With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Ciber]

I just love the image of Fluttershy trying to coax Discord out from under her bed.

 

[Stsword]

Also it's worth remembering that while it's not technically Earth-16 canon, one of the DC Nation shorts that aired alongside Young Justice was "Shade, The Changing Man"...who was presented as a Lord of Chaos, albiet a (mostly?) benevolent one.

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No, that's fannon. Fannon I can only assume was started by people who know jack about Lords of Chaos or Shade the Changing Man. I've seen those shorts, there's nothing nada zilch zero indicating he's a lord of chaos in them.

-making Captain Nazi like Uncle Sam, magic superhero representing his country< while in the comics he was created through science by his brother who was a scientist and not a sorcerer like in this story

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Incorrect. Captain Nazi claimed to be the embodiment of National Socialism in Villains United #1 while fighting Black Adam, so no, Zoat didn't make that up.

 

[Mr Zoat]

It's not a new sentence though, it's a continuation after an ellipsis.

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No one reads the FAQ. No one reads the FAQ.

I actually like Discord since he was reformed so sad was chased off.

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'Reformed' Discord sided with Tirek. 'Reformed' Discord feigned illness, and later sheltered Tirek (again), Chryalis and the other one.

Curious, why was Changing Man killed since out of all the Lords of Chaos he was pretty chill and good?

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Powerful insane magic user trying to commit mass murder in a country that's had quite enough of that.

I've been looking forward to a Discord appearance/cameo this whole trip to Equestria... and this was quite the let-down. Especially given Grayven ostensibly just went through some major character growth focused on reigning in his assholish tendencies, but barely even two episode-parts later Grayven is immediately moving directly to threatening murder without even trying to ask for Discord to help/remove the local Chaos interference. Especially since the SI apparently knows that Discord can be redeemed/toned down already.

Grayven just went through a defining character moment about the power of friendship while at the same time removing the Anti-Life chunk in his soul, and then the first 'new' character interaction with someone he (meta) knows can be reasoned with is "I am going to murder you." This feels... bizarre, honestly. Why didn't Grayven just ask first?

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Do you know how many ponies died during Tirek's rampage?

If Sunset's magic works, what's to stop everyone from copying it and become Alicorns themselves?

(Big Mac would do it in a flash)

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Because the process is immensly complex. You would need a magic talent unicorn or alicorn every time. Otherwise, there isn't anything stopping everypony.

There is a great fanfic, The Great Alicorn Hunt, where that is basically the end goal. A sort of Transponiest Singularity, where everyone is immortal, extremely powerful and has access to all three pony magic types.

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I read that up until the end of the Windy City arc, which was almost pure nonsensical soapboxing, then gave up after the author repeatedly refused to engage with me.

I think Zoat said something about the renegade facing some problems from killing those Chaos Lords?

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He did?

The obvious consequence is that he's cutting himself off from potential allies. Not all Lords of Chaos are as bad as the ones he's encountered.

Mordru is generally presented as being up there with Time Trapper and Darkseid.

As for Shade the Changing Man, his feats don't matter because a Shade the Changing Man who is qualified to be a Lord of Chaos is verging on "In Name Only" characterization, since his powers don't come from knowing any magic whatsoever but from possessing the M-Vest.

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It's the Hellblazer version.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Ponies can wield swords?

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Yes, but controlling them with magic is a lot easier than holding them in mouths.

Um. Did Sunset just, sort of assume she was banished? Because I find no reference to such in the wiki.

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No, she was banished. Remind me this evening and I'll get a picture from the comic where it happened.

Spoiler: Never mind, here it is

Murderhobo. Who still doesn't know it just reincarnates them as mortals.

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No, he found that out after Klarion came back.

And yet he keeps stabbing people who are invariably replaced, often by even more reprehensible reprobates.

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They've got to run out eventually.

No, that's fannon. Fannon I can only assume was started by people who know jack about Lords of Chaos or Shade the Changing Man. I've seen those shorts, there's nothing nada zilch zero indicating he's a lord of chaos in them.

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Fanon. Though sadly I can't do the cranial artillery piece joke.

In other news, capitalising Luna's royal we's was a horrible decision and I regret it completely.

 

[Darko]

Comics Captain Nazi may have said he was the embodiment of National Socialism and Nazi Germany, but he wasn't literary that.
He was just some guy that was scientifically altered to be superhuman and to represent Nazi Germany and its ideals.
This stories Captain Nazi literary is Nazi Germany.
Lots of people say they embody something that doesn't make it true.

 

[Doccer]

I've been looking forward to a Discord appearance/cameo this whole trip to Equestria... and this was quite the let-down. Especially given Grayven ostensibly just went through some major character growth focused on reigning in his assholish tendencies, but barely even two episode-parts later Grayven is immediately moving directly to threatening murder without even trying to ask for Discord to help/remove the local Chaos interference. Especially since the SI apparently knows that Discord can be redeemed/toned down already.

Grayven just went through a defining character moment about the power of friendship while at the same time removing the Anti-Life chunk in his soul, and then the first 'new' character interaction with someone he (meta) knows can be reasoned with is "I am going to murder you." This feels... bizarre, honestly. Why didn't Grayven just ask first?

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Yeah after Grayven's expert use of Order to cause strife and chaos I thought for sure they'd get along surprisingly well.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Comics Captain Nazi may have said he was the embodiment of National Socialism and Nazi Germany, but he wasn't literary that.
He was just some guy that was scientifically altered to be superhuman and to represent Nazi Germany and its ideals.
This stories Captain Nazi literary is Nazi Germany.
Lots of people say they embody something that doesn't make it true.

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He made the claim to explain why dying hadn't killed him.

 

[Idkusername]

Yeah after Grayven's expert use of Order to cause strife and chaos I thought for sure they'd get along surprisingly well.

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Strife? Sure. Chaos? Not really. Chaos is a bitch to define, unless you go with the simplest explanation, as Zoat has done, and that's change. While Renegrayven did shake things up, it is still on a very interpersonal level right now, between the Mane Six. Add to that Grayven values order through conquest, even if only through conquest is enough. Plus, simply spreading chaos doesn't mean two chaos aligned people will get along. Look at the Paragon and Klarion.

 

[WereDragon]

No, she was banished. Remind me this evening and I'll get a picture from the comic where it happened.

Spoiler: Never mind, here it is

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Banished from the castle is rather less than Sunset had implied.
That is less 'you are banished' and more 'get out of my house'.

Also likely that Celestia was expecting Sunset to spend a few days in the city, learn some life lessons (make some friends?) and be open to reconciliation after they both calmed down. Not that she would run head-first through a magic portal to Faust knows where.

Wonder if Sunset has considered that without Grayven coming along she would almost certainly have died on Earth-16?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Banished from the castle is rather less than Sunset had implied.
That is less 'you are banished' and more 'get out of my house'.

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Sent away from the mirror and the greatest collection of magic knowledge in Equestria. She'd already outgrown the school.

Also likely that Celestia was expecting Sunset to spend a few days in the city, learn some life lessons (make some friends?) and be open to reconciliation after they both calmed down. Not that she would run head-first through a magic portal to Faust knows where.

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The fanfic 'Witch of the Everfree' went with that premise. Unfortunately, it didn't execute it particularly well.

Wonder if Sunset has considered that without Grayven coming along she would almost certainly have died on Earth-16?

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I don't think that she'd have died. After an hour or so she'd have been picked up by the police and then things would have gotten interesting.

 

[WereDragon]

Sent away from the mirror and the greatest collection of magic knowledge in Equestria. She'd already outgrown the school.

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Again 'get out of my personal library' isn't so much a sentence of banishment as a retraction of privileges.

The fanfic 'Witch of the Everfree' went with that premise. Unfortunately, it didn't execute it particularly well.

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I prefer the Freeport series. Better writing and a lot more worldbuilding.

 

[hkim]

Do you know how many ponies died during Tirek's rampage?

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The SI doesn't know.

Spoiler

 

[Mr Zoat]

The SI doesn't know.

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I didn't know you were writing a pony SI. Link?

 

[Rafin]

How far did Grayven!Paul actually get watching FiM before he got the orange ring?

 

[Mr Zoat]

How far did Grayven!Paul actually get watching FiM before he got the orange ring?

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Whatever was just before Equestria Girls was released.

 

[DrThoth]

Random question, but who created the power-neutralizing collars they use at Belle Reve? No one (on the heroic and lawful sides, anyway) seemed aware of the metagene until canon Season 2, so I'm wondering if there's a Word of Greg about it.

 

[Coda]

'tis truly a marvel.

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Missing capital letter

Oh, god, don't tell me there are sapient Hippos on Wilson

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There might be.

 

[Vaermina]

"What I'd have stabbed him with rather than taking a chance on Fluttershy. What me and mine have used to kill every Chaos Lord we've met to date. I believe in permanent solutions."

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By which he means he reincarnates them as mortals and hopes they are too stupid to just take back their power.

 

[Idkusername]

By which he means he reincarnates them as mortals and hopes they are too stupid to just take back their power.

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Who there, hide you hate boner, buddy! That's not decent behaviour in public!

Seriously, it's already been brought up before in story and out, in fact, Zoat literally cleared it up today. Jeez.

 

[Stsword]

It's the Hellblazer version.

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I read that storyline, it specifically referred to his power as madness every single time. Not magic (or chaos), madness.

It also made multiple references to the madness stream, the "place between worlds, the cracked underside of the universal mind."

Furthermore the comic made it a plot point that madness and magic aren't the same thing when Constantine was unable to summon the requisite madness to follow Shade and Epiphany, until he threw himself out of a window anyway.

So the Hellblazer version of Shade the Changing Man has madness powers and is connected to the Madness Stream, not magic powers and a connection to Chaos.

 

[Chaoswind]

By which he means he reincarnates them as mortals and hopes they are too stupid to just take back their power.

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So far the reincarnated mortals have been swiftly killed, so if the same same applies to the changing man then all the chaos lords that have been killed did indeed die twice.

 

[Stsword]

So far the reincarnated mortals have been swiftly killed, so if the same same applies to the changing man then all the chaos lords that have been killed did indeed die twice.

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Am I having an early senior moment? Because the only reincarnates I recall showing up in Renegade is Klarion, who is probably the least dangerous of the Lords of Chaos that Gravy has shanked with the blade.

 

[Vaermina]

Am I having an early senior moment? Because the only reincarnates I recall showing up in Renegade is Klarion, who is probably the least dangerous of the Lords of Chaos that Gravy has shanked with the blade.

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There was mention of Mordou's host showing up in Witchworld, but we never got any followup on it.

 

[Chaoswind]

There was mention of Mordou's host showing up in Witchworld, but we never got any followup on it.

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Am I having an early senior moment? Because the only reincarnates I recall showing up in Renegade is Klarion, who is probably the least dangerous of the Lords of Chaos that Gravy has shanked with the blade.

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Mordru got killed in Xerox, the lady said "We are capable of dealing with a man with no powers ourselves" as a follow-up to the lady telling Grayven they noticed the Sword reincarnated Mordru.

The implications are simple and self evident.

 

[Gromweld]

'Reformed' Discord sided with Tirek. 'Reformed' Discord feigned illness, and later sheltered Tirek (again), Chryalis and the other one.

Do you know how many ponies died during Tirek's rampage?

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Hmm. I didn't watch much of the show past the first few seasons so I'll grant you that, but if knowing that information requires a bit of a deep dive into extrapolations and inferences (perhaps even beyond what the SI would have known about before he got yoinked from Earth Prime) it's not going to be immediately clear to the audience why Grayven is instantly reverting to Murder Mode when everyone else in the room is merely exasperated by Discord's appearance.

A single line of Grayven mentally considering what he knows about how 'reformed' Discord is a threat if his 'whimsy' is not kept in check would be enough to give the audience an understanding of his reasoning here; given what you've linked/mentioned I'm less inclined to think Grayven was in the wrong, so it's more the lack of context for Grayven's sudden reversion of character growth (again, since no one else is reacting anywhere nearly as negatively as him to Discord) that's jarring.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Missing capital letter

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[zerofarad]

"What manner of blade is that?"

"What I'd have stabbed him with rather than taking a chance on Fluttershy. What me and mine have used to kill every Chaos Lord we've met to date. I believe in permanent solutions."

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Oh, the irony.

 

[Vaermina]

Mordru got killed in Xerox, the lady said "We are capable of dealing with a man with no powers ourselves" as a follow-up to the lady telling Grayven they noticed the Sword reincarnated Mordru.

The implications are simple and self evident.

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The problem of course being that Mordru wasn't the man, that was just his host.

 

[Doccer]

I prefer the Freeport series. Better writing and a lot more worldbuilding.

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Do you have a link?

 

[earlyriser]

I'd like to think The Changing Man almost went this route in Paragonverse, but Constantine instead invited him out to a pub to chat about exes.