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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
I still like plan Flip the Bird. Three Embodiment team-up, maybe call up a fourth if Dr. Mist can help that out.
 
NightmareWarden said:
Is there any realistic possibility that Paul is, basically, Mother of Mercy'd right now? He isn't talking to Hinon, he has suffered a mental attack which will help ensure Earth falls to Mannheim.
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Seems unlikely, certainly not impossible, but seems unlikely.

The ALE has been depicted in various ways, but "it's a mind control agent" and "it warps reality itself" are two different modes.

"Mind control agent" has never caused a hallucination that I can recall, it's too subtle for that sort of thing. And what would be the point? If it could leave Paul hallucinating while catatonic, it could make him think joining the New Gods is a perfect way for humanity to achieve transhumanism.

And if Mannheim has unlocked "warp reality itself" mode than I very much doubt he'd limit it to just screwing with Paul.

Anyway, anyone else amused that Paul's Reach functionary nemesis apparently decided to go Captain Barbarossa with ""The holy writ is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules?" I know I find it amusing.
 
Gotta say, this is a pretty good argument for him having more effort to try and get a personal handle on the other lights and to put that on his schedule if he makes it regardless. Know it won't happen, but I do feel that's more dictated by doylist reasons rather than watsonian ones.
 
lancelot said:
So that would be the time limit now Paul can't drag this out with the slow and easy approach, and he knows he isn't strong enough right now to overwhelm Mannheim and the protections that hide. Him Zoat I know you like to always do this methodically but this would be a very good time to go with rare overwhelming force to solve this problem blow through whatever new god tech hides Mannheim, and wreak this shit. Please stop holding the MC back when brute force is sometimes the answer, or can be written to be the answer easily enough.
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Karmic Acumen said:
That's just author fiat though. Paul has no problem resisting the Anti-Life, so why would the Ophidian do worse than him?
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You might want to consider what 'SI' stands for, and what that means for what the "MC" does in the story that the author is writing and you are not.
 
Jet Fighter (part 5)
  • Threadmarks
    • 31st December 2012
    16:13 GMT -5

    "Riddle me this."

    Mr. Nygma doesn't turn around from his monitors.

    "When is a contract not a contract?"

    "I don't know the answer you want, but I can think of several logically consistent answers. For example, 'when it's upside down', because 'it's' can mean either 'it has the property of' or 'it is only'. Alternately, I could treat the first 'contract' as a document and the second as a legally binding agreement, in which case 'when no one signs it' would be an answer."

    In the reflection on the screen I can see him sneer. "You're so basic. This is why I fight Batman."

    "Because Batman would work out what answer you want, then use that to beat you. I freely accept that I'm not as intelligent as Batman or as you. On the other hand, I can achieve a similar level of success by brute forcing the actual solution. I read a book a few years ago called Un Lun Dun, where the heroine wasn't the prophesised saviour but decided to have a crack at saving the day after the heroine got taken out. Initially, she tried to follow the prophecy, but after one of her friends was killed she stopped, worked out what bits of it she actually needed to complete her objective and did those instead. Batman would try to understand your thought processes, I'd just say 'ring, scan'."

    "I was in your class."

    "You taught classes because it massaged your ego. The rest of them were there to learn things and maybe reform. Which is why your signature is on a contract and theirs aren't. And yes, it works whether you sign your own name or not, Theophilus Carter."

    "Batman would have worked out that I was going to do that."

    "While I just monitored everyone with my rings. I've already admitted that you're more intelligent than me. You really don't need to convince me."

    "Oh, I know that I'm more intelligent than you. But the honest truth is, I think Captain Cold is as well."

    "Possibly. I've never invented a device capable of reducing a target to zero degrees kelvin."

    "Oh, that's clever. But it's not that."

    "Okay, what is it? Is it-?"

    "He reinvented the wheel, Orange Lantern. He knew next to nothing about physics notation so he invented his own. Have you ever tried doing base nine maths?"

    "I once very briefly tried doing base thirteen maths."

    "Base thirteen-. Hitchhiker's Guide, where Douglas Adams didn't write a joke in base thirteen. How much do you think doing everything in base ten limits our thinking?"

    "Not at all. I have data on thousands of cultures who do maths in various ways, and there's no real correlation between base and development speed."

    "I didn't ask 'does it limit people'. I asked how it 'limits our thinking'."

    "I don't know." … "You taught yourself to do base eight maths, didn't you?"

    "Please. I can think in any base."

    "Including tw-"

    "Two and a half, yes."

    "-o and-. Probability, or did you know I was going to say that?"

    "It's a riddle."

    "I can see your face in the reflection, you can probably see mine. Between the shape of my mouth and the starting sound, guessing 'two' isn't hard. Half is quicker to say than 'quarter'. Though I should warn you that a lecturer once asked what came next in the sequence 'one, two, four, eight', and I said 'seventy seven'."

    "Were you right?"

    "I wasn't wrong. The pattern was 'each new number is bigger than the one before'. It was supposed to teach us that most people assume things and won't try and falsify their assumptions. Most people guess 'sixteen' and then stop."

    "But not you."

    "But not me. I think I was the only one in the entire lecture theatre who actually did the required reading, which explained the whole thing."

    "I suppose that knowing when to mindlessly obey is a skill in itself."

    "Mister Nygma, could you please explain something to me?"

    "Probably."

    "You've read your own psychological profile, both the Arkham one and the Belle Reve one."

    "Quinzel has a second class mind at best."

    "I doubt that she's got your IQ, but she does want to help you get better. And as far as I can tell, you don't."

    I start to pace a little, and I can see the reflection of his eyes following me.

    "Your father's dead. Everyone who knows you acknowledges that you're a very intelligent man. Crock isn't up here, looking at this. And neither are Leonard or Tuttle, and you know how much I respect their work. Batman wouldn't have put you here if he thought that he could work it out without you, so… Riddle me this: why is the Riddler?"

    "That's even easier than your lecture hall answer. My 'neuroatypicality' isn't that I like riddles. If you want that, you should go and talk to Cluemaster. It's my compulsion to tell the truth when I misbehave. It's why I'm talking to you now rather than just ignoring you; I can't… Not. The reason that I got sent to Belle Reve and not Arkham is that I'm not legally 'insane'. I know perfectly well what good and evil are, otherwise I wouldn't be compelled to leave confessional riddles around when I do evil."

    "But you… Do it for validation, right? I was sort of hoping that I could provide you with intellectually challenging problems for the rest of your life and you'd abandon the whole 'Riddler' thing."

    "Not until I beat the Batman."

    "Would..? Working out how to fix this mess count?"

    "I don't know yet. Probably not. He wants me to do this."

    "You're using him as a stand-in for your father?"

    "Yes, I realised that years ago. And I don't like it because I hate the idea that an ignoramus like him had such a major effect on my life."

    "You know… Doctor Quinzel does.. actually want to help. And you just said that you want to change. I don't have to be as intelligent as you to see an opportunity here."

    "Then you should have thought of that before you embarrassed me in front of my peers. Now if you'll excuse me, I have work to do."
     
    Last edited:
  • Threadmarks
    • Mr Zoat said:
    31st December 2012
    16:13 GMT -5

    "Riddle me this."

    Mr. Nygma doesn't around from his monitors.

    "When is a contract not a contract?"
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    I swear, if this is like 'Why is a Raven like a Writing Desk?' you will be getting such a pinch, see if you don't. And if you're just out to get your ego stroked, OL is not the man to perform that task, no matter what you might have heard about his tastes. :sneaky:

    "I don't know the answer you want, but I can think of several logically consistent answers. For example, 'when it's upside down', because 'it's' can mean either 'it has the property of' or 'it is only'. Alternately, I could treat the first 'contract' as a document and the second as a legally binding agreement, in which case 'when no one signs it' would be an answer."

    In the reflection on the screen I can see him sneer. "You're so basic. This is why I fight Batman."
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    Batman has been dealing with you for years, and knows you inside out. He barely has to think about the wording of a riddle to comprehend it,

    "Because Batman would work out what answer you want, then use that to beat you. I freely accept that I'm not as intelligent as Batman or as you. On the other hand, I can achieve a similar level of success by brute forcing the actual solution. I read a book a few years ago called Un Lun Dun, where the heroine wasn't the prophesised saviour but decided to have a crack at saving the day after the heroine got taken out. Initially, she tried to follow the prophecy, but after one of her friends was killed she stopped, worked out what bits of it she actually needed to complete her objective and did those instead. Batman would try to understand your thought processes, I'd just say 'ring, scan'."
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    And once again, prophecies that are deliberately vague prove annoying as well. On the other hand, you could have had something like the Belgariad's Prophecies, which laid out everything the heroes and villains needed, merely garbled by having been filtered through the mind of a madman. o_O More often than not, they only realised something was pertinent as it was needed...

    "I was in your class."

    "You taught classes because it massaged your ego. The rest of them were there to learn things and maybe reform. Which us why your signature is on a contract and theirs aren't. And yes, it works whether you sign your own name or not, Theophilus Carter."
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    An actual person, by the way. An amusing detail: He was said to have been the inspiration for the Mad Hatter in Lewis Carrol's stories. And who else is a Batman villain? :p

    "Batman would have worked out that I was going to do that."

    "While I just monitored everyone with my rings. I've already admitted that you're more intelligent than me. You really don't need to convince me."
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    And OL doesn't really care about that. Which is probably what's getting under Eddie's skin.

    "Oh, I know that I'm more intelligent than you. But the honest truth is, I think Captain Cold is as well."

    "Possibly. I've never invented a device capable of reducing a target to zero degrees kelvin."
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    OL by himself is not all that smarter than the average person. It's why his go-to action when presented with a problem is 'call a smarter friend.'

    "Oh, that's clever. But it's not that."

    "Okay, what is it? Is it-?"

    "He reinvented the wheel, Orange Lantern. He knew next to nothing about physics notation so he invented his own. Have you ever tried doing base nine maths?"
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    Sounds like a rather non-imal conundrum. :p

    "I once very briefly tried doing base thirteen maths."

    "Base thirteen-. Hitchhiker's Guide, where Douglas Adams didn't write a joke in base thirteen. How much do you think doing everything in base ten limits our thinking?"
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    Well, at least he can trade jokes and barbs like a pro.

    "Not at all. I have data on thousands of cultures who do maths in various ways, and there's no real correlation between base and development speed."

    "I didn't ask 'does it limit people'. I asked how it 'limits our thinking'."
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    ...Oh, that's where you're going with this, is it, Eddie? For god's sake, if you want your ego stroked...

    "I don't know." … "You taught yourself to do base eight maths, didn't you?"

    "Please. I can think in any base."
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    ...I'm sure you can stroke yourself just fine. :p

    "Including tw-"

    "Two and a half, yes."
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    Sounds a little irrational.

    "-o and-. Probability, or did you know I was going to say that?"

    "It's a riddle."
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    The pinch option is still on the table, Question-Mark Man.

    "I can see your face in the reflection, you can probably see mine. Between the shape of my mouth and the starting sound, guessing 'two' isn't hard. Half is quicker to say than 'quarter'. Though I should warn you that a lecturer once asked what came next in the sequence 'one, two, four, eight', and I said 'seventy seven'."

    "Were you right?"
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    I don't think that's the point, Eddie.

    "I wasn't wrong. The pattern was 'each new number is bigger than the one before'. It was supposed to teach us that most people assume things and won't try and falsify their assumptions. Most people guess 'sixteen' and then stop."

    "But not you."
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    His assumptions just tend to be a little more... Out there, than others.

    "But not me. I think I was the only one in the entire lecture theatre who actually did the required reading, which explained the whole thing."

    "I suppose that knowing when to mindlessly obey is a skill in itself."
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    I suppose there's always one in every class...

    "Mister Nygma, could you please explain something to me?"

    "Probably."

    "You've read your own psychological profile, both the Arkham one and the Belle Reve one."
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    And I'm sure they were very fascinating.

    "Quinzel has a second class mind at best."

    "I doubt that she's got your IQ, but she does want to help you get better. And as far as I can tell, you don't."
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    He is what he is, and he seems happy enough with it. Trying to nudge him off a self-destructive path, perhaps?

    I start to pace a little, and I can see the reflection of his eyes following me.

    "Your father's dead. Everyone who knows you acknowledges that you're a very intelligent man. Crock isn't up here, looking at this. And neither are Leonard or Tuttle, and you know how much I respect their work. Batman wouldn't have put you here if he thought that he could work it out without you, so… Riddle me this: why is the Riddler?"
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    In other words, why are you the way you are, and why do you keep being that way even when you've had so many opportunities to not be that way? I'm reminded of that Spider-man meme, with the pterodactyl man who could have cured cancer with his research... But would rather turn people into dinosaur men.

    "That's even easier than your lecture hall answer. My 'neuroatypicality' isn't that I like riddles. If you want that, you should go and talk to Cluemaster. It's my compulsion to tell the truth when I misbehave. It's why I'm talking to you now rather than just ignoring you; I can't… Not. The reason that I got sent to Belle Reve and not Arkham is that I'm not legally 'insane'. I know perfectly well what good and evil are, otherwise I wouldn't be compelled to leave confessional riddles around when I do evil."
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    And it's no fun if no-one around you isn't acknowledging that you're the smartest guy in the room, huh?

    "But you… Do it for validation, right? I was sort of hoping that I could provide you with intellectually challenging problems for the rest of your life and you'd abandon the whole 'Riddler' thing."

    "Not until I beat the Batman."
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    Because of course it comes down to "I want to prove I;m smarter then the Man Dressed Like A Bat.' :rolleyes:

    "Would..? Working out how to fix this mess count?"

    "I don't know yet. Probably not. He wants me to do this."
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    Which probably explains why you're trying so hard to not work on it.

    "You're using his as a stand-in for your father?"

    "Yes, I realised that years ago. And I don't like it because I hate the idea that an ignoramus like him had such a major effect on my life."
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    And yet you can't stop thinking that, can you?

    "You know… Doctor Quinzel does.. actually want to help. And you just said that you want to change. I don't have to be as intelligent as you to see an opportunity here."

    "Then you should have thought of that before you embarrassed me in front of my peers. Now if you'll excuse me, I have work to do."
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    Ah, and there we have the whole point of this little discussion. "Boo-hoo, you bruised my ego. Now bark for me, doggie, or I won't help you save the world."

    Ah, Eddie. Such a brilliant mind, weighed down with such stupid hang-ups. And that one sentence could describe so many smart people in the DC Universe. If it weren't for that (and Status Quo) just imagine what Earth would be like... Still, if Eddie can be persuaded to let go of this damn fool grudge he has, maybe he could one day become the World's Greatest Detective...
     
    Vaermina said:
    Your daily reminder that LePaul is a goldfish.

    Mind you, it's also a reminder that LePaul has used his Ring as a crutch for so long that his critical thinking skills have devolved to the level of a particularly surely teenager.
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    He's become a full on Greenie. In the beginning Paul questioned why the Lanterns never did "insert every idea Paul came up with or borrowed from Prime Earth" but now coming up with different ways of doing things is difficult because using the ring to do it is easy. To paraphrase the words of a certain ghost Paul is now "A very strong and scary person with a spoon, capable of spooning harder and faster than anyone else".
     
    Vaermina said:
    Your daily reminder that LePaul is a goldfish.

    Mind you, it's also a reminder that LePaul has used his Ring as a crutch for so long that his critical thinking skills have devolved to the level of a particularly surely teenager.
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    That and he's running around in the body of someone around the age of 16-19 when was the last time you saw someone that young make an intelligent decision constantly
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    "Then you should have thought of that before you embarrassed me in front of my peers."
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    You know, Riddler, that sounds like a you problem. Just say you enjoy spite more than sanity.

    I mean, it really can be rewritten to "Why is the Riddler?" "Because fuck you." Seems a sentiment somewhat below a "high-tier mind".

    The (rather, one) problem with intelligent characters is that it's really hard to have them not be responsible for their decisions.
     
    The sad part is, even if Paul tells Bruce about this, it won't help, because if Bruce just lets Eddie outsmart him at some point, Eddie will realize he did and thus the victory will feel hollow.

    My advice to Mr. Nygma would be along these lines: "Unfortunately, you've been facing off with Batman for so long that he knows you too well to be tricked any more--he understands your thought processes from years of experience, and as a result, even if he's less intelligent, he can still recognize the pattern and follow your logic to get to the right answer anyway. You might be better able to prove yourself more intelligent than Batman by instead trying to demonstrate that you can outsmart someone else who has outsmarted Batman in the past, though. Perhaps outsmarting Lex Luthor, Vandal Savage, or Ra's al Ghul would do it--Lex is, arguably, the single most intelligent person on Earth, after all, while Savage and Ra's have impressive minds and literal centuries of experience to educate those minds. All three have outsmarted Batman in the past--if you could outsmart them, then wouldn't you, by proxy, outsmart the Bat?"

    Basically, suggest that Batman knows him too well and thus can't be fooled any more, but if he manages to beat someone who is indisputably smarter than Batman...
     
    rdfox said:
    The sad part is, even if Paul tells Bruce about this, it won't help, because if Bruce just lets Eddie outsmart him at some point, Eddie will realize he did and thus the victory will feel hollow.

    My advice to Mr. Nygma would be along these lines: "Unfortunately, you've been facing off with Batman for so long that he knows you too well to be tricked any more--he understands your thought processes from years of experience, and as a result, even if he's less intelligent, he can still recognize the pattern and follow your logic to get to the right answer anyway. You might be better able to prove yourself more intelligent than Batman by instead trying to demonstrate that you can outsmart someone else who has outsmarted Batman in the past, though. Perhaps outsmarting Lex Luthor, Vandal Savage, or Ra's al Ghul would do it--Lex is, arguably, the single most intelligent person on Earth, after all, while Savage and Ra's have impressive minds and literal centuries of experience to educate those minds. All three have outsmarted Batman in the past--if you could outsmart them, then wouldn't you, by proxy, outsmart the Bat?"

    Basically, suggest that Batman knows him too well and thus can't be fooled any more, but if he manages to beat someone who is indisputably smarter than Batman...
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    And then Vandal Savage has him assassinated for showing him to be a moron.
     
    Is E.Nygma Riddler's real name? What I mean is did Riddler change his full legal name to a pun or did his parents actually name him that?
     
    Bud-E said:
    Is E.Nygma Riddler's real name? What I mean is did Riddler change his full legal name to a pun or did his parents actually name him that?
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    I had a brother who had two engineering professors, one named Dr. Light and another Dr. Wily. Another brother has a friend named 'Joy Savage'. And given that my own first name is a virtue, don't rule out parents giving punny names.
     
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