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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Massgamer said:
Do love how fighting has to be done smartly, figuring out enemy based on symbolism and such. Paul just can't steamroll things in conceptional world.
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I think Paul is more than capable of brute forcing all those fights. Diana and everyone else after all didnt want him to figh Zeus as they fully expected him to be able kill him even when powered by Titans. Its just for some reason Paul is now concerned about possible mind control of collective american psyche into better shape that would come from him simply going Doom Slayer on all Symbols of Evil America?

Like in previous parts they hid from manifestation of american military-industrial complex. While Paul is fully capable of soloing space armadas that have many times more firepower that even DC USA. And with him getting better at Avrice manipulation or New God/Avrice connection he dont even have exuse of not being able to fight because their magic.
 
012345 said:
I think Paul is more than capable of brute forcing all those fights. Diana and everyone else after all didnt want him to figh Zeus as they fully expected him to be able kill him even when powered by Titans. Its just for some reason Paul is now concerned about possible mind control of collective american psyche into better shape that would come from him simply going Doom Slayer on all Symbols of Evil America?

Like in previous parts they hid from manifestation of american military-industrial complex. While Paul is fully capable of soloing space armadas that have many times more firepower that even DC USA. And with him getting better at Avrice manipulation or New God/Avrice connection he dont even have exuse of not being able to fight because their magic.
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When you get powerful enough you stop focusing on the most efficient way to win and start focusing on getting the most optimal victory.
 
woweed said:
Mind control is bad.
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Or in this case if Paul overpowers the manifestation of American's military might do all the soliders lose confidence, the guns stop working, some other unexpected results?

The stuff in the asslands are bad things, but most of them are tied to good or important things. If you just go destroying everything recklessly it's hard to predict the collateral damage.
 
FreeGod said:
Or in this case if Paul overpowers the manifestation of American's military might do all the soliders lose confidence, the guns stop working, some other unexpected results?

The stuff in the asslands are bad things, but most of them are tied to good or important things. If you just go destroying everything recklessly it's hard to predict the collateral damage.
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To be fair: It's Paul. Not like potential ramifications have stopped him before. But fair enough.
 
iamnuff said:
I love conceptual shit like this. This is what A Practical Guide is all about.

Seeing JFK stop them from using the nukes just by pointing out that they're not allowed to do that is cool.
The Brass would have absolutely used that nuclear football. They don't have the right. they're not allowed to use nukes without the president's permission, but they have enough conceptual weight that they'd probably have been able to somehow get away with it anyway.

Except there was the one person in the whole country who has the authority to call them out and remind them that they're not permitted to do that, and him simply saying that was enough to if not actually prohibit it, at the very least force them to hesitate.
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Nah, I'm pretty sure that normally the brass would struggle to use the nuclear football, but he managed to trick the president into saying that he wanted it.
So having a nuclear device tossed at him(and getting blown up) would be something the president would have asked for.
 
Tyrantviewer said:
Probably not a love elemental, but he probably wants to be turned into something other than a demon- Paul should get him and Richard Simons to work together on such a project to benefit them both- Surprisingly neither of them are in hell fairly- Simons is only their due to being forced to use Nergal's body since his was fried and constantine's had cancer, and Demon constantine was created to take on constantine's debt, and that of the sinner constantine added to flesh him out- Frankly I don't think either John would deserve hell without selling their soul, it goes wrong often but just How many people has he saved at great personal risk?

I wonder what route they will go- more fruits from eden? The silver city is probably guarding them better now. I guess Love elemental isn't off the table for Demon Constantine but it just feels wrong, and they don't have a similar artifact to the star saphire to do other emotional elemental conversions... Paul could probably do an orange conversion but I don't think Avarice Elemental Constantine is an improvement to Paul in terms of risks, and D-Constantine probably would be hesitant to tie himself to an energy source that Paul is so good with, and has a giant snake enbodiment that could eat him.

Chaos and Order are options
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While Demon-Constantine life sucks through no fault of his own he was still an active participant in an invasion led by the First of the Fallen. I doubt Paul or anyone else will be willing to overlook that and help him out. And making another Constantine tied to Order or especially Chaos sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
 
Grimnar said:
Is this bait? It has to be.

Fun fact, the American Military is actually underfunded to fullfill all the duties it's been given. It's a feature creep of their duties by the government, not the military being hilariously overbloated with funds.
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Indeed. Why is the money for prosthetics research or better cryptography coming out of the military budget? I mean I get the tangential connection, but still....
 
Pinklestia said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

They are NOT underfunded, if the money is not managed correctly that's a different deal.
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Debating this would be a total Rule 8 violation, but let's just consider the sheer levels of responsibility that have been placed on the US military since, oh, say, 1946. In particular, the defense of other nations that have chosen to interpret their treaties with the US as meaning that they no longer need to fund their own indigenous militaries and can instead spend the money on other issues.

That listing is only correct in terms of gross expenditures; when you factor in all the things that each country's military is required to spend money on, the order changes up significantly. Saying that the US military is overfunded is, frankly, exactly the same thing as claiming that the Royal Navy, before WW1, made the British military overfunded. (And, just as happened to the RN, the USN is slowly losing its battle against its longest-standing, most difficult adversary, the Office of Management and Budget that constantly tries to force it to do more with less, every single year.)
 
Mr Zoat said:
A face that would probably mean something to someone who knew more about the minutia of American military history than me.
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Maybe surprisingly, there's no obvious good candidate. Most of our problems maintaining civilian control have been with the FBI and CIA, not the military per se. Douglas Macarthur, maybe? But probably just literal General Ripper.

Darko said:
Hmm, I seem to remember that during the Civil War, Sam was split into two different beings that fought each other, so maybe Bad Sam was his Confederate self.
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Correct; Johnny Reb and Billy Yank. Canon says they merged again during Reconstruction, but if Sam was busy playing the part of the ungiven mules, that doesn't sound right anyway.

I wonder if they can pull some conceptual judo with the 'Lost Cause' on this guy...
 
PDV said:
Maybe surprisingly, there's no obvious good candidate. Most of our problems maintaining civilian control have been with the FBI and CIA, not the military per se. Douglas Macarthur, maybe? But probably just literal General Ripper.



Correct; Johnny Reb and Billy Yank. Canon says they merged again during Reconstruction, but if Sam was busy playing the part of the ungiven mules, that doesn't sound right anyway.

I wonder if they can pull some conceptual judo with the 'Lost Cause' on this guy...
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Maybe that's why he's around! Lost Cause = Return of Johnny Reb, hence this guy. As for the first point, my guess is that The Brass is General Groves, who is referenced later.
 
rdfox said:
total Rule 8 violation
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My explanation of how the money is grossly wasted would unfortunately be a violation of that rule, so have a movie clip instead.



And that's just ONE EXAMPLE of your Tax Dollars at work. A political satire example but that perfectly applies to a real airplane we cannot mention.
 
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Mmm, I do love a good conceptual fight. The Soviet uniform was excellent, and I loved things like the Veil of Legitimacy and the Nuclear Football being an actual football.

Dang, Bad Sam. This is going to be interesting, especially if he's the embodiment of the Lost Cause and the general genocide/evil of the US's past.

And TBH even if Paul wasn't concerned about collateral, I don't think he could brute force this.
 
Bud-E said:
While Demon-Constantine life sucks through no fault of his own he was still an active participant in an invasion led by the First of the Fallen. I doubt Paul or anyone else will be willing to overlook that and help him out. And making another Constantine tied to Order or especially Chaos sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
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Depending on how it would work, I could see original john pawning off his new power baggage to Demon constantine- if it purges demonic influence and leave that contantine a better person, and the whole balance of power thing the lords of order and chaos have could mean that Order or Chaos constantine would be banished from earth to trouble them all no more.

One really out there idea would be to recruit him for Hesphestean, to fill in some minor divine role- cutting him off from Hell and putting him under supervision, though I struggle to think of what position he could take. That could work better for Richard Simmons though- Hades' recruting him to help process souls and supplanting his connection to hell with a connection to Hades.

Maybe Demon constantine could make the order and chaos possiblilities work if he and John play with the incarnation magic, to make it a temporary thing, long enough to make him not a demon any more at least. Or maybe do a fusion dance and mingle traits and then manage the whole thing better?

Really this is all highly speculative until we find Original John
 
Mr Zoat said:
So was George Washington, and I don't hear you complaining about him.
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That may have been Washington's country of citizenship in the beginning portion of his life, but he was born in Virginia. Moreover he did not identify as British, especially later on in life, and it's a question of what extent he ever considered himself British given how many born in the colonies oftentimes associated more with their birth colony than England to begin with.

In the conceptual world too, Washington's willingness to repudiate everything English, and his continual shying away from British traditions like Kingship and such make the statement of Washington being British as something applicable here feel questionable at best.

He never went to Britain I believe. Received no education in Britain. And didn't even speak a British dialect of English. Moreover he was feeling oppositional emotions towards the British and developed a disdain for Britain even before the War began

The Declaration of Independence itself was and is something symbolic enough to genuinely push back against the idea that the signatories especially, but really anyone in the United States could be considered British after that point.

Even more so after America won the Revolutionary War/War for Independence
 
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Mr Zoat said:
"It's not worth my time to winkle you out."
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"Winkle" is exceptionally strongly British. Few Americans even know the word in the first place, much less would use it in a sentence. If you want something in an American dialect, "wrangle" might fit, or you could just use "force" or "drag".
 
woweed said:
Maybe that's why he's around! Lost Cause = Return of Johnny Reb, hence this guy. As for the first point, my guess is that The Brass is General Groves, who is referenced later.
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Nah, definitely not Groves. Groves was the general in charge of the Manhattan Project and was being referenced for that. The face of the Brass should be someone who made decisions routing around the Presiden, the Cabinet, and Congress; stuff like the Bay of Pigs or Iran-Contra.

Groves didn't; the closest he came was being involved in picking which cities to hit, and even there he deferred to the Secretary of War and, when he couldn't convince him to allow nuking Kyoto, went around him only to take Kyoto off the conventional bombing list. Groves was the military working as intended, with civilian control ultimately being decisive.

Really, what we should expect is that the Brass is actually a Spook in power armor. The Spooks are the real scary challenge to civilian control and have been since the 60s. Technology hasn't helped that either, it's definitely gotten worse since the Cold War ended, but that's getting too close to Rule 8 so let's not get into that.
 
Xepeyon said:
That may have been Washington's country of citizenship in the beginning portion of his life, but he was born in Virginia. Moreover he did not identify as British, especially later on in life, and it's a question of what extent he ever considered himself British given how many born in the colonies oftentimes associated more with their birth colony than England to begin with.

In the conceptual world too, Washington's willingness to repudiate everything English, and his continual shying away from British traditions like Kingship and such make the statement of Washington being British as something applicable here feel questionable at best.

He never went to Britain I believe. Received no education in Britain. And didn't even speak a British dialect of English. Moreover he was feeling oppositional emotions towards the British and developed a disdain for Britain even before the War began

The Declaration of Independence itself was and is something symbolic enough to genuinely push back against the idea that the signatories especially, but really anyone in the United States could be considered British after that point.

Even more so after America won the Revolutionary War/War for Independence
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Agreed. The colonial americans definitely werent british by that point. They had created their own culture and nation even before then while still being British subjects.

Imo it qould be like calling the Irish british.
 
The Military-Industrial Complex has a specific meaning- an informal alliance of the military and related government departments with defense industries that is held to influence government policy.

So the Brass should reflect a guy who jumped into bed with the defense companies to take away from the military being about protecting American interests to a money making operation for private interests.
 
Radix said:
Agreed. The colonial americans definitely werent british by that point. They had created their own culture and nation even before then while still being British subjects.

Imo it qould be like calling the Irish british.
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*Violently suppresses the urge to commit a potential Rule 8 violation* Although it would be more a Rule 1 or 5 violation at that point
 
Dear John (part 21)
  • Threadmarks
    • 7th November 2012
    Roughly 10:58 GMT -5

    Okay, new Americanan, and I've got no idea what he represents. He looks like Uncle Sam, though his hair's a little longer and… More dishevelled? His smile is a little more manic as well, giving the discordant impression that he heard a hilarious joke not too long ago and is about to share it with me.

    "Who, then?"

    "Boy, ah am disappointed. The way Boss Smiley's been carrying on about you, ah thought you'd have me all added up the moment ah stepped down from that there chair."

    "One of his favourites, then. Or an aspect of him?"

    "Ah suppose you could say that we're all aspects of him. And we get along well enough. Never been one for changing things that aren't broken, though ah am not averse to doing some breaking."

    He hesitates for a moment, regarding me curiously.

    "Perhaps the issue is one of a difference in culture on the other side of the Atlantic. Allow me to illuminate the matter."

    He takes his hat off his head and taps the stovepipe. It immediately inverts, the horizontal bars being replaced by vertical stripes and the ring of stars moving to the rim. He looks at it for a moment, smiling, then puts it back up upon his head.

    "That clear things up for-."

    "Johnny Reb. How have you outlived your country?"

    "A people, a political community, are not defined by lines on a map, boy. Elsewise, every nigger born in the country would be the equal of every white man. It's culture. And while I will admit that I have taken a licking, I'm going to hang on until the final bell."

    He glances behind me as The Brass fires its remaining cannons, a colossal pillar of dust and rubble erupting from the ground!

    "People are impressionable creatures. Tell a lie often enough and they forget the truth. Even when the truth is written down plain as day." He reaches up to tap his hat with his right forefinger. "There are still folks today who say this was about freedom from the Federal Government, as if slavery wasn't guaranteed under the constitution. That's where The Brass's chains come from, in case you were-"

    CLANG!

    "-wondering."

    Chains!

    "Ah seem to recall hearing that you aren't entirely of pure stock yourself."

    Warning!

    Yes, yes, I know.

    I'm wrapped in chains from top to bottom. I can still see out through the gaps, but I focused too much on Johnny and lost sight of-! Can't just slide out as there isn't physically enough space, except-. Ring, can my armour stand the pressure these chains are applying?

    Armour can withstand highest demonstrated chain pressure.

    Which would make sense as the chains slaves wear aren't supposed to actually kill them, they're supposed to bind and suppress them. Drop construct armour and make my environmental shield skin tight.

    Compliance.

    Clank!

    "I see you know your place."

    It's uncomfortable but survivable. And the drain has… Stopped?

    No, but it is reduced.

    Extrude a rope under my right foot. Is the additional drain measurable?

    Yes. One hundred eighteen-. One hundred sixteen-.

    Got it, drill down.

    Compliance.

    Try and find a corridor. If you can't, send it towards the Memorial through the ground. Show me what it's seeing.

    Compliance.

    Not a lot, and then… We're through. Tunnel, some lighting, lots of worms moving with a purpose, some carrying things while others are just sort of oozing over the equipment. Equipment leading toooo…

    Oh no.

    Leading to Uncle Sam, strapped to a gurney, chest bare and with the left side… Cut open. Tubes of… Something, are being fed into it and flow from it. Not sure what's happening there but I doubt that it was done with friendly intentions.

    So, objectives: free Uncle Sam and have him beat the stuffing out of Johnny Reb. Can't do much else about Boss Smiley in this regard. Then… Get out, with Uncle Sam's help.

    Ring, plug into the tubes going in and find out what they are.

    Compliance.

    The chains holding me part slightly, freeing part of my helmet. Johnny Reb walks closer, some sort-. That's a branding iron, and the brand is red hot.

    "Been a good long while since ah've gotten the opportunity to use one of these on a living man."

    Glowing red iron is… Probably not going to go through my armour, but it's magical and I shouldn't assume things. The worms don't really have eyes, and-. Plug in there-.

    Blood and powered kaahuite. Where did he get that-? They're pumping blood mixed with solid pieces of evil into him. Because that makes it count as his blood? Blood type… A Positive, naturally. Install filter and disintegrator.

    Compliance.

    "I've been branded before."

    "Then you're used goods, boy. Can't get full price for yah!"

    "Slavery violates the Thirteenth Amendment."

    "But you must remember that ah'm cut from a different cloth, and that Article One Section Nine of the Confederate Constitution describes things rather differently. Doubled down in Article Four in case somebody forgot."

    "Alright, but I don't understand why that makes you align with Boss Smiley. By the standards of the time there wasn't anything particularly corrupt about owning people."

    Blood is flowing back into Uncle Sam's body and I think it's time to rush the final stages.

    "Corruption is a tool, boy. Boss Smiley opposes change that he doesn't control. Why would ah want to change a perfect civilisation? Why would ah want less control?"

    "So… Just to check, you aren't part of the magical reflection of the United States of America? You're separate?"

    "You'd best believe it, boy. Now-."

    "Then I have no reason to leave you alive."

    Construct chains lash out below us, worms dragged to the side of the room as a construct chirurgeon quickly and carefully removes the outflow in Sam's heart. His eyes start focusing almost at once… Yes, low blood pressure, best leave the in tubes in for a moment. No easy way to get rid of kaahuite but I can work on that later. Blood pressure… Normalising, that'll have to do. Tubes out heart sealed chest closed.

    "And how exactly-?" His eyes dip down. "Your feet are glowing, boy."

    He lunges, brand burning into the armour of my helmet as I redirect a construct upwards from below, and smile at him.

    "So are yours."

    Construct hands punch up through the pavement and drag him down!
     
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