With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Buggy123]

Also: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

Not the best definition you offered, it's a lot broader than that.

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Hmm, that's actually weird, it seems to be a bit split;

Oxford, which seems to be the one that Google uses in this case - "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."

dictionary.com gives several similar ones from different sources:
their own published dictionary - "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion."
Collins English Dictionary (2012) - "a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race"; checking their website gives a very similar definition.

vocabulary.com states that it's essentially synonymous with "racist" - "A bigot is someone who doesn't tolerate people of different races or religions."

Cambridge Dictionary - "a person who has strong, unreasonable ideas, esp. about race or religion, and who thinks anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong"

It definitely seems split; most agree that it's someone who is intolerant of something, but what specifically, and to what degree, varies a lot. I haven't actually seen a word with this much contention between definitions, that's pretty interesting. Personally, I'd take that to mean that current usage of the word is pretty flexible, so people are having a hard time nailing down a exact definition when asked to.

 

[Ct613hulu]

Getting back on topic. Does anyone else think that these could be minions of the Queen of Fables? It would make some sense for her to employ a fictional species as minions. Are there any other villains who can bring fictional beings to life?

 

[Ardy]

Getting back on topic. Does anyone else think that these could be minions of the Queen of Fables? It would make some sense for her to employ a fictional species as minions. Are there any other villains who can bring fictional beings to life?

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But.... they're not fictional. They're magical, but that's totally fine on Earth-16

 

[Ct613hulu]

My understanding of the last two chapters is that these creatures resemble an in-universe fictional depiction of Gnomes which also inaccurately described them as the foot-soldiers of dragons.

 

[Buggy123]

Personally, I'm surprised they're not kobolds. They really fit the description, anyway. And I don't think D&D copyrighted them.
And besides, they're so universally known nowadays that it's hardly even a D&D thing anymore.

 

[Queshire]

Well Kobolds as a fantastical creature have been around longer than D&D, but the little dragon man version of them is pretty specific to D&D.

 

[Simon Buchan]

Hmm, most stories which have fictional creatures "really" exist have the cause be some internal mechanic of the universe, like "people knowing a story causes it to be true in a new world, and those worlds have access to 'our' world" (Fable).
That is, their proximal cause is (meta)physics, and their ultimate cause is stories, so they are legitimately both fictional and real.
If a person, like Queen of Fables, is the proximal cause of their existence, can they really be said to be fictional, or are they just based on a fictional character?
Under the assumption that these not-Gnomes are created from this book illustration deliberately (presumably by this dragon?) they would be the same.

That said,

The author says that the work they took the picture from said that these creatures served as foot soldiers for dragons

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Makes it sound a lot more like some doofus just called some creatures Gnomes incorrectly, and they are just a original creation of dragons out something.

 

[rkyeun]

If a person, like Queen of Fables, is the proximal cause of their existence, can they really be said to be fictional, or are they just based on a fictional character?

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Th difference between fiction and reality is that reality doesn't go away when you stop believing in it. So this is a testable mechanism that can be applied to these things. If everyone stops believing in them, do they go away?

 

[Simon Buchan]

Th difference between fiction and reality is that reality doesn't go away when you stop believing in it. So this is a testable mechanism that can be applied to these things. If everyone stops believing in them, do they go away?

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Sure, but that definition of "fictional" simply excludes the possibility of a "real fictional" character. That's self consistent, but boring!

 

[Queshire]

This is a strange, strange conversation yet it is still better than the preceding one.

 

[Mquz]

Literally anyone can convert to Judaism, it's not a race, it's an opinion on divinity. So yeah, you can tell if someone is bigoted based on one sentence.

Also: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

Not the best definition you offered, it's a lot broader than that.

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Being Jewish is not just an opinion on God - some people will get insulted. For Humanistic Jews - it's more about following a code of laws and traditions and therefore being considered Jewish than it is about religious belief - they celebrate all their holidays without any mentions of God. Unreligious people can also be Jews. Unlike, say, Messianic Jews (believe in Christ), Humanistic Jews are still widely considered to be Jewish. There are also "Hinjews" - people who claim to be both Hindi and Jewish.

It is also sometimes a race - you can be considered Jewish through matrilineal descent. Since for some sects it's more about following ethnic tradition rather than law/ religion, this is also perfectly valid by some definitions.

It's also a group of people who follow a particular set of laws. While Jewish law is shared between all sects, the interpretations of it are often debated, and the degree to which it is followed - including nearly none - is also highly up to interpretation.

You can be one or more of these and still be considered Jewish, despite all the contradictions. It's really a bizarre (from an outside perspective) mix of race, religion, and creed. Especially so because Jews are people who follow one or more of those - but not necessarily all.

The one thing that really unifies most of these sects is that it is really hard to become Jewish if you are not born into it. It definitely requires talking with a rabbi, and usually knowing personally someone that is Jewish. Also, a fairly long period during which you have to follow Jewish laws before you can get inducted. It is sort of like an exclusive club of people that get circumcised and celebrate certain holidays.

So no, Judaism isn't just an opinion on god, or a race, but it is both and neither or one or the other.

I mostly got this information from Jewish people I know - but also checking online:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-jewish-denominations/amp/

 

[Mquz]

Th difference between fiction and reality is that reality doesn't go away when you stop believing in it. So this is a testable mechanism that can be applied to these things. If everyone stops believing in them, do they go away?

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These things (spiky gnomes) are really obscure. I don't think anyone believes in them or knows what they are - outside some scholars. They might be powered by people's belief in dragons, though. Magical power is definitely real and possibly supported by the white light - it's definitely powered by the soul, which mainly consists (I think) of White light. You could call the soul in this fic a White Elemental and not be too far off. In which case, a bunch of souls creating another soul artificially through belief might make sense.

 

[Queshire]

Even setting aside our meta-knowledge going straight to story book creatures come to life seems like a pretty big leap.

 

[Mquz]

Even setting aside our meta-knowledge going straight to story book creatures come to life seems like a pretty big leap.

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They have brains of their own - and can understand a language - the queen of fables didn't copy that in her earlier scene.

 

[Vaermina]

If the Queen of Fables could actually create living thinking beings I am pretty sure she would have created something more along the lines of naked men built like Greek statues instead of those things.

 

[Ardy]

Being Jewish is not just an opinion on God - some people will get insulted. For Humanistic Jews - it's more about following a code of laws and traditions and therefore being considered Jewish than it is about religious belief - they celebrate all their holidays without any mentions of God. Unreligious people can also be Jews. Unlike, say, Messianic Jews (believe in Christ), Humanistic Jews are still widely considered to be Jewish. There are also "Hinjews" - people who claim to be both Hindi and Jewish.

It is also sometimes a race - you can be considered Jewish through matrilineal descent. Since for some sects it's more about following ethnic tradition rather than law/ religion, this is also perfectly valid by some definitions.

It's also a group of people who follow a particular set of laws. While Jewish law is shared between all sects, the interpretations of it are often debated, and the degree to which it is followed - including nearly none - is also highly up to interpretation.

You can be one or more of these and still be considered Jewish, despite all the contradictions. It's really a bizarre (from an outside perspective) mix of race, religion, and creed. Especially so because Jews are people who follow one or more of those - but not necessarily all.

The one thing that really unifies most of these sects is that it is really hard to become Jewish if you are not born into it. It definitely requires talking with a rabbi, and usually knowing personally someone that is Jewish. Also, a fairly long period during which you have to follow Jewish laws before you can get inducted. It is sort of like an exclusive club of people that get circumcised and celebrate certain holidays.

So no, Judaism isn't just an opinion on god, or a race, but it is both and neither or one or the other.

I mostly got this information from Jewish people I know - but also checking online:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-jewish-denominations/amp/

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That's nice, but as a Jewish person who went to Jewish school, can read Hebrew, majored in history with a focus on Israel and ancient Israel, and has a social circle with people that range from Jewish-Atheists to actual Rabbis, I'm saying you're wrong. It is a belief system, and whether in your opinion that belief system is morally or actually correct. The belief system can vary as it's based on a series of books that cannot, if you're jewish, be changed as the guides to morality. Belief in those books are the only things that define Judiasm, they can be interpreted to support whatever the hell you want. Whether you believe Rashban or Rashbam, or your own made up interpretation, as long as you follow those books as the ultimate guide to morality you're Jewish. You can be Jewish if your mother is Jewish, or you can reinterpret that section of the Tanakh to say that you're not. There is no pope of Judaism, dude, it's your own damn opinion of the interpretation of the Tanakh.

 

[Mr Zoat]

11th January
17:38 GMT +2

"How about we start with a na-?"

"RAHHHHHHHEHHHHHHHHH!"

The individual currently pinned to the wall makes a spirited attempt to tear themself free, yanking back and forth against their bonds.

"With a name."

Their eyes focus on me, and open their beak-mouths to vomit forth a new wave of fiery breath… Which splashes harmlessly against my armoured faceplate. Still, that's going to make asking questions difficult. Hm.

"Zatanna, the fire breathing isn't part of the same spell that makes them invisible?"

"No, that's biological. Turning it off would probably kill them." She turns away. "Aqualad? Zatanna here."

I nod, and begin fabricating heat-resistant muzzles for all of them as I reach forward and physically force its mouth shut, holding the beak closed with my right gauntlet. As I do I watch the effect on my environmental shield. At least the binding charm is stopping whatever they were using to bypass my constructs. I'll need to attach them to the others as well.

"As you've probably noticed, you are pinned to a wall and unable to escape."

"RAHHHHHHHEHHHHHHHHH!"

"If you don't behave yourself, I'm afraid that it is very likely that you will spend the rest of your life muzzled and in prison. However, I would much rather negotiate a solution with your people which allows everyone to get what they want without further theft or bloodshed."

"RAHHHHHHHEHHHHHHHHH!"

Muzzle complete, I slide it around the mutant gnome's mouth and lock it in place. They immediately open as wide as they can, pushing against it. They can open up a little, but no chemical fire comes forth. Right, good.

"Look, I know perfectly well that you can understand me. You can't escape by force and you can't intimidate me. The only way for you to improve your position is to say something intelligent."

The gnome just glares at me. Okay, I tried.

"Inspector?" He looks around, mobile phone pressed to his left ear. "I'm going to suggest contacting the dangerous animal people as well." He nods. I've really got no idea whether or not Romania has a prison which can hold gnomes. But working that out isn't my j-.

"You will all burn!"

I turn back to our prisoner. "Ah! Words! Well done. Is there any particular reason we'll burn?"

"Because you'll be on fire!"

"And where is the fire coming from?"

The mutant's eyes swivel as it tries to assess its surroundings. Two non-overlapping fields of vision. It can't see anything directly in front of it. That suggests prey animal, whereas the teeth suggest predator. "From Mistress!"

"And what is your mistress?"

"Mistress is great dragon! She will burn all the lands of man!"

"Shit in the rain! And get the Defence Ministry as well." Inspector Gherea glares at our prisoners. "A fucking dragon, apparently. Yes. How the fuck would I know?"

"Does your mistress want something from the lands of man, or is destruction its own purpose?"

"Worship her! Fear her! Flee in terror and be eaten!"

"So she's hungry?"

That would make sense: a giant reptile would require a large amount of food which wouldn't be readily available in a region as heavily settled as Europe is now. No wild herds to prey on at all. But if she's intelligent, then we could probably negotiate an arrangement whereby she could buy meat. Or living animals, if she prefers. And if she's gone undisturbed for hundreds of years its not very likely that she's living anywhere anyone is using. I'm-.

No, no, getting too optimistic. This is going to turn into another big pointless fight, isn't it?

"I would like to bribe your mistress not to come to my town. Where should I take my offering?"

"Give it to me. Let us go. We will tell her the name of your town."

"It's called 'Westham'. One word. It's on the south coast of England. And I think I'll keep the rest here, just in case you decide to betray me. And in fact…"

I pull out a rune stone and hold it out towards Zatanna, who has just finished her talk with Kaldur. She smiles and nods. I then return my attention to the muzzle, making a show of checking the attachment. A few improvements to the material composition…

"Others like you will be able to melt this off, but it's far too strong for you to remove with brute force."

I press the stone and a simple radio transmitter into the front top of the mutant's beak, where… He? Can't see. Then another quick alteration to the material to make sure that it will remain in place. I give the assemblage a quick rattle, then step back, turn away and fly over to one of the smaller windows and open it. Zatanna waves her right hand and the bonds around that gnome mutant fade, dropping it to the floor. It glowers at us for a moment and then bolts for freedom.

Inspector Gherea walks over to stand besides me. "That was a tracking device, yes?"

"Yes." Ring?

Radio signal is being received.

"I'm a little nervous about letting that.. Gnome? Out in my city."

"The thefts have all been peaceful to date. This is-." Oh. "Ring, check for unexplained fires occurring on dates matching the thefts."

"Matches found."

"Narrow for matches with known magic users."

"No matches found. However, records on the residences of minor magic users are extremely limited."

Marvellous. I watch the gnome as it leaps from this building onto the next and then scurries out of sight. "I'm confident that it's going to report our actions to its mistress, if only to get backup."

"Invisible, fire breathing backup."

"Backup that would have existed anyway, that we can locate by following it."

"I'm not saying that it was the wrong call, but it's my city that goes up in flames if something goes wrong."

"Why do you think I gave it somewhere else to attack?"

"Westham is a place?"

"No. And hopefully looking for it will delay them." The gnome didn't appear to be moving all that fast… Dolmen Gates, natural ones. If it has access to them, it could reach its destination very quickly. Also, free Dolmen Gates, if they can be made compatible with the Atlantean version. Right. "Zatanna, what's the rest of the team doing?"

"Checking that the other thefts were by the same people. So far they all have been."

"Then we've got nothing to do until the police arrive or the gnome reaches its destination. Ms Vadim, do you have anything else on gnomes or dragons?"

 

[rkyeun]

Hahaha, we're going to have an orange lantern dragon.

 

[Bugly]

Hahaha, we're going to have an orange lantern dragon.

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We better. We already have a battle station and planet orange lantern. If we get a dragon then all we need is an undead lantern and we'll have the greenies beat.

 

[Mr Zoat]

possibly

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[w34v3r]

Isn't a dragon basically just a knock off orange lantern?

I.e. a greed driven doom generator?

 

[Mquz]

That's nice, but as a Jewish person who went to Jewish school, can read Hebrew, majored in history with a focus on Israel and ancient Israel, and has a social circle with people that range from Jewish-Atheists to actual Rabbis, I'm saying you're wrong. It is a belief system, and whether in your opinion that belief system is morally or actually correct. The belief system can vary as it's based on a series of books that cannot, if you're jewish, be changed as the guides to morality. However, the interpretation of those books is up to the person and their own research, whether you believe Rashban or Rashbam, or your own made up interpretation. You can be Jewish if your mother is Jewish, or you can reinterpret that section of the Tanakh to say that you're not. There is no pope of Judaism, dude, it's your own damn opinion of the interpretation of the Tanakh.

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Sort of my point. It is a belief system, but it's so varied that some people in it don't even believe in God. And those people are still considered semi-mainstream. It's not just a belief in god, and it is also an ethnicity - and therefore a race.

The further point (the start of the conversation) is someone can say. You don't believe in god. You are not Jewish, even if your mother was and believe they are right. To them it's a fact and nothing to take offense over. To the other person it's highly offensive, if they believe they are Jewish. However, the first person can still tolerate that second person - just think they are mistaken and therefore not be a bigot. Sort of what Zoat did.

Edit: nvm, looked over sequence of posts, and this is a logical tangent. Judaism is not just a race, but a belief system, and therefore bigotry applies in the definition provided.

 

[Ngamer11]

Hahaha, we're going to have an orange lantern dragon.

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I think I'd prefer it if he assimilated it.

"Nameless dragon, you belong to the Orange Lantern Corps."

Major improvement over Praexis Demons.

 

[RichardWhereat]

"You will all burn!"

I turn back to our prisoner. "Ah! Words! Well done. Is there any particular reason we'll burn?"

"Because you'll be on fire!"

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Well, that was hilarious.

Really don't like West Ham huh?

 

[Grimnar]

I think I'd prefer it if he assimilated it.

"Nameless dragon, you belong to the Orange Lantern Corps."

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*sniffles*

There's just so much beauty in the world.

 

[Ardy]

and it is also an ethnicity - and therefore a race.

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I don't think you know what ethnicity means. Judaism is all opinion based on the Tanakh, which does not make it an ethnicity. You can believe it is passed down from your parents, but that's still an opinion. Either do more research or accept you don't actually want to listen to your opposition. You're not an expert in Judaism because you googled it, and frankly I'm offended that you think you are.

 

[Mquz]

I think I'd prefer it if he assimilated it.

"Nameless dragon, you belong to the Orange Lantern Corps."

Major improvement over Praexis Demons.

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Something like the true names give you power through sympathetic magic rule might apply for dragons.

 

[Mquz]

I don't think you know what ethnicity means. Judaism all opinion based on the Tanakh, which does not make it an ethnicity. You can believe it is, but that's still an opinion. Either do more research or accept you don't actually want to listen to your opposition. You're not an expert in Judaism because you googled it, and frankly I'm offended that you think you are.

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Ok, I agree. Leave it at that. Ethnicity (from what I understand) is based on tradition. Being based on Tanakh definitely makes it one. Also makes bigotry apply. I am/ was misinterpreting race. Sorry.

 

[RichardWhereat]

You're not an expert in Judaism because you googled it, and frankly I'm offended that you think you are.

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I'm offended that you're offended. Being offended doesn't make you right. Let's leave it there.

 

[Mquz]

I'm offended that you're offended. Being offended doesn't make you right. Let's leave it there.

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He's right - this is something he could be considered an expert in. Just leave it.
Edit: Also, according to google: while the Jews are considered a race according to the US Supreme Court, this is considered offensive by many Jews. My own (apparently mistaken) opinion came originally from seeing it as an option on a standardized test.