & Spoiled Rich
Baldomare - Lantern Influence
Biedde - Edge Influence
DoA (2) - Capture a prisoner (not from Ponyville, and preferably not a random civilian, if possible), search for intermediate expedition (or repeat prisoner-capture, if it fails)
Forge Name - Build a prison
Selene (3) - RotT for Level 7 book (Lantern 3 reagent boost), look for 3-circle site, Soothe the Night
Rarity - Edge AotL (for Sacrament)
Comet - Edge AotL (for Sacrament)
Risen - Cover your bases
Servants - Cover your bases

AotL - Either Edge, Lantern, or Grail
Knock - Shattered Stairways
Forge - Lantern 3 for RotT
Grail - Spoiled Rich
Social - Cheerilee
1+2) Study: Moth 5 book, Lantern 4 artifact, Manehattan book, Winter 4 artifact
3) Soft Sweeps FO
4) Forge Name summoning (AP deducted pre-turn)
5) Edge Sacrament

You may notice that despite this being the cannibalism plan, there is no Grail Sacrament listed here. Well, that is because the Grail Sacrament is also a renewal price, and it does not appear to cost any AP when performed that way. Therefore, the goal of this plan is in broad strokes the same as the first, but with the addition of making sure we have a prison and a prisoner in said prison before the end of the turn so that we can take "An Invitation to Dinner" in between turns as the condition for the contract renewal.

Edit: @ses by the way, can I ask why you have exactly 442 bits as the fuel for the Forge Name?

 

[Sveta08]

.... Oh!
Something exciting to look forward to.
With the Forge name, there may be a different Forge Sacrament option!

 

[Nevermort]

That's ... a lot of assumptions made fairly quickly into a fairly standard slippery slope problem.

Listen. If you have qualms with the Grail Sacrament, that's okay! I don't blame you, it looks like cannibalism. We don't know how that will change Velvet on the far end. Well, beyond the fact that there are things she is willing to do. It's a change in mindset such as body. Soul, or something like that.

But the Knock Sacrament did not make her slither like a snake nor drip poison nor grow fangs. It will be a change. I don't think catsstrophising it over what might yet be will get us anywhere.

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Again don't read what I am saying as problem with Sacrament. I am usually fine with playing villainous quests. Some of my favorite quests are about supervillains. I think we should have started much earlier if it is the case but fine. But I am not happy to play as a villain that is ashamed of her actions and constantly comes up with excuses why this action is fine this one time, and that one stallion/mare deserved it and so on.

It is too mundane to be entertaining. So all those comments on how we can save Cadance from corruption this way fly over my head because I think that if we take Grail Sacrament we should ourself work on corrupting Cadance next. Don't be mere villain when you can be supervillain.

As for DoA Sacrament, if we are to take it as example, well one thing that her Sacrament done is released her. She is unbound. And it makes sense because why would you keep chains on your friends? So argument on how we will keep Mareinette under control this way also does not work, because why would you control actual friend?

So while Mareinette sacrament is not exactly my preference, I am more annoyed at attempt to justify it as more moral action (not by you but in general) than alternative. It is clearly villainous option, especially when contrasted with Cadance love and harmony. Even low odds of the later only make it more heroic.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Look it either 1 ponies dead and a friendly name, or 3 dead and an enemy name.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

@OurLadyOfWires Wouldn't it make more sense for the previous Harmonic rituals(Mother and Father; Childhood's End) to be here too now this section exists?

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You are saying this based on certain assumptions.

Quick question @OurLadyOfWires in regards to artifacts; are they capable of being used on the same turn we study them (by our followers), presuming the study action is successful?

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Plan as if the answer would be "no".

Because there is always a chance that (1) you fail to study the artifact, or (2) the artifact is, upon studying, somehow cursed (you guys haven't studied enough artifacts to ever trip into this small mechanic, but it is still there).

I may, if the narrative aligns and the mechanics permit, have an artifact be used the same turn it is studied. But I prefer you make your plans assuming that will not be the case to avoid making too many bets, conditionals or upsets.

Seems like Soothing the Night helps with progress on Celestia so we need to do it. @OurLadyOfWires Would doing it multiple times per turn help more?

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No, giving one order to soothe the night gives her enough time to do everything she can. (Ponies are, technically, asleep only for one third of the day anyways).

Unrelated, @OurLadyOfWires since this is in the interest of your favorite Name, would DoA or Biedde be better for kidnapping someone, in terms of what Lores and/or specialties might be invoked?

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Definitely Biedde.

DoA's +50 relates to expeditions only, and kidnapping someone is not enough of a "mini-expedition" for me to want to trigger that.

So, Biedde's Moth, personal combat, and general demeanor feels better for that.

Now for the question: @OurLadyOfWires can Influences be used to study rituals? Even though they don't work when using them?

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Yes. You can pop an influence to do research, no problems.



I do not see any more pings so I'm assuming this answers everything. Let me know if there are any other questions.

For the record, I am still tinkering with some mechanics. I have a draft of how to make the follower-given AotL more interesting, but it sounds like too much work for now.
So, for now, assume that "one follower action" can give Velvet "one AotL of any Lore". Might change that in the future, but it's good for now.
Also, remember that the only characters who can do research are Velvet herself and (exceptionally) Jade, so the short discussion about DoA doing the "Memory of the Path" action can be shelved for now.

I hope you are all doing well.



EDIT:

Oh, right, right. I forgot.

I think not enough time has passed, so I can edit this post and people will still see it.

To be very clear, about the Moods of Mareinette.

Keeping her close is an indication you ARE interested in a relationship with her. And sending her to Cadance is an indication you are not AS INTERESTED as Mareinette first assumed.

That is to say, keeping her close will not make her your BABFF instantly. And sending her away will not make her feel instantly slighted and uninterested in maintaining contact with you. But both are steps on those respective directions. They are small, first steps, but still that's where those roads lead.

There was a mention about "what each option could mean", and whether player intent/discussion would play into it. So let me be very clear that yes player intent is always important for me, but actions speak louder.

Mareinette is playing the guest game. Which, make no mistake, means she is playing and that she sees this as a game. It is up to you to either play along or not.

Like you said to Reproach, "yes, this is a joke, because the alternative is that this is serious".

So, to be clear, this is not a threat. And I am as willing to write about Mareinette bonding with Cadance as I am to you guys keeping her closer. Both are fine by me. I just want, as always, for you guys to know what you are picking.

 

[Greymere]

Definitely Biedde.

DoA's +50 relates to expeditions only, and kidnapping someone is not enough of a "mini-expedition" for me to want to trigger that.

So, Biedde's Moth, personal combat, and general demeanor feels better for that.

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Hmhm, got it. I will have to contemplate whether I am willing to skip on the Edge Sacrament in the cannibalism plan in favor of better kidnapping odds for the Grail Sacrament.

 

[Nevermort]

I do not see any more pings so I'm assuming this answers everything. Let me know if there are any other questions.

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Now that Velvet is lvl 5 in Knock what about Luna Knock 5? Is it something she can learn? Or we need to be lvl 5 in all her Lores?

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

Now that Velvet is lvl 5 in Knock what about Luna Knock 5? Is it something she can learn? Or we need to be lvl 5 in all her Lores?

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Again, please ping me. Unlike the old site, this site doesn't "mark" quotes based on my text, so I can't see at a glance if this is directed at me or not.

I saw this one out of chance, because I'm still around.

But to answer your question.

I am honestly, legitimately, still thinking about what "Follower Level 5" might entail.

No, really. The greatest perk for a follower is the re-roll at level 4, and I am not currently interested (nor do I have the bandwidth) to create individualized sacrament skills for every character. And finally, reaching a Sacrament is a "big thing" that makes sense to focus on named or important characters such as Velvet.

So for now, I do not know. And we are a bit too close to the end of the quest for me to think the effort that this will involve will be worth it.

More on that later, really. It is not a huge problem, or a great loss. Just a mechanical issue I haven't made a decision on yet.

 

[ses]

OK personally im fine defaulting to only Lunas general bonus if we fail, so I'm fine just committing

 

[Nevermort]

Look it either 1 ponies dead and a friendly name, or 3 dead and an enemy name.

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What 3 dead?

 

[Sveta08]

Hmhm, got it. I will have to contemplate whether I am willing to skip on the Edge Sacrament in the cannibalism plan in favor of better kidnapping odds for the Grail Sacrament.

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Personally? I would keep Axe as the one securing a prisoner. A general bonus of 30, Edge 3 as well. Biedde has the Moth to make it quiet. So, he would be better, but I do feel Axe should be plenty enough.

And, as an aside, pity Axe can't do research, but that makes sense. Thanks for the Heads up!

 

[Arrkhon]

Keeping her close is an indication you ARE interested in a relationship with her. And sending her to Cadance is an indication you are not AS INTERESTED as Mareinette first assumed.

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@OurLadyOfWires Theoretically, if we send her out to Cadance before doing Moth/Grail combo on earliest opportunity, how would she take it?

 

[Nevermort]

Theoretically, if we send her out to Cadance before doing Moth/Grail combo on earliest opportunity, how would she take it?

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Pleasantly surprised? Also QM asked to ping him for questions.
Edit: Maybe it would count as surprise party

 

[ses]

I don't think we can get a victim this turn regardless, not unless we already had a prison.

 

[Shaper47]

[] Plan Friendship and taking thing seriously
-[] (ALL IN) You will NOT attempt the "All In" expedition.
-[] (BIEDDE) Pursue religious goals.
-[] (MAREINETTE) You introduced her to Cadance, yes, but you are still very interested in her endeavors.
-[] (FORGE NAME) You will attempt the "Rite of Joyous (Re)Forging"
-[] (SACRIFICES) 450 bits, Wrong Key,

If we wanted to pay Biedde we should have picked the bits options beforehand.

Besides we need Biedde around to build a prison.