With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[AR760]

I disagree with the idea that counseling would be useless.

If Hades actually loves Persephone instead of it being an obsession, than her misery is his misery. Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own as the saying goes.

So if he actually loves Persephone, then he's been miserable for millennia because she's been miserable for millennia and doesn't want the misery to stop.

That's some real toxic self destructive shit there.

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Sometimes the misery you get from someone being around is less than the misery you'd experience if they were gone.

And Hades seems to be a likely candidate to feel that way when it comes to Persephone in this story.

 

[Wivk]

Hades isnt going to hurt these women, its just the implication.

 

[crazygrox]

"Does-? Does winter really happen because Demeter misses her?"

"No, of course not. Don't be ridiculous. Winter happens because that hemisphere of the planet is tilting away from the sun."

"No, I-. I know that. I just don't know how much of the stories are true."

"Demeter caused crop failures, but it wasn't over the whole of the world. If she'd tried that the gods of those regions would have stepped in and stopped her, which might have resulted in the Hellenes deciding to worship one of them instead of her."

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Y'see, now I'm wondering about the bronze age collapse.

According to what little I can find, there was an increase in temperatures beforehand, but a sharp decrease in temperatures and lack of precipitation in greece at the time of the abandonment of most palace centers in greece.
Getting bad enough that there's evidence of greek plants evolving to survive desert-like conditions.

The collapse hit Greece hard enough that there isn't any writing in the region for centuries afterwards. And the mixture of migration, crop failures, and disruption of trade networks(which were necessary to move the tin needed for bronze, which was critical for everything) brought down or caused major disruption in every civilization around the eastern Mediterranean.

It might have been possible to avoid being replaced with one of the other offended agriculture gods, despite also affecting their regions and pissing them off, if the greek pantheon and greek people had already clearly identified those gods as enemies, from previous conflicts(which would have inevitably been provoked by the Hellenistic gods). And it may have been a strategy to try to place external pressure on Zeus, from people who might actually be able to threaten him and his supporters, to get him to overturn his previous decision.

Is it possible that the real-world Demeter story is a distorted memory of religious explanations for the collapse?(it includes the god of death, and the anger of the gods causing crop failure)
In a mythology kitchen sink setting like DC would there be a relation?

Did you persuade Euanthe to spare subsistence farms?"

"No, but I gave the fruit-bearing plants around them a boost and created some new super fruits." She shakes her head. "Hugo sent some missionaries, but the people still there aren't interested in learning."

"Learning..? To live in the forest?"

"We're not ordering everyone to live in caves. The Accala have homes. But high-density settlements don't have a place in the civilization we're building. They're not good for the land or for humans."

"Um…"

"We're trying to show people a better way to live. You've seen alien civilizations; you can't tell me that every species destroys their natural habitat to industrialise."

"You'd like Alstair and O.

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Hrmm, I suspect that, if they could import alien plant-based domestic goods manufacturing, and keep up with the food needs of the populace without destructive industrialized farming, it might be possible to overcome the market disadvantages of spreading out by using digital marketplaces.
In which case actually living spread out in small groups would be psychologically healthy and strategically advantageous(it makes them hard to nuke or orbitally bombard).

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

Alternatives would be to do the destructive manufacturing and industrial farming on barren planets, which the Green doesn't care about (the Red might, but so far the only one that seems to get angry for the cows and chickens is TT Beast Boy).

Import your goods and such from off world. You'd still need to set up for a more urban housing then what they'd want in their plant based civilization, and handle garbage recycling better, but you'd be a bit closer to more modern living as we understand it.

 

[DbDRAKE]

I know it isn't cannon, but GAME Hades greek cthonic gods are so fucking charming that they have infiltrated my brain.

 

[Whenever Possible]

Since we're getting a better look at Olympian internal affairs, I would love to know if the Mycenaen mythos of the Olympians has any connection to the Olympians in WTR. Was Aphrodite actually Ishtar before she joined the pantheon? Or is the a Cat lord situation where the changed dreams from the Mycenaeans to the Hellenes retroactively changed the gods? Did the Myceneans not have the same myths in that world as irl, because the gods actually existed and could communicate with their worshippers? Is there a separate pantheon with similar names tied to Greece that has basically faded out of existence as a result of the bronze age collapse? I must know.

I ask here specifically because, to the best of my knowledge, the existence of the myth of Dread Persephone predates the existence of Hades as a myth.

 

[Mr Zoat]

30th October 2012
06:10 GMT +3

"So, your mother spoke to me."

Zagreus nods, awkwardly. "I imagine that she spoke to you about a divorce."

"Yes, she did. I want to ask you how you feel about it."

He shrugs unhappily. "I don't remember how old I was when I realised that… My parents' relationship wasn't right. It was a long time before Father had his revelation about how he could make something of Erebos. Mother… She wasn't ever cold towards me, or to Macaria or Melinoë. But Father spent a lot of time… Away from where she brought us up."

"I was mostly wondering about their relationship now."

"Father hopes that she could get interested in the gardens the awakened shades have created."

"Is she?"

"She.. was, a little. She just left whenever Father was there, and… Since he was justifiably proud of what his people had achieved with his aid and he wanted to share it with her, he was always there in the hope that she'd suddenly come around."

"Zagreus, I'm being asked to make a decision about something I know very little about. Is there..? Do you think, any chance that your mother-."

"No. Honestly, I… Think that Father should have divorced her centuries ago. At this point they're just making one another miserable."

"Has your mother given any indication as to what she would look for in a husband if she were unattached?"

"Ah-. No. That… The Gods of Olympus don't have no-fault divorce. If one party wrongs the other, things get settled in the wronged party's favour. She might have ended up being down here full time if she'd.. done anything-."

"No, no, I meant, in theory. I'm trying to work out whether or not she might have accepted your father as her husband if they'd had a better introduction."

"Do.. you.. have a time machine?"

"No, and that wouldn't work anyway. I changed the way time travel works so that it generates parallel timelines if you change anything significant. I was thinking, what would happen if we dosed them with the waters of the Lethe?"

"The whole.. point of the Lethe is to erase memories prior to rebirth. They would be mental infants. I.. don't.. think that's a good solution."

"How about a reduced dose?"

"What, exactly, are you trying to do?"

"Ideally, I'd want to remove every memory she had of interacting with him, and let him woo her from a clean slate. Obviously, she would have to agree to that in order for it to happen."

"She would forget Melinoë and Macaria. And me."

"That's why I'm hoping that it's possible to narrow the effect. Hecate's people have been working with it."

"They were making it into normal water, not anything else."

"But that still required them to understand how it works. And if they don't know how to do it, we could ask Mnemosyne and Metis to chip in."

"You're still talking about erasing thousands of years worth of memories."

"What is Persephone's contribution to human civilisation?"

"She increases plant vitality and fertility during spring."

"But she isn't the reason for it. Plants would still grow without her."

His expression hardens. "I don't appreciate you implying that my mother has wasted her life."

"Normally I'd say that if the person doing it was happy then they weren't wasting it even if they didn't help anyone else. But from the sounds of things she isn't."

He gestures towards the orchard with his right hand. "Do you think that Erebos would be this verdant if Father wasn't trying to impress her?"

"I'm not talking about rewriting history, I'm talking about rewriting-. Honestly, yes, because he was trying to create the most perfect kingdom ever having been influenced by Enlightenment European ideas, which would probably have included leisure gardens, but we're getting off the point. An objective valuation of Persephone's life isn't relevant. The fact that she's not happy and wants a change is."

He hesitates for a moment.

"Yes."

"Do you have a better idea? Because if you do I'll be extremely happy to consider it."

"I just don't think that their relationship can be fixed."

"Do you know how to convince your father of that fact?"

"I think he knows. I think-. He.. must."

"Just get him to say it, then I can talk to Hephaestaean and we can get the divorce formalised. Off you go."

Zagreus's doesn't move. After a few seconds, his face starts to fall.

"'Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently.'"

"Yep. He loves her, despite her never returning that affection. He has done for millennia, even during his worse times. He isn't going to change now, because there isn't any.. further level of rejection she would go to. What could have changed today that might make him rethink?"

"Nothing, curse you."

"What are you cursing me for? My personal life is very simple."

"What do you want me to do?"

"Talk to your parents about what's happening, and ask what they'd be willing to consider regarding extreme measures at marriage counselling. This isn't going away and there's no point in putting it off any further."

"And what will you do?"

"I'm going to talk to Hecate and Company about what can be achieved with the water of the Lethe. And reassure her about the rehabilitation of the Titans and a dozen other things. I suggest talking to your mother first, as she'll want the reassurance that something is actually happening."

"I agree. I will speak with you tomorrow."

 

[boo600]

So, this is going better than I thought... but why does Zagreus curse him? *blinking confusion*

 

[Darko]

"Ideally, I'd want to remove every memory she had to interacting with him

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"of interacting"

And this honestly feels like a stupid idea.

and let him woo her from a clean slate. Obviously, she would have to agree to that in order for it to happen."

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Assuming she wants to have her mind messed with.

Granted, like I said in a previous post, if she wants this to happen then it can honestly be more like a tragedy similar to someone using drugs or a lobotomy to deal with their pain.

"Talk to your parents about what's happening, and ask what they'd be willing to consider regarding extreme measures at marriage counselling. This isn't going away and there's no point in putting it off any further

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The most positive way I can see this going is Hades realizing how much his wife hates being near him that she'd be willing to erase her own memories, then he'd agree to a divorce.

He has done for millennia

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"done so"

even during his worse

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"worst"

isn't going too change now,

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"going to"

 

[DonLyn]

So, this is going better than I thought... but why does Zagreus curse him? *blinking confusion*

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Because OL made him aware of something he does not want be true and was refusing to acknowledge even to himself.

 

[B00ki5h]

Then talk to Hera goddess of marriage, divine counseling should be in her wheelhouse.

 

[NightmareWarden]

Extreme:

1. Of a place, the most remote, farthest or outermost.
2. In the greatest or highest degree; intense.
3. Excessive, or far beyond the norm.quotations
4. Drastic, or of great severity.
5. Of sports, difficult or dangerous; performed in a hazardous environment.

Hephaestus' decision to take the red pill was extreme. Athena tipped the vote decisively. Persephone may be willing to take an extreme option if her children strongly support it. But Paul lacks the insight into Persephone to lead her down the path to that decision.

How might Persephone feel, think, or act if someone close to her asked "If you get what you think of as an ideal divorce from Hades, what happens next? Who will you be and what will you want?"
I… It is hard to imagine the tangled feeling in her, the depth of her unhappiness. Will it be her new cage after a divorce?

 

[Mr Zoat]

"of interacting"
"going to"

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Thank you, corrected.

"done so"
"worst"

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I think that these are correct.

 

[Whenever Possible]

"No, and that wouldn't work anyway. I changed the way time travel works so that it generates parallel timelines if you change anything significant.

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This line being just an off-hand comment is so very Paul.

Nearly any person who heard that line would almost immediately go "falloutholdupmeme.jpg" And he's just pushing past that to go all "Hey, let's try to use magic river water to erase several thousand years of emotional trauma intrinsic to Persephone's marriage and life so that we don't cause political problems for the omnissiah, so I can get back to looking for John Constantine."

 

[Nervaqus987]

And reassure her about the rehabilitation of the Titans and a dozen other things.

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"And when I'm done with that, I'm going to track down John Constantine and beat him unconscious with the nearest blunt object. Because I know he's behind my suddenly extremely full schedule."

 

[Splinterface]

This is fucked up. I would hate, with vitriolic passion, anyone who fucking memory wiped me just so I could "get off to good start" with someone who kidnapped me. This brings up two problems; 1) How does Paul think in any way Persephone is going to go for this, or 2) is he going to do this without consent? This seems especially heinous because of what Paul has just done recently. Imagine if after Diana turned Zeus down, everyone just started going "hey, how about we just memorywipe her and Zeus and see if they get along better". I also don't know where Paul got the idea that they would even possibly be better if they got off to a good start, which is very bad given what he's gonna try and do. Persephone was forced to be married to Hades for centuries and he loves her. Great. That's on Hades and in no way entitles Hades for a second go around or justify doing this to Persephone.

all of this is not even touching the fact that we are who we are because of our memories, and Persephones life has been pretty much defined by this, so they'd have to remove/heavily censor thousands of years of memories, which at that point you've got pretty much a different person, and is also kinda murder.

sorry if I seem touchy about this, but I'm touchy regarding the continuation of self/consciousness and memories role in that.

 

[hance1986]

He isn't going too change now, because there isn't any.. further level of rejection she would go to.

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to

 

[AmericanNumbers]

"Do.. you.. have a time machine?"

"No, and that wouldn't work anyway. I changed the way time travel works so that it generates parallel timelines if you change anything significant. I was thinking, what would happen if we dosed them with the waters of the Lethe?"

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And Paul wonders why Gods treat him with fear and respect. Dropping: "I changed a basic function of reality " in a conversation like it's nothing. LOL.

 

[Prince Charon]

Just as there are victimless crimes, there are crimes without perpetrators. Persephone was raped, but Hades is and was not a rapist.

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While I agree that Hades was not the rapist in this setting, I would not call it perpetratorless. Zeus was the perpetrator of the trauma that she experienced, even though he did not have sex with her.

(As for whether we should call the trauma that Persephone experienced 'rape,' that's a mater of semantics and legalism. Most people will call it rape because that's the nearest equivalent without worrying about the exact dictionary or legal definitions of the words being used, while others insist on using the 'correct' definitions in an argument with people who are using the colloquial or ideological ones.)

 

[Darko]

This is fucked up. I would hate, with vitriolic passion, anyone who fucking memory wiped me just so I could "get off to good start" with someone who kidnapped me.

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Yeah.

How does Paul think in any way Persephone is going to go for this

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I don't think he thought all that much about it.

Despite his literal ability to read people, Paul is pretty terrible at actually reading people.

Or he's hoping that she's desperate enough to get rid of the fear and pain that she'd be willing to erase her own mind.

r 2) is he going to do this without consent

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He told Zegreus they'll need her consent, so there's that.

 

[Splinterface]

He told Zegreus they'll need her consent, so there's that.

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well that's something I guess Bar is currently on the floor

 

[ZzzSlothzzZ]

(Plays "Where's Wally" OP)
Where where where where's Wally Constantine?

 

[Darko]

well that's something I guess Bar is currently on the floor

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Try the basement.

 

[Ct613hulu]

If they are going to explore mental alteration than wouldn't it be far simpler to make Hades forgot whatever made him become so obsessed with Persephone? This seems like a far more just course of action as it doesn't place the burden of solving the situation solely with Persephone. The only thing keeping Persephone in her present state of suffering is Hades unwillingness to place the happiness of the women he claims to love and the safety of his subjects above his personal obsession. If a sacrifice is needed to resolve this situation than he should be the one to give it.

I would also assume that this described memory erasure essentially involves a near-complete personality erasure of the current version of Persephone. She has spent thousands of years living in fear of Hades and hating being married to him. Removing these memories and the feelings connected to them would almost certainly result in the formulation with a radically different personality.

It seems as if this memory erasure plan is roughly the same as a husband pressuring their wife into killing themselves and then using her spare parts to create a new woman who he intends to manipulate into becoming his perfect bride. There could conceivably be a utilitarian argument that this plan is the best course of action for humanity and the Greek Pantheon. That doesn't stop it from being deeply creepy and incredibly unfair for Persephone.

I think that it is also disturbing to consider what will happen if the new version of Persephone is unwilling to pursue a relationship with Hades. I can easily imagine her rejecting Hades even without a personal recollection of how he mistreated her for thousands of years. It is not as if she ever showed any sign of being interested in Hades or only refrained from developing an emotional connection due to their early misunderstanding. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that they would be a good match and considerable evidence against it given how Hades was unable to make any headway after thousands of years of constant effort. Would Hades be willing to finally let her go free if this new version of Persephone rejects him or would she be forced to go through the entire process again until she gives up and submits to even more severe mental alterations?
​

 

[timeForced]

But...the obvious answer is to convince Hades that if he truly loves her, he needs to stop making her miserable and accept her request for a divorce? No one has the right to force another into eternal bondage.

And if Hades so hates the concept that he reacts...ill-favoravly, does he truly deserve to be God if the Dead? Him being petty and non-cooperative would be one thing, but through all of this Zoat has hung a pretty heavy storm cloud of "if the God if the Dead gets bent out of shape over one woman refusing to marry him, all of the souls of the dead go to hell, or invade the living world, or some other unspecified disaster.". But Paul literally just dealt with that exact problem, only fractionally as bad, by deposing Zeus.

There's some real double think there

 

[Mastigos2]

"Do.. you.. have a time machine?"

"No, and that wouldn't work anyway. I changed the way time travel works so that it generates parallel timelines if you change anything significant. I was thinking, what would happen if we dosed them with the waters of the Lethe?"

"The whole.. point of the Lethe is to erase memories prior to rebirth. They would be mental infants. I.. don't.. think that's a good solution."

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I feel like even a god should be giving OL a few strange looks for casually dropping "oh I changed the fundamental mechanics of how time travel works"

 

[Wivk]

Normally getting cursed isnt a big deal, but i would be wary about getting cursed by actual gods in person, especially the ones from vindictive pantheons.

 

[Prince Charon]

well that's something I guess Bar is currently on the floor

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Paul is a utilitarian who has gone a bit far from the sort of mindset most of the readers are used to dealing with, so his decisions and attitudes are going to be strange in places. As someone with an interest in psychology (not a degree, just an interest), studying his behavior is part of why I still read this fic.

If they are going to explore mental alteration than wouldn't it be far simpler to make Hades forgot whatever made him become so obsessed with Persephone? This seems like a far more just course of action as it doesn't place the burden of solving the situation solely with Persephone. The only thing keeping Persephone in her present state of suffering is Hades unwillingness to place the happiness of the women he claims to love and the safety of his subjects above his personal obsession. If a sacrifice is needed to resolve this situation than he should be the one to give it.
​

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Case in point: Of the two (Hades and Persephone), which do you think Paul and Hephaestean get more utility out of staying the same? OL being a utilitarian, that's the one he's going to judge as it being less ethical to change the personality of. (I don't like the phrasing of this paragraph, but I'm blanking on how to make it more clear and accurate.)

 

[Ngamer11]

I feel like this will lead to another lecture from Menalippe.

 

[Darko]

But...the obvious answer is to convince Hades that if he truly loves her, he needs to stop making her miserable and accept her request for a divorce? No one has the right to force another into eternal bondage.

And if Hades so hates the concept that he reacts...ill-favoravly, does he truly deserve to be God if the Dead? Him being petty and non-cooperative would be one thing, but through all of this Zoat has hung a pretty heavy storm cloud of "if the God if the Dead gets bent out of shape over one woman refusing to marry him, all of the souls of the dead go to hell, or invade the living world, or some other unspecified disaster.". But Paul literally just dealt with that exact problem, only fractionally as bad, by deposing Zeus.

There's some real double think there

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Hades hasn't hurt Paul or tried to hurt anyone Paul cares about, so he doesn't have the same extreme reaction he had like when he chose to get rid of Zeus.