With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Handlewithcare · Jun 30, 2022

I'm a bit of an asshole. I really want Paul to tell them he's been to the Silver City, get an Angel to back him up and tell them the spurce is gone. Just to see their reactions.

Mr Zoat · Jun 30, 2022

Handlewithcare said:
I'm a bit of an asshole. I really want Paul to tell them he's been to the Silver City, get an Angel to back him up and tell them the spurce is gone. Just to see their reactions.

The what is gone?

Darko · Jun 30, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
The what is gone?

I think he meant the Source.

Vaermina · Jun 30, 2022

Windona said:
No, but in Mandated the city was still in the Dream but allowed to interact with the real world in a way that benefited them both. And Paul is usually pretty good at managing stuff like this.

No? LePaul is horrible at managing stuff like this.

His MO is literally no more then dropping the problem on others and then running off to chase whatever bit of shiny caught his attention.

Coda · Jun 30, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"You want to get through-?" / "You can to go through-!"

I think the second one has an error in it. I'm not sure if you meant them to be different, but if you did I think there's a word missing.

Mr Zoat · Jun 30, 2022

Coda said:
I think the second one has an error in it. I'm not sure if you meant them to be different, but if you did I think there's a word missing.

Thank you, corrected.

BartlettMagic · Jun 30, 2022

iamnuff said:
I don't remember the alternate version he's talking about, but as soon as Demon John got picked up, my first thought was that he should suggest that the Caliph go get 'the orange one' instead, because he loves doing stuff like this.
Themyscira, Atlantis, Mars.

He loves getting alien cultures in contact with each-other for trade purposes.

i really like it when he explores these co-existing similar-but-different culture and magical traditions. in addition to what you mentioned, Paragon has also been directly involved in the reorganization of Hell- which, by it's nature, would mean that Hell's policies and direction re: Earth/mortals have adjusted as well. my favorite is what i've learned about the Green.

Mr Zoat said:
The what is gone?

why, the Spurce Murse! the Dream's largest airborne conveyance!

NightmareWarden · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
John confirmed that Timothy Hunter is already ensconced in the White School, but apparently they're really picky about who they take and he wasn't sure they'd want Zatanna.

Oooookay, forget about my Delirium theory then. Where the heck does White School even get competent staff from, assuming they don't use golems with knowledge stored in them?

Duke Long · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
What would you do if you found yourself caught in a lesser storm.

Missing '?', I think.

Mr Zoat said:
I can treat it has being confirmed

'as'

Mr Zoat said:
coins off my belt and laying in on

'it'

Stsword · Jul 1, 2022

NightmareWarden said:
Oooookay, forget about my Delirium theory then. Where the heck does White School even get competent staff from, assuming they don't use golems with knowledge stored in them?

The White School doesn't have staff.

Students are taught by other students.

Now those students might be centuries old mages who have studied the magic arts of dozens of planets, but at the White School you never stop learning magic.

At least in Books of Magic.

Zoat, as author, has of course the prerogative to change what he likes for his story.

HeroineRule34Guy · Jul 1, 2022

Stsword said:
The White School doesn't have staff.

Students are taught by other students.

Now those students might be centuries old mages who have studied the magic arts of dozens of planets, but at the White School you never stop learning magic.

If Zoat really wants to show off his DC lore, he can use these guys from Day of Vengeance. Spectre hasn't had his temper tantrum yet, and maybe never will, so they should be around.

m_ERuQuyh3Pspbv5P9YziR5VXG1-N1TAcgNJEkHX6hs8lB3Y3EKtafSx_x0zTgqOm22hXhLtiEyFwG5TCqsZpcsvS1dsuFuAKcI1K176enFqJrWRoD16fG6ALSeaWA1np1AaRBqqAw=s1600

Being able to hold off the Spectre for an hour is *very* impressive.

Stsword · Jul 1, 2022

HeroineRule34Guy said:
Being able to hold off the Spectre for an hour is *very* impressive.

Apparently they neglected their kabbalism.

The Israeli Ramban of the Hayoth once fought the Spectre.

Well not much of a fight, Spectre wasn't allowed to harm a hair on his head.

I guess theurgy has its perks.

Handlewithcare · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
The what is gone?

YOU HEARD ME!

Mr Zoat · Jul 1, 2022

8th November 2012
18:16 GMT +3

"It's really not that complicated, thaumaturgically speaking. People dream all the time, and anyone can learn to gain lucidity in their dreams. It would simply be a matter of matching volunteers to dreamers."

The dream of Haroun ibn Mohammed ibn Abdullah ibn Mohammed ibn Ali Ben Abdullah ibn Abbas, Caliph of Baghdad, doesn't look entirely convinced. Though I suspect that's more a negotiating tool than anything else; I know that a version of him either agreed to this or flat out suggested it himself.

"That would not grant them flesh."

"They lost that when your material self made his pact with Morpheus. Such pacts cannot simply be undone." I pause. "Not after so much time. If you were all still alive, I… It may have been possible."

"That sounds more like what I want. Speak of it, O sage of avarice."

"Your majesty, your material self, much diminished by sending all that was greatest about his realm into the Dream, died a very long time ago. What became of his soul is a matter for Allah, but from that moment you and he stopped being the same person. Like… Conjoined twins joined at the shoulder and then separated by a chirurgeon. Could they be reattached? Yes, maybe, with great difficulty. But as time passes and scar tissue forms… Or if one dies…"

"Speak more."

"I am a Hellenist. I do not claim that nothing exists above and beyond the kings of the angelic hosts; I have borne witness to feats of theurgy that cannot have come from anywhere else. But I personally worship beings who are closer to mortality. The chief amongst them is Hephaestaean, God of Artifice and Technology. He has produced a mechanism into which a mortal soul can be entrapped, which allows them to walk once more upon the Earth. If that was what was needed, I would trade with you for such vessels and be on my way. But the souls of the dead are understood. You are not Caliph Haroun al Raschid's soul."

He inclines his head very slightly.

"I am not."

"You are a dream of all that was great about him. You are… This place is unique. And as such there are limits to how much I can apply what I have learned about other forms of magic to your situation."

"What if Caliph Haroun al Raschid could live again?"

"Heaven does not allow resurrections after so much time. I checked. And even if they did, it is as I said. The two of you are separate."

I sigh.

"And even if we could get a piece of his body and grow a new man from it, they would not be you and you would not be them. They could become President of Iraq and they would still not be you."

"Then how could the world ever know my faultless city?"

"You'd have to build it again from scratch."

His expression hardens slightly. "You mean to say, I and whoever became my partner."

"If you did as I suggest, the two of you would not precisely be separate people. Each of you would be changed, and when they died you would be…" I gesture to him. "This, once more."

"This other version of you. Did they speak with me?"

"I am sorry, your majesty, I did not think to ask them for the names of people who were joined. I believe that your cooks were quite popular. Few men can become king, but everyone benefits from being able to feed themselves well."

That provokes a smile.

"Your soldiers too are sought after."

"And the women of my harem?"

"Some… Do. Their abilities do… Ah, not lend themselves to heroics. It almost certainly guarantees a high-placed but fairly mercenary sort of marriage, but I'm afraid that we're reaching the limits of my knowledge."

"And the boys of my harem?"

"Certain social customs have changed since your era. Respectfully, I would advise against it. Similarly, slavery is not tolerated."

"Slavery is not prohibited by the Quran."

"No, but it was prohibited by the British Navy, a fact that brings me not inconsiderable pride in the nation of my birth. Your majesty, the fact that you need to question me on that subject emphasises that you would require the knowledge of the one you would bond with as much as they would require your sagacity."

He appears to consider that for a moment. I imagine that he'd struggle a little with the change in the relative power of the Islamic world from his era where they invaded southern Europe at will, to the state of affairs that exists today.

"And if I were to follow your advice, how would I start?"

"Stop collecting dream fragments, and start sending out people to speak to dreamers directly instead. Once they know enough to predict a person's dreaming habits, send someone who is like the person they would want to be, and… Directly ask them. Repeated often enough and even a slow-witted dreamer will eventually see the pattern." I shrug. "Or just explain to me what you want, and I can convey your message to the waking world."

"And what would you ask in return?"

I shake my head. "Nothing. Having you acting on the world again serves my interests in generally increasing the capabilities of living humans. I would rather ease your path than risk someone else doing something wrong. Spreading the word is far easier in my era than it was in yours."

"You believe that the cities and nations of your world surpass the glories of Baghdad?"

"Yes."

"How so?"

"See for yourself."

He shakes his head. "You have seen little of my city. Such a thing cannot be."

"That must be profoundly dispiriting for you."

"I made my agreement with the being you call Morpheus precisely because I know all too well that mortal kingdoms fall and I could not bear the idea that no other age might know the glory we know."

"Huh." He raises his eyebrows. "It just… I don't know what I'd do if I thought that I wouldn't be surpassed. I've always assumed that other members of my order would learn from my successes and failures and in the fullness of time grow beyond me. That though there might be setbacks, that learning and civilisation generally continue to advance. I do not believe that I would have made the choice that you did."

"You claim to not feel pride?"

"Pride? No. No, I feel pride in my achievements, but it's about what I've done, not what I am. In your place, I might have commissioned a journalist to write books about my nation and scribes to make many copies, but to sabotage the material so that this would exist… I don't believe that I would have done this."

"I will consider this matter. Though as a boon unasked, I will have my court wizard remove the mark from your demon's head."

"Don't strain him on my account, your majesty."

Darko · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
You two of you are separate."

"Ypu two are separate"

Mr Zoat said:
Few men cane

"men can"

Ngamer11 · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Heaven does not allow resurrections after so much time. I checked. And even if they did, it is as I said. You two of you are separate."

That should say 'The'.

Mr Zoat said:
"No, but it was prohibited by the British Navy, a fact that brings me not inconsiderable pride in the nation of my birth. Your majesty, that fact that you need to question me on that subject emphasises that you would require the knowledge of the one you would bond with as much as they would require your sagacity."

That should say 'the'.

Mr Zoat · Jul 1, 2022

Duke Long said:
Missing '?', I think.
'as'
'it'

Thank you, corrected.

Mr Zoat · Jul 1, 2022

Darko said:
"Ypu two are separate"
"men can"

Ngamer11 said:
That should say 'the'.

Thank you, corrected.

moralrelativity · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Repeated often enough and even a slow-witted dreamer will eventually see the pattern.

Repeated -> Repeat that
OR
enough and even -> enough, even

In search for story's · Jul 1, 2022

The culture clash the good sultan is going to experience is gonna be a whopper.

Ngamer11 · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Thank you, corrected.

It looks like you changed the wrong word.

Mr Zoat said:
"No, but it was prohibited by the British Navy, a fact that brings me not inconsiderable pride in the nation of my birth. Your majesty, that fact the you need to question me on that subject emphasises that you would require the knowledge of the one you would bond with as much as they would require your sagacity."

That should say 'the fact that'.

Chojin Patriarch · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
8th November 2012
18:16 GMT +3

"It's really not that complicated, thaumaturgically speaking. People dream all the time, and anyone can learn to gain lucidity in their dreams. It would simply be a matter of matching volunteers to dreamers."

The dream of Haroun ibn Mohammed ibn Adbullah ibn Mohammed ibn Ali Ben Abdullah ibn Abbas, Caliph of Baghdad, doesn't look entirely convinced. Though I suspect that's more a negotiating tool than anything else; I know that a version of him either agreed to this or flat out suggested it himself.

That's a long lineage of great men hanging over the Caliph's head. No wonder he made the pact he did in the living world. Let's hope he's not unreasonable when he learns about how he cannot walk that world in flesh again. Not easily at last.

"That would not grant them flesh."

"They lost that when your material self made his pact with Morpheus. Such pacts cannot simply be undone." I pause. "Not after so much time. If you were all still alive, I… It may have been possible."

Unfortunately, his mortal shell is long since dust, the soul within passed on to its reward.

"That sounds more like what I want. Speak of it, O sage of avarice."

"Your majesty, your material self, much diminished by sending all that was greatest about his realm into the Dream, died a very long time ago. What became of his soul is a matter for Allah, but from the moment that you and he stopped being the same person. Like… Conjoined twins joined at the shoulder and then separated by a chirurgeon. Could they be reattached? Yes, maybe, with great difficulty. But as time passes and scar tissue forms… Or if one dies…"

Of course, there are ways around that. After all, OL knows a few people with a knack for working with soul-stuff...

"Speak more."

"I am a Hellenist. I do not claim that nothing exists above and beyond the kings of the angelic hosts; I have borne witness to feats of theurgy that cannot have come from anywhere else. But I personally worship beings who are closer to mortality. The chief amongst them is Hephaestaean, God of Artifice and Technology. He has produced a mechanism into which a mortal soul can be entrapped, which allows them to walk once more upon the Earth. If that was what was needed, I would trade with you for such vessels and be on my way. But the souls of the dead are understood. You are not Caliph Haroun al Raschid's soul."

You mean the Zontanonaut armour he made for Erichthonius and others? That could work, but it seem lacking in the senses, which I suspect is what the Caliph is hoping to reacquire.

He inclines his head very slightly.

"I am not."

Not questioning, merely agreeing? Yes, he knows that much, I would expect. After all, most men don't live for around 13 centuries...

"You are a dream of all that was great about him. You are… This place is unique. And as such there limits to how much I can apply what I have learned about other forms of magic to your situation."

"What if Caliph Haroun al Raschid could live again?"

Would he want to? ~~He did seem to try to be a good Muslim, regardless of his mortal failings~~. Edit:

Oh, right, the whole flaunting the rules of religious observances like Ramadan or the whole alcohol thing.

On the other hand... Maybe he turned around after giving up the legends of wonder and became more devout...

"Heaven does not allow resurrections after so much time. I checked. And even if they did, it is as I said. You two of you are separate."

I sigh.

Yes, they came after him for trying to retrieve a soul a couple of years dead. I can't imagine they'd go easy if he went after someone as far back as the Caliph.

"And even if we could get a piece of his body and grow a new man from it, they would not be you and you would not be them. They could become President of Iraq and they would still not be you."

"Then how could the world ever know my faultless city?"

It doesn't already? Do you not know of the tales of strange and wondrous Arabic lands, magnificent cities and mystical works that men dream of?

"You'd have to build it again from scratch."

His expression hardens slightly. "You mean to say, I and whoever became my partner."

Is that what you're so upset about? Having to share your existence with someone else?

"If you did as I suggest, the two of you would not precisely be separate people. Each of you would be changed, and when they died you would be…" I gesture to him. "This, once more."

"This other version of you. Did they speak with me?"

And hopefully by the time it happens, they've got rejuvenation technology able to restore the resulting fusion to a healthy state...

"I am sorry, your majesty, I did not think to ask them for the names of people who were joined. I believe that your cooks were quite popular. Few men cane become king, but everyone benefits from being able to feed themselves well."

That provokes a smile.

The world is only two or three meals away from chaos, after all.

"Your soldiers too are sought after."

"And the women of my harem?"

...Let's not blow his mind by introducing him to the internet just yet, OL.

"Some… Do. Their abilities do… Ah, not lend themselves to heroics. It almost certainly guarantees a high-placed but fairly mercenary sort of marriage, but I'm afraid that we're reaching the limits of my knowledge."

"And the boys of my harem?"

That may prove a harder sell, especially amongst the more inhibited nations.

"Certain social customs have changed since your era. Respectfully, I would advise against it. Similarly, slavery is not tolerated."

"Slavery is not prohibited by the Quran."

Because the big G probably figured us humans could handle that shit ourselves. And if we couldn't, well... There's always Hell.

"No, but it was prohibited by the British Navy, a fact that brings me not inconsiderable pride in the nation of my birth. Your majesty, that fact that you need to question me on that subject emphasises that you would require the knowledge of the one you would bond with as much as they would require your sagacity."

He appears to consider that for a moment. I imagine that he'd struggle a little with the change in the relative power of the Islamic world from his era where they invaded southern Europe at will, to the state of affairs that exists today.

Surely, oh Caliph, you can understand the value of an advisor wise in the ways of the modern world? I'm sure you know of diplomatic missteps caused by a lack of wordly knowledge?

"And if I were to follow your advice, how would I start?"

"Stop collecting dream fragments, and start sending out people to speak to dreamers directly instead. Once they know enough to predict a person's dreaming habits, send someone who is like the person they would want to be, and… Directly ask them. Repeated often enough and even a slow-witted dreamer will eventually see the pattern." I shrug. "Or just explain to me what you want, and I can convey your message to the waking world."

Now, which of those is likely to get you out of here sooner? Well...

"And what would you ask in return?"

I shake my head. "Nothing. Having you acting on the world again serves my interests in generally increasing the capabilities of living humans. I would rather ease your path than risk someone else doing something wrong. Spreading the world is far easier in my era than it was in yours."

And OL does have a little patch of land dearly in need of some occupants.

"You believe that the cities and nations of your world surpass the glories of Baghdad?"

"Yes."

Let's just say that things have gone a lot more... Vertical... Over the centuries.

"How so?"

"See for yourself."

Heck, have some of those dream chasers seek out visions and vistas of the great cities. You'll soon see, indeed.

He shakes his head. "You have seen little of my city. Such a thing cannot be."

"That must be profoundly dispiriting for you."

I wonder how Teth Adom would take to meeting this fellow... ~~I mean, he was closer to the Caliph's time than the Caliph was to the modern day, if not by much~~... Edit:

...errr, I was off by about a millennium... On the other hand, meeting an Egyptian pagan ruler might be an entertaining encounter?

"I made my agreement with the being you call Morpheus precisely because I know all too well that mortal kingdoms fall and I could not bear the idea that no other age might know the glory we know."

"Huh." He raises his eyebrows. "It just… I don't know what I'd do if I thought that I wouldn't be surpassed. I've always assumed that other members of my order would learn from my successes and failures and in the fullness of time grow beyond me. That though there might be setbacks, that learning and civilisation generally continue to advance. I do not believe that I would have made the choice that you did."

Feel a bit disappointed that no-one has quite the same talent as you, perhaps?

"You claim to not feel pride?"

"Pride? No. No, I feel pride in my achievements, but it's about what I've done, not what I am. In your place, I might have commissioned a journalist to write books about my nation and scribes to make many copies, but to sabotage the material so that this would exist… I don't believe that I would have done this."

...I mean, isn't that what your logs essentially are? History free of embellishment and dissemblance?

"I will consider this matter. Though as a boon unasked, I will have my court wizard remove the mark from your demon's head."

"Don't strain him on my account, your majesty."

I mean, it's not like he's any nicer with it as without.

And about what I expected. I'm a little disappointed that the Caliph can't envisage anything greater than his city, but he is a little limited by his nature as a reflection, a fantasy of a man. I fancy he'll suffer a little bit of culture shock when he sees the modern world. Whether it be the cities, the technology, or the evolution of his faith. But, I'm sure he'll adjust. Dreams are ever-adaptable, after all.

Handlewithcare · Jul 1, 2022

Yeah, merging a literal nostalgic dream of a forgotten, primitive age and the modern world ain't gonne be easy.

Also, anyone else expecting Iznogoud to show up at any time?

Darko · Jul 1, 2022

Chojin Patriarch said:
Unfortunately, his mortal shell is long since dust, the soul within passed on to its reward.

Or his punishment.

Chojin Patriarch said:
You mean the Zontanonaut armour he made for Erichthonius and others? That could work, but it seem lacking in the senses, which I suspect is what the Caliph is hoping to reacquire.

I think Heph could give them all the senses of a human.

Chojin Patriarch said:
That may prove a harder sell, especially amongst the more inhibited nations.

It would prove a hard sell Ren amongst the most liberal nations.

Khettien · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
"Don't strain him on my account, your majesty."

I think Demon Constantine would like the license plate number of the bus that OL just tossed him under.

Mr Zoat · Jul 1, 2022

moralrelativity said:
Repeated -> Repeat that
OR
enough and even -> enough, even

Looks fine to me.

Ngamer11 said:
It looks like you changed the wrong word.

That should say 'the fact that'.

Thank you, corrected.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Would he want to? He did seem to try to be a good Muslim, regardless of his mortal failings.

He was drinking wine and eating during the day during Ramadan. Morpheus repeatedly called him on it.

I wonder how Teth Adom would take to meeting this fellow... I mean, he was closer to the Caliph's time than the Caliph was to the modern day, if not by much...

I'd have to check, but I don't think that's correct.

Darko said:
It would prove a hard sell Ren amongst the most liberal nations.

Why are you selling Ren?

Chojin Patriarch · Jul 1, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
He was drinking wine and eating during the day during Ramadan. Morpheus repeatedly called him on it.

...Well, I did say try. Islam was only a couple of hundred years old, if the Wiki article on Haroun is right. I'm sure some were less devout than others.

I'd have to check, but I don't think that's correct.

Yeah, I was a bit out. Haroun al-Rashid was born in the 760's, and died in the early 800's (around 12 centuries ago.) Teth Adom lived in the 1200's BC (about 2000 years before Haroun...)

Oops. I'll adjust my comments...

Windona · Jul 1, 2022

I wonder what specifically about his city was great. Though at minimum I imagine many scholars would want a view at the Baghdad House of Wisdom, if only the Dream version or if only by proxy.

As suspected, this has the chance to go in a way that is very beneficial to all involved rather than a 'stop him from possessing people' way.

Old Knife · Jul 1, 2022

Is Paul recruiting the Sultan? Cause it seems like Paul is recruiting the Sultan.

And a perfect Sultan Orange Lantern is either a terrible foe or a most glorious ally.

Mr Zoat · Jul 1, 2022

Old Knife said:
Is Paul recruiting the Sultan? Cause it seems like Paul is recruiting the Sultan.

And a perfect Sultan Orange Lantern is either a terrible foe or a most glorious ally.

No. He would probably have been willing to recruit the living caliph, but selling his entire people to the Dream is something the SI can't counternance.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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peekaboo, you fucks you!

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