With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Oglymogly · Jun 12, 2024

You know, I've never seen MLP*, but reading this chapter really does feel like I'm watching a episode of it, likely a later season with a reformed villain in it. Not that I'm naming names or pointing fingers (hooves?) or anything.

Anyways, thank you for the chapter, I really do enjoy the Renegade segments.

* Not actually true, several years ago two of my friends learned that I've never seen it and made me watch the first two episodes. I could see why people liked it, but pilots aren't great for judging a whole show.

Chojin Patriarch · Jun 12, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
10th April 2013
23:36 GMT -7

"Twilight!"

Spike hurries over to his primary caregiver's side, putting his hands on her side and trying to shake her awake. Sunset's horn glows for a moment and I recognise a basic diagnostic spell being fired off, and given that she rolls her eyes afterwards I assume that Twilight doesn't have anything seriously wrong with her.

Honestly, unless she cracked her head against something on the way down, or at least bounced her head on the floor, there's not too much to worry about. After all, Ponies are impressively durable, right down to their skulls, and Alicorns moreso. And the Renegade could repair any serious brain injury...

This is inconvenient.

I trot closer and take a small vial of smelling salts out of subspace while Spike frantically checks her breathing and pulse. Lid off and lower it to her muzzle-.

Careful, spooked horses tend to be rather lively. and something like smelling salts will spook anything.

Spike jerks his head around as the vial passes him. "What are you-?" His muzzle wrinkles. "Ew!"

"Yep." I watch Twilight's nostrils twitch twice, then her eyes snap open and her hooves try and drag her out of range without clearing things with her not-entirely-up-to-speed brain. I put the stopper back on as she tries to finish her reboot while simultaneously getting that smell out of her nose. "Wake up juice. Marvellous stuff. Back with us, Princess?"

Heh. Got to love when the instincts move faster than the thinking bits.

"Ah… Yes, yes, but-." Her eyes widen as she gets to the 'Celestia is abdicating' part. "I'm sorry, I don't think I'm remembering things right. Because I thought you said-."

"I did. Not immediately, but that's the direction she's heading in."

I suspect they convinced her that the resulting meltdown, if it were immediate, would likely be worse than the upheavals during her fight with Tirek.

Twilight goes still. "Oh."

Spike frowns. "Did Princess Celestia say why she's quitting?"

I mean... It's not like she has issues with the management. Given that she is the management.

I shrug. "She's been doing a job not actually related to her special talent for over a thousand years. I think she just wants a change."

Sunset snorts, muttering something under her breath.

Yes, we can guess your opinion on the matter, and the guesses at her motivation.

Twilight looks at her for a moment. "I'm sorry? I didn't catch that."

Sunset looks her full on. "She's gotten old."

Now, now. I'm sure she's still not even middle-aged for an Alicorn.

Twilight looks like she's still a little behind events. "Ah… A thousand years is fairly old…"

"Equestria is finally industrialising. With the railways and the printing press, Equestrian society will change faster now than it has in the last thousand years. And since Celestia has spent time studying what happened to human society when that happened, she knows it. I think that she thinks that she can't handle it."

The benefit of having a clear example of it. There's probably a measure of 'Do I really want to have to learn about all these new things?' too...

Twilight frowns, though by now she's at least a little used to Sunset's attitude to her former teacher. "Equestria hasn't just stayed the same for the last thousand years." She walks-. She's pacing. She's pacing in a circle. "It can't just be that she doesn't think she can handle it." She stops, looking at me. "What about Princess Luna?"

Perhaps it's more that she doesn't want her older-fashioned attitudes to hold the country back.

I wing-shrug. "She can't produce a new Princess Regnant for about seventeen years, and I think that Celestia wants to quit before that."

Twilight stops circling, tilting her head slightly to the right as she looks at me in puzzlement. "Why would it take seventeen years?"

...Really, Twilight? I know you're a little unsteady right now, but surely you can understand the basics of...

"A year to bear the foal, sixteen years to-" Twilight's cheeks colour. "-reach its majority."

Sunset tosses her mane. "And I don't have time to run a country."

Just imagine how skilled Luna and the Renegade's child would be in rulership, especially with the very best training. Assuming they don't have a bout of teenage rebellion and go off to become a space pirate or something.

"Yes." I nod. "That's the only reason."

Sunset limits her response to raising her left eyebrow at me before returning her attention to Twilight. "Celestia was just going to drop this on you and then fly off-" Twilight's eyes widen again. "-but we talked her into giving you some warning."

I suspect even the thought of it triggered a little bit of a panic attack right there...

Twilight raises her right hoof to her chest, inhaling deeply as she does so. Then she exhales, thrusting her right hoof forward. Breathes in, hoof in, breathes out, hoof out.

Spike watches her trying to calm down, then turns to me. "Was that everything?"

Perhaps she needs a stiff drink of something calming? Shot of sugary cider, maybe?

"I'm afraid not. We talked Celestia into decelerating her retirement plans."

"Oh." He thinks for a moment, then nods. "That sounds like a good idea."

Yes, they gathered that. Anyone who knows Twilight would probably agree on that.

"But unless Twilight wants to turn her down-"

Twilight starts hyperventilating, her hoof blurring as she tries to keep up with her breathing.

...I'd say that's a hard 'ee-nope!'

"-we need to teach her how to exercise regnant authority. And that starts with Ponyville."

Spike tries waving his hands to get Twilight's attention, but it doesn't work. I-.

Time to break out the booze. Anyone got a hipflask of cider?

Sunset nudges me aside. "No, I've got this one." Her horn glows as she conjures a paper bag from somewhere, then levitates it over Twilight's muzzle and holds it there.

Twilight… Gradually slows down, her foreleg flailing slightly less before eventually flopping back to the floor.

I just love that Sunset gets Twilight that well.

"Oh-kay." Twilight looks at Sunset, who hesitates for a moment before floating the paper bag off Twilight's muzzle. "Okay. What do you mean, 'starts with Ponyville'?"

I smile in what I hope is a calming and reassuring manner. "If you're doing this, and I emphasise if-" Twilight twitches and Sunset raises the paper bag threateningly. "-then we think it would be best if you started off ruling something smaller and simpler than an entire country."

Because, after all, she is going to make mistakes, no matter how much she reads up on governance.

"Yeah. That.. sounds like a good idea."

Sunset nods. "And because the whole point is to dump Equestria on someone who knows how industrialisation works, we need to industrialise Ponyville. Or rather, you do."

As long as said industrialisation doesn't lead to the kind of pollution it did on Earth. Though I suspect pegasi could mitigate that.

Sunset's horn glows, and a pile of papers appears next to Twilight.

"Congratulations, Duchess Twilight Sparkle of the Duchy of Ponyville."

Well, then.

She looks at Sunset, then at the paperwork, then at Sunset, but her horn's already glowing as she picks up the pages. "But I'm already a princess."

"Yes, but you can't be Princess of Ponyville unless Celestia makes it an independent country, and we thought that would be too much work when you don't even know how to run a duchy. Legally, someone who rules a city is a duke or duchess, so now you're a duchess and a princess." Sunset emits a low growl. "Whereas I haven't even been awarded my doctorate yet."

And that is a legal thing. For instance, the British royal family's members often have multiple noble titles, like Duke of Sussex, Duke of Edinburgh, that sort of thing. Usually it's a mark of their proximity to the throne.

I nod. "That's the problem with being more intelligent than the review committee."

"I turned myself into an alicorn. That should be all the proof I need to show that I know what I'm talking about."

Yes, but you still have to write papers about it, and I suspect the committee is having trouble following it all. Maybe illustrations would help?

I decide to move on. "Now, that 'duchess' thing doesn't go into effect until you actually agree to any of this, and you'll need to discuss this with the Ponyville mayor. If you keep going you'll get to the part which defines the proposed area of the duchy, the extend of your authority and the suggestions Sunset and I came up with to improve the local economy and the provisional contracts that the company which we intend to set up has been offered by the Crown and by governments on Earth. Celestia has already approved moving Starswirl's Mirror to Ponyville to simplify matters."

Sounds like a lot of the work is already done for her. Which will probably help her settle into the idea.

Twilight is now at the centre of a cylindrical wall of paperwork. "Uh-huh."

"And your tail is on fire."

She's not that angry. Yet.

And yes, I get what he was trying to do.

"Uh-huh."

"Okay, she's good. Spike, probably a good idea to keep an eye-."

Make sure she eats, goes to the bathroom in the right place, that sort of thing? He's dealt with her research fugues before, I expect.

The looks he gives me says 'no shit' and 'I've been doing this literally since I hatched'.

"You've got this. Good lad. We'll be in Ponyville for the rest of the day if anyone need us. Do you need anything right now?"

Somehow, I suspect the people of the town will be wondering 'oh no, what's going on now?' when they see the Alicorns visiting.

He considers for a moment. "Could you let the girls know that Twilight's going to need them in about… Half an hour? I think that's when she'll start coming out of this."

I nod. "Will do. I-."

If nothing else, they'll keep her head on straight.

"Spike!" Twilight starts moving, paperwork still forming a shield wall around her. "I need census data for every major city in Equestria for the last fifty years, a topographical map of the Ponyville area, and…"

Spike grabs the notepad and pen and starts frantically scribing as Sunset and I walk out of the palace.

Somehow, I expect ball-point pens will probably be popular in the bureaucracy of Equestria before long. certainly, it's going to be handy for Spike.

All right, then. The ball is rolling, and Twilight is at least not fleeing madly in front of it.

I'm sure we'll see how she adjusts later. So, then, where will we be visiting next once we look away from the ponies? OL still stuck with Bleez? Krono making preparations for a trip to Falloutverse England? Some other alternate that percolates through the quantum foam? Who knows? Other than Mr Zoat, of course...

Coltsguy · Jun 12, 2024

Spike never did get to eat his gem.

Mr Zoat · Jun 12, 2024

Chojin Patriarch said:
Honestly, unless she cracked her head against something on the way down, or at least bounced her head on the floor, there's not too much to worry about. After all, Ponies are impressively durable, right down to their skulls, and Alicorns moreso. And the Renegade could repair any serious brain injury...

Twilight one had a literal anvil dropped on her head, and was fine afterwards.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg-hzg2kYsU

...

Fine-ish.

WereDragon · Jun 12, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Sunset tosses her mane. "And I don't have time to run a country."

"Yes." I nod. "That's the only reason."

Thank the source Grayven's view of her isn't that rose-tinted. While Sunset is a great mage and has achieved at least basic proficiency at being a person, she is not ruler material. To petty and vengeful, far too self-interested and utterly lacking in the necessary people skills.

"I turned myself into an alicorn. That should be all the proof I need to show that I know what I'm talking about."

Cadence turned herself into an Alicorn, as did Twilight. Should people start treating them like they know what they talking about just because of that?

Impatient_Quill · Jun 12, 2024

Couldn't they just make Ponyville a Principality?

Mr Zoat · Jun 12, 2024

WereDragon said:
Cadence turned herself into an Alicorn, as did Twilight. Should people start treating them like they know what they talking about just because of that?

No, they got turned into alicorns. It's not quite the same thing when you can show your working.

Impatient_Quill said:
Couldn't they just make Ponyville a Principality?

Since Celestia is an autocrat, yes. However, there's no legal mechanism to do so, and no one would know how to handle it.

Cuchulin · Jun 13, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Twilight one had a literal anvil dropped on her head, and was fine afterwards.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg-hzg2kYsU

...

Fine-ish.

Always be careful to avoid being directly under Derpy Hooves.

Mr Zoat · Jun 13, 2024

11th April 2013
14:13 GMT +5:30

Indians can be a surprisingly fatalistic bunch.

I remember hearing that on a documentary, which focused on a ridiculously unsafe road up a mountain. There was a small shrine at the bottom where they could make an offering for good fortune, and then it was a long journey on a poorly maintained and very busy road along a mountain with no guard rail. Theologically, it makes a kind of sense. If suffering repays karmic debt for your inevitable reincarnation, suffering is less of a concern. A logic that led to the very real Thuggee sect and their modern successors in Kobra.

Not that Christianity has anything to boast about, not given how close the Resurrection Crusade came to ending free will.

Before the Broadcast, despite the Sheeda's best efforts, India was home to over a billion people. Now, it's… A lot less. Their city bosses were weirdly brutal, combining the worst aspects of Hinduism with Apokoliptian class structure. In rural areas, a depressingly large number of people literally just laid down and died, the opposite of what happened in most other countries. And then there's the fact that the country never had the best infrastructure…

On the positive side, the coal mines and power stations that provide urban India with electricity are up and running at something approaching full capacity. On the negative side… Everything else. With oil extraction globally… Fallen off a cliff, rural farming machinery lies dormant. Of course, in the places that rely on manual labour or animal labour, that's less of a problem. Cows don't need petrol to pull a plough. But the deaths are a problem, because the alternative to threshing machines is human labour and the humans are either flat out not there or they're in the wrong place.

But at least I get to feel the großbritannienfreude that comes from being an Englishman building stuff in India. Which -given that I'm an Orange Lantern- actually helps things.

I look down at the new residents of a small village where almost everyone jumped off a nearby cliff. The survivors got relocated to another nearby village where some of them had family and that needed the labour. Which left a perfectly functional village with decent fields empty of people. The new inhabitants are mostly second generation city residents who will be relying on their elder's memories of farming as well as the farming manuals in English and Hindi we left in all of the houses. I don't know if it's going to work, but it's better than leaving them in the slums that were shitty places to live before civilisation collapsed.

But for now, they've got clean water, nutritional wafers, vitamin tablets and a few hundred blocks of that weird US government subsidised cheese that they can refrigerate because I included power lines with the road. Enough to live on, if not exactly satisfying. A pile of coal, because we've got plenty of coal and exchanging it for Justice League money will put money in circulation and hopefully get markets working again. Electric heaters and fans because they're mechanically simple and run on electricity.

"Okay, road done. Anything else you urgently-"

Kara erupts from the ground nearby, having bored down to the water table and heat visioned the sides of the hole into a new well.

"-need?"

No doctors or nurses. The closest is in a town that's about five and a half days away on foot. No medicines. No vehicles-. Or rather, no petrol to fuel them. Animals they have, and more are available if they round them up. Basic tools they have, and some wood.

"No." The elderly man heading up the group who actually came out to meet us shakes his head. "We will survive."

"Best of luck with that."

Kara spins, throwing out a cloud of dirt as she spin cleans herself. While Bleez… Is just sort of looking puzzled.

I could ask Kara to gather some animals, but they're not an immediate necessity and we've got a lot of villages to get through.

Next road. Kara grabs the shipping container and reattaches it to Bleez's ship, then grabs hold of the ship and accelerates away. The ship can't go as fast as Kara can inside an atmosphere, but between the shields, inertial dampeners and Nth metal armour it can handle her acceleration. I transition back to the nearest main road and start transmuting again. Level the ground, add stones and compact, add tarmac, add cat's-eyes and road markings and power lines and drainage channels and get moving because India is large.

Ring, open channel to Bleez.

Compliance.

"Illustres to Bleez. Something on your mind?"

"We don't have places like this on Havania. Or on Thanagar."

"I wouldn't expect you to. I did say that our technology level was widely variable."

"I thought it was damage from one of the invasions."

"The details are, but the way of life? No, that was there before. Advanced technology hasn't tricked down to everywhere in our society in the way that it has in places like Thanagar."

"That's not quite it. Our slaves don't exactly have the latest grav-cars, but they do have better farming machinery and… Organisation than this."

"How do you mean?"

"Havania was meant to be a garden. All our farms are laid out in grids, with irrigation canals and roads and everything in place. In places the thanagarians don't have to look unless they're the overseer or if they really want to. I don't know what it looked like before we geoscaped it, but now there's basically nothing that isn't set out just the way we like it. Here it's like they just sort of started farming wherever they were."

"Probably."

"And not being able to get power for tools. I though you had bleed torsion generators?"

"I do, and about a dozen or so genius-in-their-fields worldwide could probably make more, but that's not enough to have one for every appliance."

"So, one for each village?"

"No. Far too many villages. Also, we don't have good enough batteries to really take advantage of it even if we had enough. Even the really advanced places would rather plug right into a power source than use storage."

I snort.

"Shorter structures are more stable. Lower centre of gravity. We're having to deliberately reduce the 'tech level' of our civilisation to preserve it. While… At the same time advancing it in some areas. I think that future historians are going to have some very harsh things to say about us, the smug gits."

"Doesn't technology make everything easier?"

"Yes, but it comes with increasingly complex logistical and educational requirements. Our logistics are badly broken and will continue to be for at least a year, and we lost a lot of people with specialist knowledge. Imagine… Imagine what would happen to the Thanagarian Empire if… Half the people who knew anything about making or working with Nth metal died, that's the equivalent. You'd have to train loads more people, and the people who had the knowledge would have to focus on training and not other projects. Just about every sector of the Empire's economy would suffer, and the Empire's government would have to think seriously about using non-Nth metal based technology to keep things going."

"Yeah, I… I get it. Ah… Did your oracle have some kind of vision about that?"

"Ah, yes, but the Seven Devils would have to manifest in the material universe first. They still know more about the stuff than anyone, and could probably subvert technology based on it."

"So is this-? It? You just have to accept your people living like their ancient ancestors?"

"No. This isn't permanent, we will rebuild, it's just the best we can do for now."

jasonh23761 · Jun 13, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
"So is this-? It? You just have to accept your people living like their ancient ancestors?"

"No. This isn't permanent, we will rebuild, it's just the best we can do for now."

This too shall pass.

Chojin Patriarch · Jun 13, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
11th April 2013
14:13 GMT +5:30

Indians can be a surprisingly fatalistic bunch.

I remember hearing that on a documentary, which focused on a ridiculously unsafe road up a mountain. There was a small shrine at the bottom where they could make an offering for good fortune, and then it was a long journey on a poorly maintained and very busy road along a mountain with no guard rail. Theologically, it makes a kind of sense. If suffering repays karmic debt for your inevitable reincarnation, suffering is less of a concern. A logic that led to the very real Thuggee sect and their modern successors in Kobra.

There's a good reason many rekt videos often feature Indians. Especially ones featuring trains, because of a dumb meme.

Still, they're a vast and varied people, with so many ethnic groups, any belief is correct just by density of faith.

Not that Christianity has anything to boast about, not given how close the Resurrection Crusade came to ending free will.

So glad that's not a thing the real world has to deal with, at least...

Before the Broadcast, despite the Sheeda's best efforts, India was home to over a billion people. Now, it's… A lot less. Their city bosses were weirdly brutal, combining the worst aspects of Hinduism with Apokoliptian class structure. In rural areas, a depressingly large number of people literally just laid down and died, the opposite of what happened in most other countries. And then there's the fact that the country never had the best infrastructure…

Like I said, many and varied groups. And since, unless you're overly zealous with your killing, people always manage to make more people easily enough...

On the positive side, the coal mines and power stations that provide urban India with electricity are up and running at something approaching full capacity. On the negative side… Everything else. With oil extraction globally… Fallen off a cliff, rural farming machinery lies dormant. Of course, in the places that rely on manual labour or animal labour, that's less of a problem. Cows don't need petrol to pull a plough. But the deaths are a problem, because the alternative to threshing machines is human labour and the humans are either flat out not there or they're in the wrong place.

So lots of people being relocated from one place to another. Bet that's giving the oldest among them flashbacks.

But at least I get to feel the großbritannienfreude that comes from being an Englishman building stuff in India. Which -given that I'm an Orange Lantern- actually helps things.

And this time, you're not doing it in the name of profit. So overall win there.

I look down at the new residents of a small village where almost everyone jumped off a nearby cliff. The survivors got relocated to another nearby village where some of them had family and that needed the labour. Which left a perfectly functional village with decent fields empty of people. The new inhabitants are mostly second generation city residents who will be relying on their elder's memories of farming as well as the farming manuals in English and Hindi we left in all of the houses. I don't know if it's going to work, but it's better than leaving them in the slums that were shitty places to live before civilisation collapsed.

What's the bet there'll be a lot of complaining at first, but once their stomachs start grumbling, they'll roll up sleeves and get on with it?

But for now, they've got clean water, nutritional wafers, vitamin tablets and a few hundred blocks of that weird US government subsidised cheese that they can refrigerate because I included power lines with the road. Enough to live on, if not exactly satisfying. A pile of coal, because we've got plenty of coal and exchanging it for Justice League money will put money in circulation and hopefully get markets working again. Electric heaters and fans because they're mechanically simple and run on electricity.

And low likelihood of someone stealing it all and selling it, because who could they sell it to?

"Okay, road done. Anything else you urgently-"

Kara erupts from the ground nearby, having bored down to the water table and heat visioned the sides of the hole into a new well.

"-need?"

The joy of kryptonian biology. Who needs tools for digging when your skin is harder than most kinds of stone? Well, unless you needed massive scales of operation...

No doctors or nurses. The closest is in a town that's about five and a half days away on foot. No medicines. No vehicles-. Or rather, no petrol to fuel them. Animals they have, and more are available if they round them up. Basic tools they have, and some wood.

"No." The elderly man heading up the group who actually came out to meet us shakes his head. "We will survive."

Or die trying, and the attempt will help improve their karma. If not other people's morale.

"Best of luck with that."

Kara spins, throwing out a cloud of dirt as she spin cleans herself. While Bleez… Is just sort of looking puzzled.

I could ask Kara to gather some animals, but they're not an immediate necessity and we've got a lot of villages to get through.

She's probably never even seen poverty this extreme before. Especially if her life was so stage-managed that any visit to a 'slum' would have been sanitised for her benefit.

Next road. Kara grabs the shipping container and reattaches it to Bleez's ship, then grabs hold of the ship and accelerates away. The ship can't go as fast as Kara can inside an atmosphere, but between the shields, inertial dampeners and Nth metal armour it can handle her acceleration. I transition back to the nearest main road and start transmuting again. Level the ground, add stones and compact, add tarmac, add cat's-eyes and road markings and power lines and drainage channels and get moving because India is large.

India isn't called a subcontinent for no reason, after all. A billion people take up a lot of land. In this case, a region as large as most of Europe.

Ring, open channel to Bleez.

Compliance.

"Illustres to Bleez. Something on your mind?"

This is probably quite the eye-opening trip for her. Wonder if she'll have suggestions for her bosses when she goes home? Ones that might lead to what history books would call an occupation...

"We don't have places like this on Havania. Or on Thanagar."

"I wouldn't expect you to. I did say that our technology level was widely variable."

There's variable, and then there's 'people living in pre-agricultural tribes'.

"I thought it was damage from one of the invasions."

"The details are, but the way of life? No, that was there before. Advanced technology hasn't tricked down to everywhere in our society in the way that it has in places like Thanagar."

And since it's often expensive... Well, cheap local knock-offs are a thing for a reason.

"That's not quite it. Our slaves don't exactly have the latest grav-cars, but they do have better farming machinery and… Organisation than this."

"How do you mean?"

I wouldn't go dropping the word 'slaves' just about anywhere on Earth...

"Havania was meant to be a garden. All our farms are laid out in grids, with irrigation canals and roads and everything in place. In places the thanagarians don't have to look unless they're the overseer or if they really want to. I don't know what it looked like before we geoscaped it, but now there's basically nothing that isn't set out just the way we like it. Here it's like they just sort of started farming wherever they were."

Because that's more or less how it worked. Land ownership is a little iffier this far from the centres of power.

"Probably."

"And not being able to get power for tools. I though you had bleed torsion generators?"

Sadly, Earth is not that advanced that things like that are commonplace, even before Anti-Life.

"I do, and about a dozen or so genius-in-their-fields worldwide could probably make more, but that's not enough to have one for every appliance."

"So, one for each village?"

...Optimistic, isn't she? The joy of not seeing the really cruel side of Humanity yet.

"No. Far too many villages. Also, we don't have good enough batteries to really take advantage of it even if we had enough. Even the really advanced places would rather plug right into a power source than use storage."

I snort.

Such is the nature of uneven technological development. And exacerbated by arrogant attitudes of one people or another coming in and going 'wow, look at these savages' and then writing history books claiming how much better they are...

"Shorter structures are more stable. Lower centre of gravity. We're having to deliberately reduce the 'tech level' of our civilisation to preserve it. While… At the same time advancing it in some areas. I think that future historians are going to have some very harsh things to say about us, the smug gits."

"Doesn't technology make everything easier?"

Hey, as long as you aren't releasing new media with the same name as old media...

Oh, wait.

"Yes, but it comes with increasingly complex logistical and educational requirements. Our logistics are badly broken and will continue to be for at least a year, and we lost a lot of people with specialist knowledge. Imagine… Imagine what would happen to the Thanagarian Empire if… Half the people who knew anything about making or working with Nth metal died, that's the equivalent. You'd have to train loads more people, and the people who had the knowledge would have to focus on training and not other projects. Just about every sector of the Empire's economy would suffer, and the Empire's government would have to think seriously about using non-Nth metal based technology to keep things going."

Which would burn something fierce, given how proud they are of that Nth Metal tech.

"Yeah, I… I get it. Ah… Did your oracle have some kind of vision about that?"

"Ah, yes, but the Seven Devils would have to manifest in the material universe first. They still know more about the stuff than anyone, and could probably subvert technology based on it."

Don't jinx it, OL. The will sooner or later, but poking fate like that will just push up their schedule.

"So is this-? It? You just have to accept your people living like their ancient ancestors?"

"No. This isn't permanent, we will rebuild, it's just the best we can do for now."

On the upside, it gives the world a chance to get onto a more even footing technology-wise.

Bit of an exposition bomb, but such is the nature of an update concerning an area little seen otherwise. Interesting that the Indian peoples took the Anti-Life so oddly compared to others. But, as OL said, they will rebuild, and make it all better than it was. And meanwhile, I wonder how Jarhanpur made out during the crisis. Likely Rama Khan yanked the place away from the material plane for the duration...

Darko · Jun 13, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
11th April 2013
14:13 GMT +5:30

Zoat, the date is missing over the link for the chapter.

Mr Zoat · Jun 13, 2024

Chojin Patriarch said:
There's a good reason many rekt videos often feature Indians. Especially ones featuring trains, because of a dumb meme. Still, they're a vast and varied people, with so many ethnic groups, any belief is correct just by density of faith.

Just don't watch the Indian Food Cart videos.

And this time, you're not doing it in the name of profit. So overall win there.

Not really. If he were making money he'd be motivated to stay. As it is, he'll wander off when he loses interest.

What's the bet there'll be a lot of complaining at first, but once their stomachs start grumbling, they'll roll up sleeves and get on with it?

Pretty low. These are urban working class Indians. They're not exactly workshy. 'The hours are just as long and the work is just as hard, but the smell is much better'.

Such is the nature of uneven technological development. And exacerbated by arrogant attitudes of one people or another coming in and going 'wow, look at these savages' and then writing history books claiming how much better they are...

Hey, as long as you aren't releasing new media with the same name as old media... Oh, wait.

WHY IS IT CALLED XBOX ONE?!

Darko said:
Zoat, the date is missing over the link for the chapter.

Thank you, corrected.

KharnTheBrotrayer · Jun 13, 2024

Mr Zoat said:

You posted the picture so I'll ask, what did you think of these films? Beyond that the natives gonna cop some space napalm?

Mr Zoat · Jun 13, 2024

KharnTheBrotrayer said:
You posted the picture so I'll ask, what did you think of these films? Beyond that the natives gonna cop some space napalm?

I haven't watched the second one, so I can't really comment on it.

In the first one, they failed to show the state of Earth, human civilisation in general or what unobtanium was for. This is sort of important as the more desperate the need, the more justified their actions look. The main character failed to do his job of establishing a trading relationship with the natives... Which was to be expected, as he was 1) not even slightly trained to do that 2) walking for the first time in years and 3) having hair sex with the alien princess, but it does rather undermine the effort to demonise the humans when, no, they did try diplomacy, their diplomat just sucked. I really don't know why they didn't just level the place from orbit once it became apparent that the locals were going to fight: it was going to look bad in their reports either way, so why risk their people?

1484e01a888e1db1e86d275dc9b0e422f9f84e5b.gifv

Darko · Jun 13, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
. I really don't know why they didn't just level the place from orbit once it became apparent that the locals were going to fight: it was going to look bad in their reports either way, so why risk their people

My guess is that blowing up a resource you want to have in your possession is a bad idea, so that's why they'd send soldiers down instead of bombs.

And on a more darker possibility, Earth is apparently resource starved, so if some of their soldiers die then they have fewer mouths to feed.

Smartkittykhan · Jun 13, 2024

It IS mentioned that the area the Big Magic Tree was in had some kind of effect that scrambled eletronics. Perhaps orbital scanners couldn't locate it?

Mr Zoat · Jun 13, 2024

Darko said:
My guess is that blowing up a resource you want to have in your possession is a bad idea, so that's why they'd send soldiers down instead of bombs.

They didn't establish unobtanium as somethinig that could be blown up. And even if it could, so what? They lose one high value site and now have no opposition, freeing them to mine everywhere else.

And on a more darker possibility, Earth is apparently resource starved, so if some of their soldiers die then they have fewer mouths to feed.

They sent them to another star system in a faster than light starship. If food was an issue it would be easier to build farms on Pandora. If resources are such an issue, there's asteroids, Mars, and a whole bunch of moons in the Sol system, or the entire rest of the universe, because they've got faster-than-light travel.

Smartkittykhan said:
It IS mentioned that the area the Big Magic Tree was in had some kind of effect that scrambled eletronics. Perhaps orbital scanners couldn't locate it?

It's a big tree. It doesn't move. Modern optical systems could detect it, and if they could then it still doesn't matter because they know where it is.

Chaoswind · Jun 13, 2024

The smurfs in space is a terrible movie in all the non visually related metrics and I am pissed it got to trademark Avatar despite being far too late to the party (and I know what you are doing by naming the sequel the way of water, what a pityful hack you are).

The plot is shit, the logic is shit and the message is shit, the only thing it had going was impressive 3D for it's time and like it happens with video games once the impressive visuals are stripped away by the march of time you are left with something less than mediocre.

Smartkittykhan · Jun 13, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
It's a big tree. It doesn't move. Modern optical systems could detect it, and if they could then it still doesn't matter because they know where it is.

But then they don't get to use their mech suits.

Ardy · Jun 13, 2024

Smartkittykhan said:
But then they don't get to use their mech suits.

Something something military industrial complex

Suddenly it all makes sense

Mr Zoat · Jun 13, 2024

Smartkittykhan said:
But then they don't get to use their mech suits.

If they can make mech suits then they're clearly not short of resources.

Ina_Meishou · Jun 13, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
They sent them to another star system in a faster than light starship.

Sublight. The humans in Avatar use a chain of like a dozen sublight ships operating at staggered intervals. The trip to pandora takes half a decade.

Also, the ships don't have guns on them, or at least they didn't as of the first film. They're cargo pods with a M/AM engine strapped on, not warships. Which explains the lack of ortillery as an immediate response.

Vaermina · Jun 13, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
They didn't establish unobtanium as somethinig that could be blown up. And even if it could, so what? They lose one high value site and now have no opposition, freeing them to mine everywhere else.

Why would they have to establish that a physical material could be blown up?

Like, of all the logic failures to complain about in concerns to the Avatar movie, and there are a bunch of them, that just isn't one.

Sockmonkey · Jun 13, 2024

Ina_Meishou said:
Sublight. The humans in Avatar use a chain of like a dozen sublight ships operating at staggered intervals. The trip to pandora takes half a decade.

Also, the ships don't have guns on them, or at least they didn't as of the first film. They're cargo pods with a M/AM engine strapped on, not warships. Which explains the lack of ortillery as an immediate response.

If you have orbital supremacy, you can just drop rocks. Interstellar capability means KT extinction events are no problem to pull off.

Ina_Meishou · Jun 13, 2024

Sockmonkey said:
If you have orbital supremacy, you can just drop rocks. Interstellar capability means KT extinction events are no problem to pull off.

In theory, yes.

In practice, it's a hell of a lot harder than your post implies.

Yes you can go boost out to the nearest asteroid, strap a rocket on it, do a bunch of precise calculations, fill it up with reaction mass, and set it on an orbit that will intersect with Pandora...in a few years...if your math is good.

Congrats, you've just used a bunch of fuel that was supposed to get your ass (and the many tons of payload) back to earth. And whatever supplied the rocket you strapped on the rock is now down an incredibly expensive engine that you can't replace at the ass end of your five year supply chain. Oh, and you'd better hope your targeting calculations are absolutely spot on. And that nothing goes wrong with any of the machinery, and that the fasteners holding that rocket on the rock don't break. And that the rock doesn't break up under the strain. And etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

The whole 'hur dur I'm in a space ship ortilery go brrr' meme is fun, and in some settings it's even accurate. But it genuinely is more complicated than that in settings that don't fudge the details of orbital mechanics and rocketry.

Chaoswind · Jun 13, 2024

Ina_Meishou said:
Sublight. The humans in Avatar use a chain of like a dozen sublight ships operating at staggered intervals. The trip to pandora takes half a decade.

Also, the ships don't have guns on them, or at least they didn't as of the first film. They're cargo pods with a M/AM engine strapped on, not warships. Which explains the lack of ortillery as an immediate response.

Ina_Meishou said:
In theory, yes.

In practice, it's a hell of a lot harder than your post implies.

Yes you can go boost out to the nearest asteroid, strap a rocket on it, do a bunch of precise calculations, fill it up with reaction mass, and set it on an orbit that will intersect with Pandora...in a few years...if your math is good.

Congrats, you've just used a bunch of fuel that was supposed to get your ass (and the many tons of payload) back to earth. And whatever supplied the rocket you strapped on the rock is now down an incredibly expensive engine that you can't replace at the ass end of your five year supply chain. Oh, and you'd better hope your targeting calculations are absolutely spot on. And that nothing goes wrong with any of the machinery, and that the fasteners holding that rocket on the rock don't break. And that the rock doesn't break up under the strain. And etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

The whole 'hur dur I'm in a space ship ortilery go brrr' meme is fun, and in some settings it's even accurate. But it genuinely is more complicated than that in settings that don't fudge the details of orbital mechanics and rocketry.

This is absolute nonsense, they could literally drop one of the MANY replacement trucks or other massive industrial grade equipment out of the cargo bay and erase everything a couple miles around that tree. Because those cargo ships don't come from Sol empty. Don't defend the Space Smurfs, its just a stupid movie, with a retarded premise and nice visuals. When the first movie came out I was alone in my criticism, every year since then more people get over the surface visuals. The movie on its own its less than mediocre slob, the first resident evil movie adaptation is a far superior movie than this crap.

Ina_Meishou · Jun 13, 2024

Chaoswind said:
This is absolute nonsense, they could literally drop one of the MANY replacement trucks or other massive industrial grade equipment out of the cargo bay and erase everything a couple miles around that tree. Because those cargo ships don't come from Sol empty. Don't defend the Space Smurfs, its just a stupid movie, with a retarded premise and nice visuals. When the first movie came out I was alone in my criticism, every year since then more people get over the surface visuals. The movie on its own its less than mediocre slob, the first resident evil movie adaptation is a far superior movie than this crap.

Ugh, I can't even say 'goddamn Hollywood' since I don't think enough movies have ever actually used orbital mechanics or impact events at all to be the cause of this nonsense.

Alright, let's take this 'one of the MANY replacement trucks' suggestion and actually follow it through. (And for the sake of being generous let's ignore that those trucks, along with all the other cargo on the ISV were probably all offloaded back when the ISV first arrived, because fucking duh, that's the entire goddamn point of hauling all that mass across interstellar distances. Let's also pre-emptively offer a reminder that no, orbital dropping the apparently vitally needed special metal they've since loaded on isn't reasonable either. The entire operation is to get that shit back to earth.)

But fine, for the sake of argument let's drop something, hell let's drop a whole damn fully loaded cargo container. 36 tons of inert mass dropping in at terminal velocity has to just kill everything right?

Well...no actually. Let me guess, "But the tunguska event!" or some variant? Yeah no. A 36 ton cargo container at terminal velocity is multiple orders of magnitude less massive than that, and traveling multiple orders of magnitude slower, because terminal velocity is nothing compared to the orbital velocities involved in real world impact events.

You can plug the numbers into any of a dozen programs designed to calculate impact events. Pick one, the results don't really change. Our hypothetical cargo pod is going to hit about as hard as a regular bomb, at best.

You're not erasing everything in a couple miles of that tree, anyone a kilometer away is barely going to hear the impact, they probably won't feel it. There won't be any fireball or lightshow either, the speed is too low to create that effect.

And guess what? You almost certainly didn't even hit the fucking target anyway.

See, our cargo container (or our truck for that matter) isn't a uniform object. And it certainly wasn't designed to self stabilize. Which means when it falls into the atmosphere, it's going to tumble. That tumbling will result in a constantly changing frontal area and constantly shifting set of chaotic changes to it's air resistance. Realistically, this will actually mean that it's going to hit with even less force than the calculators will show, because all those calculations are based on ideal bodies, perfect in shape and consistent in profile. Our hypothetical cargo container full of the most valuable substance in history has just been fucking wasted blasting a small crater in a random chunk of uninhabited forest.

So very good, you've effectively performed the most expensive fucking wiff in history. That'll show the smurfs. Aren't you glad you didn't do something stupid like use the actual weapons systems you brought along and shoot them?

If you don't like the film, that's fine. I'm not a particular fan of it either. I find it pretty enough, but it's largely incoherent in many ways.

But the humans being smart enough to actually understand orbital mechanics and kinetic impacts isn't one of it's flaws. It's an example of bitter anti-fans being willfully stupid out of spite.

Chaoswind · Jun 13, 2024

Ina_Meishou said:
Ugh, I can't even say 'goddamn Hollywood' since I don't think enough movies have ever actually used orbital mechanics or impact events at all to be the cause of this nonsense.

Alright, let's take this 'one of the MANY replacement trucks' suggestion and actually follow it through. (And for the sake of being generous let's ignore that those trucks, along with all the other cargo on the ISV were probably all offloaded back when the ISV first arrived, because fucking duh, that's the entire goddamn point of hauling all that mass across interstellar distances. Let's also pre-emptively offer a reminder that no, orbital dropping the apparently vitally needed special metal they've since loaded on isn't reasonable either. The entire operation is to get that shit back to earth.)

But fine, for the sake of argument let's drop something, hell let's drop a whole damn fully loaded cargo container. 36 tons of inert mass dropping in at terminal velocity has to just kill everything right?

Well...no actually. Let me guess, "But the tunguska event!" or some variant? Yeah no. A 36 ton cargo container at terminal velocity is multiple orders of magnitude less massive than that, and traveling multiple orders of magnitude slower, because terminal velocity is nothing compared to the orbital velocities involved in real world impact events.

You can plug the numbers into any of a dozen programs designed to calculate impact events. Pick one, the results don't really change. Our hypothetical cargo pod is going to hit about as hard as a regular bomb, at best.

You're not erasing everything in a couple miles of that tree, anyone a kilometer away is barely going to hear the impact, they probably won't feel it. There won't be any fireball or lightshow either, the speed is too low to create that effect.

And guess what? You almost certainly didn't even hit the fucking target anyway.

See, our cargo container (or our truck for that matter) isn't a uniform object. And it certainly wasn't designed to self stabilize. Which means when it falls into the atmosphere, it's going to tumble. That tumbling will result in a constantly changing frontal area and constantly shifting set of chaotic changes to it's air resistance. Realistically, this will actually mean that it's going to hit with even less force than the calculators will show, because all those calculations are based on ideal bodies, perfect in shape and consistent in profile. Our hypothetical cargo container full of the most valuable substance in history has just been fucking wasted blasting a small crater in a random chunk of uninhabited forest.

So very good, you've effectively performed the most expensive fucking wiff in history. That'll show the smurfs. Aren't you glad you didn't do something stupid like use the actual weapons systems you brought along and shoot them?

If you don't like the film, that's fine. I'm not a particular fan of it either. I find it pretty enough, but it's largely incoherent in many ways.

But the humans being smart enough to actually understand orbital mechanics and kinetic impacts isn't one of it's flaws. It's an example of bitter anti-fans being willfully stupid out of spite.

You are too many years too late to VS debate this shit.

Fact 1:
The cargo ships that come to pick up the macbullshit mined from Pandora come with replacement mining, industrial equipment, weapons and personnel. Because as is established in the movie and the tie in expanded universe Pandora is very hostile to the operations of the humans, people go missing, vehicles get damaged, weapons are used, etc. Thus all the replacement shit.

Fact 2: The cargo ships approach Pandora IE the alpha centauri A at literal near relativistic speeds, all they have to do is approach Pandora at a fraction of those speeds, open a cargo bay in the direction of Pandora and unsecure some of the industrial equipment, slow down the ship and let physics do the rest. Industrial equipment isn't going down at terminal velocity, its going to go down and hit the tree at the most optimal velocity to maximize the impact energy without detonating in atmosphere and that energy will be enough to erase the tree and everything around it for MILES.

Fact 3: The humans are literally using anti-matter as fuel for their fucking ships, they can literally sacrifice the fuel of one of them and make a country sized crater and cause an extinction event on the moon, all it would take its the return fuel of one of their ships.

The smurfs only survive because James Cameron is a moron that got high on his own farts, the world building on his setting destroys everything his less than mediocre movie wishes to say and its premise, its TRASH.

Ina_Meishou · Jun 14, 2024

Chaoswind said:
You are too many years too late to VS debate this shit.

Which is why you even brought up the premise at this juncture, I'm sure.

Right, so now the goalposts have been moved, let's address the new ones. Whee...

Ok, so now you've moved from claiming the smart play was to radio up to orbit and have the ship there drop something to claiming that the obvious solution is to send a transmission (at light speed, no ansible) calculated to reach one of the other ISVs while it's still in the acceleration phase... several years after the signal is sent. And order that ship to perform an operation none of it's crew are trained for, detatching cargo while under full burn in the shadow of an active M/AM torch, and somehow make sure that said cargo hits a target as tiny as a planet with no further maneuvering thrust...two additional years in the future from them getting the order to do so. And meanwhile the humans on Pandora just...sit tight and do nothing I guess? And pray that the relativistic cargo pod doesn't land on them instead of the smurfs? (It' actually more likely to just sail past the planet entirely, because the planet, and indeed the entire solar system, is moving and the ISV is on a course that will intersect with the Alpha Centauri system after a full decelleration burn phase.) Sure Jan. That's such a simple suggestion...for a given (and uncharitable) definition of simple.

Ah, but then we have the, uh, "brilliant" idea to fucking MacGyver an antimatter warhead. Which I suppose does have the advantage that it would indeed have sufficient destructive yield unlike the 'simply drop a truck from orbit' foolishness.

But then...there are few words in the english language to describe how bad an idea any suggestion that involves jerry-rigging anything involving antimatter is.

And again of course, that antimatter is the fuel that is supposed to be powering the ship hauling the unobtanium back to earth, where it is apparently absolutely vital for...whatever bullshit nebulous reason Cammeron concocted that probably makes about as much sense as these ridiculous suggestions on how 'easily' the humans should have wiped out the smurfs. Sure, you wouldn't need all the antimatter to vaporize the Home Tree and surrounding areas. But for an operation like this, grams matter, the ISV fuel tank is almost assuredly not designed to have a lot of extra. It probably isn't designed to be opened up and emptied mid mission either.

I'm not sure why you keep re-iterating that you dislike the film though. It's utterly irrelevant to how much sense (or lack therof) your suggested 'easy solutions' are. And I've already pointed out that I don't particularly like it either.

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