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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Darko said:
Her actions were as worse as they appeared, the writers of the show just made it so that we would agree with her actions.
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I cannot comment on this since I haven't seen the show, but MrZoat has changed things in this manner before.
Of course there's also been cases where the SI thinks something is stupid without knowing the circumstances and being flat out wrong, but those are rare. Also, very cool.

Idkusername said:
Oh wow! A fanfiction that changes stuff from the original story? What a novel idea!
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Changing the original to be able to say "See? The original is stupid" is where this becomes a problem. Exhibit A: HPMoR.
Not saying this is the case here, though, and I often like the way MrZoat expands on the source.
 
Slayer Anderson said:
For the most part, everyone seems pants-on-head retarded and the canon world seems to bend over backwards to give an entitled brat justification to go out and play lethal games with mass murderers while involving her friends and family without the majority having knowledge or consent.
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Having watched the first couple episodes, mostly it comes across as a story about improperly secured tinker-tech. Like, the lethal games start with the staff barging into Courtney's bedroom on its own volition, and when she makes the mistake of grasping it hauling her bodily out the window, generally prodding her into a fight with Brainwave's son culminating in it blowing up Brainwave's car against Courtney's objections.
This annoys the mass murderer, who tracks her down, trounces her in a fight, and later at school pins her in place and promises to kill her mother unless she turns over the powerful superheroing artefact, which in turn would in no world go along with that plan - in short, Courtney has no good options. (Especially without the Zoat retcon of "actually there were more responsible adults around all this time", but either way she has no reason to suspect their existence.)

I'm sure by the time the story gets to the burglary described in the update, things are more premeditated - but again, why does Pat even have the keys? The answer in the text of the show(if possibly not the review series by someone who dislikes the show) is there is nobody left, and the alternative to foolhardy heroics is giving up and getting murdered by the villain. Which would have less collateral damage true, but I don't think that adds up to the protagonists's main flaw being one of an Entitled Teenager who should just Wait For The Cavalry (SI) like a good girl.

"Yeah, I-. I didn't want Courtney getting involved. I didn't want to say anything to encourage her, so I didn't tell her about Infinity Inc. I don't think she knows you guys exist."
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This is the core departure from the universe this update is ostensibly set in, prompting all the condescension about lack of research and self-absorption and so on. The Wikipedia plot summaries do not to date contain any mention of Infinity Inc. Or any other living heroes. Or Barbara being already in on the mascarade, and lying to Courtney when directly asked about her father. Again: the cavalry is not, canonically, coming.
 
ohA said:
Having watched the first couple episodes, mostly it comes across as a story about improperly secured tinker-tech. Like, the lethal games start with the staff barging into Courtney's bedroom on its own volition, and when she makes the mistake of grasping it hauling her bodily out the window, generally prodding her into a fight with Brainwave's son culminating in it blowing up Brainwave's car against Courtney's objections.
This annoys the mass murderer, who tracks her down, trounces her in a fight, and later at school pins her in place and promises to kill her mother unless she turns over the powerful superheroing artefact, which in turn would in no world go along with that plan - in short, Courtney has no good options. (Especially without the Zoat retcon of "actually there were more responsible adults around all this time", but either way she has no reason to suspect their existence.)

I'm sure by the time the story gets to the burglary described in the update, things are more premeditated - but again, why does Pat even have the keys? The answer in the text of the show(if possibly not the review series by someone who dislikes the show) is there is nobody left, and the alternative to foolhardy heroics is giving up and getting murdered by the villain. Which would have less collateral damage true, but I don't think that adds up to the protagonists's main flaw being one of an Entitled Teenager who should just Wait For The Cavalry (SI) like a good girl.



This is the core departure from the universe this update is ostensibly set in, prompting all the condescension about lack of research and self-absorption and so on. The Wikipedia plot summaries do not to date contain any mention of Infinity Inc. Or any other living heroes. Or Barbara being already in on the mascarade, and lying to Courtney when directly asked about her father. Again: the cavalry is not, canonically, coming.
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Yes she may have needed to use the staff to defend herself against Brainwave, but she decided to fight the ISA even when there was no immediate need to do so.

They may have decided to track her down after she put Brainwave in a coma, but she didn't know that.

She also decided to get the help of a bunch of untrained teenagers to help her fight fully trained adults, thus risking their lives and putting a target on their backs.

Her actions against Brainwave were understandable, but her actions after that weren't.

We may have been a bit too harsh against her, but it can't be denied that some of her decisions were ill thought out.
 
Mr Zoat said:
"Give it back! That's my dad's!"

"No, it's my dad's."

She grabs it while he's still holding onto it, prompting him to shake his head and let go. She smiles slightly and tries to pull it towards herself, only for it not to move at all.

"What? What's going on!?"

"It's designed to recognise its owner's brainwaves, and I'm its owner."
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This bit, to a lesser extent, also twinges a sense of… making the story much less interesting than it started as? The show describes and depicts the staff as "temperamental", think Doctor Strange's cape or Grayven's Motherbox; playful whimsy, holding opinions on what actions are just and unjust, working with the hero according to those opinions. (As previously mentioned, in what I've seen of the show so far it exerts far more agency than Courtney herself, though I suspect by episode 6 this is less the case)

Perhaps this is all entirely the brainwave scanner being faulty from disuse, but even that would have no reason to magically clear up the second Jack gets in summoning range! Have him keep the thing by all means, but them bickering about how they own the staff by inheritance and that determines what it'll do full stop is beneath both of them.
 
ohA said:
This bit, to a lesser extent, also twinges a sense of… making the story much less interesting than it started as? The show describes and depicts the staff as "temperamental", think Doctor Strange's cape or Grayven's Motherbox; playful whimsy, holding opinions on what actions are just and unjust, working with the hero according to those opinions. (As previously mentioned, in what I've seen of the show so far it exerts far more agency than Courtney herself, though I suspect by episode 6 this is less the case)

Perhaps this is all entirely the brainwave scanner being faulty from disuse, but even that would have no reason to magically clear up the second Jack gets in summoning range! Have him keep the thing by all means, but them bickering about how they own the staff by inheritance and that determines what it'll do full stop is beneath both of them.
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The staff was made to respond to its owners brainwaves and it wouldn't be surprising if Knight made it so members of his family can qualify as owners.

The staff may still have some problems, but being held by a guy it recognises as its owner could get rid of some of that temperamental attitude.
 
Darko said:
They may have decided to track her down after she put Brainwave in a coma, but she didn't know that.
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"Giant star-shaped patch of ice"

Darko said:
We may have been a bit too harsh against her, but it can't be denied that some of her decisions were ill thought out.
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Yeah by no means, just, some of Paul's decisions are at times ill thought-out, this is different from being an entitled brat that needs a giant green construct spanking. (Or his 15 year old Young Justice teammates, more relevantly)

The recruitment I haven't gotten to, and perhaps deserves that sentiment more :p
 
ohA said:
"Giant star-shaped patch of ice"


Yeah by no means, just, some of Paul's decisions are at times ill thought-out, this is different from being an entitled brat that needs a giant green construct spanking. (Or his 15 year old Young Justice teammates, more relevantly)

The recruitment I haven't gotten to, and perhaps deserves that sentiment more :p
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Paul's decisions at least haven't been as bad as trying to recruit untrained children to fight hardened killers.

Yes paragon and renegade Paul have recruited other teenagers, like Robert, Beryl and Tao, for the Team, but all of them already had training and experience in the use of their abilities and in fighting villains.

The ones Courtney is recruiting don't.
 
ohA said:
Having watched the first couple episodes, mostly it comes across as a story about improperly secured tinker-tech. Like, the lethal games start with the staff barging into Courtney's bedroom on its own volition, and when she makes the mistake of grasping it hauling her bodily out the window, generally prodding her into a fight with Brainwave's son culminating in it blowing up Brainwave's car against Courtney's objections.
This annoys the mass murderer, who tracks her down, trounces her in a fight, and later at school pins her in place and promises to kill her mother unless she turns over the powerful superheroing artefact, which in turn would in no world go along with that plan - in short, Courtney has no good options. (Especially without the Zoat retcon of "actually there were more responsible adults around all this time", but either way she has no reason to suspect their existence.)

I'm sure by the time the story gets to the burglary described in the update, things are more premeditated - but again, why does Pat even have the keys? The answer in the text of the show(if possibly not the review series by someone who dislikes the show) is there is nobody left, and the alternative to foolhardy heroics is giving up and getting murdered by the villain. Which would have less collateral damage true, but I don't think that adds up to the protagonists's main flaw being one of an Entitled Teenager who should just Wait For The Cavalry (SI) like a good girl.
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All of that honestly just raises more questions about why the villains didn't just take all of the super powerful artifacts in the first place if there really was no one left.

Also, if this is something like a decade after the fall of the JSA, how is society still standing virtually intact without anyone to defend it from the small army of super-powered mass murderers?

This just all seems like a poorly thought-out setting engineering to allow the main character to always be correct in her actions (or at the very least, excusably incorrect) no matter what happens.

Edit: No joke, everything I've heard reminds me a western teen drama trying to justify itself as a magical girl anime. Not even a good one either, but one of the third-rate ripoffs.
 
Slayer Anderson said:
All of that honestly just raises more questions about why the villains didn't just take all of the super powerful artifacts in the first place if there really was no one left.
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Perhaps they were injured, armed police or superhero reinforcements were on the way, or the arefacts were recovered from the heroes individual home bases for museum display?
Also, if this is something like a decade after the fall of the JSA, how is society still standing virtually intact without anyone to defend it from the small army of super-powered mass murderers?
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Lack of force projection. None of them have armies of loyal soldiers with which to conquer, and none of them have the raw power to not need an army. Sportsmaster might be able to beat a superhero or a squad of soldiers in a fight but he can't beat an army, which is what he'd end up fighting.
This just all seems like a poorly thought-out setting engineering to allow the main character to always be correct in her actions (or at the very least, excusably incorrect) no matter what happens.
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Not arguing with you there.
 
Slayer Anderson said:
All of that honestly just raises more questions about why the villains didn't just take all of the super powerful artifacts in the first place if there really was no one left.

Also, if this is something like a decade after the fall of the JSA, how is society still standing virtually intact without anyone to defend it from the small army of super-powered mass murderers?

This just all seems like a poorly thought-out setting engineering to allow the main character to always be correct in her actions (or at the very least, excusably incorrect) no matter what happens.

Edit: No joke, everything I've heard reminds me a western teen drama trying to justify itself as a magical girl anime. Not even a good one either, but one of the third-rate ripoffs.
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There's also the fact that the ISA villains are really underwhelming when it comes to power that it makes no sense that they would have been able to defeat the JSA.

The JSA had the likes of Green Lantern and Dr Fate in their group, while the ISA mostly had characters that are fairly weak in terms of power or had power that could be dealt with.

The only one that may have presented the JSA with any trouble would be the Shade and that's assuming they'd make him the uber powerful god he's in the pre n52 comics, and not say just a guy that can wield shadows, or more like his n52 self, who even though is powerful isn't the godlike being he is in pre n52 comics.

If Shade is like his pre n52 self then all this Paul gas to do is avoid him and focus on the rest of the ISA, who would be fairly easy to take down.
 
Slayer Anderson said:
This just all seems like a poorly thought-out setting engineering to allow the main character to always be correct in her actions (or at the very least, excusably incorrect) no matter what happens.
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Don't forget that the comics character was created based on the creator's dead sister. That writer then went out to be the showrunner, executive producer, and head writer on the show (Geoff Johns). That Courtney is able to get away with as much as she does is because she's effectively on easy mode.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Solomon Grundy is a high-tier melee fighter, and when he's not focusing Green Lantern can be killed by conventional weapons.
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Grundys also not that bright and has been portrayed as being only capable of swinging his fists around with no skill, Scott tends to practically be the poster boy of willpower and the JSA still had Dr Fate.

Also the other members, like Flash, are powerful enough to be able to deal with the mostly baseline ISA.

The shows writers really chose a poor group to portray as being capable of destroying the JSA.

Aside from Shade and Grundy I don't think any of them would present all that much of a threat to them.
 
I don't about this setting, but is it possible they picked them off one by one? The entire group vs a single hero, over and over, to overpower them via numbers?
 
Pinklestia said:
Considering Alan's ring doesn't have AI, did he use the orange ring to improve his brain or something? Because the thing is a lot harder to use than what you would think.
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Yes, it's going to be a slog. Fortunately, Jade had to learn to use the green light the hard way as well.
 
Darko said:
The SI was criticizing the GROUP OF UNTRAINED TEENAGERS WHO WANTED TO FIGHT PEOPLE THAT MANAGED TO KILL VETERAN SUPERHEROES, which is a perfectly valid thing to criticize.
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Omake: Common Sense Titans

"You did what?" Beast Boy asked, sounding incredulous.

"I called Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman." Robin said in a defeated tone.

"Dude, you didn't call for backup even during the whole Trigon deal!"

"That was because I do not have any magical contacts. Well I could have tried to get Doctor Fate but I don't know if he is still around and he may have decided to just kill Raven."

"So... is the Brotherhood of Evil such a big deal? We usually defeated them when I was in the Doom Patrol." Beast Boy asked sounding confused.

"They are now that they rooster has expanded. They have more experience than us and it shows."

"So... is out our hands now?" Beast Boy say down in the couch in a grumpy mood.

"I... I don't know okay? This...this is a worldwide supervillain organization! I can't just give a communicator to every young hero I find and call a day! Heck my pride costs us so much when dealing with Slade. I have to think not only whatever is good for the Team, but whatever is good for the World."

"I.. I think I get it, but you still should have asked us first." Beast Boy said and turned on the TV.

"You know what they say, hindsight is-"

"Whatever, I am not the one who will have to explain this to the rest of the team."

"I know... pass me the nachos."

"Here."
 
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Mr Zoat said:
I haven't watched it. I just like to watch Mr Unlimited's reviews.
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And suddenly the thinly disguised rage fic is explained.


Slayer Anderson said:
I'm honestly not sure that this show is worth getting upset over, even if some people don't like Zoat's specific alterations or the timeline or continuity.

For the most part, everyone seems pants-on-head retarded and the canon world seems to bend over backwards to give an entitled brat justification to go out and play lethal games with mass murderers while involving her friends and family without the majority having knowledge or consent.

All in all, this show seems objectively terrible to the point where anything of any quality written within it is basically attempting to polish a turd to a shine.

I'm not saying it can't be done to everyone's satisfaction, Mythbusters proved that, I'm just saying that making something worthwhile out of Stargirl looks like it would take an entire dedicated story the size of the main Paragon or Renegade continuity in and of itself, and I don't want to read that. So I can't really work up the wherewithall to care about what this chapter does well or badly.
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You might have had a leg to stand on here if Zoat had actually watched the show instead of just watching some guy on the internet rant about it.


Darko said:
The ones Courtney is recruiting don't.
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Two out of three don't, the first was actually a trained fighter.

And the third involves a genetically locked super power device that only can be used by a single person.

But yea, there's actually no real excuse for the 5 foot 2 overweight token black girl with doctor midnight's googles.

Also Courtney herself is a high level gymnast.

And on a note, the show has spent the last three episodes having Pat try to hold the others back because it's dangerous, and then having Courtney get her ass beat down and stabbed through the chest because she wouldn't listen.
 
Vaermina said:
Two out of three don't, the first was actually a trained fighter.
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Knowing how to fight and having the experience and training to fight skilled fighters with years of experience like Tigress and Sportsmaster is a whole different thing.

Vaermina said:
And the third involves a genetically locked super power device that only can be used by a single person.
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Just because he has super strength that doesn't mean that he knows how to use it all that well, and it doesn't mean it's going to help him all that much against the ones that managed to kill a guy that had more experience with said power.

Vaermina said:
Also Courtney herself is a high level gymnast.
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Gymnasts, while physically fit, may not know how to fight and I doubt they'd know how to fight the likes of Sportsmaster and Tigress.

Vaermina said:
And on a note, the show has spent the last three episodes having Pat try to hold the others back because it's dangerous, and then having Courtney get her ass beat down and stabbed through the chest because she wouldn't listen.
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At least they're showing that rash actions can have terrible consequences.

Vaermina said:
You might have had a leg to stand on here if Zoat had actually watched the show instead of just watching some guy on the internet rant about it.
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Even if Zoat actually watched the show I doubt it would have changed his opinion of it all that much.

Yes it's not exactly fair to criticize a show you've never seen, but from everything we've seen so far from it, it is understandable why someone would have a low opinion of it.
 
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