Idkusername
Versed in the lewd.
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Ok, now I know you're trolling.That's it?
I thought it was going to be something hard to get...
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Ok, now I know you're trolling.That's it?
I thought it was going to be something hard to get...
Well, if you insist.
Do you want Utilitarian or Deontological? I'll take the other.
For a lot of those six figures, it's really just that he's killed one person a LOT of times.
Remember kids, clones aren't real people.
Sincerely,
Krypton
You forgot the closing quotation mark for this sentence.
Objectively speaking, there are three reasons to imprison an individual for committing crimes against someone else, including the state.
Kinda looks like fiend armour.
No... It really isn't that hard to get...
Clones are people too! I'm fairly sure people would consider Rex to be a person despite being one of thousands of clones. At least in the fandom they would. Not sure if in-universe they considered them people. Bad example, but Roy and his clone are two separate people in this story!For a lot of those six figures, it's really just that he's killed one person a LOT of times.
Remember kids, clones aren't real people.
Sincerely,
Krypton
Clones are people too! I'm fairly sure people would consider Rex to be a person despite being one of thousands of clones. At least in the fandom they would. Not sure if in-universe they considered them people. Bad example, but Roy and his clone are people in this story!
All the more sad then about 66The Jedi, well most of them, considered the clones to be people.
I wonder if he'll notice that the President may be a robotic doppelganger? Because that was a plot point the Renegade dealt with some time earlier. Or was that on Justice Lords Earth? The joy of long, long runners.25th June 2012
10:33 GMT -5
I haven't really met President Jonathan Horne before.
It's amusing that Renegade and Paragon mirror each other in so many ways. One is a family man bachelor, the other's dating but with no plans for kids. One is close to their League, the other is.. less so. At least both are on good terms with their Teams... One refuses to modify himself for relatively odd reasons, the other hit the power-up button with his face repeatedly... And they support opposing Presidential Candidates.Oh, we spoke very briefly at the ceremony marking the signing into law of the Sophoncy Recognition Act, but… I can't vote in American elections, I can't be arrested and I work at a job that's been treated as being 'outside' of the law for the past seventy years. I know his Republican challenger Senator Henry Knight rather better, and… Friendly as he's being, empathic vision shows exactly how little he actually cares about any of the causes he claims to champion moment to moment. Jonathan Horne is a good deal more genuine, but…
To be honest, if you actually went by those names, it would probably feel even sillier. I suppose in some translations you technically would be.If I was American? I'd be voting Ron.
Still, despite the country being in the middle of a low-intensity war on its home territory, he was willing to meet with Crazy-Orange-Snake Man and Dresses-Like-a-Bat Man at very short notice. Which is just as well, because I'm going to have to arrange a lot of these meetings-
I'm guessing this is tied to Sivana's request, isn't it? To be fair, I don't see much opposition to whatever he asks just for the chance to unlock the toy cabinet of Earth Bullshit Science."Batman? Orange Lantern? The President will see you now.
-today.
Magog! Long time no see, Mr Cable-lookalike. Well, i suppose he doesn't look like that... Yet.We follow the presidential aide into one of bunker's meeting rooms, and I note with approval that in addition to the Secret Service agents on duty there are also a couple of Atlantean wizards and… Lance Corporal Reid, staff in hand. I suppose that's about as covered as they can get, though to be honest 'Specialist Lance' isn't all that threatening without his god-tier upgrade.
<Points to eyes, then to Father Time> Honestly, OL, I'm amazed the name didn't jog some memory of crazy shit. Just being here is a worry. Is SHADE really that powerful, or is it because of the Sheeda thing? Is Adam Frankenstein lurking somewhere, or is he off hunting Sheeda?President Horne is sitting at a table with… Father Time, General Lane and a few politicians whose names and faces flicker through my mind as my rings fill me in. I'm… Having trouble reading Father Time, but the emotions of everyone else appear to be in line with what I'd expect from serious, disciplined professionals.
Batman walks to the end of the table opposite the president and remains standing, so I follow his lead and fall in next to him. Horne nods politely.
A glance that some of the sharper minds around the table will have picked up on. I wonder how that'll play."Gentlemen. I'm sorry if things are a little rushed, but I'm sure we're all very busy right now. You said this was urgent?"
Batman glances at me, and I take that as my cue.
...Doesn't do things by halves, does ol' Tad? I suppose subtlety is not a Sivana family watchword..."Yes, Mister President. As quickly as I can, last year I was invited by Doctor Beautia Sivana to her annual family gathering. While there I met Doctor Thaddeus Bodog Sivana-"
A couple of Cabinet Secretaries twitch. I think he once tried to use one of them as a nuclear suicide bomber.
Hopefully not too large or detailed. That could be a lot of reading if Thaffeus Senior has been... Inspired."-and heard him decide to redirect his efforts from fighting superheroes to fighting the Sheeda. I've been keeping tabs on him since, and he's done more or less what he said he was going to. His younger children Thaddeus Sivana Junior and Georgia Sivana have been doing the same. He's given me records of the actions he's taken in this regard and I've…"
I take paper copies of the summaries out of subspace and deposit them in front of them.
And there's the number one opponent to convince. I doubt he's going to like relying on 'a crackpot inventor', much less a known murderer."Confirmed these as best I can. He's been clear with me, however, that he's not trying to beat the Sheeda so much as see how much of an intellectual challenge they can present him with. When I remonstrated with him on that point he said that he was willing to go on the offensive, but that he'd want something in return."
General Lane's eyes narrow.
...Huh. That doesn't sound all that bad. I mean, if OL makes the point clear that if Horne signs off on it, Sivana's tech cloud end this conflict in days, if not hours, it might be an easy choice to make. No doubt it won't be that easy."And what might that be?"
"A pardon, for him and his two younger children."
A reminder: End the conflict in days, if not hours, General.
That's going to be a sticking point, isn't it?"I'm reporting what he told me. If you mean, 'is he serious', yes, I believe so. The only thing he wants more than he wants to continue to practice mad science on the innocent people of the world is to get back together with his ex-wife."
"He a mass murderer."
...Okay, not quite as easy. Though Sivana hasn't committed many crimes outside US jurisdiction has he? I suspect most diplomats would simply go, "He can end this fight quickly? We can sign off on a pardon, no problems!""Yes, General. In addition, every country on the planet has to pardon him for it to 'count'."
The Director of National Intelligence shuffles in his seat, takes a deep breath in and out and raises and lowers his eyebrows.
No doubt booby-trapped to prevent any curious engineers working with them from poking around. Sivana may be a little crazy, but he is not stupid."That's… A lot. And… What exactly would we get in return?"
"Weapons that can destroy every Sheeda creature and abomination we've seen so far. Technology to block their portals, detect and board their ships and a type of energy shield that nullified their preferred range weapons. Use of robotic soldiers that come with all of that built in, plus access to his entire back catalogue of weapons and equipment if there's something you think might be helpful."
Thinking of launching a little military operation to capture him, General? That could be tough.Lane leans forward, his eyes wide and focused on me.
"And you know where this guy is?"
I mean, it's not like Sivana's the only person he's working to reform...
Something which I bet many of them didn't know about. And the fact it didn't happen on Earth is probably a mitigating factor."Are there any other mass murderers you've been talking to?"
"None pertinent to the ongoing Harrowing, though my personal kill count is in at least six figures."
I don't doubt they had agents everywhere. Thaddeus Senior did say he's been busy dealing with infiltrators and the like.That causes a few flashes of unease, and I.. consider that I don't actually send reports to either the US government or the Security Council. Or the Themysciran senate or Queen Hippolyta. I've.. never checked what the League passes on about team activities or the activities of team members. Given that Batman has used us as a Charter bypass on more than one occasion, probably not that much.
Horne leafs through the dossier, breathing slowly but deeply. He looks… Shrivelled, frankly. "I… See the Sheeda had agents in the Security Council."
Probably as soon as he takes receipt of the pardons. Do not underestimate the power of SCIENCE!"There have been spine riders on Earth for at least the last century. Probably longer. Airport security doesn't include magic scans."
"How..?" He pushes to dossier away slightly. "How.. long would it take Doctor Sivana to get his technology into the field?"
And this is where ignoring the plot threads to raise relationship values with him kicks you in the ass."He already field-tested the robots in New Zealand. Two platoons and a long-range teleporter are ready to go now. Most of the technology is ready to go now; he builds it, tests it, then sticks it on a shelf while he works on the next thing."
Horne looks me in the eyes. He… Looks genuinely sad.
To be fair, he can whistle up that data instantly, as soon as he wants to. Power Rings are Awesome. But that's not what he means, is it now?"Do you know how many people he's killed? Or tried to kill?"
"Yes."
Yeah, I don't doubt they have a lot of vengeful thoughts towards the man. And no amount of 'But he's useful to the government' will lessen that."Do you think we should take this deal?"
I could say that his kill count -while significant- is less than seven billion. I could say that after years of everyone failing to take one mad scientist off the table he's offering to take himself off. I… Know that now I could say it to the families of his victims, and I know that they'd never accept that rationale.
Hopefully he agrees. There's a lot of lives hanging in the balance. And even if he has a moral opposition to Sivana going unpunished, he can't overlook that fact... A big, sticky ol' moral quagmire for him."Yes."
"Thank you for bringing this to my attention." His eyes dip back to the dossier. "You're going to be talking to other heads of state?" I nod. "I'll need to discuss this with people before making a decision. You'll know before the end of the day."
Ultimately, Sivana's name isn't too widely known to the public except as a supervillian with a bodycount. If the full tally of his bodycount gets mooted about, this would hurt his re-election chances a lot.
"He's a mass murderer."
Objectively speaking, there are three reasons to imprison an individual for committing crimes against someone else, including the state.
The first is to keep the remainder of society safe by removing elements perceived as dangerous from the common pool of humanity so that they cannot continue with their crimes and hurt more people/property/etc...
The second is punishment. It sets a good behavioral precedent to see someone who has done something society perceives as 'wrong' having liberties taken away from them and serves as a warning to others that the same might befall them if they choose to transgress against the law.
The third is rehabilitation. Taking someone who commits a crime and turning them into someone who does not commit crimes by rehabilitating them returns people who would otherwise be disruptive to society back into the pool of constructive citizens.
No, I think those are fine.maybe 'into law the Sophoncy'
maybe remove one of those 'wants' , make it 'he wants more than to continue'
Thank you, corrected.
No... It really isn't that hard to get...
Pretty much every government on Earth has excused more for less then Sivana is offering.
The survival of the human race and civilization is at stake, countries have pardoned mass murderers for less.
There are upwards of 170 countries, and as it is they rarely agree unanimously on anything, ever, and this is as controversial as it gets. You'd have much better luck trying help Sisyphus with his rock.
Plus, people are stupid.
I wonder if he'll notice that the President may be a robotic doppelganger? Because that was a plot point the Renegade dealt with some time earlier. Or was that on Justice Lords Earth? The joy of long, long runners.
It's amusing that Renegade and Paragon mirror each other in so many ways. One is a family man bachelor, the other's dating but with no plans for kids. One is close to their League and Team, the other is.. not. One refuses to modify himself for relatively odd reasons, the other hit the power-up button with his face repeatedly... And they support opposing Presidential Candidates.
<Points to eyes, then to Father Time> Honestly, OL, I'm amazed the name didn't jog some memory of crazy shit. Just being here is a worry. Is SHADE really that powerful, or is it because of the Sheeda thing? Is Adam Frankenstein lurking somewhere, or is he off hunting Sheeda?
...Okay, not quite as easy. Though Sivana hasn't committed many crimes outside US jurisdiction has he? I suspect most diplomats would simply go, "He can end this fight quickly? We can sign off on a pardon, no problems!"
Something which I bet many of them didn't know about. And the fact it didn't happen on Earth is probably a mitigating factor.
Well, this is going to trigger a few debates, both in-story and out. Let's hope they stay civil. As for in-universe, I have to wonder just how widely known Dr. Sivana Senior is? I mean, Fawcett City, sure, he's probably a big name there. Elsewhere, though? I suspect if this goes public, some people will call for the pardon, just on the fact he claims to be able to drive off the Sheeda... On the other hand... G. Gordon Godfrey and people like him are going to have lots of anti-superhuman rhetorical ammunition.
My father taught law and lectured me on these points, so yeah, I know the specifics, but I didn't feel like giving a full thesis-level post and decided they can be lumped together for the purposes of discussing here and now. Also, from a personal standpoint, I disagree with retributive punishment as a foundational element for jailing individuals.#2 is actually 2 separate ones, utilitarian punishment (show what happens to people who break the rules to prevent others from doing so) and retributive punishment (you are punished for doing a bad thing). This is making me twitch because I'm currently pulling my very first all-nighter ever for my 1L year and we've gone over this in criminal law a lot.
Most of those 170 countries are of the singular leader type.There are upwards of 170 countries, and as it is they rarely agree unanimously on anything, ever, and this is as controversial as it gets. You'd have much better luck trying help Sisyphus with his rock.
Plus, people are stupid.
Those Nazi scientists that helped with the moon landing come to mind.
Operation Paperclip, what a ride.
If only they'd treated them like they did.The Jedi, well most of them, considered the clones to be people.
By Sivana standards, that was....Doesn't do things by halves, does ol' Tad? I suppose subtlety is not a Sivana family watchword...
To be fair to Horne, he doesn't care about that.Ultimately, Sivana's name isn't too widely known to the public except as a supervillian with a bodycount. If the full tally of his bodycount gets mooted about, this would hurt his re-election chances a lot.
He's not a household name across the world, but then neither was Napier until then Injustice League thing.Well, this is going to trigger a few debates, both in-story and out. Let's hope they stay civil. As for in-universe, I have to wonder just how widely known Dr. Sivana Senior is? I mean, Fawcett City, sure, he's probably a big name there. Elsewhere, though? I suspect if this goes public, some people will call for the pardon, just on the fact he claims to be able to drive off the Sheeda... On the other hand... G. Gordon Godfrey and people like him are going to have lots of anti-superhuman rhetorical ammunition.
Thank you, corrected.
...And? What does that have to do with anything? That is meant for swift an decisive executive decisions in times of crisis - which this is, no doubt - but there stance will generally reflect that of their government, given by your arguments, most of them are their government, and that's generally true even for those that aren't.Most of those 170 countries are of the singular leader type.
And of those that aren't, most are like the US in that they have provisions for a singular leader to make unilateral decisions in the case of national emergencies.
They weren't pardoned.
In fact one Operation Paperclip scientist was extradited to Germany to stand trial. He was acquitted because of lack of evidence.
Come now... There's no need to cast doubt on how prolific the good doctor has been. Why must you insult his work so?One down, a few more hundred to go... Although I suspect most countries actually don't have a, what, a warrant for Sivana's arrest. So maybe just a few dozen more...
And forbade cloning.They did apparently make them legal citizens after a while, at least from what I remember in this story.
*gags* Hopefully we won't see much of that on screen.