With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[DAT_NOOB]

If the Corps as a whole does suffer a defeat, I hope Paul personally pays the Reach back with a big move.

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I mean there has to be a reason they fought the GLC to a draw, unless Zoat is implying that the OLC + NEMO would beat the GLC in a straight fight?

Replying to Vaermina:

No, they aren't.

Their best warriors are the Super Scarabs.

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Whenever I look for super scarab on the internet it keeps pointing me to Khaji Da could you please inform me of what a super scarab is?

Yes... Because they are smarter then you...

So far you've been an annoyance to The Reach... The moment you move past that to actual threat. Is the moment they go scorched Earth and trillions die.

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I'm pretty sure between Paul and Grayven they're an actual threat.

 

[Assblaster5000]

So far you've been an annoyance to The Reach... The moment you move past that to actual threat. Is the moment they go scorched Earth and trillions die.

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Responding to Vaermina.

And the moment The Reach do that what happens goes one of two ways.

Either 1:They execute all the species under their control, which largely amounts to a bunch of people they've made to think that's an honour, changing nothing about the war beyond making their side look even worse.

Or 2:They take military action against groups that aren't involved in N.E.M.O.'s campaign and get The Guardians to help smack them into the fucking dirt for breaking the treaty.

 

[FreeGod]

I mean there has to be a reason they fought the GLC to a draw, unless Zoat is implying that the OLC + NEMO would beat the GLC in a straight fight?

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I mean ya they probably would. GLC corps has lost lots of straight fights in DC comics. It's easier to understand when you remember that the GLC really is a police force not a military. A very powerful police force, but still the doctrine is all different and the GLC millitizing might not actually be the best thing for the universe.

Edit: The current OLC would likely not be able to beat the GLC, but that is mostly because the OLC as it currently stands lacks motivation for the task.

 

[lancelot]

"You understand that across most of this region, any Green Lanterns who get recruited are going to look to N.E.M.O. for direction. Which is good for me, but I can't see the Guardians liking it."

"Do you think that the Guardians 'like' the treaty with the Reach?"

"I can only assume that they do, given what the Controllers have been able to do with far less time and resources."

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Well someone with a bug up their ass is feeling petty. After all it isn't like the Controllers were able to do this invasion of Reach without hurting their multigalaxy wide police force... oh wait they don't have one of those do they?

 

[Duke Long]

Guy looks at me like he's not sure what to make of that statement.

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The green speech marks don't show up very well on my background and I forgot Guy's name, so I thought Paul was talking to some random guy for about half the chapter, hahaha.

 

[Karmic Acumen]

And the thought Paul had about the war at the beginning makes me think that we'll see them potentially suffer a massive defeat.

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Didn't that kinda already happen when Paul got soul-bombed out of enlightenment and life?

So far you've been an annoyance to The Reach... The moment you move past that to actual threat. Is the moment they go scorched Earth and trillions die.

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If you're proven right about this, it better just be down to Reach self-importance, because I'll have trouble accepting that everything the Reach threw at the OLC up to now were just tokenisms. At some point the worfing cycle has to stop.

 

[WereDragon]

One think we can be certain of is that the Reach think the GLC would kick their arse.

After the treaty was signed the Reach, logical psychopaths that they are, sat down and decided to re-spec their empire massively to specialise in 'legal' subversion rather than risk round two. Even centuries / millennia later, having gained vast amounts of new territory and (presumably) advanced their technology significantly they still go to great lengths to not break the treaty.

 

[Old Knife]

Paul knows God is hands off. Still shouldn't be poking the actual omnipotent.

 

[Mr Zoat]

"You falsely claimed to have the authority to arrest me and I need something to put on the form when I send you to jail.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Darko]

I expect those further in are given a very doctored spin on the conflict. 'Brave Scarab Warriors brought down by the trickery of jealous antagonists

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Assuming they're even told about it.

The Reqch Empird is big, so it's possible that the loss of some of those territories wasn't all ghat noticeable to them.

Interesting that they'd allow such an exhibition of independence... But then, those on the borders tend to be the loosest about rules.

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Plus, she's spent years watching the Reach win, so she wants payback.

 

[Darko]

Didn't that kinda already happen when Paul got soul-bombed out of enlightenment and life

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Technically, yes.

However, that didn't exactly stick and Paul got better.

I was thinking of something more permanent happening.

 

[Darko]

I have a theory on why the OLC seems to be doing much better than the GLC when it comes to fighting the Reach.

The Reach isn't as competent in military matters as they once were.

They've been getting territory and victories by using manipulation and subterfuge rather military might since their treaty with the Guardians, so their experience with fighting in a war has probably eroded a long time ago.

Whenever they've had to fight someone after the treaty they could have probably overwhelmed them with numbers or superior technology rather than actual tactics.

The OLC is fighting a Reach that hasn't fought a serious war in who knows how long.

The GLC fought a Reach that had both advanced tech and were able to fight a war with experience.

 

[Karmic Acumen]

Technically, yes.

However, that didn't exactly stick and Paul got better.

I was thinking of something more permanent happening.

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That was it. And it should stay it. Soul annihilation is already the domain of divinity. Actually, it's above the domain of a lot of divinity.

 

[Darko]

That was it. And it should stay it.

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Then there won't really be much tension in this story and it won't feel like there are any stakes involved in the fight, so the Reach lose a lot of their potential menace and the fight can feel pointless.

 

[Karmic Acumen]

Then there won't really be much tension in this story and it won't feel like there are any stakes involved in the fight, so the Reach lose a lot of their potential menace and the fight can feel pointless.

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This argument never fails to disappoint me, violence is and never has been the only way to write tension. And even if it was, at this point I can live with the 'loss' better than the alternative. As I added above, soul annihilation is already the domain of divinity. Actually, it's above the domain of a lot of divinity. No amount of tension will buy emotional payoff if it's not credible by the setting's standards. And Zoat clearly recognizes this because he's quite meaningfully pivoted back to interpersonal conflict for tension.

And dreams.

 

[Ardy]

Also, I looked up what the new episode's title meant, and all I got was the name of a disc jockey, so I'm uncertain as to what to expect for this one. Anyone have any ideas?

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One of Jade's teammates misheard what Guy thought Paul's visit to Jade was for. Now every time he visits they think it's about "Paul's dong"

 

[Windona]

Unless I missed something in nu52, Super Scarabs aren't a thing in canon. Might be referring to the fic.

The OLC is probably doing better in part because surprise, concentration of power, and the Reach having changed to infiltration tactics. Reach wrote their rules of engagement for the GLC, which has tighter rules and is more about control. OLC is only really concerned with a comparatively small portion of space, recruiting specifically those who want to beat the Reach and who risk mental instability for greater raw power... and that mental instability isn't inherently beneficial to the Reach.

Compare the GLC, that the Reach presumably knew about before fighting, who are spread across the galaxy, and whose issue with willpower will depower more than the OLC's issues with their light

 

[jonasquinn]

I mean there has to be a reason they fought the GLC to a draw, unless Zoat is implying that the OLC + NEMO would beat the GLC in a straight fight?

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I mean, the reason is pretty self evident

You have to keep in mind that the GLC is a police force not a military, which means it's members aren't trained in how to fight in an actual war and every Lantern that gets sent to fight the Reach would be a sector missing it's primarily law enforcer. It's not that the GLC couldn't beat the Reach back in the day it's that the time and resources it would take would undercut the actual purpose of the GLC

Conversely the OLC was created specifically to fight this war, the average Orange Lantern is stronger than the average Green Lantern, the Controllers are far more actively involved and they're backed up by various allied groups like NEMO, LEGION and the Darkstars

Well someone with a bug up their ass is feeling petty. After all it isn't like the Controllers were able to do this invasion of Reach without hurting their multigalaxy wide police force... oh wait they don't have one of those do they?

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Thats… kind of Paul's point though?

Even before the OLC was founded the Controllers were putting up more of a fight against the Reach than the Guardians were and since it's founding they've successfully managed to push them back

There is seemingly nothing stopping the Guardians from taking some steps to stop the Reach, the fact that they haven't is somewhat of an indication that they're at least happy enough with the current arrangement to not change anything about how they operate

 

[Windona]

I mean, the reason is pretty self evident

You have to keep in mind that the GLC is a police force not a military, which means it's members aren't trained in how to fight in an actual war and every Lantern that gets sent to fight the Reach would be a sector missing it's primarily law enforcer. It's not that the GLC couldn't beat the Reach back in the day it's that the time and resources it would take would undercut the actual purpose of the GLC

Conversely the OLC was created specifically to fight this war, the average Orange Lantern is stronger than the average Green Lantern, the Controllers are far more actively involved and they're backed up by various allied groups like NEMO, LEGION and the Darkstars

Thats… kind of Paul's point though?

Even before the OLC was founded the Controllers were putting up more of a fight against the Reach than the Guardians were and since it's founding they've successfully managed to push them back

There is seemingly nothing stopping the Guardians from taking some steps to stop the Reach, the fact that they haven't is somewhat of an indication that they're at least happy enough with the current arrangement to not change anything about how they operate

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While Paul does have a point about the Reach, because the Guardians are so wide spread I can see that they don't focus on the Reach because that would mean taking resources away from dealing with issues like, say, potentially Apokalypse, Warworld, and other various issues in space. Please note Vega is what happens when GLs aren't in a sector of space for a while, compared to other sectors that seem more stable/less awful

 

[jonasquinn]

While Paul does have a point about the Reach, because the Guardians are so wide spread I can see that they don't focus on the Reach because that would mean taking resources away from dealing with issues like, say, potentially Apokalypse, Warworld, and other various issues in space. Please note Vega is what happens when GLs aren't in a sector of space for a while, compared to other sectors that seem more stable/less awful

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Oh I get that but the war with the Reach was thousands of years ago I believe and the Guardians haven't done anything to fix that flaw in the GLC's design and aren't doing anything about the Reach skirting the treaty, at the very least they find the treaty acceptable enough to not have adjusted anything in response to it

 

[Coda]

g-nomes

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g-gnomes

Thank you, corrected.

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Wow. I knew this was a self-insert story, but that's the most directly self-congratulatory post I've ever seen.

 

[Stsword]

In the show, the GLC was shown to still be at war with the Reach and Apokalips, which in YJ is actively conquering planets instead of Darkseid being a huge wheeny waiting for the next power up as usual.

So I'd say the issue is that the Guardians just considered Apokalips the more immediate threat and saw a war on two fronts inefficient.

Both seem like logical conclusions.

As for more powerful scarab warriors, that's easy enough.

1- More powerful hosts. Plenty of aliens with superpowers in DC, after all. Already seen in YJ canon with the Martian Green Scarab.

2- Add weaponry. In the comics they were shown to make a Sinestro corps Scarab warrior, and were shown trying to assimilate the Blue Lanterns post flashpoint. Neither seems likely in this story, but the principle holds true regardless.

Let's see, let's look at Green Lantern foes for possible power ups like say Evil Star's Star Brand- The fact it makes people insane is probably not an issue for the scarab controlled warriors. Kind of like Ted's cosmic staff, but Ted's staff doesn't have the habit of making people go insane so there's that.

 

[Windona]

In the show, the GLC was shown to still be at war with the Reach and Apokalips, which in YJ is actively conquering planets instead of Darkseid being a huge wheeny waiting for the next power up as usual.

So I'd say the issue is that the Guardians just considered Apokalips the more immediate threat and saw a war on two fronts inefficient.

Both seem like logical conclusions.

As for more powerful scarab warriors, that's easy enough.

1- More powerful hosts. Plenty of aliens with superpowers in DC, after all. Already seen in YJ canon with the Martian Green Scarab.

2- Add weaponry. In the comics they were shown to make a Sinestro corps Scarab warrior, and were shown trying to assimilate the Blue Lanterns post flashpoint. Neither seems likely in this story, but the principle holds true regardless.

Let's see, let's look at Green Lantern foes for possible power ups like say Evil Star's Star Brand- The fact it makes people insane is probably not an issue for the scarab controlled warriors. Kind of like Ted's cosmic staff, but Ted's staff doesn't have the habit of making people go insane so there's that.

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Scarabs are incredibly adaptable normally, though they are way more powerful in the comics than YJ as per usual. (Khaji Da can make a weapon with theological implications in the comics). Blood scarabs are something from *bleck* new 52 Blue Beetle. But I cannot think of something that's specifically called a super scarab, hence me going ???

I wouldn't be surprised if the Reach attempted yellow Lantern scarabs, but other colors might be more difficult depending on color. And actually, I can see the tech of Earth appealing as much as metas for the Reach as a result.

 

[Mr Zoat]

g-gnomes

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Thank you, corrected.

Wow. I knew this was a self-insert story, but that's the most directly self-congratulatory post I've ever seen.

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I saw the problem at work, and I needed to remind myself to fix it on my home copy.

Khaji Da can make a weapon with theological implications in the comics.

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Khaji Da claims to be able to create a weapon with theological implications. It also isn't a Christian, holding the Writ of the Reach as sacred rather than an omnipotent deity.

 

[Windona]

Khaji Da claims to be able to create a weapon with theological implications. It also isn't a Christian, holding the Writ of the Reach as sacred rather than an omnipotent deity.

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I think Khaji Da rejected the holy writ, and ended up spreading a new philosophy that led to the criminally underbaked/used KDRA. And that was said while offering options to fight the Spectre, who claims to be the wrath of God.

Still, point stands that Khaji Da and other scarabs are traditionally pretty dang powerful, especially since they were made to contend with lanterns and in many ways are a mirror to Lantern rings/corps without using anything from the emotional spectrum.

 

[Stsword]

Khaji Da claims to be able to create a weapon with theological implications. It also isn't a Christian, holding the Writ of the Reach as sacred rather than an omnipotent deity.

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The weapon was called an "Implicate-Order Annihilation Field."

The implicate order is the "deeper reality," is has been interpreted as space-time or quantum entanglement.

So the implication is that it destroys space-time itself, or separates every single particle of the target from every other particle in the universe, it doesn't just destroy the target, it takes a bit of creation and uncreates it.

Similar in concept to the Breathing Gun from the Nightside series by Simon R Green, made from Lilith's rib, which uncreates targets by speaking the words of creation backwards.

 

[Vaermina]

Responding to Vaermina.

And the moment The Reach do that what happens goes one of two ways.

Either 1:They execute all the species under their control, which largely amounts to a bunch of people they've made to think that's an honour, changing nothing about the war beyond making their side look even worse.

Or 2:They take military action against groups that aren't involved in N.E.M.O.'s campaign and get The Guardians to help smack them into the fucking dirt for breaking the treaty.

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You're missing the point, it's not about changing the war.

Because as said, the Guardians could beat The Reach.

But the death toll of doing that would be... The entire Reach population... Most of the conquered populations... The dozens, possibly hundreds possibly thousands, of inhabited planets the Reach would destroy because they have nothing left to loose...

So in the face of that the Guardians did the smart thing, they forged a deal with the Reach that slowed the Reach's expansion to a crawl and put them under immense cultural pressure to change their ways. Does that suck for the handful of planets/species the Reach subvert during this time? Absolutely. But the Guardian's understood that the available alternatives were much much worse.

And that's a question everyone in NEMO has been avoiding, The Reach aren't the Spider Guild, they're a near peer of the Guardians, so what are The Reach going to do when they actually get desperate?

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

Green Lantern Corps also went into a war with their 'thou shalt not kill' rule intact.

Orange Lantern Corps never had such a rule on the books.

Power Rings are Awesome.....Power Rings without restrictions on Lethal Force are more so.

EDIT:

This is also something that might short circuit the creation of the Sinestro Corps, as team Orange is doing something that (in the comics) Sinestro wanted from the start. Sinestro pushed his own corps forward not to win, but to force the guardians to unshackle the Greens to allow for lethal force.

Sinestro's easiest option for ring creation got pinched by Paul, so he's done some sort of deputy ring projection thing for that abbot fellow that played with the yellow light. He clearly has some motives for his own Lantern Corps still, but lacks some of the means to create one right now. He's talked to Dox and knows something of the Orange Light....aside from the short introduction of the local Indigo Lanterns we don't know any other sources for ring creation at this time aside from the Guardians, Controllers and The Hippies.

 

[Stsword]

Scarabs are incredibly adaptable normally, though they are way more powerful in the comics than YJ as per usual. (Khaji Da can make a weapon with theological implications in the comics). Blood scarabs are something from *bleck* new 52 Blue Beetle. But I cannot think of something that's specifically called a super scarab, hence me going ???

I wouldn't be surprised if the Reach attempted yellow Lantern scarabs, but other colors might be more difficult depending on color. And actually, I can see the tech of Earth appealing as much as metas for the Reach as a result.

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In the comics, sure, here in this story I don't see the Qwardians handing out yellow power rings any time soon.

 

[Windona]

In the comics, sure, here in this story I don't see the Qwardians handing out yellow power rings any time soon.

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Yeah, hence the 'attempt'. Though Sinestro already has a yellow lantern ring, his exact position regarding Reach and OLC isn't super clear.