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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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fictionfan said:
There are wars happening all over the world that they don't get involved in.
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Yes but those are either A) Civil wars which the League has no right to interfere with, B) Between countries that aren't members of the UN so the League can't operate there or C) Complicated enough that the UN wouldn't want them to involve themselves nor would there necessarily be a good and bad side

None of those apply to this situation
 
Lex probably didn't know about several hundred super strong people living in the jungle and only believed that a few like Dawn Warrior survived.

Fabiana may be that reporter that did a brief interview with OL and Kon when Canis showed up on Earth with Dreamer, Black Reign was the name of the episode.

Gaia would most likely not be interested in an intervention, plus depending if the stories are true in story and if she hasn't mellowed out like Hades has then Gaia was known to be a tough love sort of woman in the myths with her tough love including things like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and Typhon.
 
These guys seem surprisingly ignorant of what the rest of the world could do to them, especially since Dawn Warrior has been living with access to the Internet to look stuff up. I hope they just go with plan take over everything they want, and Hugo decides to go with it even though he knows it won't end well as a way of taking responsibility.

The League can't be contacted/respond quick enough, forcing OL to go to more expedient measures to subdue them. I also wouldn't be surprised if Lex uses this as a way to market some new weapons, like the OMAC drones, to prevent metahuman uprisings.
 
NeoDarklight said:
This segues nicely into something I'd like to point out- this would be an excellent time to plant Euanthe's seed, and have her explain exactly why going that far is a Bad Idea, Ecologically. If a plant-goddess tells you that the ecological changes you're trying to implement are stupid, then it's probably time to review your ecoterrorism plans.
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Would she say that though? If the ecological consequences are from men firebombing them or whatever then she's not likely to consider that.
 
Oh, I hope nothing like the Great Ghost Dance is on the horizon. That's one of the stupidest goddamn things about the Shadowrun setting.

And the idea that the League might not get involved is ridiculous. This isn't some quaint civil war anymore. This is a bunch of crazy people with superpowers making demands that would result in the destruction of multiple countries.

This is multinational supervillainy.

This is the exact kind of bullshit the League is supposed to slap down. Doing anything other than stopping them if it comes to violence would severely damage their UN Mandate.
 
This entire thing, even if it goes smoothly, can definetly get governments interested in making superhuman armies.
Even if the negotiations work leaders around the world will want to have their own armies of superhumans in case something like this happens again and doesn't resolve itself peacefully, so yeah Lex may have just gotten himself several profitable future contracts if he figured out that OMAC thing and how it works.
 
Ah, Zoat didn't use one of the fun little tidbits from that storyline.

Hugo's greatest weapon was....reverse psychology!

Knowing that telling his Sons of Dawn that he wanted them to conquer the world would get the response of "I don't wanna conquer the world! I hate you! I hate you! I hate you! You aren't my real dad!" Hugo instead told the kids "Oh no, you must stay in the plateau where you'll be safe with the dinosaurs, the modern world is way too scary for you to handle despite your godlike superpowers, because I said so!"

Which eventually ended up with the Sons of Dawn burying Hugo alive under rocks and then going out to conquer the world.

Unfortunately for the Sons, Professor Challenger's daughter Georgia accompanied Iron to the Lost World with a head cold, so it was already too late by that point.
 
jonasquinn said:
Yes but those are either A) Civil wars which the League has no right to interfere with, B) Between countries that aren't members of the UN so the League can't operate there or C) Complicated enough that the UN wouldn't want them to involve themselves nor would there necessarily be a good and bad side

None of those apply to this situation
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I would say that this particular situation fits many of the criteria that you are using as justifications for non-interference. To go by your list:

A) This is a civil war involving the rebellion of a faction that has been subject to a long history of oppression and has no feasible means of achieving progress peacefully.

B) The indigenous tribes are not recognized by the UN as a Nation, but they also don't operate within the existing structures of a recognized nation.

C) The situation is intensely complicated. Both sides have valid points and choosing to use direct force to support either side would cause a lot of controversy.

Supporting Brazil could easily be interpreted as declaring support for imperialism and the abuse of indigenous people. This seems like the type of thing that could greatly damage the reputation of the Justice League as it would greatly reinforce the idea that they are a Western organization that is more concerned with preserving the status quo than helping all humanity. It could also lead to defacto support Genocide as that seems like the only effective means to prevent the Danner tribes from being a recurring threat.

Supporting the Danner Tribes would make most of the nations of South America into enemies but it would also cause problems with all the nations that possess ethnic groups that seek independence or restitution for their abuse by the government and must now fear Justice League involvement (I am not going to go further into this as it involves divisive modern politics).

There is also no easy solution as the demands of the Danner Tribes will be unacceptable to the Brazil, while the Danner Tribe will refuse to accept a continuation of the status quo that keeps them oppressed and will eventually lead to the destruction of their people.

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My perspective is that stepping back from the situation in order to take on the role of neutral negotiators and advisers is the only sensible course of action. This seems like the only way for the Justice League to respond to the situation without jeopardizing their moral principles or committing to a course of action that could only lead to disaster.
 
Ct613hulu said:
I would say that this particular situation fits many of the criteria that you are using as justifications for non-interference. To go by your list:

A) This is a civil war involving the rebellion of a faction that has been subject to a long history of oppression and has no feasible means of achieving progress peacefully.

B) The indigenous tribes are not recognized by the UN as a Nation, but they also don't operate within the existing structures of a recognized nation.

C) The situation is intensely complicated. Both sides have valid points and choosing to use direct force to support either side would cause a lot of controversy.

Supporting Brazil could easily be interpreted as declaring support for imperialism and the abuse of indigenous people. This seems like the type of thing that could greatly damage the reputation of the Justice League as it would greatly reinforce the idea that they are a Western organization that is more concerned with preserving the status quo than helping all humanity. It could also lead to defacto support Genocide as that seems like the only effective means to prevent the Danner tribes from being a recurring threat.

Supporting the Danner Tribes would make most of the nations of South America into enemies but it would also cause problems with all the nations that possess ethnic groups that seek independence or restitution for their abuse by the government and must now fear Justice League involvement (I am not going to go further into this as it involves divisive modern politics).

There is also no easy solution as the demands of the Danner Tribes will be unacceptable to the Brazil, while the Danner Tribe will refuse to accept a continuation of the status quo that keeps them oppressed and will eventually lead to the destruction of their people.
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A) The second they involve other countries it isn't a civil war anymore

B) All the countries they'd be attacking are UN members and the tribes would be at best seen as a terrorist organisation

C) Yes morally there is no clear right side but the fallout of the tribes winning is infinitely worse than the alternative seeing as it would lead to millions of people forced from their homes and would cause multiple countries to cease to exist, causing the largest refugee and financial crisis in human history
 
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Massgamer said:
I just realized that Luthor had to expect this to happen at some point. I totally expect that once their demands are public he will personally support the tribes and their desire to take back homeland and wanting to restore Amazon, would be tons of PR for him.
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Of course while selling chemical weapons to the other side
 
jonasquinn said:
A) The second they involve other countries it isn't a civil war anymore

B) All the countries they'd be attacking are UN members and the tribes would be at best seen as a terrorist organisation

C) Yes morally there is no clear right side but the fallout of the tribes winning is infinitely worse than the alternative seeing as it would lead to millions of people forced from their homes and would cause multiple countries to cease to exist, causing the largest refugee and financial crisis in human history
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I think that you make a very good point regarding the consequences of the Tribes winning. My perspective is that the demands presented in the latest chapter were simply a starting point that would be easily negotiated down to something more reasonable. If the tribes are totally committed to their demands then the entire situation changes and this conflict becomes a more unequivocal conflict of good vs evil.
 
Ct613hulu said:
I think that you make a very good point regarding the consequences of the Tribes winning. My perspective is that the demands presented in the latest chapter were simply a starting point that would be easily negotiated down to something more reasonable. If the tribes are totally committed to their demands then the entire situation changes and this conflict becomes a more unequivocal conflict of good vs evil.
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Oh I agree, I'm just saying that if It did come to a war the League would have to fight against them
 
Shotiegun11 said:
So Squire is getting benched/disciplined after this, right?\
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If the team suddenly has a policy that you're not allowed to illegally sift through data, intrusively look into other peoples lives, keep major secrets from team leaders, or stay silent about massively important details...Well OL and Robin are definitely off the team.

TheEyes said:
Yeah, not likely. The Brazillian, Columbian, Ecuadoran, etc governments will tell their armies to mobilize, and they'll start napalming and gassing the rainforest. Western nations will wring their hands and whine, and the rest of the BRIC countries will send troops to assist in return for mining rights.

Absent the Bog God intervening and exterminating everyone (or OL mind-controlling people) we're looking at the start of one of the greatest ecological disasters in history.
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The problem there is that those politicians know that no matter what, there are going to be survivors. Doing this ensures that, at some point in the future, the top politicians and their families will be torn apart.
 
jonasquinn said:
Yes but those are either A) Civil wars which the League has no right to interfere with, B) Between countries that aren't members of the UN so the League can't operate there or C) Complicated enough that the UN wouldn't want them to involve themselves nor would there necessarily be a good and bad side

None of those apply to this situation
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This would be considered a civil war. Also, no-one wants the Justice League to step in and tell countries they can't go to war anymore. That's something Zoat has already said, in this episode, in story.
 
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RichardWhereat said:
This would be considered a civil war. Also, no-one wants the Justice League to step in and tell countries they can't go to war anymore. That's something Zoat has already said, in this chapter, in story.
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Yes but like I said, the second they involve other countries, which their demands explicitly do, it isn't a civil war anymore

It's multiple countries that are all member states of the UN fighting a superpowered terrorist group
 
Yeah, but again, no-one wants the Justice League to step in and tell countries they can't go to war anymore. That's something Zoat has already said, in this episode, in story.

They'd likely go to war against Brazil first, win, and then go to war against the other countries.

The tribespeople winning and replanting the jungles would go a long way to fixing the carbon emissions problem that Paul said he'd have to paint so many rooves white in order to counteract. Back in that interview that time.
 
jonasquinn said:
Oh I agree, I'm just saying that if It did come to a war the League would have to fight against them
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RichardWhereat said:
Yeah, but again, no-one wants the Justice League to step in and tell countries they can't go to war anymore. That's something Zoat has already said, in this episode, in story.

They'd likely go to war against Brazil first, win, and then go to war against the other countries.

The tribespeople winning and replanting the jungles would go a long way to fixing the carbon emissions problem that Paul said he'd have to paint so many rooves white in order to counteract. Back in that interview that time.
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jonasquinn said:
Yes but like I said, the second they involve other countries, which their demands explicitly do, it isn't a civil war anymore

It's multiple countries that are all member states of the UN fighting a superpowered terrorist group
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OK, I'm thinking the only way the league gets involved is if the south American governments declare them a supervillain group
 
The question of whether these tribes should be defined as supervillain or terrorist organization seems like it is directly connected to the question of what oppressed groups are morally allowed to do to resist their oppressor.

At what point does the heroic resistance become simply a group of terrorists?

I think that this is a really fascinating question that has no definitive answer. If anyone has a good take on this idea than I would love to read it.
 
david said:
If the team suddenly has a policy that you're not allowed to illegally sift through data, intrusively look into other peoples lives, keep major secrets from team leaders, or stay silent about massively important details...Well OL and Robin are definitely off the team.
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None of that is why Squire will be in trouble; she'll be in trouble for blurting out those secrets during a critically volatile period and potentially making the situation worse.

Darko said:
The Brazilians may try to declare them a supervillain group, but the League wouldn't buy it for one second.
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But they are; their stated goal is to displace tens of millions, an act which will result in destabilizing the entire Western hemisphere at the minimum and the deaths of tens to hundreds of thousands.

Yeah, sure, their other goal of restoring the rainforest is laudable, but that goal didn't make Poison Ivy or Ra's al Ghul suddenly heroes. Just because these guys aren't White doesn't mean they can get away with using the exact same methods and get to call themselves heroes.
 
RichardWhereat said:
Yeah, but again, no-one wants the Justice League to step in and tell countries they can't go to war anymore. That's something Zoat has already said, in this episode, in story.

They'd likely go to war against Brazil first, win, and then go to war against the other countries.

The tribespeople winning and replanting the jungles would go a long way to fixing the carbon emissions problem that Paul said he'd have to paint so many rooves white in order to counteract. Back in that interview that time.
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I can't see them winning against even one country tbh, their super strength and durability would give them an edge against ground troops but they'd be fucked once the air force came into play. Their powers wouldn't protect them against large missile strikes or gas attacks and they don't have the numbers to hold the amount of territory they're asking for.
 
Artificial_Icecube said:
I can't see them winning against even one country tbh, their super strength and durability would give them an edge against ground troops but they'd be fucked once the air force came into play. Their powers wouldn't protect them against large missile strikes or gas attacks and they don't have the numbers to hold the amount of territory they're asking for.
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You've forgotten how powerful Danner Enhanciles are, haven't you..
 
Artificial_Icecube said:
I can't see them winning against even one country tbh, their super strength and durability would give them an edge against ground troops but they'd be fucked once the air force came into play. Their powers wouldn't protect them against large missile strikes or gas attacks and they don't have the numbers to hold the amount of territory they're asking for.
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But why would they have to occupy that territory? All they have to do is attack industrial sites and infrastructure, hey don't even have to directly kill anyone. If one of them just sprints in, knocks down a bridge/ factory twice, that's a small town that's completely crippled. Good luck targeting any of them with those air strikes when you have to spot a nomadic tribe in the Amazon Rainforest in order to call one in. Even then, ten guys can suddenly come storming into any military base or airfield and see it razed to the ground within an hour. If a couple of guys get into any city, you choose between taking out most of your own city or letting them run rampant.

The only defense against this is superheroes on your side which means you're not allowed to use biological warfare or burn down huge swathes of the rainforest...in other words you have no chance of actually striking back. If Brazil can't effectively strike back, Danner and Co can take it slow and avoid killing anyone while Brazil is unable to defend any of its territory.

So many people in this thread seems to have completely forgotten how powerful a Danner enhancile actually is and how this story featured a single powered individual conquer an entire nation by just going full speed into the government HQ.
 
Ace Dreamer said:
I'm wondering if OL will try and side-step the whole problem by trying to 'sell' O'Neill habitats to any of those involved... Space rain forests? Space cattle ranches? Increase the amount of land under consideration... LL might approve...
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Space cattle ranches would be fantastic, Especially with a dolmen gate to move the animals to a space slaughterhouse, and another dolmen gate to move the meat to a dolmen network hub to move the meat worldwide.

One of the biggest carbon emitters is methane from Cattle, Sheep, and Pigs. If that primary industry could be moved off planet, we'd be able to reclaim a hell of a lot of land, and get remove a lot of carbon from future pollution.

That's a magnificent idea Ace, and I hope someone in-story suggests it to OL before the war gets started. The rainforest can return without bloodshed.
 
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