With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

I'm saying that the "how far after" is a wrong way to think about, when you've soul raped them you're already reached a certain degree, the sex stuff is way lower on the evil bar compared to that. It's like caring more about a leader who committed genocide kicking a dog than the genocide part.

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I'd consider it to be more like doing evil shit after already doing evil shit, even if said shit serves no practical purpose. While the previous actions could be seen as being necessary from a certain point of view, the ones following the first deed have no practical point.

Problem is Kelly's Eye is not a supers story, it is a 'Unique Power' story, where the Eyes are the only exotic thing, except for super-science (Doctor Diamond) in the later bits. It's possible throwing him in a sun is not good enough, and you need to go exotic. SI OL might be able to defeat him, but it's likely to be a really nasty fight.

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The Eye may be the only exotic object in its own comic universe, but this one exists in a universe with thousands of exotic objects.

OL does have a lot of exotic abilities.

The fight would be nasty, but I'm sure paragon, or most of his alternates could beat him. And even if he has the ones he's controlling attack him, OL can deal with them, even if it is difficult, by either fighting them or taking control over them, or just taking this version through the Honden to a different location and defeating him there.

 

[ForeverShogo]

Reading these past few pages . . . Looks like the thing people are hung up on is Paul using the mind control to facilitate sex rather than any of the other things he's doing. Or at the very least it feels like there's this tone of, "Most of what he's done is understandable. But fucking Wonder Woman? That's crossing the line."

You have the ability to make people desire the same things that you want. You can essentially make everyone believe in everything that you believe. I have a feeling most people would not be able to avoid the temptation of using mind control to pass the kind of reforms they want to make or uplift humanity. (And yes, whoever argued otherwise, it's still an uplift even if you don't like the methods used.)

You're already rewriting their personality. If you're attracted to them, why not make them attracted to you too?

And you can't really say that having sex with Wonder Woman is pointless or has no practical purpose, Darko. The point of it is to have sex with Wonder Woman. The practical purpose is that you get to have sex with Wonder Woman.

This Paul is evil in the sense that he does things that are morally wrong. But he also apparently does enough good that I don't really think he's actually all that bad. If he's spreading advanced magics and hypertech and who knows what else to uplift humanity? Preventing human vs human conflicts? Other things of the like? . . . Making someone want to fuck him when they normally wouldn't just isn't that big of a deal to me.

 

[Vaermina]

So here's a question.

Why didn't Zeus kill Evil Paul with his Divine Lightning like he almost did the other Paul for far far less of an offense?

 

[dogbertcarroll]

So here's a question.

Why didn't Zeus kill Evil Paul with his Divine Lightning like he almost did the other Paul for far far less of an offense?

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Because Zeus has done far worse to women and this Paul isn't cockblocking him.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

The Eye may be the only exotic object in its own comic universe, but this one exists in a universe with thousands of exotic objects.

OL does have a lot of exotic abilities.

The fight would be nasty, but I'm sure paragon, or most of his alternates could beat him. And even if he has the ones he's controlling attack him, OL can deal with them, even if it is difficult, by either fighting them or taking control over them, or just taking this version through the Honden to a different location and defeating him there.

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I'm trying not to be too picky here... But...

Evil OL has multiple Orange Rings, the Orange Central Lantern, the Left Eye of Zoltan, protective tattoos, pet JLA (and thus their resources), body armour. Very likely mage killers and crumblers, other nasty stuff. Mr Zoat has implied he's also got the Right Eye (invulnerability, immovability, super strength/speed/senses). And, any exotic abilities he thought worth acquiring that he can have without being Enlightened.

SI OL may be able to defeat him, most of his alts would have to work really, really, hard. Being able to stack the Left Eye and Orange Light is not something anyone half-ways sane would want to face.

Am I missing some bit of logic here? It feels as though I might be.

 

[MadMarx420]

Reading these past few pages . . . Looks like the thing people are hung up on is Paul using the mind control to facilitate sex rather than any of the other things he's doing. Or at the very least it feels like there's this tone of, "Most of what he's done is understandable. But fucking Wonder Woman? That's crossing the line."

You have the ability to make people desire the same things that you want. You can essentially make everyone believe in everything that you believe. I have a feeling most people would not be able to avoid the temptation of using mind control to pass the kind of reforms they want to make or uplift humanity. (And yes, whoever argued otherwise, it's still an uplift even if you don't like the methods used.)

You're already rewriting their personality. If you're attracted to them, why not make them attracted to you too?

And you can't really say that having sex with Wonder Woman is pointless or has no practical purpose, Darko. The point of it is to have sex with Wonder Woman. The practical purpose is that you get to have sex with Wonder Woman.

This Paul is evil in the sense that he does things that are morally wrong. But he also apparently does enough good that I don't really think he's actually all that bad. If he's spreading advanced magics and hypertech and who knows what else to uplift humanity? Preventing human vs human conflicts? Other things of the like? . . . Making someone want to fuck him when they normally wouldn't just isn't that big of a deal to me.

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It's not a video game lol where you get positive and negative karma. Doesn't matter how much supposed good you're doing, evil is evil. This Zoat is basically an insane rapist who's probably mind and soul has probably been fucked up by the Orange light, and no number of good deeds will change that. This is like saying that if someone turned our society into a Star Trek like society but on the side they fucked kids, it would be fine because they did more good than bad. The best thing to hope for is that this version of Paul is obliterated.

Also a bit out of the blue but Zoat does the main Pauls version of Constantine have the Synchronicity Wave?

 

[King of Frost]

Why didn't Zeus kill Evil Paul with his Divine Lightning like he almost did the other Paul for far far less of an offense?

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Zeus wanted to kill Paragon because he convinced Hera to divorce him.

Zeus has actually done way worse shit than what Tangseid has done, just on a much smaller scale. I liked LSD but I'll call him this if everyone else does.

 

[ForeverShogo]

Didn't say it was a videogame. Or even that you can't kill him after he's laid the groundwork for some manner of utopia.

Just that I don't think he's really doing enough to get the reaction he has been getting.

He's brainwashing some people and sometimes he has sex with them. Sure. That's bad. But for the reaction he's been getting I'd expect something like he's going around personally flaying all of a nation's first born children and making leather products out of the skins he took from babies over the course of said flaying.

 

[MadMarx420]

Didn't say it was a videogame. Or even that you can't kill him after he's laid the groundwork for some manner of utopia.

Just that I don't think he's really doing enough to get the reaction he has been getting.

He's brainwashing some people and sometimes he has sex with them. Sure. That's bad. But for the reaction he's been getting I'd expect something like he's going around personally flaying all of a nation's first born children and making leather products out of the skins he took from babies over the course of said flaying.

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I personally think the reaction is justified. Evil is Evil, doesn't matter if it's major, minor or in the middle. Brainwashing people into doing things they'd have never done if they weren't and changing peoples minds/souls to make people want to do what you want and in some cases have sex with you is rape. In fact it's worse than rape. AFAIK it's been stated that orange lantern mind-control is very thorough and effects the soul.

It's disgusting and vile. It doesn't matter if he did it once, or twice the fact that he did it is enough. IMO, it's is one of the more evil things you can do, unlike other crimes, you don't accidentally commit rape. It's not an act that is committed in a moment of anger, it's not a crime of passion. It requires active, sustained and calculated thought to go through with it.

In the end no matter your reasoning, if you start messing with peoples minds/souls to force society to go in the direction you want to regardless of what others think and on top of that using that to change people to make them want to have sex with you, then the only thing you deserve is death. It's not even a few people, I believe unless I've read it wrong he's permantley changed the souls of 10s of thousands of people. Utilitarianism is something that I've never liked and never will. Same with the whole "Ends justify the means" belief.

Honestly in general, I'd be sceptical of what anyone who uses a lantern ring says, especially ones like orange. Since no matter how smart or how you think channelling pure emotion into you is not going to make you mentally well adjusted.

 

[Pinklestia]

Then I really hope someone gives them desires similar to their original self's, or at least remove their loyalty to this version sometime in the future.

And if this Paul Wars happens on the future then hopefully we'll see it.

The paragon is certainly skillful enough to do it.

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Nah.

Paragon had his huge Crisis already.

Grayven should be the one dealing with Evil Paul.

 

[Cuchulin]

To me about the only good thing to come out of Tangside's way of doing things is that Batman has very likely hooked up with Catwoman instead of the Demon Spawn.

 

[Vaermina]

Because Zeus has done far worse to women and this Paul isn't cockblocking him.

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Zeus wanted to kill Paragon because he convinced Hera to divorce him.

Zeus has actually done way worse shit than what Tangseid has done, just on a much smaller scale. I liked LSD but I'll call him this if everyone else does.

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There's an important fact you two are missing about the Greek Gods.

They are giant hypocrites.

Yes Zeus may go around raping women, but if someone goes out and rapes someone connected to him, well, we know what happens to that person because there are actual Greek myths that talk about that. And it's Death and Fate Worse then Death for the perpetrators.

 

[Hidden Variable]

I'm a little surprised too. I mean, it was what I was going for, but he's not doing anything about a tenth of the protagonists down in the NSFW section don't do in the first story segment.

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Let's be honest, most of those protagonists are morally repugnant and resemble NTRMen or dubcon hentai protagonists more than they do functional people. As while there is some quality stuff on this site, it is still the fetish pit.

 

[Darko]

Reading these past few pages . . . Looks like the thing people are hung up on is Paul using the mind control to facilitate sex rather than any of the other things he's doing. Or at the very least it feels like there's this tone of, "Most of what he's done is understandable. But fucking Wonder Woman? That's crossing the line."

You have the ability to make people desire the same things that you want. You can essentially make everyone believe in everything that you believe. I have a feeling most people would not be able to avoid the temptation of using mind control to pass the kind of reforms they want to make or uplift humanity. (And yes, whoever argued otherwise, it's still an uplift even if you don't like the methods used.)

You're already rewriting their personality. If you're attracted to them, why not make them attracted to you too?

And you can't really say that having sex with Wonder Woman is pointless or has no practical purpose, Darko. The point of it is to have sex with Wonder Woman. The practical purpose is that you get to have sex with Wonder Woman.

This Paul is evil in the sense that he does things that are morally wrong. But he also apparently does enough good that I don't really think he's actually all that bad. If he's spreading advanced magics and hypertech and who knows what else to uplift humanity? Preventing human vs human conflicts? Other things of the like? . . . Making someone want to fuck him when they normally wouldn't just isn't that big of a deal to me.

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Oh believe me I'm pissed at the other things aside from the sex, like rewriting the personalities of the other heroes. It's just that when we got to WW we saw how far he's willing to go even after that.

Just because you can commit some evil after commitng a previous evil it doesn't mean you should. That's really shitty justification for you actions.

I can say that fucking WW is pointless and serves no purpose since it doesn't benefit society or the greater good in any way. Altering her mindset so that she gives him the Purple Healing Ray or lethally dealing with unrepentant monsters can be good things, but that's it.

It really doesn't even benefit him all that much since a lot of people would consider his justifications for why he's doing that to her and any others to be half-assed at best and try to stop him. They may agree that some of the things he's done are good and some as being necessary, but why the fuck should he indulge in such depraved actions and still be allowed to stay on power when they don't serve any purpose.

Another problem with this Paul is that he's been corrupted by that chemical and possibly the Left Eye, as well as the ring, and he indulges in some fairly disturbing shit that serve no purpose and he feels no regret for them.

Letting someone that has been corrupted like that keep any sort of power without making some alterations to them is not just immoral, but incredibly stupid.

Sybarite is also corrupted somewhat by the demons he's consumed, but he's still got enough sense and decency to not do the shit this one is doing. He told Roulette that they didn't have to have sex to work together and accepted Tupence no longer wanting to have sex with him. He also didn't immedeatly decide that Diana being hesitant to sharing her tech with him means he needed to mind wipe her.

Baul was forced to work for the Syndicate and after it fell he was a wanted man that would have been killed without a trial so he needed to keep working for them to survive. He can also feel regret for his actions and know that what he is doing is bad.

Fantasy one did have sex with his thralls, but he altered the mindsets of sociopaths to lose their worst traits and didn't make them want to have sex with him, they chose that on their own. He was actually hesitant when they offered.

This Paul is so far into his corruption he indulges in depravity with no regret, he wasn't forced into doing the things he is and he doesn't need to keep doing them since he's in power now and continuing to indulge in depraved shit is just asking to have rebellions be formed against him, he doesn't regret his actions and has about a million shitty self deluded justifications for his actions, he also didn't limit his worst traits to just villains, but to the actual good guys.

Yeah leaving someone like that in charge without making alterations is just stupid.

There was this one Kurt Russel movie where a mean rich woman loses her memories and Kurt's characters pretended like their married. We see her struggle with her new life until she eventually fell in love with him and they got together for real. We were meant to agree with the actions of Kurt's character since she was a mean rich bitch before, but if this happened in real life his character would have been arrested and she would have been sent to therapy.

 

[ChiChi]

She opens it with the same care and smiles as she sees the book inside. "I hadn't got around to reading this."

"That copy's edited by me. Only one in the world with Harriet Taylor's name on the cover."

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what book was it?

 

[Darko]

what book was it?

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A book by Harriet Taylor, who may not have existed in this universe.


Which book it is exactly it doesn't say however.

 

[Valint]

With the forced end to warfare in this world, I would expect that there are actually more rapes occurring every day on Paragon's Earth than there are on this Paul's Earth.

If you believe that superheroes are to blame for the results of inaction (i.e., the "Batman is responsible for Joker's murders, because he could just summarily execute him but doesn't" point of view), then one could argue from the same utilitarian perspective that Paragon is the evil one here for not taking over the Earth.

 

[Darko]

With the forced end to warfare in this world, I would expect that there are actually more rapes occurring every day on Paragon's Earth than there are on this Paul's Earth.

If you believe that superheroes are to blame for the results of inaction (i.e., the "Batman is responsible for Joker's murders, because he could just summarily execute him but doesn't" point of view), then one could argue from the same utilitarian perspective that Paragon is the evil one here for not taking over the Earth.

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I'm more against this version because of the fact that he does depraved shit for no good reason and that leaving someone so corrupted in any position of power without altering them is incredibly risky and stupid.

And while it is somewhat true that if paragon took over things may be better, that isn't exactly a guarantee.

Paragon isn't evil since he doesn't engage in evil actions, or has what might be called an evil mindset.

The times he commited things we may call evil against people was to purely evil people like the Citadelians, not to innocents.

Yes paragon can do some questionable things to accomplish his goals, but he doesn't indulge in anything but the bare necessities.

 

[Fellow]

I'm more against this version because of the fact that he does depraved shit for no good reason and that leaving someone so corrupted in any position of power without altering them is incredibly risky and stupid.

And while it is somewhat true that if paragon took over things may be better, that isn't exactly a guarantee.

Paragon isn't evil since he doesn't engage in evil actions, or has what might be called an evil mindset.

The times he commited things we may call evil against people was to purely evil people like the Citadelians, not to innocents.

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I think that evil is still evil, whether or not it's done to evil people, it's the why that I believe matters. With the Citadelians he knew he couldn't reasonably change them without completely rewriting the way they think like what was done to WW in this iteration.

 

[Darko]

I think that evil is still evil, whether or not it's done to evil people, it's the why that I believe matters. With the Citadelians he knew he couldn't reasonably change them without completely rewriting the way they think like what was done to WW in this iteration.

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Yeah OL couldn't make the Citadelians better without some deep level alteration that he wasn't all that comfortable with, so in order to destroy the hold they had on Vega he had to kill a lot of them.

This Paul likely didn't need to go to the extremes he has, especially with the heroes, and he certainly didn't need to do the things he did after the mind-wipe, seeing as they don't serve any purpose.

He also didn't do some of the things he did after the mind-wipe because they somehow benefited society, but because he wanted to indulge his depravities.

He may have somehow justified it to himself that making them into sex slaves somehow serves society, but that's a shitty justification that holds no water.

Paragon did his act of mass murder because there was no other reasonable way to remove the Citadelians from power in Vega, and after he did that he was trying to not do something like that again and trying to adopt more diplomatic methods.

This one is still engaging in his evil shit even when it serves little to no purpose aside from indulging his evil, self deluded nature.

 

[Vaermina]

I'm trying not to be too picky here... But...

Evil OL has multiple Orange Rings, the Orange Central Lantern, the Left Eye of Zoltan, protective tattoos, pet JLA (and thus their resources), body armour. Very likely mage killers and crumblers, other nasty stuff. Mr Zoat has implied he's also got the Right Eye (invulnerability, immovability, super strength/speed/senses). And, any exotic abilities he thought worth acquiring that he can have without being Enlightened.

SI OL may be able to defeat him, most of his alts would have to work really, really, hard. Being able to stack the Left Eye and Orange Light is not something anyone half-ways sane would want to face.

Am I missing some bit of logic here? It feels as though I might be.

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Under Zoat's own rules about the Ring not being able to effect Magic, the Eye and Power Ring should be incompatible together since the Eye would be covering his body in a magical effect.

 

[Darko]

Under Zoat's own rules about the Ring not being able to effect Magic, the Eye and Power Ring should be incompatible together since the Eye would be covering his body in a magical effect.

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Renegade was able to infuse a bit of his godhood into his ring to track where Roy was being held when he was behind wards.

He was able to assimilate a Lord of Order.

Sybarite is basically in the lead for getting the hang of absorbing demons and magic.

Paragon was able to take some of Sephtians magic after he went to Hell, he's able to assimilate demons, a Lord of Chaos' familiar.

The Ring is able to affect magic, but it may not be all that easy.

 

[Ej190]

Zoat, how in the world did this Paul manage to subvert the entire Justice League with Orange light without the GLC noticing? Especially since the League has two GLs on it.

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Considering how Paul managed to overcome the entire Justice League in that other DC universe (the uhhh, Hope Paul stuck in evil DC?), I can see it being a distinct possibility.

Orange ring+meta knowledge Vs a Justice League that doesn't have their own version of master stranger protocols? EvilPaul probably didn't even break a sweat. ESPECIALLY if he went after Batman first.

Gotta say, this version of Paul actively makes me nauseous. Took a while for it to sink in, but the image of him tying Diana to the OCB, mindraping her to the point of erasing her original personality is really really disturbing. It's even more horrifying as the event is being described as E-paul is making out with the meat puppet.

 

[Vaermina]

Considering how Paul managed to overcome the entire Justice League in that other DC universe (the uhhh, Hope Paul stuck in evil DC?), I can see it being a distinct possibility.

Orange ring+meta knowledge Vs a Justice League that doesn't have their own version of master stranger protocols? EvilPaul probably didn't even break a sweat. ESPECIALLY if he went after Batman first.

Gotta say, this version of Paul actively makes me nauseous. Took a while for it to sink in, but the image of him tying Diana to the OCB, mindraping her to the point of erasing her original personality is really really disturbing. It's even more horrifying as the event is being described as E-paul is making out with the meat puppet.

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Eh... You shouldn't defend what was effectively a Dues Ex Machina.

That Eye that was mentioned only exists on Silver Age Earth, which means that Paul is on Silver Age Earth, which means he should have gotten curb stomped by everyone since the weakness he might use to defeat them don't really exist.

So told honestly, Evil Paul's story would have ended with Batman pulling out some Anti Paul spray, Superman showing up and going HAHAHAHA I am immune to your everything, or Wonder Woman turning into a god and kicking him in the balls hard enough to turn him into a woman.

 

[Darko]

Eh... You shouldn't defend what was effectively a Dues Ex Machina.

That Eye that was mentioned only exists on Silver Age Earth, which means that Paul is on Silver Age Earth, which means he should have gotten curb stomped by everyone since the weakness he might use to defeat them don't really exist.

So told honestly, Evil Paul's story would have ended with Batman pulling out some Anti Paul spray, Superman showing up and going HAHAHAHA I am immune to your everything, or Wonder Woman turning into a god and kicking him in the balls hard enough to turn him into a woman.

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Zoat doesn't exactly like to write about the Silver Age due to its OP nature, so even if the Eye was Silver Age Zoat may have downgraded any OP abilities it has.

Even Silver Age Supes and WW have weaknesses that could be exploited and this is most likely not their Silver Age versions.

If he attacked Batman when he was unprepared and didn't know everything about him it could have worked.

Batman is a brilliant detective, but he's not Tatteltale.

Believe me I would like for the Silver Age versions of these guys to beat the living shit out of him, but it's unlikely to happen sadly.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

Straight Utilitarianism is a decent start at a rational philosophy, but it breaks-down badly if you push it hard, in a number of ways. This is one reason that Virtue Ethics as put forward by Michael Sandel has been proving popular, in reasonably recent years - it seems to handle a number of things that Utilitarianism stumbles over badly, in ways that fit in with the human sense of fairness, and the sort of society that Western liberal philosophy seems to think reasonable. If you want to dig into such issues I'd recommend checking out Stanford.

The great weakness of Utilitarianism is the same as the weakness of reductionist science, as was parodied by TerryP in 'Thief of Time', with the Auditors. It leads you to highly suspect reasoning about what is 'right', under certain circumstances. Virtue Ethics, in its original form, was mixed in with views that don't fit modern societies, but the Sandel version looks to function far better. Part of the essence is asking yourself questions like "Is this the sort of behaviour that fits with the sort of society that we'd like to be living in?", as a test to ensure your reasoning hasn't gone off the rails.

Why might the above be 'On Topic'? Because the philosophy of the SI has really major impact on the story.

what book was it?

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I'm guessing this is Harriet Taylor, so a copy of her Complete Works would make sense, and be a good present for Diana/WW.

 

[Darko]

Straight Utilitarianism is a decent start at a rational philosophy, but it breaks-down badly if you push it hard, in a number of ways. This is one reason that Virtue Ethics as put forward by Michael Sandel has been proving popular, in reasonably recent years - it seems to handle a number of things that Utilitarianism stumbles over badly, in ways that fit in with the human sense of fairness, and the sort of society that Western liberal philosophy seems to think reasonable. If you want to dig into such issues I'd recommend checking out Stanford.

The great weakness of Utilitarianism is the same as the weakness of reductionist science, as was parodied by TerryP in 'Thief of Time', with the Auditors. It leads you to highly suspect reasoning about what is 'right', under certain circumstances. Virtue Ethics, in its original form, was mixed in with views that don't fit modern societies, but the Sandel version looks to function far better. Part of the essence is asking yourself questions like "Is this the sort of behaviour that fits with the sort of society that we'd like to be living in?", as a test to ensure your reasoning hasn't gone off the rails.

Why might the above be 'On Topic'? Because the philosophy of the SI has really major impact on the story.


I'm guessing this is Harriet Taylor, so a copy of her Complete Works would make sense, and be a good present for Diana/WW.

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These various versions of Paul are basically to show us how the SI would have developed differently.

The ones with different rings show how he would work with a different mindset.

The ones with an orange ring were shown how they would be like if they got another power source, Sybarite, made more sensible decisions, Common Sense, if they didn't use their ring, Peter, gave themselves something extra to compensate for lack of ring charge, Angel, or as the recent one showed, how an OL that went full utilitarian and abandoned conventional morality completely would be like.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

an OL that went full utilitarian and abandoned conventional morality completely

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The problem with 'conventional morality' is that it isn't coherent, more 'I'm not happy with this, but I can't tell you exactly why'. If this sort of thing interests you I'd recommend checking-out Sandel in his role as the 'Public Philosopher', where he gets people to explain their views, and then teases-out the reasoning that they think they're based on.

 

[Vaermina]

Zoat doesn't exactly like to write about the Silver Age due to its OP nature, so even if the Eye was Silver Age Zoat may have downgraded any OP abilities it has.

Even Silver Age Supes and WW have weaknesses that could be exploited and this is most likely not their Silver Age versions.

If he attacked Batman when he was unprepared and didn't know everything about him it could have worked.

Batman is a brilliant detective, but he's not Tatteltale.

Believe me I would like for the Silver Age versions of these guys to beat the living shit out of him, but it's unlikely to happen sadly.

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Actually Silver Age Superman took the cure for his only weakness.

 

[Idkusername]

Komand'r

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Coriander