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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Why? I thought he had general/eventual plans for white light manipulation. Is he scared that Darkseid is still monitoring him or something?
YES.
My issue comes more from the apparent fact that she's so terrible to her secretary that they don't warn her when the Head of Future Warfare shows up. It doesn't have positive implications for her general competence.
Grayven doesn't actually know that's why that happened. He's just guessing.
…glare?
Unless Armstrong is in the habit of throwing ponies at people.
Possibly weird British slang, or brony slang.
You don't say that where you're from?
So one of the other Pauls who basically took over the world by branding everyone also made that change?
He didn't brand anyone. Branding is far too overt. He either altered their desires a little and left them to their own devices or used the Left Eye of Zoltec.
 
Wait, what? When did Joker become the White Light entity avatar? What comic did that happen in?

A fanfic, but no one complained.Everyone was like "of course is the Joker, it makes perfect sense!"

If that's the case, then he's knowingly risked giving Darkseid information on a force in another dimension that feasibly threatens the utility of the Anti-Life Equation, in the form of the Elements of Harmony.

Considering the Elements of Harmony are in a different universe, Darkseid wouldn't go after them if he can help it. More so knowing how every other villain going after them ends.
 
Considering the Elements of Harmony are in a different universe, Darkseid wouldn't go after them if he can help it. More so knowing how every other villain going after them ends.

I don't think it would be that difficult for him to reach that universe.

He has access to extremely advanced tech and magic so he can use those to go there, like renegade uses MotherBox.

Also Darkseid isn't exactly like the villains Equestria has faced, he's much much more dangerous.

And if he's worried about the AL Equation being destroyed then he may just send a powerful underling to destroy the place.
 
Just as a bit of a reminder to folks that wonder why this Director Armstrong is....a bit off.

She's pretty much the anti- Barbra Gordan / Oracle, and simply can't let anyone 'beat' her. She's a walking example of abuse of government power and over-reach. In the comics she claimed her rank and position put her above everyone, up to and including the President. Clearly not a rational answer for an American government agent, and certainly not one you'd want to try and defend in front of congress.

With the differences in the WTR time line, Barbra's still a little kid, not even Batgirl yet. So without a proper spandex type to get her hate on for, she's apparently targeting Grayven for some of the anger she has at the universe.

EDIT: tl;dr She wants to be Amanda Waller, but she's not nearly good enough to do it.
 
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Just as a bit of a reminder to folks that wonder why this Director Armstrong is....a bit off.

She's pretty much the anti- Barbra Gordan / Oracle, and simply can't let anyone 'beat' her. She's a walking example of abuse of government power and over-reach. In the comics she claimed her rank and position put her above everyone, up to and including the President. Clearly not a rational answer for an American government agent, and certainly not one you'd want to try and defend in front of congress.

With the differences in the WTR time line, Barbra's still a little kid, not even Batgirl yet. So without a proper spandex type to get her hate on for, she's apparently targeting Grayven for some of the anger she has at the universe.

EDIT: tl;dr She wants to be Amanda Waller, but she's not nearly good enough to do it.
So she's basically a caricature, that's extremely frustrating. Waller in at least some depictions had redeemable features and rational reasons for doing what she did. I particularly like her earlier nobody to monster rise from, I believe, the original Suicide Squad series.

I do however love the frankly ludicrous number and combination of agencies Armstrong has been associated with in the comics.

As an aside, didn't Barbra Gordon as Oracle come from the same Suicide Squad series? Don't quote me on that though.
 
I don't think she was intended to be a caricature. The creator of the character for the comics seems to have intended her as a 'jack bauer' type, that would be willing and able to violate a lot of rules and laws if it meant getting the job done.

The problem I think was she was written exclusively to be an antagonist to vigilantes in general, and Barbra in particular.

Since vigilantes are already technically breaking the law, beat up folks, even torture (to a degree) for information, it's rather hard to have a 'rule breaker' character be written side by side with folks that don't follow rules. Barbra learned under Batman, and while she has a code she follows, she's not shy about breaking laws to save lives.

So Armstrong was written to abuse her powers not out of 'getting the job done' but for petty, personal reasons. Which certainly makes her an antagonist. It doesn't however really make her effective at doing her job. Which leads to all the silly spy games that were caused just for the purpose of making her look good/ justify her actions, which of course backfire horribly.
 
If that's the case, then he's knowingly risked giving Darkseid information on a force in another dimension that feasibly threatens the utility of the Anti-Life Equation, in the form of the Elements of Harmony.
What can I say? He needed the fragment gone.
It's written in a really definitive way, so I'd suggest an edit to make that more clear?
Why would Grayven be anything less than definite?
A fanfic, but no one complained.Everyone was like "of course is the Joker, it makes perfect sense!"
In a way, it's reassuring to know that no matter how dumb DC gets, the fans can still be worse.
 
Was rereading some of the previous chapters and I found this.

Proportionally to the number of people who use them, planes are far safer than cars. But there'll be a major investigation after every plane crash while car crashes are… Pretty much regarded as the price of driving cars.

And for some reason it made me think of this.

 
You know, I've followed this story for years. There's been some laughs, some tears, some bumps in the road. For most of this story, I've had fun. But in recent days, I've been thinking on a decision I made two years ago. A decision I now regret. I enjoy this story a lot... but I can't keep doing this. I can't keep supporting someone, even if I barely contribute anything beyond likes and the occasional post, who is transphobic. Not when one of the closest people to me is trans. If Zoat ever makes a formal apology, I'll be happy to come back, but I can't keep compromising my morals for the sake of entertainment.

For anyone wondering, there wasn't anything he's said or done recently that set me off, it was something else I've been watching that made me realize what I've been doing.

I hope to one day come back, but let's be honest. Given Zoat's history with this kind of thing? That isn't happening anytime soon.
 
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The Other Half (part 19)
13th July 2012
16:09 GMT -2


"Grayven."

I turn as King Orin and Queen Mera enter the… I think this is a drawing room, Queen Mera performing the spells required to seal the room against observation.

"And Richard." Orin sounds considerably more friendly as he says it, but the most Richard can manage in response is a slightly strained smile. "Is this League business?"

Richard tips his hat. "Your majesties. This is more in the manner of an emergency briefing, given that it particularly concerns Atlantis. And given its precise nature I thought that you might like to get ahead on this one."

He walks over to convenient conversational distance, his movements entirely unaffected by the pressure of the water around us. Richard was able to confirm that the original victim was Mr. Knightley; a simple matter of looking at his face and Mr. Wayne talking him through performing a genetic analysis whose results only he could see.

"Giovanni was able to locate the individual we believe to be responsible for the murder, and we have a reasonable idea as to why they were slain. He also encountered the probable-perpetrator, which is why he's sitting up and taking light refreshment under the care of his dutiful daughter rather than talking to you."

Orin nods, his eyes flicking to me for a moment.

"Who did it?"

"The gentleman whose face we couldn't see was named William Knightley. He'd been acting as a superhero under the name 'Arion'. And it seems that Arion -or Ahri'ahn, if you prefer- took exception to that. Among other things."

Orin's reaction is fairly muted; a slight frown. Mera on the other hand boggles.

"That's-. That-. Are you.. sure?" She shakes her head. "There are a great many Atlanteans who might take exception to someone from the surface appropriating his name."

I form a bubble of air around my right hand, then take a holoprojector out of subspace and use it to project an image of the man I encountered.

"Does he look familiar?"

Mera stares helplessly at the projection.

"He has… Statues, but they're thousands of years old. I have no idea how accurate they are."

"From our brief conversation I rather got the impression that he was the sort of man to insist on accuracy. Were they contemporary works?"

"You.. spoke to him?"

"Yeah. I'm actually here wearing my American Federal Agent hat. Ahri'ahn attacked Aberrance. Un-men, civilians and US soldiers were killed, and General Lane asked me to come down here and sound you out about the whole thing."

Richard nods, an uncharacteristic degree of sombreness entering his expression. "Yes. The only reason that Zatara isn't a killer insect right now is the intervention of Sunset Shimmer and.. Circe, of all people. The one positive take-away appearing to be that at least Circe's serious about the whole rehabilitation thing. She also.. confirmed that his face and voice match her recollection of Ahri'ahn."

Orin frowns, his eyes finding mine.

"What does General Lane want to know?"

"Whether or not Ahri'ahn… Well, let's start with the basics. Is he an Atlantean citizen, legally speaking?"

"Yes. He lived in Poseidonis immediately after the sinking, and was never exiled. There's a fairly limited precedent for people who were assumed to be dead for so long regaining citizenship, but I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't happen."

"The United States and Atlantis don't have an extradition treaty. If Ahri'ahn came to your attention, would you be prepared to hand him over?"

"I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that he's still alive. I have no interest in sheltering a murderer…" He's looking me directly in the eyes as he says it. "Though if he's as powerful as he's supposed to be, I don't see why he'd want to come here."

"I, ah…" Richard looks away in pantomimed-awkwardness. "Don't mean to be rude, but do you have the ability to stop him if he did?"

Orin looks at Mera, who shakes her head helplessly.

"I have no way to know. Clearly, he had-. He has a brilliant mind, but I have no way to accurately assess how his skills compare to those of modern Atlanteans. How did you defeat him?"

"He said that he wanted to kill all of the Un-men as 'abominations', but he also stole a book which he claimed was his property. After he recovered it, Adom hit him with an Atum-assisted punch. His spells broke and he left in a hurry. But as I'm sure you can sympathise, Adom has a country to run. It isn't practical for him to move to Aberrance or spend his time hunting Ahri'ahn down."

Orin nods.

"I assume that Captain Marvel could do the same thing?"

"Assuming that he's been practising his focuses, yes. Adom is what Marvel might grow into; application isn't an innate part of the power. Look, I think I should… Double check, given our personal history. Is Ahri'ahn becoming active again going to be a political problem for you? I mean, I imagine the Second Coming of Jesus would cause ructions in even a moderate Christian country, and this is the man who literally designed you."

"Ahri'ahn-." / "He was-."

Orin and Mera speak at once, and Orin defers to his wife. Whether due to her Atlantean upbringing or her focus on magic I don't know.

"He was never worshipped in Atlantis, and his original works are no longer taught in school. Thaumaturgy has advanced a great deal since his time, and if he has been somewhere on the surface, I.. doubt that he has been able to keep up. One man, no matter how brilliant, cannot equal all of the greatest minds of a civilisation."

I nod. "Alright. Let us know if you hear anything. I've got no reason to believe that he's hostile to Atlantis, but you might want to redouble your defences anyway. I'll-."

"Grayven."

Orin's giving me a stern glare. I smile at him and raise my eyebrows in polite enquiry.

"Yes?"

"How many people did Ahri'ahn kill today?"

"We're not entirely certain yet. A hundred and fifty or thereabouts."

"And how many people do you think Black Manta killed over the years?"

Oh, that's how he's-.

"I don't know. More than that, probably. Though he was more discriminating. And of course, nobody -including Circe herself- knows how many people Circe has killed. And yeah, if Mister Hyde had killed anyone I cared about I'd have killed him and his with absolutely no regrets." I shrug. "I certainly appreciate you pardoning him, but... You didn't have to. You chose pragmatism, and I'm grateful. But unless Ahri'ahn offers the United States government something of massive value, I doubt that they'll make the same decision."

He nods.

"For some reason, I wasn't expecting you to be that direct about it."

"Real politics is realpolitik. I mean, if you could have killed or captured Mister Hyde without my help, you'd have done that, right?"

"Of course."

"And Diana would have gleefully captured Circe and imprisoned her permanently, and as… Far as I'm aware never tried to address her motives. In practical terms then… If Atlantis caught Ahri'ahn, I suppose that would put you in a stronger negotiating position with regard to what happened to him."

I bow.

"Your majesties. Thank you for seeing me at short notice."
 
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over to convenient conversational distance,

'to a'

Orin's reaction is fairly muted; a slight frown.

Seeing as he didn't grow up in Atlantis it's understandable he wouldn't attach the same meaning to certain things as natives.

"I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that he's still alive

Yeah, this version of the League is much less experienced than other versions, so a thousand year old magic guy coming back to life may be something they don't deal with as much as other versions of them.

He looking me directly

'He's looking'


'looks at'

But unless Ahri'ahn offers the United States government something of massive value, I doubt that they'll make the same decision."

Well the Suicide Squad exists in comics, so we know the government has little problem working with sociopathic or otherwise criminally inclined individuals.

Assuming Ahri'ahn decides to work with them if he's captured and not just refuse because he hates them.

Far as I'm aware never tried to address her motives.

Assuming Circe even listened to her if she offered help.

She may have thought it was some kind of ploy by Diana to kill her.
 
Hey, he might be a power bottom. We don't judge, especially here.

True enough, but something tells me that the full sentence doesn't work as-is. And it's not like changing it to "did" changes anything about the more... promiscuous interpretation you've proposed.
 
13th July 2012
16:09 GMT -2


"Grayven."

I turn as King Orin and Queen Mera enter the… I think this is a drawing room, Queen Mera performing the spells required to seal the room against observation.
Ah, heading directly to a prime point of interest in Arion the Elder's situation. I wonder what he would make of Atlantis as it is now. Given how much it's diverged in the millennia since it's sinking, I suspect he wouldn't hold it to be the same nation...

"And Richard." Orin sounds considerably more friendly as he says it, but the most Richard can managed in response is a slightly strained smile. "Is this League business?"

Richard tips his hat. "Your majesties. This is more in the manner of an emergency briefing, given that it particularly concerns Atlantis. And given its precise nature I thought that you might like to get ahead on this one."
Nothing like old British manners to smooth the ways of diplomacy.

He walks over to convenient conversational distance, his movements entirely unaffected by the pressure of the water around us. Richard was able to confirm that the original victim was Mr. Knightley; a simple matter of looking at his face and Mr. Wayne talking him through performing a genetic analysis whose results only he could see.

"Giovanni was able to locate the individual we believe to be responsible for the murder, and we have a reasonable idea as to why they were slain. He also encountered the probable-perpetrator, which is why he's sitting up and taking light refreshment under the care of his dutiful daughter rather than talking to you."
And that phrasing is a very significant hint that things did not go well in the encounter. Pretty much tell Arthur that Giovanni got his ass handed to him.

Orin nods, his eyes flicking to me for a moment.

"Who did it?"
Ah, yes, that's the heart of the matter, isn't it?

"The gentleman whose face we couldn't see was named William Knightley. He'd been acting as a superhero under the name 'Arion'. And it seems that Arion -or Ahri'ahn, if you prefer- took exception to that. Among other thing."

Orin's reaction is fairly muted; a slight frown. Mera on the other hand boggles.
Indeed. That would be like hearing.. I don't know, Homer? Socrates? Julius Caeser.. has come back from the dead as a super-criminal. It depends on how revered Arion the Elder is, really, especially amongst the populace in general rather than just thaumaturgical studies circles.

"That's-. That-. Are you.. sure?" She shakes her head. "There are a great many Atlanteans who might take exception to someone from the surface appropriating his name."

I form a bubble of air around my right hand, then take a holoprojector out of subspace and use it to project an image of the man I encountered.
Admittedly, many of those who might take issues would be unlikely to be interested in visiting the surface just to attack them.

"Does he look familiar?"

Mera stares helplessly at the projection.
To be fair, how many classical figures would you recognise from ancient artwork of them? Even the most realistic statue would be somewhat stylised to give the subject a more favourable cast.

"He has… Statues, but they're thousands of years old. I have no idea how accurate they are."

"From our brief conversation I rather got the impression that he was the sort of man to insist on accuracy. Were they contemporary works?"
Never mind the natural degradation they might suffer after several thousand years submerged. Not just sea life making them their homes, but the simple wear of ocean currents.

"You.. spoke to him?"

"Yeah. I'm actually here wearing my American Federal Agent hat. Ahri'ahn attacked Aberrance. Un-men, civilians and US soldiers were killed, and General Lane asked me to come down here and sound you out about the whole thing."
Not to worry, they don't hold Atlantis responsible in any way. Imagine if George Washington showed up in London at the head of an army of revolutionary soldiers. Would you blame the Americans?

Richard nods, an uncharacteristic degree of sombreness entering his expression. "Yes. The only reason that Zatara isn't a killer insect right now is the intervention of Sunset Shimmer and.. Circe, of all people. The one positive take-away appearing to be that at least Circe's serious about the whole rehabilitation thing. She also.. confirmed that his face and voice match her recollection of Ahri'ahn."

Orin frowns, his eyes finding mine.
He's probably thinking there's a hint of bullshit in the water. After all, Grayven.

"What does General Lane want to know?"

"Whether or not Ahri'ahn… Well, let's start with the basics. Is he an Atlantean citizen, legally speaking?"
That could make for all manner of awkward complications in pursuing and prosecuting him.

"Yes. He lived in Poseidonis immediately after the sinking, and was never exiled. There's a fairly limited precedent for people who were assumed to be dead for so long regaining citizenship, but I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't happen."

"The United States and Atlantis don't have an extradition treaty. If Ahri'ahn came to your attention, would you be prepared to hand him over?"
The challenge would be taking him first, I suspect.It might come down to Orin beating his face in with some ancient anti-magical cestus from the royal armoury....

"I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that he's still alive. I have no interest in sheltering a murderer…" He looking me directly in the eyes as he says it. "Though if he's as powerful as he's supposed to be, I don't see why he'd want to come here."

"I, ah…" Richard looks away in pantomimed-awkwardness. "Don't mean to be rude, but do you have the ability to stop him if he did?"
Depends on how much anti-magical weapons they have, like I just said. And how many people would rise up to follow him. He could well have included some manner of mental control backdoor on the adaptation spell... And would probably not be above using it if he did, at least on the 'lesser' citizens.

Orin look Mera, who shakes her head helplessly.

"I have no way to know. Clearly, he had-. He has a brilliant mind, but I have no way to accurately assess how his skills compare to those of modern Atlanteans. How did you defeat him?"
Atlantean thaumaturgic knowledge has come a long way since Arion the Elder's day. Though you don't become an Arch-mage by being unwilling to learn new tricks...

"He said that he wanted to kill all of the Un-men as 'abominations', but he also stole a book which he claimed was his property. After he recovered it, Adom hit him with an Atum-assisted punch. His spells broke and he left in a hurry. But as I'm sure you can sympathise, Adom has a country to run. It isn't practical for him to move to Aberrance or spend his time hunting Ahri'ahn down."

Orin nods.
I'm sure Orin can understand that. I bet he has days where he'd rather be back in the US, punching muggers in the face.

"I assume that Captain Marvel could do the same thing?"

"Assuming that he's been practicing his focuses, yes. Adom is what Marvel might grow into; application isn't an innate part of the power. Look, I think I should… Double check, given our personal history. Is Ahri'ahn becoming active again going to be a political problem for you? I mean, I imagine the Second Coming of Jesus would cause ructions in even a moderate Christian country, and this is the man who literally designed you."
Something of a good analogy, though Atlanteans don't outright worship Arion the Elder the way Christians do Christ. At least, I hope so.

"Ahri'ahn-." / "He was-."

Orin and Mera speak at once, and Orin defers to his wife. Whether due to her Atlantean upbringing or her focus on magic I don't know.
Or he's just wise enough to know his wife is a smart woman, and doesn't feel the need to.. swing his dick, so to speak...

"He was never worshipped in Atlantis, and his original works are no longer taught in school. Thaumaturgy has advanced a great deal since his time, and if he has been somewhere on the surface, I.. doubt that he has been able to keep up. One man, no matter how brilliant, cannot equal all of the greatest minds of a civilisation."

I nod. "Alright. Let us know if you hear anything. I've got no reason to believe that he's hostile to Atlantis, but you might want to redouble your defences anyway. I'll-."
As much as you can against someone as crafty as Arion the Elder.

"Grayven."

Orin's giving me a stern glare. I smile at him and raise my eyebrows in polite enquiry.
Oh, Orin's going to try to make a point, is he?

"Yes?"

"How many people in Ahri'ahn kill today?"
Too many, though less than he would have without Grayven's group stepping in.

"We're not entirely certain yet. A hundred and fifty or thereabouts."

"And how many people do you think Black Manta killed over the years?"
...Really? Really? :rolleyes: How long is Orin going to keep bringing this up?

Oh, that's how he's-.

"I don't know. More than that, probably. Though he was more discriminating. And of course, nobody -including Circe herself- knows how many people Circe has killed. And yeah, if Mister Hyde had killed anyone I cared about I'd have killed him and his with absolutely no regrets." I shrug. "I certainly appreciate you pardoning him, but... You didn't have to. You chose pragmatism, and I'm grateful. But unless Ahri'ahn offers the United States government something of massive value, I doubt that they'll make the same decision."
Thankfully, Arion the Elder does not seem like the sort to be so pragmatic. He's too... Principled. or perhaps Arrogant would be a better word? Opinionated? Racist? Head too far up his own arse?

He nods.

"For some reason, I wasn't expecting you to be that direct about it."
There's something to be said for bluntness in diplomacy. Though you really have to be certain the person you're talking to can handle it.

"Real politics is realpolitik. I mean, if you could have killed or captured Mister Hyde without my help, you'd have done that, right?"

"Of course."
Admittedly, he was as slippery as a greased eel. In a pool of baby oil.

"And Diana would have gleefully captured Circe and imprisoned her permanently, and as… Far as I'm aware never tried to address her motives. In practical terms then… If Atlantis caught Ahri'ahn, I suppose that would put you in a stronger negotiating position with regard to what happened to him."

I bow.

"Your majesties. Thank you for seeing me at short notice."
You'll note he says nothing about Adom? After all, when he finally gets his hands on Jebediah (and hasn't let go of that anger) things are likely to get biblical. And messy.

Well, I'm glad Orin and Grayven can still be in the same room and be civil to each other. The whole Manta thing did cause a big knock to their working relationship, after all. Still, all this is going to have knock-on effects down the line, worldwide. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it...
 
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. It depends on how revered Arion the Elder is, really, especially amongst the populace in general rather than just thaumaturgical studies circles.

I'm thinking it may something like the reverence Americans have for George Washington.

Never mind the natural degradation they might suffer after several thousand years submerged. Not just sea life making them their homes, but the simple wear of ocean currents.

Unless they used magic to prevent degradation.

Not to worry, they don't hold Atlantis responsible in any way. Imagine if George Washington in London showed up at the head of an army of revolutionary soldiers. Would you blame the Americans?

I don't know, some politicians can get some crazy ideas.

He's probably thinking there's a hint of bullshit in the water. After all, Grayven.

Something everyone would think when they're in his presence.

Something of a good analogy, though Atlanteans don't outright worship Arion the Elder the way Christians do Christ. At least, I hope so.

Again, it may be more like Americans and George Washington.

Though it wouldn't be surprising if there are some cults dedicated to him.

Oh, Orin's going to try to make a point, is he?

Really? Really? :rolleyes: How long is Orin going to keep bringing this up?

I think when it comes to someone like renegade you just have to keep bringing up their mistakes so they don't forget them.

Remember it took being exposed to the AL Equation for him to even get the thought that maybe he shouldn't be such a dick, and even then it still felt like ages since he actually even tried to not be such a dick, and it still feels like he's doing the absolute minimum on that front.

So we know he's not actually all that great at considering his choices.

Thankfully, Arion the Elder does not seem like the sort to be so pragmatic. He's too... Principled. or perhaps Arrogant would be a better word? Opinionated? Racist? Head too far up his own arse?

All of the above.
 
The Squad has had powerful magic users before, like Enchantress, so they have had members that could potentially kill others with ease before.
The concern isn't who he can kill, it's whether a bomb planted in/on a biomancer/teleporter will stay there.

Be a bit awkward if he slipped it in the president's chest cavity when you weren't looking.
 
Someone help me out?

A) Who is Richard?
B) What was it again that Orin gained by pardoning Hyde?
 
[QUOTE="Mr Zoat, post: 4257219, member: 12669"A cessation of attacks against Atlantis, guaranteed by magic.[/QUOTE]

And in, the guy dies if he breaks the deal.

Wonder why is he so bitter about it?

Never heard of Operation Paperclip? As an American Mister Curry really can't complain. And as an Atlantean? They are the ones who invented said magic deal in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
 

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