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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

That wouldn't make sense if he had been dolling
I think that should be 'doling' (as in to 'dole out', rather than anything to do with dolls :) )

I think that they're doing a good job of narrowing-down who's responsible. Here's hoping it isn't a Danner-enhanced cloned Hitler in a Wendigo suit. :)
 
Half is a very... Interesting interpretation of the sentiments of the readership...
I really don't think that Maxx Crowley was being literal about it, he's simply justifiably freaked out at the amount of sympathy a character who holds a really horrifying belief system is getting (sure, she hasn't been able to practice the nastier parts, but she didn't see anything wrong with them, either), and probably didn't want to count up the specific percentage of people making statements that look supportive.

Personally, I would be happier if she'd never shown up, especially if he's doing it to try to make the pony episodes look less annoying. It doesn't make them less annoying or offensive than they would be otherwise, they're just annoying and offensive in a different way. In fact, I think it's making them look worse, because I'm more annoyed at Zoat than I otherwise would be.

Maxx, I suggest just unsubscribing from the thread and checking the index to see when the horror is over before you resubscribe. It's what I'm going to do when the pony episodes start. I'm seriously considering doing it before the pony episodes start, because I'm not sure how much I care what happens in this episode, and the comments are getting pretty annoying.
 
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Maxx, I suggest just unsubscribing from the thread a checking the index to see when the horror is over before you resubscribe. It's what I'm going to do when the pony episodes start. I'm seriously considering doing it before the pony episodes start, because I'm not sure how much I care what happens in this episode, and the comments are getting pretty annoying
I have done the same before, when the thread got too toxic and the updates less interesting . It also helped that I got caught up in one sitting.

If you think it would help, maybe try reading weekly.
 
including having a literal harem while among the Brazilian tribe
No. While he might well not have been celibate, for the most part the Children of Dawn were his children in the metaphorical sense. No harem.
A cursory search of the archive doesn't seem to indicate that she took part in operations against dissidents or freedom fighters, let alone kill them, though there was a reference to the existence of "terrorists" bringing about weapons to bear on buldings.

While I acknowledge that she could have taken part in operations against such people or killed people who did not need or deserve to die, I don't think it is sufficient evidence to indicate that she did. I could very well have missed something though.
'Freedom fighters'.
It should be "And we don't expect you to."
I think that should be 'doling' (as in to 'dole out', rather than anything to do with dolls :) )
Thank you, corrected.
I think that they're doing a good job of narrowing-down who's responsible. Here's hoping it isn't a Danner-enhanced cloned Hitler in a Wendigo suit. :)
Wolf Krieger would never tolerate his God-Fuhrer being Canadian.
 
"No. Danner blood clots differently. Once I worked out how that bloke cut his hand there was some blood that didn't fit, so I took a closer look."
I'm wondering if the blood that DID fit was compared to that other blood. If the enhancile is that worker and deliberately got himself cut again as a way to explain why his blood was there.
 
I believe she referenced operations against freedom fighters/dissidents at one point, so she's probably killed a few people who didn't need or deserve to die. She's also mentioned as being willing to perform a genocide despite her father-figure actively stating that he wasn't happy about the previous ones, though that may be a case of her not really appreciating the fuck-uppedness of what she'd be doing.

The three main reasons I think it's still worth converting her are:
A) it seems pretty easy seeing as she was showing cracks as soon as she woke up
B) converting someone who is arguably the pinnacle of their ideology- smarter, stronger, blonder- is just about the biggest middle finger to the Nazi's you're going to find
C) Paul's pulled the trick where he's all polite and reasonable right up until he annihilates a fucker enough times to make me certain that he's had the order to create a Gold K burst queued up in the back of his mind the entire time.
D) Paul isn't about to do something that will make it more likely the Nazis with Kryptonian tech will try to attack Earth-16. That's the sort of thing which will result in significant casualties on the good guys' side.
 
Nazis are always a hotbutton for everyone, but boiling things down to the very basics, I think most of us could agree that being brainwashed into what is basically an evil cult isn't, in-and-of-itself, an irredeemably immoral action.

So long as you don't, whilst a member of said cult, go around murdering people, then morally you're probably in the clear. You're just... brainwashed into believing something that isn't true.

By all accounts in story, Overgirl doesn't actually have innocent blood on her hands, if only because all the murdering was pretty much over with by the time she was grown up and brainwashed enough to take part.

Of course, people don't want to feel sympathy for a nazi, so they're making stuff up in their heads about how she must have gone around killing people, even though Paul, and by extension Mr Zoat, have explicitly said that she hasn't.
Not this version of her, anyway.
 
Also, unless they, like, deliberately pick a fight with Earth 10 . . . I don't really see one of the cliche and, frankly, stupid scenarios of multiversal invasions happening.

They already have an entire goddamn universe to expand into. What the fuck is even the point of attacking alternate Earths when you can be secure in your power over the Earth you already own?

If you have to do that shit, wait until you've got an interstellar empire going so that you have the manpower and industry of multiple worlds fueling your war machine. Then you can worry about finding another Earth that isn't as far along and picking a fight when you have, like, a trillion motherfuckers to throw at their billions.

Or maybe they figure out time fuckery and how to clone Overman, and send copies of the pod and baby into the Nazi Germany's of other Earths. Plus whatever new bullshit they might have picked up along the way.

Crisis on Infinite Nazi Earths.
 
Lucky we're on QQ. This is getting silly.

It got silly the moment someone started talking about milking dryads for maple syrup. Fun, yes, but also very silly.

It's also interesting seeing people being more comfortable with Grayven even though he's a total asshole but one who maintains a fairly human view of morals than Paul who by and large is a good person but with a view of morals that doesn't perfectly match the typical human one

To be perfectly fair, Grayven is basically a good person in that his goals line up with what most people would consider the greater good. "Asshole" and "good person" are not mutually exclusive. It's quite possible - maybe even common - to be a complete ass to people and still be working for the greater good. It's also possible and very common to be polite and genial and even apparently kind to people around you but still be a completely evil SOB. See most politicians for an example of that one.

Man, it's kind of funny to me that people find My Little Pony more objectionable than the Nazi stuff. So much so that they plan to just ignore the thread until Grayven's adventures in Equestria are over.

Meh, they don't enjoy Grayven and they're not excited about him visiting MLP land. They may dislike the Nazi stuff so much that they start frothing at the mouth over it (not naming any names, but at least one person here has had that sort of reaction) but they at least enjoy the story. They do not, however, enjoy Grayvan's antics.

And me? I not only enjoy Grayvan, but I've been thoroughly enjoying that 12 Steps to Omnipotence story that Zoat linked last week (or the week before maybe?). It's a lot like Grayven only moreso (I even think at the point of the story I'm at Hyperion would be an even match to Grayven, and he's only going to get more powerful if his plans play out). I dunno, maybe I just like dickish, godlike anti-heroes.
 
I, for one, am actually looking forward to the pony episodes. They'll probably be quite interesting. :)

I like the vast majority of Zoat's writing, it's very rare that he does something that annoys me.

You're just... brainwashed into believing something that isn't true.
That said, a warning: One important trap to avoid falling into is "X is a belief of evil group Y who we know have false beliefs A, B and C. Therefore X is false.".
Not all of the Nazis/Hitler's beliefs will be incorrect and immoral (the classic example is veganism).
Similarly, not all brainwashing is to instill incorrect beliefs. The classic example here is belief in democracy that's drilled into children at school.
 
I, for one, am actually looking forward to the pony episodes. They'll probably be quite interesting. :)

I like the vast majority of Zoat's writing, it's very rare that he does something that annoys me.


That said, a warning: One important trap to avoid falling into is "X is a belief of evil group Y who we know have false beliefs A, B and C. Therefore X is false.".
Not all of the Nazis/Hitler's beliefs will be incorrect and immoral (the classic example is veganism).
Similarly, not all brainwashing is to instill incorrect beliefs. The classic example here is belief in democracy that's drilled into children at school.
Which is a problem - democracy might be the best type of government, but there's a lot of things wrong with America's democracy and there is space to improve.
 
If OL had just capped her when she got here, he's a monster.
Of course he would be. "Shoot first, ask questions later" is the hallmark of bad judgment.

If she snaps and kills a few people (She wont.) then at least he "Gave her a chance." I mean, fuck the people she killed right? The people that could have been saved.
She won't, but not for some fourth-wall reason. She won't because she's not mentally unstable. She's not going to "snap". She's basically a soldier, and if ordered she'll kill someone without losing any sleep over it, but she's not a crazed lunatic that's a hair trigger away from killing someone on a whim.

He IS liable for her actions, though, as he has taken responsibility for her supervision and rehabilitation. And as we see, he actually IS taking that responsibility seriously.

Red sunlight cell at the least.
This is reasonable -- keep a potential threat contained for evaluation. It's nothing permanent, easily rectified in either direction if it turns out you were wrong.

Kryptonite on-hand is also a good plan. And he has that.

Brainwashing can be extremely confusing sometimes. Technically OL is trying to brainwash Overgirl into adopting a way of life that goes against everything she was taught to believe in.
Brainwashing requires "systematic and forceful means." Persuasion isn't brainwashing. And brainwashing, like any other form of indoctrination, is intended to result in someone who uncritically accepts dogma as truth without reflection or introspection. OL is doing very much the opposite -- he's trying to induce the reflection and introspection that Overgirl's upbringing never let her have, in order to let her come to a different conclusion on her own.
 
I, for one, am actually looking forward to the pony episodes. They'll probably be quite interesting. :)

I like the vast majority of Zoat's writing, it's very rare that he does something that annoys me.


That said, a warning: One important trap to avoid falling into is "X is a belief of evil group Y who we know have false beliefs A, B and C. Therefore X is false.".
Not all of the Nazis/Hitler's beliefs will be incorrect and immoral (the classic example is veganism).
Similarly, not all brainwashing is to instill incorrect beliefs. The classic example here is belief in democracy that's drilled into children at school.

I mean, what people talk about when they talk about nazism is the actual nazism.
Nobody mentions hitler being a vegan because that's really not the important part here. We're not doing the 'Hitler ate sugar' fallacy here. We're talking about someone being brainwashed into believing about the uebermensch and the untermensch, about how Joos are behind everything, and all the other bullshit that people actually mean when they talk about the evils of nazism.
Not to say that veganism isn't also wrong and evil, because you're wrong and it totally is.
 
No. While he might well not have been celibate, for the most part the Children of Dawn were his children in the metaphorical sense. No harem.

You are seeing a contradiction where there is none.

He had a harem. He had no children whatsoever off of said harem. So he settled for his metaphorical Sons of Dawn.

Hugo was apparently pretty infertile.

It was a plot point.

His excuse for never being there for Iron Monroe was that it never occurred to him that he could get Anna pregnant. If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt that is.

Although considering he planned on his Mighty Whitey campaign to end with his Sons of Dawn waging a genocidal campaign of world conquest that would kill more people than the Nazis of Earth-10, I'm not sure how many people will feel the need to give him the benefit of that doubt.

Although considering you're having Fire be something of a fan, either you're really sanitized the man from the comics version, or history has seriously whitewashed the scumbag.
 
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This is a diffrent universe, maybe he doesn't have his main universe counterparts more negative traits, and maybe he didn't have a harem in this universe because he was uncomfortable with the idea or just wasn't interested.
 
You are seeing a contradiction where there is none.

He had a harem. He had no children whatsoever off of said harem. So he settled for his metaphorical Sons of Dawn.

Hugo was apparently pretty infertile.

It was a plot point.

His excuse for never being there for Iron Monroe was that it never occurred to him that he could get Anna pregnant. If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt that is.

Although considering he planned on his Mighty Whitey campaign to end with his Sons of Dawn waging a genocidal campaign of world conquest that would kill more people than the Nazis of Earth-10, I'm not sure how many people will feel the need to give him the benefit of that doubt.

Although considering you're having Fire be something of a fan, either you're really sanitized the man from the comics version, or history has seriously whitewashed the scumbag.
I don't know where you're getting this harem thing from? There was no harem. None.
 
I've got to be honest, Mr Zoat I'm shocked at how casual OL has apparently been about knowing that Lex has had access to the Danner Formula for a long time now between the fact that he usually pushes for human enhancement pretty heavily and would probably try and make it publicly available asap and the fact that it means that any random Light thug could be Danner enhanced and he'd probably push a lot harder for people like Batman to accept the treatment as a result
 
I don't know where you're getting this harem thing from? There was no harem. None.

The same place I got his being an infertile genocidal lunatic from, from actually reading the Young All-Stars storyline which included him and the Sons of Dawn.

This is a diffrent universe, maybe he doesn't have his main universe counterparts more negative traits, and maybe he didn't have a harem in this universe because he was uncomfortable with the idea or just wasn't interested.

If you interpreted "Although considering you're having Fire be something of a fan, either you're really sanitized the man from the comics version, or history has seriously whitewashed the scumbag" in anyway but my pointing out that there is already evidence from the story that implies Zoat changed Hugo's character, you interpreted it incorrectly.

While it's not impossible that Zoat has Fire have nostalgia filter for a genocidal lunatic that would have buried her entire family under a mountain of corpses to build his Dannered utopia over, that seems highly unlikely.
 
I've got to be honest, Mr Zoat I'm shocked at how casual OL has apparently been about knowing that Lex has had access to the Danner Formula for a long time now between the fact that he usually pushes for human enhancement pretty heavily and would probably try and make it publicly available asap and the fact that it means that any random Light thug could be Danner enhanced and he'd probably push a lot harder for people like Batman to accept the treatment as a result
I believe he isn't too worked up about it because unless you have a power ring and can convert a person's cells using the Danner formula, you're limited to the usual method of operation of the formula, i.e injecting a pregnant mother with the formula. Since Paul is hardly going to be volunteering to convert Light members using the Danner formula that means that he's got 16 years or so until Danner-enhanced Light operatives become a problem.
 
I believe he isn't too worked up about it because unless you have a power ring and can convert a person's cells using the Danner formula, you're limited to the usual method of operation of the formula, i.e injecting a pregnant mother with the formula. Since Paul is hardly going to be volunteering to convert Light members using the Danner formula that means that he's got 16 years or so until Danner-enhanced Light operatives become a problem.

Except that Lex has scientists working for him capable of cloning full adults in a matter of months, Paul even informed him that cloning humans infused with the Danner formula would have been more effective than cloning Superman.
 
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Also, unless they, like, deliberately pick a fight with Earth 10 . . . I don't really see one of the cliche and, frankly, stupid scenarios of multiversal invasions happening.
There are several points in favor of it.

Alternate Earths, almost certain to be habitable, then most of space isn't.
Travel time is cut down to almost nothing compared to space travel.
That makes all sorts of logistics much easier compared to managing a conventional space empire.
Also easier to defend from conventional spaced based non dimensional empires.

Also, Earth is inhabited by humans, and not alien species. No need to deal with special accommodations for different body types or mindsets. What works on one planet can be implemented on another planet easily, since they are basically the same planet with the same native species.
Also, easier to keep the empire cohesive.
 
I believe he isn't too worked up about it because unless you have a power ring and can convert a person's cells using the Danner formula, you're limited to the usual method of operation of the formula, i.e injecting a pregnant mother with the formula. Since Paul is hardly going to be volunteering to convert Light members using the Danner formula that means that he's got 16 years or so until Danner-enhanced Light operatives become a problem.
Given that earth has technology that shits all over constructs (The crumbler tech) and has several magical applications that thwart it, I really would not be surprised if Lex couldn't whip up someway to induce Danner enhancement in full grown adults.

I mean, hell, Even with a power ring, OL mostly uses it to create various earth weapons (Railguns and various Earth forms of ammunition, crumbler tech, Captain Cold Cold-guns and the like)
 

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