With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Chojin Patriarch · Jan 9, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
5th July 2012
11:08 GMT +3

Natasa nods uncertainly.

"I'm… I.. can raise the shades of any who exist in Lord Hades' halls, which includes the shades of those who are not human. The shade of those housed elsewhere would require negotiations with their God of the Dead."

Of course, some of said Gods may have opinions on trying to do anything with the souls of the dead. We've seen how the Silver City reacts, for a start.

"What if they don't have one?"

"Then… With the head of their pantheon. Unless they have reincarnated."

Bet that makes Necromancy a hell of a lot more complicated. Reincarnated souls are probably off-limits period, but you might be able to arrange to speak to a shade of their previous life, maybe?

"Is there..? If someone-. If a soul is reincarnated, is there a record of where they went? The fact that they were reborn?"

"Lord Hades keeps such records, as do the gods of the Hindus. For other pantheons, I do not know."

Ah, paperwork. Even in the afterlife, there's no escaping it...

"How about if they don't have a religious belief?"

"The.. a-li-ens whom you brought to Lord Hades did not worship him in life. Is that what you meant?"

Uh, no... Though that makes an interesting wrinkle. What happens if the Gods of those dead extra-terrestrials hears about their passing and comes looking (admittedly belatedly.)

Would Hades be obliged to hand them over, or is it more a case of finders-keepers?

Unsurprisingly, Ancient Greek doesn't have a word for 'space aliens'. Even in English, 'alien' literally just means 'not from around here'. Alan generally says 'space aliens' when I'd just say 'aliens', but for the Amazons just calling then xénos wouldn't make sense. They call Greeks from the mainland xénos. In fact, that's what they usually use the word for; other nationalities are referred to by their name. The sudden need for a word to refer to people and things from a little further afield than Crete led to the Amazons mugging a leaf out of English's book and stealing a loan word.

Something that may well keep happening if the Themyscirans continue to forge ties to the outside world. I mean, lots of words do have roots in greek or latin... But there are concepts the ancient languages just never could have imagined...

"No. When their souls were left on Ater Clementia, just drifting around."

"Yes, that would be easy. Even if they did not want to speak with me, I could certainly identify them."

Not quite so easy when it comes to Martians... I mean, H'ron'meer isn't actually a god, nor are any of the other venerated beings, are they? What even happens when a Martian dies? Where does their soul go?

"Could you tell if they'd died and been reincarnated?"

"If I could find their body. I am… I know the rites, but-" She shakes her head. "-there is little call for them on Themyscira. I do not know that I have the skills you want."

Joy of not needing such skills before now. I mean, if an Amazon wanted to go talk to the soul of a loved one, well, it's just a decent walk down to Hades' visiting room, if they're that desperate...

"Would you be willing to try?"

"Yes-. Wait. Where do you wish me to try?"

Should have found that out before agreeing. But I can excuse her naivete, she's only known the island all her life, hasn't she?

"Mars."

She frowns. "Ares?" Then she smiles. "Is he dead? Did you and the Princess kill him?"

I suppose the Themyscirans like the Roman god of War as much as they like the Greek... That is to say, not much at all?

"No. And not the Roman deity either. The planet."

"Another world?"

Quite the trip, yes. Just imagine the story you'll have to tell the others, though. First... Er, Second Themysciran to leave Earth (Diana being the first, of course.)

"You are.. familiar with the idea that-."

"Yes, I-. Know. I…" She looks around the temple, probably as an excuse to not look at me. "Haven't.. left Themyscira."

It is quite the idea to take in, you know. Imagine living in one small town all your life, knowing nothing beyond the county line, except maybe in stories. Everywhere else is just 'over there', nothing you need to worry about unless something is very wrong...

"In over three thousand years?"

"In the entire two thousand eight hundred and seventy three years of my life. I was born here."

Quite literally the small town girl (for a given definition of small, given that Themyscira has maybe 35,000 people.)

"The door to New York has been there for-."

"A few more of my sisters have requested initiation into the mysteries of the Cult Hades, thanks to your efforts at changing the way we are perceived. But with Thana away, I am the senior priestess."

Ah, so she's stuck doing all the little rituals Thana usually took care of. I mean, it's probably exciting, she likely never expected to be in charge...

"Given how infrequently Amazons die, and how cheerful Lord Hades is at the moment, I'm pretty sure you could get away for a few hours."

"If I refuse, will you drag me out of the temple to… Fondle in the way you did Thana?"

What stories have been coming back from out there? I don't really remember any 'fondling' going on. Certainly nothing Jade might object to.

"Will I need to? DO you want me to? Shoving people out of their ruts is a devotional act for me."

She looks away, clearing her throat.

Not that kind of 'Rut' folks. Remember what he said yesterday about upsetting dysfunctional systems?

"That will not be necessary. I will accompany you to.. Mars. Will there..? Be other people around?"

"Um. We can go somewhere without other people if you prefer? Most of the Martians I've met have been fairly nice."

Nearly anywhere on the surface, for instance. Maybe somewhere in sight of Olympus Mons, perhaps? Then she can claim to have seen an Olympus...

"Perhaps if I could just… View them from a distance?"

I hold out my left hand. "I can manage that."

Field trip! Wouldn't she need a few ritual tools, though? Or can OL just fabricate what she might need?

She regards my hand for a moment, then takes it. Some Amazons like seeing their home from far above. Io adjusted to being away fairly quickly, but while Thana adjusted to her own company as part of the job it looks like Natasa picked a job that didn't involve being around people because that how she prefers it.

Each to their own. Not like Themyscira is short on… Whatever the medieval version of a shut-in is.

I suspect most Amazons like to go off on their own every once in a while. After all, how many of us could stand being around the same people, day in, day out for that long?

"Ready? " She nods. "Three, t-"

Transition.

"-wo, and we're here."

"...That was it? I had expected something more.. impressive."

Natasa looks around at the desolate panorama surrounding us, then tilts her head back to take in the giant telekinetic pillars that are just about the only decoration on this part of the Martian surface.

"So we're looking for the shade of a wizard called 'Karmang'. He's from a very long time ag-"

...Give her a second to take it in, OL. You know, take in the sight, breathe the air (so to speak, since she's probably in an environmental field right now), realise the sky is a different colour.

"I'm on.. another world."

"-o. Yes, I did say."

Ah, OL. When did this sort of thing become mundane for you? Honestly, being able to teleport across the universe has taken all the awe out of life for you, hasn't it?

"Yes." She looks down at the ground. "This land… It even feels dead."

"It is. The locals live underground, aside from a few areas they're replanting. You specified 'isolated', so-."

'Dead' as in lifeless wasteland, I take it, given that Mars is almost as thaumically lively as Earth.

"I appreciate your consideration. If the spirit of Karmang is willing to speak with me, this will be quick. Otherwise I must simply call… How long ago did he die?"

"He's the founder of modern Martian society. He might even be amongst the first generation of modern Martians."

Hmm... Would the very much alive Karmang feel such an open call? Or would some shade hear it and see a chance for mayhem upon the living? Hells, how many ghosts wander Mars, I wonder?

Or could there be some long-forgotten Burner gods drifting in the breeze, long forgotten by the modern population...

"And how are modern Martians distinguished from ancient Martians?"

"Ancient Martians spend their entire life on fire."

Kind of noticeable, if their shades are as incendiary as they were in life...

"I will.. bear that in mind."

"I could build a small shrine here if that would help?"

OL, sometimes, you need to stop helping, before you slip into 'HALPING!' territory... I know it's hard, but try...

"No, Pavlos, alienating the local gods would not make calling one of their own back into the material world easier. Please, simply remain quiet for a time."

Especially if, as I theorised, any of the Burner's gods are still hanging around. They probably lean a lot more on the 'angry smiting' side of the equation.

Which I.. do. Perhaps it's unfair of me, perhaps a product of the fact that I didn't grow up on Themyscira, but if given the choice between a scholar and a cleric, I'll go with the scholar every time. The Professor of Post-Mortem Communications the Regent introduced me to would probably still be more reliable, but he said that he'd want to study the entire thaumosphere in detail before trying anything. Whereas a Themysciran priestess could try right away with a fair chance of success. The Professor is still my backup option if this doesn't work, but if the Council reach a decision before the shield goes down then I can't-.

'Post-Mortem Communications'?

Does he happen to be skinny, wear a dark robe and sport a pasty white complexion (Or at least affect the same?) Such a blatant Pratchett reference...

"Pavlos?"

"Got something?"

...That was quick. Or did she get the necromantic equivalent of 'The number you have dialled is not in service'?

Natasa frowns thoughtfully at me.

"This may be a strange question, but are you certain that 'Karmang' is amongst the dead?"

If you'll excuse the exuberance: "Awwww Sheeit, niggah!" That's one heck of a bomb to end on!

Well, not quite an explosion, but that's quite the bomb to drop on OL. It just got a lot easier to get Karmang's opinion, but also a lot harder, because if the Martian in question has been paying attention, he'll have plenty of protections from scrying in place. Also, the whole 'OL opposing the Hyperclan' bit from awhile back...

Katillno said:
So ya thinking about rereading this fic for fun and since my memories of a lot of the early and mid stuff is fuzzy but the size is just so daunting the fact that this fic has me of all people saying that is praise worthy

Personally, I'd try to go through an episode or two at a time, then take a break. Let them settle in to the memory and all that. I wish I had the time to continue my re-read (and like-bombing of the Story-Only thread!) but so many other fics call out to be read...

Mr Zoat · Jan 9, 2021

Itypeslow said:
This is an amusing image, kind of like animal chained to the drums

Darko said:
'that's how'
maybe 'reaches'

Thank you, corrected.

Darko said:
This sentence feels weird.

maybe 'they were just drifting'

No, that's correct. Consider: 'They were in a car, just driving around.'

Fellow said:
You'd be surprised by how fast you can go through it. I've re-read it three times now, though I do skim parts that I didn't particularly enjoy.

Really?

Darko · Jan 9, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
Uh, no... Though that makes an interesting wrinkle. What happens if the Gods of those dead extra-terrestrials hears about their passing and comes looking (admittedly belatedly.) Would Hades be obliged to hand them over, or is it more a case of finders-keepers?

He may give them back if their god comes calling.

Mr Zoat said:
"I will not take those who are sworn to another god. But..." His eyes unfocus as he extends his hands towards the gate. "I will accept."

Chojin Patriarch said:
Not quite so easy when it comes to Martians... I mean, H'ron'meer isn't actually a god, nor are any of the other venerated beings, are they? What even happens when a Martian dies? Where does their soul go?

Either they reincarnate, are absorbed in the magic fields of Mars, or there may be some kind of afterlife, but no god in it.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Should have found that out before agreeing. But I can excuse her naivete, she's only known the island all her life, hasn't she?

If she was born before they came to the island then she'd have known it for a large part of her life.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I suppose the Themyscirans like the Roman god of War as much as they like the Greek... That is to say, not much at all?

Mars may not be as bad as Ares.

I think Vulcan mentioned he was nicer than Ares, but he didn't bathe all that much.

Chojin Patriarch said:
What stories have been coming back from out there? I don't really remember any 'fondling' going on. Certainly nothing Jade might object to.

Paul once lifted Thana in his arms and kissed her as a sort of tribute to Eris.

Chojin Patriarch said:
'Post-Mortem Communications'? Does he happen to be skinny, wear a dark robe and sport a pasty white complexion (Or at least affect the same?) Such a blatant Pratchett reference...

I think Zoat will surprise us an make the guy be a tall, tanned and well built guy that likes wearing bright clothing.

fluffy · Jan 9, 2021

Katillno said:
So ya thinking about rereading this fic for fun and since my memories of a lot of the early and mid stuff is fuzzy but the size is just so daunting the fact that this fic has me of all people saying that is praise worthy

I wish you luck. Perhaps along the way you could make a chart of events of some sort, a spreadsheet perhaps.

Stsword · Jan 9, 2021

Darko said:
Either they reincarnate, are absorbed in the magic fields of Mars, or there may be some kind of afterlife, but no god in it.

Or retire to the Moon.

A Vertigo series revealed that the Moon is Alien Soul Florida.

Why exactly the Moon is so popular that alien souls migrate there to play canasta and gripe about the grandkids was sadly not mentioned.

Darko · Jan 9, 2021

Stsword said:
Or retire to the Moon.

A Vertigo series revealed that the Moon is Alien Soul Florida.

Why exactly the Moon is so popular that alien souls migrate there to play canasta and gripe about the grandkids was sadly not mentioned.

What series is this?

Agent Orange · Jan 9, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
Would Hades be obliged to hand them over, or is it more a case of finders-keepers?

They settle the deal over a game of poker. Using the souls in question as cards naturally.

Darko · Jan 9, 2021

Agent Orange said:
They settle the deal over a game of poker. Using the souls in question as cards naturally.

I think they'd use the souls as chips, while using gravestones as cards.

DrThoth · Jan 9, 2021

I'm being inspired by Stranger In A Strange Land in this line of thought, but maybe dead Martians, at least the magic-users, have worked out their own version of New God ascension and become spiritual entities or divinities in their own right. After all, lots of gods in real-life history have been deified former humans (possibly even the case in-universe sometimes; canon season 3 Nabu might qualify). Maybe we'll meet H'ronmeer who'll be the first modern Martian to have died.

Natasa asking about the differences between ancient and modern Martians, presumably to refine her searching efforts, raises the worrying possibility of resurrecting or calling the spirits of deceased Burning Martians, which hopefully can be avoided.

Besides the Sorcerer-Priests of canon Young Justice, has Mars ever had magic-users or traditions in other DC comics and adaptations? I think I read that the New 52 J'onn was created by Martian blood magic from a bunch of regular Martians, but I'm not sure.

Darko · Jan 9, 2021

DrThoth said:
I'm being inspired by Stranger In A Strange Land in this line of thought, but maybe dead Martians, at least the magic-users, have worked out their own version of New God ascension and become spiritual entities or divinities in their own right. After all, lots of gods in real-life history have been deified former humans (possibly even the case in-universe sometimes; canon season 3 Nabu might qualify). Maybe we'll meet H'ronmeer who'll be the first modern Martian to have died.

Natasa asking about the differences between ancient and modern Martians, presumably to refine her searching efforts, raises the worrying possibility of resurrecting or calling the spirits of deceased Burning Martians, which hopefully can be avoided.

Besides the Sorcerer-Priests of canon Young Justice, has Mars ever had magic-users or traditions in other DC comics and adaptations? I think I read that the New 52 J'onn was created by Martian blood magic from a bunch of regular Martians, but I'm not sure.

The n52 had some blood magic, yeah.

J'onn's brother used it to empower him by killing other Martians.

The issue in which Karmang appeared in he was described as a former scientist that went crazy and became a magician.

Agent Orange · Jan 9, 2021

Darko said:
a former scientist that went crazy and became a magician.

Is going crazy a side-effect of switching classes late in the campaign or just an artifact of being a scientist in DC?

Darko · Jan 9, 2021

Agent Orange said:
Is going crazy a side-effect of switching classes late in the campaign or just an artifact of being a scientist in DC?

Given what we've seen of DC scientists and how they turn out, the second idea may have some merit.

Chaoswind · Jan 9, 2021

Fellow said:
You'd be surprised by how fast you can go through it. I've re-read it three times now, though I do skim parts that I didn't particularly enjoy.

I have done it seven times, but as the fic gets longer the act of doing it again becomes more daunting. I read it five times from start to end when the fic was in SB (the end was different every time), then two more when it was in SV, I haven't done it since the move to QQ probably because I am not following the fic only thread in here thus have not been tempted to start over on page one. Also I am not reading as much anymore, not enough time to read new things and re read old ones, I have a backlog of fics that I am "following" and yet not reading.

Mr Zoat · Jan 9, 2021

DrThoth said:
Maybe we'll meet H'ronmeer who'll be the first modern Martian to have died.

No, the Martian death rate actually dropped after the first batch of disciples took control of the early cavern-settlements. Before that the Martians were having to learn everything by trial and error.

Chaoswind said:
I have done it seven times, but as the fic gets longer the act of doing it again becomes more daunting. I read it five times from start to end when the fic was in SB (the end was different every time), then two more when it was in SV, I haven't done it since the move to QQ probably because I am not following the fic only thread in here thus have not been tempted to start over on page one. Also I am not reading as much anymore, not enough time to read new things and re read old ones, I have a backlog of fics that I am "following" and yet not reading.

Chaoswind · Jan 9, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
No, the Martian death rate actually dropped after the first batch of disciples took control of the early cavern-settlements. Before that the Martians were having to learn everything by trial and error.

Broke ass college student with limited venues of entertainment, then broke ass college graduate. Then I took an opportunity to join a minor branch of security forces for the government (IT position and nepotism helped me secure the job) and here I am.

It's far less impressive than you think the first re reads happened when the fic was probably at less that forty percent its current size.

King of Frost · Jan 9, 2021

Katillno said:
So ya thinking about rereading this fic for fun and since my memories of a lot of the early and mid stuff is fuzzy but the size is just so daunting the fact that this fic has me of all people saying that is praise worthy

I've read through the series in it's entirety two or three times, took me a few weeks each time since I couldn't remain focused on it constantly like I was when I first read through everything.

Laundromat2.0 · Jan 9, 2021

LMAO as far as Martian society is concerned Paul is just there to show up every few year and flip over every preconceived belief they hold precious. NOT ONLY is the basis of their entire social hierarchy flawed, not only is the surface habitable now, but also Martian-Jesus never died.

I'd be afraid to read his mind next time he comes, just in case there's something else.

DrThoth · Jan 9, 2021

I've probably asked this a couple of times already, but my memory is terrible, sorry. Does Renegade have plans to kill construct-Nabu? I assume he still has ethical concerns about that, even if he went back to assimilation with the resurrected Klarion. There's risk of a potential backlash from Order, I suppose, but given how many Lords of Chaos they've been dispatching I imagine he feels like he could handle it.

Darko · Jan 9, 2021

DrThoth said:
I've probably asked this a couple of times already, but my memory is terrible, sorry. Does Renegade have plans to kill construct-Nabu? I assume he still has ethical concerns about that, even if he went back to assimilation with the resurrected Klarion. There's risk of a potential backlash from Order, I suppose, but given how many Lords of Chaos they've been dispatching I imagine he feels like he could handle it.

I remember him not liking the fact that he may have been causing him to suffer.

I think it was after Darkseid came to visit.

But that's all I remember.

DrThoth · Jan 9, 2021

Darko said:
I remember him not liking the fact that he may have been causing him to suffer.

I think it was after Darkseid came to visit.

But that's all I remember.

He was actually feeling bad about it far earlier, when he was asking Nabu for information to prepare to ambush/assassinate Klarion. Notably, this was back when he was generally willing to assimilate anyone and didn't have qualms about Bane and Sportsmaster. After the whole encounter with Darkseid and his change of heart, he got rid of Bane and Sportsmaster. Now he does still have the leaders of the Light as constructs because they're useful or potentially useful sources of information, and Nabu is certainly a very useful construct to have, but I do think that morally he might feel differently about him (And he makes the Light constructs sit still and write memoirs rather than actively commanding them in the world). Certainly I think Mister Zatara would have expressed more moral concerns and reservation than he's had so far (though the Justice League of Young Justice not being the best in terms of moral probity would hardly be egregious, so I can roll with it).

Darko · Jan 9, 2021

DrThoth said:
He was actually feeling bad about it far earlier, when he was asking Nabu for information to prepare to ambush/assassinate Klarion. Notably, this was back when he was generally willing to assimilate anyone and didn't have qualms about Bane and Sportsmaster. After the whole encounter with Darkseid and his change of heart, he got rid of Bane and Sportsmaster. Now he does still have the leaders of the Light as constructs because they're useful or potentially useful sources of information, and Nabu is certainly a very useful construct to have, but I do think that morally he might feel differently about him (And he makes the Light constructs sit still and write memoirs rather than actively commanding them in the world). Certainly I think Mister Zatara would have expressed more moral concerns and reservation than he's had so far (though the Justice League of Young Justice not being the best in terms of moral probity would hardly be egregious, so I can roll with it).

Yeah, the fact the Zatara has so far shown no discomfort in using an enslaved being does feel kinda weird.

Galacticplumber · Jan 9, 2021

Darko said:
Yeah, the fact the Zatara has so far shown no discomfort in using an enslaved being does feel kinda weird.

Not as weird as seeing paragon's version of Zatara react to waking up with the helmet with mild upset and surprise at being freed from normal Nabu. Or nobody noticing the enslaved g-elves as enslaved. Point is characters don't seem to really care about that here. Not without having it pointed out at least.

Darko · Jan 9, 2021

Galacticplumber said:
Not as weird as seeing paragon's version of Zatara react to waking up with the helmet with mild upset and surprise at being freed from normal Nabu. Or nobody noticing the enslaved g-elves as enslaved. Point is characters don't seem to really care about that here. Not without having it pointed out at least.

I think Zatara got used to Nabu controlling him and may have even thought it was a good thing since as he mentioned, Nabu managed to do more good than he ever did.

Laundromat2.0 · Jan 9, 2021

Darko said:
I think Zatara got used to Nabu controlling him and may have even thought it was a good thing since as he mentioned, Nabu managed to do more good than he ever did.

I also thought his reaction was very weird, but now that I'm thinking it through, I think it should be some form of Stockholm Syndrome. I mean, if you can learn to become emotionally dependant on your kidnapper, I can't even imagine what would happen to someone who had their body controlled for months. The human mind doesn't always have the most... rational response to being in the power of one's captors.

Coda · Jan 9, 2021

Laundromat2.0 said:
I also thought his reaction was very weird, but now that I'm thinking it through, I think it should be some form of Stockholm Syndrome. I mean, if you can learn to become emotionally dependant on your kidnapper, I can't even imagine what would happen to someone who had their body controlled for months. The human mind doesn't always have the most... rational response to being in the power of one's captors.

Except it isn't exactly irrational. It would be irrational to choose to endure trauma with no expectation that it will ever end. It is, at some level, quite rational to adapt to the circumstances so that the day-to-day experience becomes less traumatic. That your conclusions at that time aren't consistent with the conclusions of the counterfactual version of you that wasn't experiencing the trauma is... little more than a philosophical consideration.

Mr Zoat · Jan 9, 2021

Renegade-Zatanna isn't appalled by construct-Nabu because... How it works now is now everyone assumed that it already worked.

DrThoth · Jan 9, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
Renegade-Zatanna isn't appalled by construct-Nabu because... How it works now is now everyone assumed that it already worked.

I'm not sure what you mean, exactly. I haven't reread the original segment where Renegade assimilates Nabu but I think Zatara seemed well aware what he was signing up for, and he knows that's different from his current scenario. And Wonder Woman and Red Tornado should probably know the difference as well.

Darko · Jan 9, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
Renegade-Zatanna isn't appalled by construct-Nabu because... How it works now is now everyone assumed that it already worked.

I think the fact that Nabu seems to be in pain due to his speech would indicate that all is not well.

Also the fact renegade is known as having mind control methods and the Orange symbol is now on the Helm would also indicate that he's probably not like he was before.

Granted the YJ League and Team has made some pretty dumb assumptions before, but even this seems like too much.

transhumansage · Jan 9, 2021

dun dun duuuuunnnnnnnn....

Mr Zoat · Jan 9, 2021

DrThoth said:
I'm not sure what you mean, exactly. I haven't reread the original segment where Renegade assimilates Nabu but I think Zatara seemed well aware what he was signing up for, and he knows that's different from his current scenario. And Wonder Woman and Red Tornado should probably know the difference as well.

Yes, he'd known that for a month or two. For the rest of his career he'd thought that the Helm aided the wearer.

Sharing information is something the League wasn't very good at.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Veteran Lurker

Dedicated ragequitter

Connoisseur.

Not too sore, are you?

Versed in the lewd.

Connoisseur.

Experienced.

Connoisseur.

I trust you know where the happy button is?

Connoisseur.

Experienced.

Connoisseur.

Lord of nonsense

Dedicated ragequitter

Lord of nonsense

Wishing I was somewhere colder no doubt.

Know what you're doing yet?

I trust you know where the happy button is?

Connoisseur.

I trust you know where the happy button is?

Connoisseur.

Not too sore, are you?

Connoisseur.

Know what you're doing yet?

Versed in the lewd.

Dedicated ragequitter

I trust you know where the happy button is?

Connoisseur.

Versed in the lewd.

Dedicated ragequitter

Users who are viewing this thread