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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Handlewithcare said:
I don't get how involved Grayven is here.

Hyde is just one random human man. He can literally build minions more useful.

If Kaldur is considered a friend, he should have helped keep Hyde far away
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Grayven is a busybody. It makes me a little uncomfortable how hands on he is with Adom and the witch lady, especially compared to regular Paul.
 
Mr Zoat said:
A hush tube opens
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Did Scott fail in his efforts to rework the League's security measures? I remember in the episode where Renegade took down the rest of Light the topic of blocking hush tubes was mentioned and how Renegade bypassed them before. Scott sounded like he was going to try and prevent it from happening again.
 
cereal_lurker said:
Did Scott fail in his efforts to rework the League's security measures? I remember in the episode where Renegade took down the rest of Light the topic of blocking hush tubes was mentioned and how Renegade bypassed them before. Scott sounded like he was going to try and prevent it from happening again.
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No, but he isn't blocking the entirety of Happy Harbor.
 
Chojin Patriarch said:
After all, having Manta show up on your doorstep unannounced might warrant just a bit of concern.
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More than a bit.

Chojin Patriarch said:
You know, Grayven, for such a smart guy, you can be real dumb
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Yes, yes he can.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Well, that isn't exactly a good thing, no
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And it's much, much worse in the comics.

There he wanted to conquer Atlantis and either enslave or wipe out the natives so he can establish a nation for black people, who he thought were cheated out of a nation and the only way to get one was to take it from someone else.

Truly his sense of justice is so great that even the Marines from One Piece would applaud him.

Even Killmonger cannot claim such accomplishments.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Which is a question that needs answering: How? The most likely is that Manta received info from the Light's files that hinted at it. Kaldur's parents would be included in his information. The next question then would be how he confirmed it...
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Renegade told him.

When Manta was asking for more things of the Light renegade revealed to him that Kaldur was his biological kid.

Before that he just suspected it but didn't know exactly.
 
Titanacoracy101 said:
Then people who've worked on submarines, instead of jackass terrorists who bring nothing else to the table but a worsening of relations with people who actually matter?
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From Wednesday said:
"Kaldur, where exactly on Earth do you think I'm going to find crews for the EDF ships Lex is building?"

He pauses for a moment. "Any of the world's militaries would be able to provide you with trained personnel."

I shake my head. "Not trained for space combat. Underwater combat comes closest, but the pressure and inertia make it completely different. Same for aeroplanes and voidcraft. The skill sets aren't easily transferable. So we've got a choice between taking military people and beating the bad habits out of them or training new people in doctrines we haven't invented yet. If you ever want a good laugh I'll show you the low gravity training sessions we ran for some of N.A.T.O.'s special forces units. The skills aren't there."

"Except in Atlantis."

"Nope. Too much magic, not enough technology, and your war engines are all organic. David Hyde's people are trained for sub-aquatic, aquatic and aerial combat. They have the skills that other people simply don't. Earth needs them, and King Orin wouldn't have pardoned him if he didn't agree with me. And your part in Earth getting them involves letting him bitterly lament not being the man who raised you and then telling him to never darken your door again. I'm sure you'll survive. Though for what it's worth I'm sorry for putting you in this position."
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Titanacoracy101 said:
So you're telling me that there's no one else on the entire planet who has this training, other than the jackass under the sea?
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There are a handful, but they're either government employees or aliens.

When was the last time submarines shot at each other in anger?
 
Handlewithcare said:
And their start point is a random serial killer merc whose pardon anatagonises the wider Atlantis?

Typical supervillain reasoning
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Not a serial killer, a terrorist mercenary. The second usually has a bigger killcount but didn't do it for pleasure, although a mix of the two isn't rare.

Lord Ernest said:
Gotta be honest, same reason why I didn't get why Aquaman was so mad that he didn't know about his lost son, I don't get why Black Manta is so mad about this. I mean, couldn't he have tried to contact Kaldur on his own when he found out that they were related? Why are you mad about finding out about an unknown child? Should have been more careful about where you were "spreading it about", as it were, then!
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Hard to get into contact with your son when he is trained to become a soldier by the country wanting you dead, when he is personally trained by your nemesis or when he is surrounded by highly trained warriors that will kick your ass on sight.

Edit: Maybe he wanted the contact but didn't want to take him from his family. And mercenary life inside a submarine isn't a place for a child to grow up
 
néocorvinus said:
Edit: Maybe he wanted the contact but didn't want to take him from his family. And mercenary life inside a submarine isn't a place for a child to grow up
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Zoat said that he would have taken him if he knew he was his son.

Also, Manta himself may have grown up on a sub, or at least surrounded by mercenaries.

When renegade told him Kaldur was his son, Manta mentioned that when he was his age he led strike teams.
 
Zoat has a point here. Pretty much any submarine officer in the world is likely a naval officer associated with a nation to a large degree who would always have questionable loyalty to Star Fleet.

But Hyde holds no allegiance to any nation. He is uniquely qualified to help train up their ranks.
 
Handlewithcare said:
I don't get how involved Grayven is here.

Hyde is just one random human man. He can literally build minions more useful.

If Kaldur is considered a friend, he should have helped keep Hyde far away
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Eh, Kaldur is working for the Justice League not for Grayven. And for me, getting his criminal father to go from criminal to legally hired mercenary is a good thing. Sure he is still going to be killing people but not people from Atlantis.

"What? Would you have preferred if he got killed fighting your king? If he keep being a criminal? Is that how a Hero should think?"
 
Mr Zoat said:
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me who they think has that training.
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As was mentioned previously, soldiers who have served in submarines.

Though I can now see how Mantas lack of allegiance to a nation may be helpful in some ways.

Though he could have also done what Manta did.

That being hire dissatisfied former soldiers who may not care all that much about their government and who have served in a submarine.

That way he can get his soldiers, and not sour relationships with a powerful kingdom.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Space ships don't work like submarines
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And yet you had your character recruit a guy who previously mostly used a submarine.

Edit:Someone beat me to this.

Mr Zoat said:
And even if they did, how many people currently serving have ever engaged in submarine versus submarine combat?
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Given that this is a comic book universe, I wouldn't be surprised if that number is very high.

Also renegade has a lot of contacts and resources, so he may be able to hire humanoid aliens that have the same physical attributes and abilities as humans, and who have served and fought in spaceships, to teach his new soldiers.

By doing this he gets highly trained soldiers and avoids pissing off Atlantis.
 
Nobody on Earth has spacecraft training, that's rather the point. I don't have any trouble with this "bring in Black Manta" plot, it works on a comic book level and stirs up character drama.

That said, why not hire offworlders with actual space combat training to train up a cadre of Earthers instead of going for this "hire someone everyone hates who has an approximation of the relevant skills" approach?

E: Did Grayven wipe out all of the Gordanians? Seems like he could keep enough of them under control to form a training program.
 
I can't say whether Manta is the right man for the job Grayven wants, but I also don't really care.

I just find myself really disliking Grayven throughout this part.

Like, all I know about Manta really is that he looks stupid, and tries to kill Aquaman a lot. I think he's killed Aquaman's child at least once? In one continuity that is.

I honestly can't see any reason why Kalder and his parents wouldn't just set up a nice trap, and Kill Manta the second they get the chance. Yes obviously they don't have the time to set it up now, and yes, obviously Grayven would act to prevent that.

I dunno, while I'm sure this will go just fine for Grayven's plans, and he isn't fucking anything up. I'm just filled with a sense of "You're fucking everything up."

Then again, I'm a person that honestly feels like Rene-Paul has simply been blundering through one stupid choice after another since his Grayven-ing. Which, I honestly feel is the point of the character.

Hmmm....I guess I just keep putting myself in Kalder or his Father's (Calvin) shoes, and that leads me to where I would say. "Grayven...you're an absolute Cunt. You always are. I don't know why, other than you being strong enough to prevent it, anyone let's you live to keep fucking up the world and people's lives. I hope you die screaming, never bother me again."

Again, I don't have any issues with Zoat's choices, this is all my feelings for the in-universe people.
 
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hkim said:
That said, why not hire offworlders with actual space combat training to train up a cadre of Earthers instead of going for this "hire someone everyone hates who has an approximation of the relevant skills" approach?
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Zoat has made decisions that don't make a whole lot of sense before.

And I'm betting this one may be something the new Light has decided.

Like say, they don't want non-human influence on their defenses.

Even though one of their members is an alien, or at least they think he is, and another is basically a brain attached to a hand.

And they have also used alien tech before.

Just because the new Light is more sane-ish than the old one, that doesn't mean they can't be hypocritical in a big way.

hkim said:
E: Did Grayven wipe out all of the Gordanians? Seems like he could keep enough of them under control to form a training program
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No, I think he conquered them and now they'rе keeping their heads down and not causing trouble.

The Gordanians may be salvageable, unlike the Psions or Citadelians, who are both genetically and culturally made to be as evil as possible.

Although the Psions may be becoming less evil since renegade took over.

Also the Gordanians may not be such a good idea, since they're big lizardmen, so they're experience in spaceship fighting may not be quite suitable for a humanoid.

Still there are probably a lot of humanoids out there that he could hire.

Maxx Crowley said:
I honestly can't see any reason why Kalder and his parents wouldn't just set up a nice trap, and Kill Manta the second they get the chance. Yes obviously they don't have the time to set it up now, and yes, obviously Grayven would act to prevent that.
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They risk breaking the law is one reason.

Even though most of Atlantis may be happy that Manta is swimming with the fishes, Venturia might demand they be tried for murder.

Also Kaldur isn't really the type of guy to do something like that.

His father may have also abandoned the violent ways of his past after defecting from Manta.

Don't know much about his mother and how she would react.

Honestly don't think there's much in canon about her.

I know that in some other fics, like Assimilation, the SI there said she was an accountant, and in Life Ore Death, Orm mentioned she used to be some kind of fighter that specialized in poison magic.

But I don't think there's anything about what she does or what she used to be in the Canon material.

Maxx Crowley said:
Then again, I'm a person that honestly feels like Rene-Paul has simply been blundering through one stupid choice after another since his Grayven-ing. Which, I honestly feel is the point of the character.
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You're not the only one.

Maxx Crowley said:
Hmmm....I guess I just keep putting myself in Kalder or his Father's (Calvin) shoes, and that leads me to where I would say. "Grayven...you're an absolute Cunt. You always are. I don't know why, other than you being strong enough to prevent it, anyone let's you live to keep fucking up the world and people's lives. I hope you die screaming, never bother me again
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I don't think Kaldur would say this, unless he's really, really angry.

His dad might though, don't know that much about him.

Kaldur may just ask renegade to never speak to him again and to not try and interfere in his life ever again.
 
Darko said:
They risk breaking the law is one reason.
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To this, all I can say is that Kalder is, or was, the leader of a off the books, Justice League black ops team.

Beyond that, taking the law into their own hands is basically what Super-heroes do.

Darko said:
Even though most of Atlantis may be happy that Manta is swimming with the fishes, Venturia might demand they be tried for murder.

Also Kaldur isn't really the type of guy to do something like that.

His father may have also abandoned the violent ways of his past after defecting from Manta.

Don't know much about his mother and how she would react.

Honestly don't think there's much in canon about her.

I know that in some other fics, like Assimilation, the SI there said she was an accountant, and in Life Ore Death, Orm mentioned she used to be some kind of fighter that specialized in poison magic.

But I don't think there's anything about what she does or what she used to be in the Canon material.
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Kaldur is a soldier, so killing people is kinda part of the job.

After that, all I can say is my default. I don't care, it's what I'd suggest/do. I honestly can't see any reason, for people who are not Grayven, to not drop Manta on the spot.

Darko said:
You're not the only one.
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Well that's nice. Que "You are not alone" from Final Fantasy 9

Darko said:
I don't think Kaldur would say this, unless he's really, really angry.

His dad might though, don't know that much about him.

Kaldur may just ask renegade to never speak to him again and to not try and interfere in his life ever again.
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Yes well, as I said, it's what I would say were I Kaldur.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Space ships don't work like submarines. And even if they did, how many people currently serving have ever engaged in submarine versus submarine combat?
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Live fire? Not many. However, wargames, including submarine wargames, are conducted regularly, which still provides functional experience. I don't know how often navies other than the US Navy run wargames, but I can't imagine the Chinese and Russian submarine forces don't run their own wargames. I always got the impression that global military spending in the various DC universes was higher than in real life, so there's every chance that quite a selection of recruitable veteran submariners are out there in various countries (and the Light's space force is supposed to be multinational by design, right?).

I fully buy that Black Manta and his crew are the most experienced group in subsurface warfare against nontraditional targets, but did he have more than a skeleton crew for one attack sub? Would they have any experience coordinating with other vessels in an allied squadron, or other skills necessary to operate as part of a larger, official military force, as opposed to as pirates?
 
Maxx Crowley said:
To this, all I can say is that Kalder is, or was, the leader of a off the books, Justice League black ops team.

Beyond that, taking the law into their own hands is basically what Super-heroes do.
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True, but the Team didn't really do assassinations.

And some superheroes are uncomfortable with killing people, even though they take the law into their own hands.

Maxx Crowley said:
Kaldur is a soldier, so killing people is kinda part of the job.
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Most soldiers tend to kill if they're defending someone or something, or if they're ordered by a superior.

Maxx Crowley said:
After that, all I can say is my default. I don't care, it's what I'd suggest/do
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Maxx Crowley said:
Yes well, as I said, it's what I would say were I Kaldur
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Fair enough.
 
Darko said:
True, but the Team didn't really do assassinations.
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No, as it wasn't required. But at the same time, they were created to subvert the charter the League (agrees to) operate under. Furthermore, Orange Lantern WILL kill, and did even while on the team.

Darko said:
And some superheroes are uncomfortable with killing people, even though they take the law into their own hands
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Well yes, creating new supervillains is a pain in the ass. Never throw away a good design or gimmick.

Darko said:
Most soldiers tend to kill if they're defending someone or something, or if they're ordered by a superior.
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That would be quite a shock to all the soldiers who kill while attacking something. Literally every invasion ever.
 
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