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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Forget about the constructive power of criticism, it just seems downright weird that someone who hears that a colleague has been depressed ever since the majority of his family DIED HORRIBLY would immediately jump to mocking his personal problems. Even for Grayven the complete lack of empathy seems jarring and out of character.
 
Ct613hulu said:
This seems like a really nasty thing for Grayven to do. Sunset may be able to emphasize with Magnificus over their shared of inadequacy but she can't really relate to the whole "my entire family is dead" aspect of his trauma. It really seems like Grayven should have focused on that rather than making some kind of pointed jest out of Magnificus's depression.
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Didn't she turn her parents into potted plants on accident or something? I know canon Twilight did that, which contributed to her shut away behavior. I think that was mentioned once - not sure if it was mentioned as not having happened though. That's relative experience on that front at least. As he says - he's a sociopath (?) autistic (?) trying to solve what he sees a friendship / companionship problem. He's trying to find Magnificus someone that can relate to him and possibly comfort him, without feeling jealous or mocking him for his jealousy of his syblings.
 
Ardy said:
Or just flat out making stuff up, like in this case
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Well, yes. I'd classify that under 'annoying and unhelpful,' but I suppose it did need to be said.

I will admit, though, that I am biased against Vaermina, having previously been greatly annoyed by many of his posts in Zoat's threads on SB.com and SV.com, and now here.

Ct613hulu said:
Forget about the constructive power of criticism, it just seems downright weird that someone who hears that a colleague has been depressed ever since the majority of his family DIED HORRIBLY would immediately jump to mocking his personal problems. Even for Grayven the complete lack of empathy seems jarring and out of character.
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That wasn't how I read what he did, but it may be a valid interpretation. Grayven is really bad at helping with this type of problem, though.
 
Can we please stop derailing threads to bitch about Vaermina supposedly derailing threads?

I'm sorry (no I'm not) but I remember this same conversation happening with at least some of the same participants at least three times and I came into this story like... Two threads ago.

I'm pretty sure that Magni wouldn't respond well to normal therapy. Two reasons. First and most obviously, he could run intellectual circles around pretty much anyone else. The therapist wouldn't be able to get past his defenses, and it's not likely he'd want the help enough to relax them independently.

Secondly and less obviously, one of his siblings was a social polymath, wasn't she? Last thing he wants right now is to be reminded of her and all the "soft subject" digs he never realized might have actually hurt her, thinking that she died disliking him over stupid ribbing.

Thus, introducing him to Sunset Shimmer with a healthy dose of sarcasm. Magni doesn't need or want pity, with the life he's lived the idea of being pitiable at all is anathema to him. He's missing out on human interaction. He needs to be reminded he's still a person, by spending time with another person who isn't his revenge-obsessed dad.

And I think Grayven might be trying to do the matchmaker thing too, because there's a decent chance that those two could be genuinely happy together. Maybe not a great one, but it's there.
 
Ardy said:
Or just flat out making stuff up, like in this case
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Trying to be impartial/ devil's advocate - the military DOES put a lot of funding into research funding, and the opponent being a strawman IS a bit obvious. His problem seems to be that he's the politician trying to push stasis - find a solution for the supervillain problem that works and does not involve hiring unknown, possibly untrustworthy contractors. Military spending is a traditional solution, and something Republicans always call for - it's what usually gets voters to vote for them. The point is he's thinking like a boring politician - even Horne probably agrees military spending isn't necessarily bad, but it's made for defense against foreign threats, and traditional solutions aren't what is needed here. Problem is that instead of doing his research like a normal person, the obvious strawman uses his opinion that expanding - rather than reorganizing - the military is the best solution.
 
I came into this story a few months before SV banned us. Trying to defend Vaermina because essentially the same people were making the same kind of comments to him a few months worth of threads before I joined - he's been posting things that don't make sense in this story, but are DC canon / his head theories for quite a while. At this point , I think he might either be slightly OCD about DC canon, or get off on people being angry at him. Either way, being angry and responding to him isn't gonna help if you want him to stop. Don't respond to the person who you think acts like a troll. Just ignore him - even if he's wrong, don't be mean to him about it.
 
RichardWhereat said:
Or, the DC movie is wrong. After all, they called him Shazam. DC hasn't beein trying to get things comic accurate since Nolan. Don't worry about it.
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If no one in the company has ever said it in an interview, the way the movie says it might be right by default, since it's the only official source. Also, pronounciations of names might be different in different universes (with how DC writing works).
 
Mquz said:
If no one in the company has ever said it in an interview, the way the movie says it might be right by default, since it's the only official source. Also, pronounciations of names might be different in different universes (with how DC writing works).
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There have been Captain Marvel movies, TV series, and cartoons before, so the question is how the name was pronounced back then.
 
In more a realistic world then DC, the Military might be a valid response to the problems posed by Supervillains... but it'd almost certainly require a completely new kind of military organization.

The military has special forces already, and pouring more money into that isn't going to get you better operatives quickly. You need specialized R&D to counter the multifacited problem of supervillains. And then you have the problems that militaries generally make shitty police forces, and a lot of supervillain action is going to be taking place in cities, where militaries usually really don't like operating for very good reasons.

If Knight is only proposing increased military spending (and, this is important, the story as written sounds like that's what he was doing), he deserved to have his ass kicked. Again, supervillains are too multifaceted a problem to be amenable to a one-size-fits-all solution.

In other words, Vaermina is once again reading a different story then the rest of us, but that being said, he has a valid point for that imaginary story.

Thanks
Luc "Arguing Past Each Other" French
 
Lubaf said:
In more a realistic world then DC, the Military might be a valid response to the problems posed by Supervillains... but it'd almost certainly require a completely new kind of military organization.

The military has special forces already, and pouring more money into that isn't going to get you better operatives quickly. You need specialized R&D to counter the multifacited problem of supervillains. And then you have the problems that militaries generally make shitty police forces, and a lot of supervillain action is going to be taking place in cities, where militaries usually really don't like operating for very good reasons.

If Knight is only proposing increased military spending (and, this is important, the story as written sounds like that's what he was doing), he deserved to have his ass kicked. Again, supervillains are too multifaceted a problem to be amenable to a one-size-fits-all solution.

In other words, Vaermina is once again reading a different story then the rest of us, but that being said, he has a valid point for that imaginary story.

Thanks
Luc "Arguing Past Each Other" French
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So..... you're saying that we need Xcom. Right. Gotcha.
 
Hmm. If I'm recalling correctly, in the Paul timeline Magni ended up with Nyssa. For the Grayven timeline, could this be the start of Magni x Sunset?

Let's ship it.

Also, on the military thing . . . I mean, sure, for the supervillains that are bulletproof, ten assault rifles are going to be just as ineffective as one assault rifle. But a lot of supervillains are perfectly vulnerable to bullets, and throwing more guns at them makes it that much easier for at least a couple bullets to find them.
 
ForeverShogo said:
Hmm. If I'm recalling correctly, in the Paul timeline Magni ended up with Nyssa. For the Grayven timeline, could this be the start of Magni x Sunset?

Let's ship it.

Also, on the military thing . . . I mean, sure, for the supervillains that are bulletproof, ten assault rifles are going to be just as ineffective as one assault rifle. But a lot of supervillains are perfectly vulnerable to bullets, and throwing more guns at them makes it that much easier for at least a couple bullets to find them.
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Again, supervillains are multifaceted problem, and guns are a one-dimensional solution. While non-bulletproof supervillains are more common then bulletproof ones, they're also more likely to avoid the kind of confrontation that allows you to straight up shoot them.

Queshire said:
So..... you're saying that we need Xcom. Right. Gotcha.
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More or less, yes. That might be an interesting twist on the X-Com formula, come to think of it.

Thanks
Luc "S-Com: Supervillain Unknown" French
 
ForeverShogo said:
Also, on the military thing . . . I mean, sure, for the supervillains that are bulletproof, ten assault rifles are going to be just as ineffective as one assault rifle. But a lot of supervillains are perfectly vulnerable to bullets, and throwing more guns at them makes it that much easier for at least a couple bullets to find them.
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One sniper can kill a non-bulletproof supervillain.

One platoon of riflemen can kill a non-bulletproof supervillain and wreck the rest of the town he was standing in.
 
Senevri said:
Whilst Horne's soundbite is un-nuanced, it's something that probably works in an interview.
Also, DC military doesn't have a great track record with mad science. Mostly they seem to develop one-off supercreatures, where a number of those becomes hostile to their maker.

And in all fairness, a chunk of the overblown defense budget goes to interesting, not-strictly-military projects... But that's more of a routing around the problem of having too much money...

Also I'm sure Sunset and Magnificus will get along like a house on fire.
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Mquz said:
Here's the thing - the military doesn't have superscience - any tech they create is useless against super villains. They have and have had way more money than they actually need - they could literally pay supervillains millions of dollars as chump change and still come off on the better end of the bargain. The current US military seemingly has all the budget they need, and still can't make tech that the in-universe Sivanas we're making in the 90s. To beat a super you need to use super-tech, not normal person tech, and super-tech is literally incomprehensible for most normal people. Funding the military will lead to more guns - more warships, tanks, planes, etc. It won't (being DC) lead to more variety - spaceships, orbital lasers, giant mechs, freeze rays, etc. because that's not how the military works in DC., and all that tech already has blueprints that they could either buy/ steal from villains with all that money. Seriously - all that spending, and the best the US military has is the suicide squad, when they could be paying the saner supervillains, like dead shot/ death stroke / Mr. Freeze / Lex Luthor millions to eliminate targets willingly / make tech worth billions by modern standards. More funding isn't what the military needs, better management is.
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Just to note, on Earth-16 the military developed X-ionized blades, which are apparently mass-producible and performs well against pretty much everything OL's tried it against. He seems to have forgotten he has them lately, but I remember him cutting through various starship hulls and superpowered aliens with them.

So the military R&D isn't completely useless.
 
Odysseus2099 said:
Just to note, on Earth-16 the military developed X-ionized blades, which are apparently mass-producible and performs well against pretty much everything OL's tried it against. He seems to have forgotten he has them lately, but I remember him cutting through various starship hulls and superpowered aliens with them.

So the military R&D isn't completely useless.
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He used them against the mutant gnomes in the previous episode.

They were created using technology taken from an alien ship. While the SI can replicate it easily enough, it's massively expensive to reproduce using Earth technology.
 
Hm. I wonder if introducing person who felt they were HELD BACK to a person who felt they were NOT GOOD ENOUGH is useful. Better than introducing an exactly similar person, I guess. Hugbox bubbles are not that healthy.
 
Vaermina said:
Being Bulletproof is a sliding scale Mr Zoat.

As are Sniper Rifles.
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Name a partially bulletproof person in DC. It's usually all or nothing. Sniper Rifles - which the military already has - and therefore just needs consistent, not increasing funding, work against things like bulletproof glass, but bulletproof villains are still bulletproof to the point they don't work. They don't NEED significantly increased funding to deal with supervillains. Doesn't mean it won't be useful. Crucially, Horne isn't advocating decreasing funding - he's not anti-military, he's just against expanding funding when an already well-funded military isn't showing results.

Though, if there wasn't a war in Vietnam/ Iraq, it might not actually be that well funded.

We're not actually talking about having 10 guns in the entire military. We're talking about increasing military funding not doing much if it's not run well enough - the US spends $617 billion yearly on military expenses, with an extra $99 billion in case of war. Spending an extra $100 billion isn't gonna make much of a difference when dealing with supervillains, and the US can't afford to pay themilitary even twice as much as it already is.

The problem is that this is the DC military., not the actual US military - It's not well thought out, and they don't find super geniuses to come up with their tech. Instead their tech is modern tech, and they don't find Ex-criminals, like the actual US does/ did. (E.G. Werhner von Braun).

They're at the point where they could pay Mr. Freeze / Captain Cold billions to come up with affordable freeze guns, and still save money compared to what they spend now to come up with the same tech. That would probably stop them stealing, let them live in luxury, and deal with whatever issues they have (e.g. saving Nora Fries). Mr Freeze would be so much easier to control if you have him millions of dollars of funding to save Nora and any resources he needed.

Same thing with Zeta tubes. You want teleportation? Fund whoever that tech belongs to to find ways to make it affordable, and suddenly you've just got the ability to drop bombs into the middle of whatever buildings your enemy leaders live in. Even if it takes too long to set up, you could airdrop a zeta tube, and then have any amount of shock troopers step out.
 
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Aeess said:
And the Flash would break the bones in his foot after a single step, but he doesent have any increased durability.
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Earth 16 humans are more durable than Earth Prime humans just at baseline. Even civilians can survive impacts that would shatter the ribs of a real-world human.
 
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