With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

NightmareWarden · Jul 16, 2022

I'm curious what the rockets and satellites will be named. Same for the eventual moon base. The planets and what not were named from mythology, but this is the start of a new era. What concepts or individuals will receive the honor of passing the lips of millions from this venture?

Heck- how about we contribute some names (specifying whether they are for a spaceship, satellite, telescope, base, etc). Keep in mind we want to steer away from concepts that bring to mind the brutal countries despised in this setting.

Cherico · Jul 16, 2022

I know enough about this setting to know that the united states of this world wont ever let go of either canada or the confederacy.

This is a region that got hit hard with the empire helping in the civil war, with a two front war in its great war and then another conflict. As far as these yanks are concerned keeping canada and the south down and intregated into the united states is a matter of national surivival. Their not going to be rational about it.

hance1986 · Jul 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Which would require that we formally agree to abandon fission weapons. Not likely, Madam Secretary. Not until out weapon satellites are in position.

our

If Britain is not sharing then yes orbiting kill-sats are necessary to keep all the other monkeys in the cage. I wonder what the Germans are feeling knowing that they only won in the immediate term.

EDIT: 2 related questions on the Black Arrow timeline. 3 maybe. What is this England's policy towards immigration/tourism/foreigners? Just not doing it? Outsiders are super watched by the MI services? Once England really starts boosting technologically and the common technology shifts farther ahead of other nations tech development and consumer technology becomes more advanced will all the toys just stay in England and people searched on the way out to make sure they're not smuggling compact English electronics or things like that?

Second. All the former English colonies are just cut loose? Will any try and reconnect to get any of the new space benefits England is bringing in? Once England becomes militarily superior and has the high ground in space with the armed satellites, they can just ignore Germany and any war treaty complaints.

Third. Will we see Black Arrow Churchill again? I liked that guy.

AR760 · Jul 16, 2022

This entire Black Arrow storyline feels like it seems to involve pretty much nothing but British/England power fantasy/wank facilitated through Paul providing out of context technology from a more advanced civilization enabling Britain to propel itself again into their long lost place of international supremacy.

Like all of the reminiscing of and fantasies relating to the "good old days" of yore when England could be considered one of, if not the preeminent superpowers playing out as a theme in each update for this particular iteration of the WTR multiverse.

Ngl, the premise feels quite boring. Still, those are my thoughts as a reader. Authors can of course write whatever they'd like.

Handlewithcare · Jul 16, 2022

Uhm. What is his long term plan here? Every Paul we met seemed to want as widespread integration as possible, this one goes hard against the grain.

And why the secrecy? He could just force everyone to work together by showing of the alien invasion fleet and then use his ring (which he can recharge, apparently?) to intimidate the few reluctant ones.

Doc Sithicus · Jul 16, 2022

AR760 said:
Ngl, the premise feels quite boring.

Speak for yourself. I find Paul's versions existing in non-superhero universes refreshing, I used to be a big Turtledove fan in the day, and still love alternative history stories.

AR760 · Jul 16, 2022

Doc Sithicus said:
Speak for yourself. I find Paul's versions existing in non-superhero universes refreshing, I used to be a big Turtledove fan in the day, and still love alternative history stories.

I am? I don't know where in my post you got the idea that I was speaking for anyone else other than myself lmao. How closely did you actually read it?

I explicitly said that what I was saying was purely my thoughts as a reader.

The entire storyline to me comes across as a British power fantasy enabled through the introduction of external technology and knowledge from Paul and alien ex machina. That is narratively being presented as something Britain has a right to and earned, and that Britain is going into the future on its own by virtue of possessing that superior tech base into conquering space.

I mean, even in the first update, the premise and theme seemed pretty explicitly clear.

I want human civilisation in space to be British.

With statements like the following, which was in part 2 of Black Arrow as coming across as quite ironic.

But we're not going to do any sort of.. partnership, and we're certainly not going to share the products of our labours

And even after all that, I still said that I recognize that the author can write about whatever the heck they want. And that my impression or reception of the content coming across as a British power fantasy or nostalgia bait/fuel for when England was a superpower was exactly that. My impression and my reception.

hance1986 · Jul 16, 2022

AR760 said:
The entire storyline to me comes across as a British power fantasy enabled through the introduction of external technology and knowledge, rather than any of their own accomplishments.

Zoat did say this was a riff on the comic Ministry of Space which is also all about British space dominance while also telling the other nations to kick rocks. I mean the thing here is by Paul's internal monologue Britain is lowteching what they are publicly showing while already having footholds on Mars and the Moon. The space game is rigged. No other nation knows aliens exist or that British advancement comes from nonhuman tech.

I love it. It's not overt war but being locked out may cause mistakes to be made meaning that in the event of a 3rd international conflict this time Britain will not lose, unveiling some of those kinetic harpoon ideas Paul was talking about when he first met Churchill that are nukes without the fallout. So say Germany along with some other allied European nations want to so something by force regarding British 'selfishness' and get utterly destroyed from orbit. Like no contest. And then they have to deal with it.

That's what I like about this Black Arrow storyline.

AR760 · Jul 16, 2022

hance1986 said:
Zoat did say this was a riff on the comic Ministry of Space which is also all about British space dominance while also telling the other nations to kick rocks. I mean the thing here is by Paul's internal monologue Britain is lowteching what they are publicly showing while already having footholds on Mars and the Moon. The space game is rigged. No other nation knows aliens exist or that British advancement comes from nonhuman tech.

I love it. It's not overt war but being locked out may cause mistakes to be made meaning that in the event of a 3rd international conflict this time Britain will not lose, unveiling some of those kinetic harpoon ideas Paul was talking about when he first met Churchill that are nukes without the fallout. So say Germany along with some other allied European nations want to so something by force regarding British 'selfishness' and get utterly destroyed from orbit. Like no contest. And then they have to deal with it.

That's what I like about this Black Arrow storyline.

And that doesn't sound like a British power fantasy to you?

Because the summarized premise of everything you just said is that the theme of the story is that Britain wins everything forever and is centered around them having space dominance over others only because of alien tech and Paul as a deus ex machina with his Lantern ring.

The game is rigged. They already won. And nobody can do anything about it.

Taking what you just said, see what I mean?

BR549 · Jul 16, 2022

Yes, and isn't that interesting?

AR760 · Jul 16, 2022

BR549 said:
Yes, and isn't that interesting?

When the premise becomes Britain wins and that's it? No. That's boring.

You already know how the story ends, and can more or less predict with a high degree of probability much about how it will unfold if the above is true. With England winning and solving all problems through the alien tech or Lantern ring bullshit.

Space harpoons/defense satellites to protect England against nukes and as planetary power projection. International colonization spearheaded through English efforts and benefiting England alone. Resource acquisition through alien tech facilitating shit like asteroid mining or matter transmutation. Intelligence superiority through Ring or Alien electronic warfare or communications tech.

And so on and so on. Ectera, ectera.

That robs the story of conflict, and leaves any confrontation or sense of atmosphere with the inevitable sense of British victory feeling again, like a complete power fantasy.

It comes across as all the more insufferable because their prosperity would come entirely from a deus ex machina, meaning that their sense of superiority feels hypocritical since it would be entirely unearned.

The author can write a British power fantasy if they want. I even said as much.

But I personally think that a story where the known outcome is England wins everything forever is boring. And even worse if and when the point of view character comes across as smarmy, superior, and quite smug about it in the process.

Lord Ernest · Jul 16, 2022

I've seen enough 'Stargate in an alternate country' fics to not be bothered by this. Is it wanky? Yes, but so what? Nothing wrong with a wank, it's natural, healthy and normal. And what alt-Paul hasn't been wanky, anyway? The only difference with this one is that it's actually his original country instead of Themyscira or someplace else. And those other ones have been interesting as well. In fact, this alternate is as interesting as the Fallout one to me.

I'm a bit disappointed that this Paul isn't actually trying to bring the UK to the forefront to then bully all the other countries into compliance though, but maybe that's a later strategy? Like, get British hegemony of the system and then reveal when it's too late for other countries to sabotage and catch up? Then they just have to comply if they want to be part of the modern world and the space expansion? 'Cause, I mean, I don't know much, but unless the UK starts multiplying by a lot I don't think they have enough people to colonize too much? And eventually the reptiles or somebody else may come a-knocking?

Chojin Patriarch · Jul 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Universe 191
22nd January 1949
11:02 GMT

"Madam Secretary of State."

Impressive. A four year jump between segments. This Paul may well be putting in a speedrun attempt. And no doubt with a quantum leap in aerospace technology courtesy of one spaceman with a ring and an aborted alien invasion...

I'm already standing, as modern manners dictate, but I make sure to offer her my hand to shake. The 'other' party in the two party system the United States have being literally called the 'Socialist Party of the United States' is… Well, it was a surprise. With no other major industrial nation embracing socialism in quite the same way it's the US that more or less defines what international socialism looks like. In an intellectual way it's quite interesting; Russia was brutal under the Tsars and remained brutal under Communism. American socialism is… Different, informed by a country that isn't anything like as brutalised.

And with such a large time jump comes... Exposition!

When the party started, anyway.

"Mister Talwyn." She smiles -unconvincingly- and shakes my hand. The years since she was First Lady have not been kind: between her work in support of interwar disarmament which resulted in the Confederacy nearly winning the Second Great War and her support of the United States' current wave of brutal repression, she looks like someone with a great many regrets wearing her down. "Thank you for seeing me."

Ah, something of an Iron Lady, then. Though I doubt this world will ever see the other one rise to power. Not with all these Mothra dumping changes to the timeline by flapping their sparkly wings...

"I was curious." I shrug. "I'm really not sure why a person in your position would want to talk to me. Black Arrow has no economic interests in the United States, or… What are we calling it?"

Her face shifts uncomfortably. "Occupied Canada."

Hardly the most pleasant name.

Very much a blatant reminder of their lesser status, hmm?

"And the southern part? I mean, the United States can hardly be occupying the United States."

She hesitates, then shrugs. "In private, I mostly call it the Occupied Confederacy."

Still, in a century or two, with the right propaganda, no-one will remember that North America used to be separate states...

I nod, and make a lip-zipping gesture. That gets a small smile.

"Is everything on course for the launch?"

Assuming his ring still has power, I have no doubt he's recording everything for the military intelligence divisions' analysis departments.

I smile broadly. "Yes. We'll do final checks immediately before launch, of course, but at this point it's fuelled and ready to go."

"It-." She shakes her head. "It doesn't seem real. I was a girl when the Wright Brothers built the first aeroplane, and now your machine will take men to the Moon."

Amusingly, not that far ahead of the real world. Once the snowball got rolling, aerospace science got its act together right quick. Mostly because of competition.

"The basic mechanics aren't that complicated. Mathematicians a hundred years ago could have calculated the flight path. Enough thrust and a sealed environment, and off you go."

"I think you're underselling the magnitude of your achievement."

Indeed, fiction writers of the day put a few stories down on that theme...

"Oh, not my achievement." I shake my head. "I'm not much of an engineer. But we had a lot of ex-military engineers at the end of the war without much to do, And I do take credit for pointing them at the sky."

And I know for a fact that we're well ahead of every other country on the planet. Germany has a few simple rockets, but they're at least a decade behind what we're publically claiming that we can do. America is more or less not bothering, and having seen their budget it's not hard to guess why.

Why worry about the sky when your people are more concerned with the ground, and the food they're growing?

"How have you been able to make such rapid progress?"

"It's amazing what you can achieve when you're not trying to occupy a quarter of the planet. Or wasting energy trying to take it back."

Subtle self-dig at British Imperialism, eh? I suppose said empire is long-gone by now.

Bullshit, of course. It's from our people reverse engineering reptiloid technology, something that is much easier now that we've got a fully translated version of their database to work off. Though I admit getting highest priority to the finest minds in the country is making that aspect easier.

Mrs Blackford nods. "I am personally pleased that this is a scientific project. Some of my Democratic colleagues have suggested that this might be a cover for a military missile program, but I have been tremendously reassured by what your press department has shown me."

No, that's what the secret KKV satellites will be for.

I shake my head. "Obviously we could mount a fission warhead on a modified Skylark rocket, but… Look, we've got fission bombs and Germany has fission bombs. And between us, we've both got enough high altitude heavy bombers to overfly one another's territory and destroy all of one another's cities. Reliably. Mutually Assured Destruction, or, appropriately, 'MAD' for short. Using rockets instead of bombers would mean that we'd hit them fast enough to see Germany go up before we did." I shake my head. "I don't really think it's worth the investment. No, space for us, civilian rocketry and scientific missions."

'Skylark', eh? Such a British name for a rocket. And likely not the last such understated name, unlike the lofty names America used.

"I'm very relieved to hear it. I take it that you mean to launch more missions after this?"

"Well of course. Honestly, the trip to the Moon is just to demonstrate to British tax payers what they've been paying for. Most of the useful work we'll be doing in the short term won't involve going that far."

Yes, the propaganda victory of Britain planting its flag on the closest celestial body to Earth will just be the start...

"Such as?"

"I'm most excited about the idea of establishing a network of communication satellites. No more worrying about undersea cables for sending messages, or needing relay towers for radio transmissions."

Dragging the world into the Information Age kicking and screaming, eh?

She frowns. "Can your rocket stay up that long?"

"No, no." I shake my head. "To.. put it simply, the satellites stay up in the same way the moon does; they would be moving fast enough that they… Fall past the world. It's much easier out of the atmosphere because the air resistance is much less."

A good oversimplification. Very much a Lie to a Child.

Naturally, we already have such systems on our bases on Mars and the far side of the Moon, as well as a series of relays across the system to maintain contact with Mars when they're on the opposite side of the Sun. But those are modified reptilian satellites, whereas the ones we'll be using around Earth are human built.

"And will you be sharing that technology with other nations?"

Heh. I suppose by 1955 or so, they'll make a pony show of a 'first manned mission to Mars'. Just have to be careful not to catch the cities in camera shot.

"No, not really."

She watches my face, waiting for me to continue.

Oh, just keep being smug at her, Paul...

I don't, maintaining a polite smile.

"That is.. rather disappointing. I had thought that the invitation your government extended to the United States and the German Empire was an indication that you were prepared to engage with the international order."

Which would require that we formally agree to abandon fission weapons. Not likely, Madam Secretary. Not until out weapon satellites are in position.

Embodying the principle of 'Speaking softly, but carrying a big stick." In this case, a stick made of a few tons of titanium.

"Madam Secretary of State, Britain is isolationist. Naturally, we're not really that keen to engage economically with anyone, least of all the nations who beat us in two Great Wars. I invited you here because we want someone who can report back about the civilian applications of what we're doing. And when we publish our findings, your universities are welcome to read them. But we're not going to do any sort of.. partnership, and we're certainly not going to share the products of our labours."

"Isolationist."

Now, if you'd like to pay through the nose for services related to them, well, I'm sure the ambassadors will be taking inquiries.

"As much as an island can be. Depending on resources sourced from outside of our territory proved to be a tremendous vulnerability, so we're arranging things so that we won't need them any longer. Self-sufficiency, that's the name of the game."

The good humour she showed at the start of our exchange has more or less evaporated. She looks even more tired like this. "Then can I inform my Democratic colleagues that Britain will no longer be supporting Canadian radicals?"

Ah, if only you could pull the Tenth Doctor's ploy. Six. Little. Words. Don't You Think She Looks Tired?

"We haven't since the end of the War. I realise that it's convenient to have a foreign power to blame, but the fact is that after thirty years of occupation and oppression they just.. really hate America. Yes, if you want my assurance, we're not sending them weapons or overtly encouraging them, but we don't really need to. If you want my advice?"

She cautiously nods.

I'm sure he'd offer it, whether you agreed or not. Just being less blatant about it.

"Just leave them to it. They don't have the industry to invade you and they don't have international allies to help them. Stop occupying them and at least you'll stop haemorrhaging manpower in the north of your country."

"Will you make a similar commitment regarding the Confederacy?"

Hell, no. Keep stomping their stupid heads into the dirt until they get the idea of racial superiority out of their thick skulls...

I'm sure that she sees my instinctive revulsion at the place in my face, but the only way around that would be to use the ring and I'd rather avoid that.

"Yes. What the Confederacy did was an affront to all God-fearing people, and also to all rationality. But, again, it isn't us. They just hate you that much, and unlike Canada you can't afford not to occupy them. I will admit that some of my more bullish colleagues are deriving more than a little pleasure at what it's costing you to hold them down."

Ah, America, you and your tradition of rebelliousness, written right into your constitution.

"And do you feel the same way?"

"It's convenient that you're distracted, but that's about it."

Yes, not having the Americans, or anyone else, looking deeper at things like resource consumption...

I glance down, checking my watch.

"Ah, we should probably leave now to get the best view of the launch. Today will be a splendid day for it."

What's the bet the rocket on the pad isn't even crewed? Why waste the resources when you can fake it?

Heh. An interesting little diversion, to cover the boring bits of the main plot. I doubt we're missing out on anything, not seeing the mission team walk along a path. And seeing this little 'national uplift, speedrun edition' plot is quite entertaining. Mostly because of its Paul's sheer dry amusement and smugness at pretty much everyone. Guess being the most powerful person on Earth has its perks.

hance1986 · Jul 16, 2022

AR760 said:
You already know how the story ends, and much about how it unfolds if the above is true. With England winning. That robs the story of conflict, and leaves any confrontation or sense of atmosphere with the inevitable sense of British victory feeling again, like a complete power fantasy.

Here's the thing. Somebody has to win. This isn't some liberal international cooperation kind of thing. This is not Earth Prime or even 1949 Earth 16. This is Earth had a viable Confederate government that was gassing blacks for expediency until recently. This is an alt-Earth. The hell with fairness.

Britain is just space-grinding in the corner until there is enough soft power and economic power that a gun in the face is not necessary.

And there are loose plot threads to think about too. It was kind of implied but we don't know if Paul actually FTLed to Home and killed the Race Emperor and the Race government and wrecked their industrial capacity. Paul alluded to an optimistic projection that 80 years would be enough time for a new approaching Conquest/Colonization Fleet. But given the conservative nature of the Race, it could take 2-3 times as long. Plus if Paul did zip over and disrupt Race society and ability to project any kind of power, no way the Race would know it was a Tosevite Big Ugly who did it. Meaning the Race may be entirely in the dark as to how everything went to shit.

AR760 · Jul 16, 2022

hance1986 said:
Here's the thing. Somebody has to win. This isn't some liberal international cooperation kind of thing. This is not Earth Prime or even 1949 Earth 16. This is Earth had a viable Confederate government that was gassing blacks for expediency until recently. This is an alt-Earth. The hell with fairness.

Britain is just space-grinding in the corner until there is enough soft power and economic power that a gun in the face is not necessary.

And there are loose plot threads to think about too. It was kind of implied but we don't know if Paul actually FTLed to Home and killed the Race Emperor and the Race government and wrecked their industrial capacity. Paul alluded to an optimistic projection that 80 years would be enough time for a new approaching Conquest/Colonization Fleet. But given the conservative nature of the Race, it could take 2-3 times as long. Plus if Paul did zip over and disrupt Race society and ability to project any kind of power, no way the Race would know it was a Tosevite Big Ugly who did it. Meaning the Race may be entirely in the dark as to how everything went to shit.

They already more or less have it given that they are close to having their satellite fleet. And the vast fleet of ships Paul has arranged for Britain to access as soon as they have a working space craft. With even more on the way to join the collection already hanging out.

Also, Paul already destroyed the enemy aliens. They would require at best 80 years to recover, which Paul even said was unlikely. Not to mention. If he did it once, what exactly is stopping him from doing it again? Or Britain from using the resources already acquired from Paul's previous victory to sweep them away?

See below. He already has hundreds of thousands of tanks and fighters to give to Britain. They've already essentially won. So what room does that leave for telling any story other than mentioning the future astroid mining and space satellites and the cavalcade of inevitable English victories in a power fantasy, sense of smug superiority kind of vibe?

"I've managed to lay my hands on samples of technology about… Let's call it a hundred and fifty years, in advance of anything on Earth. Quite a lot of samples. And I'm willing to… Not so much 'share' as 'hand it over'. You don't have any oil any more? Don't worry, it all runs on hydrogen. Short of raw materials? Don't worry, I have spaceships. It is my desire and intent to use the opportunity caused by this destruction to build the country into something better than it's been before. Better than anything on the planet, in point of fact."

"This is one of their tanks. Note the general shape of the armour. You can keep it; I've got hundreds of thousands of the things. This is one of their fighters. Note the exterior radar and missiles. You can keep it; I've got hundreds of thousands of the things. I've put about half of the ships I acquired in orbit around Jupiter, the other half will get here in a few decades. I'll take a team of researchers there once you've assembled one."

Mr. Wilson tries to keep his face calm.

"What happened to their owners?"

"They tried to invade my planet and got their just deserts."

"Their government?"

"They tried to have their army invade my planet and got their just deserts. If their species reorganised their government immediately and started rebuilding their military infrastructure immediately after that then they might be able to get another fleet here in eighty years. They won't." He doesn't look reassured. "Have you ever met a lizard you liked?"

The aliens are essentially called entirely a non-issue. Especially with Paul around, given he already beat them and can do so again.

The problem/solution paradigm has already more or less already been outlined, like I said before and you can see in the quoted section above.

Space harpoons/defense satellites to protect England against nukes and as planetary power projection. International colonization spearheaded through English efforts and benefiting England alone. Resource acquisition through alien tech facilitating shit like asteroid mining and hydrogen harvesting. Intelligence superiority through Ring or Alien electronic warfare or communications tech.

You have an Orange Lantern with seemingly few, if any issues maintaining a Ring charge.

And so on and so on. Ectera, ectera.

That robs the story of conflict, and leaves any confrontation or sense of atmosphere with the inevitable sense of British victory feeling again, like a complete power fantasy.

Darko · Jul 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Mutually Assured Destruction, or, appropriately, 'MAD' for short

Was this inspired by the recent Home For Infinite Losers episode?

Mr Zoat · Jul 16, 2022

hance1986 said:
our

Thank you, corrected.

EDIT: 2 related questions on the Black Arrow timeline. 3 maybe. What is this England's policy towards immigration/tourism/foreigners? Just not doing it? Outsiders are super watched by the MI services?

Not sure. Free travel for any citizen of the Empire was a policy in living memory. On the other hand, forced decolonisation post GWI means that there's no large group of people looking to move to Britain. I suppose that some French people might prefer Britain to living under German rule. Mass tourism hasn't really become a thing in this timeline yet.

Once England really starts boosting technologically and the common technology shifts farther ahead of other nations tech development and consumer technology becomes more advanced will all the toys just stay in England and people searched on the way out to make sure they're not smuggling compact English electronics or things like that?

Yes. While they could make a for-export version of consumer electronics, that's just asking for it to be copied. This SI wants to avoid all competition. And the great thing about living on an island is that it's relatively easy to police the borders.

Second. All the former English colonies are just cut loose?

Do you mean British? Ireland was separated but England, Wales and Scotland are still together.

Some colonies were occupied by victorious Germany or America, but for the most part yes.

Will any try and reconnect to get any of the new space benefits England is bringing in?

They're not allowed to. That's something both Germany and the US fear about communication satellites, but at the moment they need to send any messages between pro-Britain groups and the homeland via ship.

Once England becomes militarily superior and has the high ground in space with the armed satellites, they can just ignore Germany and any war treaty complaints.

No, they can't. Until the laser defence grid is complete, Germany can still swarm Britain with nuclear-armed bombers.

Third. Will we see Black Arrow Churchill again? I liked that guy.

Probably not. He's feeling better, but he's far too politically damaged to occupy high office again.

Handlewithcare said:
Uhm. What is his long term plan here? Every Paul we met seemed to want as widespread integration as possible, this one goes hard against the grain.

Basically, he doesn't like the emergent international order enough to trust it with that sort of power but thinks that he can control Britain well enough to stop them doing anything too stupid.

And why the secrecy? He could just force everyone to work together by showing of the alien invasion fleet and then use his ring (which he can recharge, apparently?) to intimidate the few reluctant ones.

Ex-alien invasion fleet. But knowing that there's such a fleet under British control might provoke someone into restarting the war.

Mr Zoat · Jul 16, 2022

Darko said:
Was this inspired by the recent Home For Infinite Losers episode?

No.

AR760 said:
Space harpoons/defense satellites to protect England against nukes and as planetary power projection.

No. Having nukes does not protect you from nukes. To a country with nukes, nukes aren't scary. Anti-nukes are scary, because they take away your ability to threaten back.

Duke Long · Jul 16, 2022

AR760 said:
The entire storyline to me comes across as a British power fantasy enabled through the introduction of external technology and knowledge from Paul and alien ex machina. That is narratively being presented as something Britain has a right to and earned, and that Britain is going into the future on its own by virtue of possessing that superior tech base into conquering space.

That really seems like a misinterpretation on your part. I mean, obviously it is a power fantasy, but how does it come across as Britain having earned it? The SI complained multiple times in the first chapter of this timeline about how this version of Britain sucks and he's only helping them because they're less bad than the other options, plus they're his home country.

Also, I just think it's pretty rude to think that Zoat is so lacking in self-awareness that he'd write as if Britain had a right to this success when their success is coming from an absolute deus ex machina.

moralrelativity · Jul 16, 2022

Lord Ernest said:
I'm a bit disappointed that this Paul isn't actually trying to bring the UK to the forefront to then bully all the other countries into compliance though, but maybe that's a later strategy?

Yeah, I assumed it was a phase 2 or 3 or 4; once everything off-planet is ready. IMO there's no way Paul leaves Earth dis-united when there's an alien fleet on the way.

Windona · Jul 16, 2022

Being the source of a defeated nation's sudden advancement would give Paul a lot of political clout and leeway. Sort of like how FDR is fondly remembered in American history. And that clout can be used to change British society into something he likes; if people associate a more fair order with success, then they're more likely to adopt that outlook. (...Since I'm not familiar with Southern Victory, what is the state of Alan Turing? I can see Paul intervening to make sure Turing is one of the brightest minds working on technology and not going to get chemically castrated)

Mr Zoat · Jul 16, 2022

Windona said:
Being the source of a defeated nation's sudden advancement would give Paul a lot of political clout and leeway. Sort of like how FDR is fondly remembered in American history. And that clout can be used to change British society into something he likes; if people associate a more fair order with success, then they're more likely to adopt that outlook. (...Since I'm not familiar with Southern Victory, what is the state of Alan Turing? I can see Paul intervening to make sure Turing is one of the brightest minds working on technology and not going to get chemically castrated)

I don't think he's mentioned. France went full Nazi during GWII but Britain was specifically noted as not having done that. Thing is, I'm not really sure whether the SI would have the breath of influence to get the relevant pieces of legislation changed.

Windona · Jul 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
I don't think he's mentioned. France went full Nazi during GWII but Britain was specifically noted as not having done that. Thing is, I'm not really sure whether the SI would have the breath of influence to get the relevant pieces of legislation changed.

Fair enough, I was just assuming an 'I need this person on my team and they get leeway because of that' but if his major accomplishments IRL weren't enough to prevent that then I see the issue.

Clell65619 · Jul 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
No.

No. Having nukes does not protect you from nukes. To a country with nukes, nukes aren't scary. Anti-nukes are scary, because they take away your ability to threaten back.

To a country with nukes, nukes are fucking terrifying.

I spent the first half of my adulthood deploying and sleeping between the things what go BOOM! To a man (no women on the subs in my day) we were terrified of the things, and scared shitless throughout the (thankfully few) times we got close to launch.

Perhaps, the political idiots who run things aren't frightened of nuclear weapons, but they are, as I said, idiots.

Anti-Nukes on the other hand were generally viewed by those of us on the wet and pointy end as great ideas. When Reagan started talking his 'Star Wars Initiative' we had hope that someone had made the damned things obsolete.

Then we got a look at the physics behind the proposals. It wasn't going to work, ever. The kinetic kill packages required far too much computer time and uninterrupted tracking to be reliable. Then some bright boy decided to pack some Mylar balloons along with the actual REVs and tracking became almost impossible.

Hell, even during the tests, with perfect conditions, the kinetic kill weapons only hit about a third of their targets.

And the Energy weapons? Good lord, the pie in the sky tech those bastards required. Sure, let's light off a fusion bomb in orbit to fire the pumped laser once. Sure hope the EMP isn't inconvenient.

Galler · Jul 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
I don't think he's mentioned. France went full Nazi during GWII but Britain was specifically noted as not having done that. Thing is, I'm not really sure whether the SI would have the breath of influence to get the relevant pieces of legislation changed.

Can you elaborate on what the general population thinks of the SI, for those in and out of the UK's boarder?

In this update he states that he is the reason they turned to the stars, but for the general populace that don't know they have alien tech, what do they think of him and of that decision?

hkim · Jul 16, 2022

Also for anyone complaining this story is a British power fantasy without much chance of the Brits losing-

Have.. have you not read the previous updates?

Mr Zoat · Jul 16, 2022

Galler said:
Can you elaborate on what the general population thinks of the SI, for those in and out of the UK's boarder?

In this update he states that he is the reason they turned to the stars, but for the general populace that don't know they have alien tech, what do they think of him and of that decision?

He is a very big deal.

Britain was on the losing side for the second time in twenty years. Not quite as bad as that but still pretty bad, they found out that two out of three of their allies were systematically murdering large portions of their population and the people on the other side of the war are broadcasting the evidence. There is a lot of damage to the county from German bombing and they're going to be expected to pay the people who beat them for the privileged of not being bombed more.

Then this guy comes along and offers the government a fix to all their problems. Once it's confirmed that he actually can do that, he becomes a very big deal to the ruling class. And because they don't want to be hung from lamp posts by a socialist revolution, they run a huge propaganda campaign emphasising this new direction of public policy. And when the German Empire tries to go back on the gold standard and then a few months later the value of gold collapses because someone paid their war debts in metal, and when Britain starts producing better technology than anywhere else in the world, the propaganda is coming true.

However, the religion of Muad'Dib is not Muad'Dib. People are being told what they want to hear to stave off social unrest. Even with the technology he stole, changing the way a country works isn't easy. And while the German Empire have confirmed for themselves that Britain is disarming, they're not happy about the way it's transforming itself while they're stuck occupying hostile territory.

hance1986 · Jul 16, 2022

Mr Zoat said:
Then this guy comes along and offers the government a fix to all their problems. Once it's confirmed that he actually can do that, he becomes a very big deal to the ruling class. And because they don't want to be hung from lamp posts by a socialist revolution, they run a huge propaganda campaign emphasising this new direction of public policy. And when the German Empire tries to go back on the gold standard and then a few months later the value of gold collapses because someone paid their war debts in metal, and when Britain starts producing better technology than anywhere else in the world, the propaganda is coming true.

It would also help that Paul Talwyn is a younger face in the government not attached to previous wartime decisions and agreements.

What is Talwyn's official job title, given that he can meet with a top American official? A young and cultured voice selling Britain on space as opposed to a new war, and given the huge propaganda drive for this new space initiative, publicly Paul might have some boring Undersecretary title or something with a more well known name leading the Space Ministry to distract from Paul actually being the Shadow Broker, so to speak.

I imagine both the Americans and Germans are bothered because they have little to go on where Paul Talwyn came from. I'm sure the British government fabricated a history and pictures but they probably don't really care. Paul could be Arthur returned to the government, just that he has provided a way out.

Also, has Paul met the Queen? I'd like to see something about that and her thoughts on Earth isolation for Britain. The Queen might be if everything else failed....

Windona · Jul 16, 2022

Unrelated, but anyone know what chapter(s) are on Amazonian culture, especially regarding male Amazons and the like? I'm talking to a friend about Amazon worldbuilding and they might find it interesting

Mr Zoat · Jul 16, 2022

hance1986 said:
It would also help that Paul Talwyn is a younger face in the government not attached to previous wartime decisions and agreements.

Not really. 'What did you do in the war' was put on a poster for a reason. Not being able to give an answer would give most British people reason to dislike him.

What is Talwyn's official job title, given that he can meet with a top American official? A young and cultured voice selling Britain on space as opposed to a new war, and given the huge propaganda drive for this new space initiative, publicly Paul might have some boring Undersecretary title or something with a more well known name leading the Space Ministry to distract from Paul actually being the Shadow Broker, so to speak.

Chairman and Chief Executive of Black Arrow, which is on paper a private business.

Also, has Paul met the Queen? I'd like to see something about that and her thoughts on Earth isolation for Britain. The Queen might be if everything else failed....

King Edward is probably married, but I don't think the Queen's name is given in the books. Almost certainly not Wallis Simpson.

Windona said:
Unrelated, but anyone know what chapter(s) are on Amazonian culture, especially regarding male Amazons and the like? I'm talking to a friend about Amazon worldbuilding and they might find it interesting

Homecoming.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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