July 1923
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Imperator Pax
Talon Master
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July 1923
Xian's discussions ... well the public eye was somewhere else entirely than the issue that dominated in Shanghai, and Tietsin. It had only been a matter of time before the broader General Staff started adding their opinions to the talk. That Bill had not opened his study with oh the bombers will always get through had been a minor mercy. There were no Billy Mitchells in Xian, but on the other hand everyone knew who he was, and they also to a lesser extent knew Churchill's man Trenchard.
The easiest rebuttal was that aircraft could not effectively carry sufficient bombs. Until new engines became available talking of the bombers getting through was premature.
Allen put the papers aside and started to help himself to the bowl of chillied buckwheat noodles. It was not quite as hot as he would have liked it, but it was lunch, and he had a lot to do with summer here in force. Currently speaking Xian's major summer exercise entailed forty four thousand troops in the field for drill. First and Third Regiments were rotated back from their divisions divided into instructional cadres and together with second division here in force were working to familiarize National Guard units and reservists with practices and equipment.
As a result the 8th Division was shouldering much of the border duty, looking warily across the border with Szechwan. Even the 8th under Shang was getting new things the shiniest were new caterpillar excavators from Holt's company back in the states. Holt's manager had written that they had plans to merge with Best if only they could get the details worked out. The new excavators were earmarked for 8th Divisions Heavy Combat Engineer Battalion.
Holt's diesel powered excavator was excellent, though the truth was they had largely used steam engines to build the railways. Steam Excavators were maintenance intensive though and while they were coal fired the same as the railways they were just not suited to modern war. There were concerns and had been for several years now about the safety of using them in the coal mines... deep ones anyway since for surface mines they were great.
If Holt and Best merged that had a number of potential benefits... they would presumably rationalize their designs on offer, and with no war for the states in sight well Holt and Best would continue to sell old stock. That would help the MAK and the work in Liberia, and it would help here.
Just as steam power had allowed them to build the railway here, in combination with dynamite, it would facilitate other projects demand less men and for Powell that was important. Unlike here, where even though they had still used money to buy machines to make the work easier there less people and other reasons. "You think his interest in excavators is a canal?"
Griswold questioned. The engineer was wearing his day uniform, the lighter material summer uniforms for the field which while still sewed with patches weren't quite the same as the dress uniforms that most of the cadre in senior leadership roles wore daily. Then again Griswold had almost certainly spent the majority of the morning at the State Military Works.... and if not to ask about the MAK then he might well have been talking about the continued direction from a minority of the cadre to examine a 6.5 cartridge for an autoloading rifle with the aim of replacing 35 Remington.
"I'd say no, but only because I think he recognizes that its not feasible..."And the panama canal had taken so long to build. It would help probably Powell's support for a united states in central america which the state department supported, but he doubted that State's support was so enthusiastic that it would provide even the political capital for a canal... unless someone at the Navy was really worried about needing to ferry hither and to from the oceans that formed the state's first real defense.
It wasn't that the project for whic h so many men had talked about was an impossible to surmount engineering challenge. It wasn't. It was a capital, both monetary and political question to surmount. "Where are we on the submachine gun project?'
"Rationalization?" Griswold said, "Lewis already recognized we needed to go to an open bolt, and to a blow back," There were trade offs to both changes but by and large the pros outweighed the cons, "I think what we will have to do is moved to a stamped metal design. Lewis likes milling machines, the complaints we got out of 3rd were they'd take the guns and they could deal with snow up until the guns melted the snow and then they'd refreeze the action shut."
"How do we deal with that?"
"I'm working on it. I figure we need to keep the bolt from getting mud and dirt out of it as well, which is a much more year around problem than the white stuff," Griswold replied, "Other problem I see is we're going to need a robust enough magazine to feed it, especially with all the interest Yan has in the project." Yan liked Thomspons, but those were even more expensive than the Lewis Griswold 45s that they had already, and those weren't cheap relatively speaking... but Taiyuan's arsenal already manufactured 45 caliber Mauser Broom handles, which in contrast to the other provinces were the service pistols of the Shansi Gendarmes, a provincial level police force and one which employed detachable shoulder stocks. "I have someone working on that as well, and we're going to keep an eye abroad to see if anyone comes up with anything that we can use." For this or other things, that was how things worked.
"Specialist troops will need specialist weapons. Our heavy combat engineers by and large do not need to be lugging rifles, which originally we planned to do by giving everyone 20 inch Universals, but sub machineguns are possibly a better option."
Griswold gave the the man a scowl, "Not if we can't keep them working. I'm working on it." He stated, and grudgingly pulled out a series of reports, the good news is the chemical industry in Taiyuan is coming online. SMB," Shansi Machine Bureau, "is expanding ammunition production. That will help with testing, but Yan is talking about wanting a removable and or collapsing stock like his broom handles. Which, I can do, but magazines and the action. The action, I think if I can get it sealed off from the rest we can keep water or mud from getting in, but that is a tolerance and heat treatment question. I'll do what I can to keep weight down."
--
Notes: Theproblem Griswold is describing here, is he's coming from anengineering standpoint where milling is the primary manufacturingtechnique thats really where tolerance and expense comes into play.Once stamping, and forging parts can be done for the design its a lotmore simple, with a milling based most likely the way you woulddisassemble a gun like this is probably a sprign detente or catch tohold the bolt handle in. The bolt handle as in the owen gun would beconnected to an extension that operates charging of hte system butotherwise isolate the internals but again after that problem is dealtwith its getting magazines to be truly interchangeable (again this is1923 where lots of guns are still being fitted for their magazinesdespite detachable box magazines being something from post US civilwar rifles, as an interchangeable parts concept execution of the idealagged across lots of guns including the Winchester 351 caliberrifles)
On other notes I have some tentative plans to update some Jumpchain stuff over the summer but beyond this story updates are tentative at best.
Xian's discussions ... well the public eye was somewhere else entirely than the issue that dominated in Shanghai, and Tietsin. It had only been a matter of time before the broader General Staff started adding their opinions to the talk. That Bill had not opened his study with oh the bombers will always get through had been a minor mercy. There were no Billy Mitchells in Xian, but on the other hand everyone knew who he was, and they also to a lesser extent knew Churchill's man Trenchard.
The easiest rebuttal was that aircraft could not effectively carry sufficient bombs. Until new engines became available talking of the bombers getting through was premature.
Allen put the papers aside and started to help himself to the bowl of chillied buckwheat noodles. It was not quite as hot as he would have liked it, but it was lunch, and he had a lot to do with summer here in force. Currently speaking Xian's major summer exercise entailed forty four thousand troops in the field for drill. First and Third Regiments were rotated back from their divisions divided into instructional cadres and together with second division here in force were working to familiarize National Guard units and reservists with practices and equipment.
As a result the 8th Division was shouldering much of the border duty, looking warily across the border with Szechwan. Even the 8th under Shang was getting new things the shiniest were new caterpillar excavators from Holt's company back in the states. Holt's manager had written that they had plans to merge with Best if only they could get the details worked out. The new excavators were earmarked for 8th Divisions Heavy Combat Engineer Battalion.
Holt's diesel powered excavator was excellent, though the truth was they had largely used steam engines to build the railways. Steam Excavators were maintenance intensive though and while they were coal fired the same as the railways they were just not suited to modern war. There were concerns and had been for several years now about the safety of using them in the coal mines... deep ones anyway since for surface mines they were great.
If Holt and Best merged that had a number of potential benefits... they would presumably rationalize their designs on offer, and with no war for the states in sight well Holt and Best would continue to sell old stock. That would help the MAK and the work in Liberia, and it would help here.
Just as steam power had allowed them to build the railway here, in combination with dynamite, it would facilitate other projects demand less men and for Powell that was important. Unlike here, where even though they had still used money to buy machines to make the work easier there less people and other reasons. "You think his interest in excavators is a canal?"
Griswold questioned. The engineer was wearing his day uniform, the lighter material summer uniforms for the field which while still sewed with patches weren't quite the same as the dress uniforms that most of the cadre in senior leadership roles wore daily. Then again Griswold had almost certainly spent the majority of the morning at the State Military Works.... and if not to ask about the MAK then he might well have been talking about the continued direction from a minority of the cadre to examine a 6.5 cartridge for an autoloading rifle with the aim of replacing 35 Remington.
"I'd say no, but only because I think he recognizes that its not feasible..."And the panama canal had taken so long to build. It would help probably Powell's support for a united states in central america which the state department supported, but he doubted that State's support was so enthusiastic that it would provide even the political capital for a canal... unless someone at the Navy was really worried about needing to ferry hither and to from the oceans that formed the state's first real defense.
It wasn't that the project for whic h so many men had talked about was an impossible to surmount engineering challenge. It wasn't. It was a capital, both monetary and political question to surmount. "Where are we on the submachine gun project?'
"Rationalization?" Griswold said, "Lewis already recognized we needed to go to an open bolt, and to a blow back," There were trade offs to both changes but by and large the pros outweighed the cons, "I think what we will have to do is moved to a stamped metal design. Lewis likes milling machines, the complaints we got out of 3rd were they'd take the guns and they could deal with snow up until the guns melted the snow and then they'd refreeze the action shut."
"How do we deal with that?"
"I'm working on it. I figure we need to keep the bolt from getting mud and dirt out of it as well, which is a much more year around problem than the white stuff," Griswold replied, "Other problem I see is we're going to need a robust enough magazine to feed it, especially with all the interest Yan has in the project." Yan liked Thomspons, but those were even more expensive than the Lewis Griswold 45s that they had already, and those weren't cheap relatively speaking... but Taiyuan's arsenal already manufactured 45 caliber Mauser Broom handles, which in contrast to the other provinces were the service pistols of the Shansi Gendarmes, a provincial level police force and one which employed detachable shoulder stocks. "I have someone working on that as well, and we're going to keep an eye abroad to see if anyone comes up with anything that we can use." For this or other things, that was how things worked.
"Specialist troops will need specialist weapons. Our heavy combat engineers by and large do not need to be lugging rifles, which originally we planned to do by giving everyone 20 inch Universals, but sub machineguns are possibly a better option."
Griswold gave the the man a scowl, "Not if we can't keep them working. I'm working on it." He stated, and grudgingly pulled out a series of reports, the good news is the chemical industry in Taiyuan is coming online. SMB," Shansi Machine Bureau, "is expanding ammunition production. That will help with testing, but Yan is talking about wanting a removable and or collapsing stock like his broom handles. Which, I can do, but magazines and the action. The action, I think if I can get it sealed off from the rest we can keep water or mud from getting in, but that is a tolerance and heat treatment question. I'll do what I can to keep weight down."
--
Notes: Theproblem Griswold is describing here, is he's coming from anengineering standpoint where milling is the primary manufacturingtechnique thats really where tolerance and expense comes into play.Once stamping, and forging parts can be done for the design its a lotmore simple, with a milling based most likely the way you woulddisassemble a gun like this is probably a sprign detente or catch tohold the bolt handle in. The bolt handle as in the owen gun would beconnected to an extension that operates charging of hte system butotherwise isolate the internals but again after that problem is dealtwith its getting magazines to be truly interchangeable (again this is1923 where lots of guns are still being fitted for their magazinesdespite detachable box magazines being something from post US civilwar rifles, as an interchangeable parts concept execution of the idealagged across lots of guns including the Winchester 351 caliberrifles)
On other notes I have some tentative plans to update some Jumpchain stuff over the summer but beyond this story updates are tentative at best.
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