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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Mr Zoat said:
That would require one Grayven to have common sense.
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One version is an Apokaliptian, the other one is a Paul.

Both are things that are not known for their common sense.

Frankly Common Sense Paul's existence is a miracle.

Mr Zoat said:
Please note the presence of the meow arrow.
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I can't tell if this is an actual comic or something someone drew as a joke, but hot damn that's a ridiculous arrow.
 
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Vaermina said:
Because there wasn't even a single "the dregs of his soul are fighting me" in there to support the idea of a merger instead of Grayven just blasting him to dust and gaining his metaphysical everything.
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Did we read the same update, Vae? "The dregs of his soul are fighting me" absolutely happened in there. You just didn't recognize it for what it was, because it wasn't written so bluntly and inelegantly as a cliche of multiple personalities.

Even before Artemis shot him, the Renegade's thought processes were pushing at his behaviors:

Mr Zoat said:
Though now that the pretender is dead, the destruction of his nascent empire in Vega is no longer necessary. Indeed, it may be counterproductive, especially if the Controllers take advantage of the situation in order to take full possession of the Orange Central Power Battery.
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The Renegade gets what he wanted.

Mr Zoat said:
"My Father did not yet rule Apokolips. Sinthia, fetch the queen. She has an accord to confirm."
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The Renegade gets rid of a source of outside interference.

Mr Zoat said:
I suspect that an honest answer would serve me best. It is what she would have received from the pretender.
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The Renegade continues to empower his partner.

This is what a real mind whammy looks like. It's not unexplained impulses contrary to your nature that you comply with regardless. It's having your nature altered so that you rationalize those impulses as something you think you would have done anyway.
 
Coda said:
Did we read the same update, Vae? "The dregs of his soul are fighting me" absolutely happened in there. You just didn't recognize it for what it was, because it wasn't written so bluntly and inelegantly as a cliche of multiple personalities.

Even before Artemis shot him, the Renegade's thought processes were pushing at his behaviors:


The Renegade gets what he wanted.


The Renegade gets rid of a source of outside interference.


The Renegade continues to empower his partner.

This is what a real mind whammy looks like. It's not unexplained impulses contrary to your nature that you comply with regardless. It's having your nature altered so that you rationalize those impulses as something you think you would have done anyway.
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Plus there's this.

Mr Zoat said:
There's an arrow in my chest, and… Total autocracy is impractical in an empire of any size, what was I-?
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Though seeing as you're arguing with Vaermina, using logic, reason and evidence, which Vaermina does not recognise as being things, I think you're just wasting your time.
 
Thinking of how Paragon is keeping cloned bodies of himself as a backup for his soul, I was wondering, can New Gods be cloned? I'm thinking of clones who aren't sapient in their own right, but merely organic/metaphysical relays for Renegade's New God powers, as well as bodies his consciousness can occupy to physically interact with things in multiple places. In a way it could be like him becoming a gestalt consciousness like the Genomorph Entire, or maybe more akin to how Ritchie Simpson can occupy different bodies.

Is Renegade doing anything to help efforts to recreate X'Hal from Tamaraneans? In a more ethical way than the Psions, obviously.
I'm not sure if X'Hal and Auron are still around, there's probably a Word of Zoat about it from ages ago or something.

Vega might be his, directly or indirectly, but it's more of a long-term investment than anything, even with a Corps of Tamaranean Orange Lanterns currently under his command. If I were him, I'd seek out existing sources of power that could help things along. Getting rid of the Computer Tyrants and recruiting more Coluans comes to mind, just because I was remembering how his forces slaughtered the Dominators on Starlag instead of the more subtle approach Paragon took (initially, anyway). Varnathon should be doing his Qwardian reform thing, so that could be another possible avenue of getting resources, though dealing with qwa-matter is probably something even New Gods should be cautious of.

I forget; did Renegade Awaken Captain Comet? or did he hold off because of his injuries? I'd have assumed it would have helped him recover to his ideal self, if anything.

Can Shade travel to other planets through the Shadowlands or anything like that? Can he access his powers while on other worlds/in space? I'm not sure if he came along on the Justice League's trip to Vega, though if they were going to leave someone behind to deal with possible global threats, he makes sense as the person to pick.
 
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DrThoth said:
Is Renegade doing anything to help efforts to recreate X'Hal from Tamaraneans? In a more ethical way than the Psions, obviously.
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Dox told him he wanted to study the process and renegade said yes.

Mr Zoat said:
"I want to try and recreate the circumstances that led to the creation of X'Hal."

"Get volunteers and I'll approve it, though unless you've already made progress I'm going to say leave it until after we deal with my alter-ego."
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DrThoth said:
I'm not sure if X'Hal and Auron are still around, there's probably a Word of Zoat about it from ages ago or something.
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Actually Grayven seemed to be aware of them and maybe even where they were, but I'm not sure if he knows the actual location.

DrThoth said:
I forget; did Renegade Awaken Captain Comet? or did he hold off because of his injuries? I'd have assumed it would have helped him recover to his ideal self, if anything.
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No, he didn't Awaken him.

He just had Ceanius heal him.

His telepathy is lower now and he has headaches.
 
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DrThoth said:
Thinking of how Paragon is keeping cloned bodies of himself as a backup for his soul, I was wondering, can New Gods be cloned?
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In the comics, yes.

Darkseid cloned Orion and Kalibak to serve him in Legion of Superheroes, and Captain Atom once travelled to a future in which an evil Justice League exists, being people who were genetically altered into clones of the Justice League, including a Mr Miracle.
 
Senevri said:
He's only mostly dead.

I suspect we're about to see who's the Superior Grayven here.
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We already saw that with the actual Grayven winning.

Now we are at the "Renegade's ally is going to tack things onto Grayven till Grayven at least somewhat think's he's Renegade" stage.
 
Are the "Personality Arrows" something Artemis can do because she's tied metaphysically to Grayven or could Green arrow and whatever Artemis' ex-boyfriend's name was that I can't remember do that too?
 
I do think people are overlooking the fact that Artemis had the Friendship arrows of Magic ready to go in her quiver. This wasn't an accidental outcome but rather a planned one. It wasn't ideal or without risk but Renegade clearly initiated it in the previous chapter and Artemis stepped in to close the trap.
Also:
Honesty - Self Depreciation
Kindness- Diplomacy
Laughter- Humor
Generosity- Uplift
Loyalty- Fellowship
Magic - Collegiatily (Friendship is Magic)

That seems to one up well but the author can chime in if i got it wrong.
​
 
AmericanNumbers said:
I do think people are overlooking the fact that Artemis had the Friendship arrows of Magic ready to go in her quiver. This wasn't an accidental outcome but rather a planned one. It wasn't ideal or without risk but Renegade clearly initiated it in the previous chapter and Artemis stepped in to close the trap.
Also:
Honesty - Self Depreciation
Kindness- Diplomacy
Laughter- Humor
Generosity- Uplift
Loyalty- Fellowship
Magic - Collegiatily (Friendship is Magic)

That seems to one up well but the author can chime in if i got it wrong.
​
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Ah, no. The arrows weren't prepared in advance. Artemis empowered them as she fired.
 
Coda said:
Did we read the same update, Vae? "The dregs of his soul are fighting me" absolutely happened in there. You just didn't recognize it for what it was, because it wasn't written so bluntly and inelegantly as a cliche of multiple personalities.

Even before Artemis shot him, the Renegade's thought processes were pushing at his behaviors:


The Renegade gets what he wanted.


The Renegade gets rid of a source of outside interference.


The Renegade continues to empower his partner.

This is what a real mind whammy looks like. It's not unexplained impulses contrary to your nature that you comply with regardless. It's having your nature altered so that you rationalize those impulses as something you think you would have done anyway.
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Wait, we missed the obvious part: if all she was doing was tacking on bits of Renegades personality to Grayven-16 to make him think he's renegade why would she need to know where to shoot?

Edit:
Vaermina said:
We already saw that with the actual Grayven winning.

Now we are at the "Renegade's ally is going to tack things onto Grayven till Grayven at least somewhat think's he's Renegade" stage.
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Why would Artemis need to know where to shoot then?
 
Vaermina said:
Because she's filling in the differences...
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That only requires a hit not were to hit?

Mr Zoat said:
Another in my arm. She's bypassing my armour. Ring, obey me!
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His first response to being attacked is not to do as Grayven-16 would do and charge her or use the omega effect. It's to act as Renegade would and use the ring, the same thing he admonished Renegade for doing during their fight.

Mr Zoat said:
I stare-. No, this is Artemis, I'm not going to-.
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Calling her Artemis and not 'the pretender's agent' is pretty clearly showing Renegades soul trying to take the driver's seat again. (also the y'know not killing her outright for shooting him)
 
The update clearly states both Grayven merged and its clear that is MORE renegrayven than Grayven 16 as aside the appearance (likely hair length) the result of the merger has all the Renegade equipment, his armor and his face. It's also readily apparent that the Renegade choose to influence Grayven to make the choices that would benefit him instead of engaging in an upfront soul battle and BECAUSE he did that he will likely end in control of everything without giving up much thanks to Artemis assistance.
 
Veganism (part 23)
  • Threadmarks
    • 1st September 2012
    16:11 GMT

    I…

    "Uuuugh."

    What… Happened..?

    "Are you you, or do I gotta shoot you again?"

    'Do I got'-?

    My face creases up. "Please don't use grammar like that around my children. I want them to-."

    I feel pressure on my broken-. No, not broken? Arm, as Artemis pulls me up. I Am Sworn To Carry Your Burdens, Apparently.

    "I'm sure it woulda been real clever, but you need to pretend to be the other guy when Sinthia gets back with the queen."

    I regain my feet and focus my eyes… Yes, eyes working, body… Not in any sort of pain and I should be. I feel a momentary impulse to check my wounds and face, but suppress it. The other Grayven wouldn't-.

    "Can you make a fake body, really fast?"

    "Why are there arrows sticking out of my-?"
    Clean The Carcass.
    I frown as the arrows sticking painlessly in my body in various places vanish. "You know I hear that, right?"

    "Focus, Grayven."

    "You know that's not actually my name? I just faked it to steal stuff from the Forever People, and then this all happened."

    "What?!" She blinks in astonishment, but recovers. "No. No, not-. Not urgent, but you're going to be explaining that later."

    "Sure thing, Artemis." I smile at her. I'm really lucky to have her. "I'm happy to share anything with you."

    Her face falls. "I think I might of shot you too hard."

    "Have shot-."

    "Body!"

    Ah… Right. Ring, I need a reasonable facsimile.

    By your command.

    Light strobes out of my ring, building up a fake body on a section of the floor. It's not biological and it won't pass any sort of investigation and… It's taking longer to do this than it used to.

    Wait, I-.

    "What?"

    "I remember arriving here. Ah, and activating the Orrery. And-. Artemis, what happened?"

    "I'm-. Not.. sure. Either you merged together and I made sure that you won, or you got erased by the Omega Effect and I shot the other Grayven until he turned into you."

    "Oh." That's… Bad.

    "Do you still remember you? I mean, Earth Grayven?"

    "I live in a mountain near Rifle, Colorado, and have adopted nine…"

    I suddenly get a flash of Grayven's actual interactions with Mortalla. Of her talking to him after one of the walks he took with Father-. Darkseid-. I think she was actually trying to mother him, though… Yes, I feel his feelings. He didn't even notice.

    "Nine children. And-. I think it's going to be easier for me to take control of Grayven's military… I don't think you're going to like this."

    "If I surrender to you. 'You'."

    "And probably if Lynne does as well. The Queen is going to be trickier, and then I've got to decide what we're actually going to do with the fleet."

    "You're not just gunna kill them all?"

    "We didn't kill all the Sheeda."

    "We needed the Sheeda."

    "I don't feel like slaughtering an entire people. Even if they kind of deserve it."

    "Again."

    "I don't feel like slaughtering an entire people, even if they kind of-"

    She chuckles quietly.

    "-deserve it. Mother Box, boom tube to Lynne."

    Ping.

    "I take your point, but these aren't the-"

    BOOM!

    "-citadelians or the psions. They're chancers in a violent universe. If wouldn't be right to exterminate them without at least giving them a chance to get onboard."

    She regards me curiously for a moment. Then something occurs to her. "And the Justice League's here."

    "And the Justice League's here. So, are you alright swearing allegiance?"

    She shrugs. "I basically have anyway."

    "Thank you. I-."

    Sinthia and the two surviving Zamarons escort a blood-splattered Queen Clryssa out of an adjacent corridor and bring her before me. I pause for a moment, then focus on.. Grayven's memories of how he dealt with these people.

    I turn slightly away, letting them bring the queen closer before I acknowledge-.

    Lynne steps through the boom tube.

    **Poppet, play along.**

    **Daddy?**

    **Probably. [Images of my fight and what Artemis said.] I'll need you to clue the queen in without the others picking up on it.**

    **Yes, Daddy.**

    Lynne walks towards me, stopping exactly the same distance away as Artemis is standing. I don't hear any telepathic traffic between them, but they both kneel at the same time. Now, if there was another New God here this would be a problem. This sort of pledge involved deliberately binding one soul as subject to the other. But since there's no one here who can pick up on it, I settle for stepping forward and touching each on the head.

    "Rise, my servants."

    "Lord Grayven." / "Lord Grayven." **I've told her.**

    Then I turn to the queen. I don't see anything in her manner that suggests that she's in any way reassured, but she's a reasonable politician and can probably control her own features to a degree.

    "Queen Clryssa. I have won. I can send the worlds of the Vega Systems crashing into one another at will and your throneworld lays under my guns. You will offer me your surrender, and then we will draft the peace treaty. Hopefully, no occupation will be necessary."

    "And if I refuse?"

    "If all of the suns of Vega were to go nova, you would have roughly a century to evacuate your entire empire before the radiation wave hit and this region was scoured of life. And then there are the casualties that the Crown Imperium would suffer as my fleet eliminated its military capacity. Surrender really is for the best."
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Mr Zoat said:
    "Are you you, or do I gotta shoot you again
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    Shoot him again just to make sure.

    Mr Zoat said:
    frown as the arrows sticking painlessly in my body in various places vanish. "You know I hear that, right?"
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    'I can hear'

    Mr Zoat said:
    You know that's not actually my name? I just faked it to steal stuff from the Forever People, and then this all happened."
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    Hot damn, you really are mind whammied.

    Mr Zoat said:
    What?!" She blinks in astonishment, but recovers. "No. No, not-. Not urgent, but you're going to be explaining that later."
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    It's about time.

    Mr Zoat said:
    Sure thing, Artemis." I smile at her. I'm really lucky to have her. "I'm happy to share anything with you."
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    Jesus, you are different.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "I'm-. Not.. sure. Either you merged together and I made sure that you won, or you got erased by the Omega Effect and I shot the other Grayven until he turned into you."

    "Oh." That's… Bad.
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    No shit Sherlock.

    Mr Zoat said:
    Queen Clryssa
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    Mr Zoat said:
    Queen Clryssa. I
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    'Claryssa'
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    "-citadelians or the psions.
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    I... think that these should be capitalized, but I've seen the argument before that they don't need to be if they (or any particular alien race) are being referred to as species instead of as a polity. Either way I figured I'd mention.
    Mr Zoat said:
    **Probably. [Images of my fight and what Artemis said.] I'll need you to clue the queen in without the others picking up on it.**
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    This seems a bit awkward for some reason. I can't recall the last time/if there was a previous example of sending images/impressions rather than dialogue through telepathy, but I somewhat remember it being done with a unenclosed scene/action description of sending the images rather than being contained within the telepathy quote/asterisk marks.
     
    Handlewithcare said:
    That may sound a little to reasonable for OldGrayven.

    Actually, would it be so bad to explain Paul conquered OldGrayven? I mean, what better proof he was the superior god of conquest could there be?
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    With the help of his ally that he built up.

    A conqueror is only as strong as their allies and companions are.
     
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