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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Darko said:
So he's now wearing a costume that makes it looks like he has pants on, instead of it being more akin to a one piece suit?
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Mr Zoat said:
British pants, not American pants.
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Darko said:
Can you explain what this means, I don't exactly get the difference between British and American pants?
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'Pants' is something of a difference between British and American English. To an American, Pants are the long things you have as outerwear. To a Brit, those are Trousers. To the British, Pants are underwear, whether jockey shorts or boxer shorts, thong or jockstrap. What Americans might call Trunks.
Fun fact: the American superheroes' 'underwear on the outside' is a callback to the circus strongmen of the early twentieth century, who wore flesh-coloured tights (for the cold and for modesty) with a leotard or trunks over them to protect their modesty if said tights split during a feat of strength. Professional Wrestlers today still dress that way, thought they usually colour-coordinate.
 
So here's a fairly simple theory: what if at some point Sandy did revert to human form. He learned to take on human form and convinced himself that he was human. He gave himself amnesia and replaced his memories in order to ensure that he would remain believing he was human until he died so that he would keep his form and his new mind intact. Maybe used some of Sandman's dream tech or super villain tech to alter his memories to do this. A human named Matt Hagen that then got placed in a Lazarus Spring before he actually died: while he was appearing to be dead / his brainwashed mind was telling him to be dead.

That, or Matt Hagen is an offshoot of Sandy like that girl was an offshoot of him.

Them being linked somehow explains why the Lazarus spring worked the way it did, contrary to every other recorded usage: it genuinely healed him, and his form was already made of sand.
 
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Chojin Patriarch said:
'Pants' is something of a difference between British and American English. To an American, Pants are the long things you have as outerwear. To a Brit, those are Trousers. To the British, Pants are underwear, whether jockey shorts or boxer shorts, thong or jockstrap. What Americans might call Trunks.
Fun fact: the American superheroes' 'underwear on the outside' is a callback to the circus strongmen of the early twentieth century, who wore flesh-coloured tights (for the cold and for modesty) with a leotard or trunks over them to protect their modesty if said tights split during a feat of strength. Professional Wrestlers today still dress that way, thought they usually colour-coordinate.
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But he apparently got rid of the external underwear costume, yet the text says that he has been wearing that type of costume recently.

EDIT: Read the whole Mr Atom episode, and apparently Bats gave Supes some indestructible underwear.
 
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BR549 said:
Yesss...having a powerful geokinetic on a team of teen heroes...so very, very very great...isn't that right, Tara Markov?
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She is actually already around. The Renegade hired her to help dig out the Kryptonian battleship that Lex found. She disappeared afterwards, and I'm okay with that. If she ever appeared, Paul would take one look and know what to do, whether it be help her or expose her.
 
I'd assume the Nazi Earth has some kind of magic tradition. Their version of Wonder Woman is literally one of the Valkyries of myth, sent by Odin himself to aid them. And they conquered their Earth's Atlantis.

So I'm sure there's some Nazi wizards lurking about, using Atlantian or Asgardian magics.
 
ForeverShogo said:
I'd assume the Nazi Earth has some kind of magic tradition. Their version of Wonder Woman is literally one of the Valkyries of myth, sent by Odin himself to aid them. And they conquered their Earth's Atlantis.

So I'm sure there's some Nazi wizards lurking about, using Atlantian or Asgardian magics.
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They didn't rely on magic as much as their Earth 16 counterparts, because they had advanced tech, but they may have some magicians, seeing as they apparently studied what those Kryptonian martial arts do.

I don't think they conquered Atlantis in this story, though I could be wrong.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Underwaterman states that the only reason that the Atlanteans weren't exterminated was Hitler's belief that Aryans came from there.
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So they were conquered in your stories version of Nazi Earth.

I thought that in the comics they didn't conquer them because of their belief that they came from there, though it has been some time since I read that comic, so I could be misremembering.

Agent Orange said:
Is Black Manta a freedom fighter in that reality? With Kaldur naturally learning the family trade?
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David Hyde may not have even been born, or if he was he may have been killed when he was young.
 
Just watched the newest episode of Doom Patrol.

So Zoat is the Kipling in your story in love with Baphomet?

Because if he is then maybe the renegade can help him start a relationship with her, considering he's already started one with Luna.
 
Agent Orange said:
Fair enough. I bet Wotan is having a blast thou. There's even odds to him being part of Nazi League (or whatever JL analogue is called). There was a version of him around.
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He may have been a Norse sorcerer, but I don't think he's all that interested in the Nazis philosophy of racial purity.

Though he may just work for them for the resources they can bring him, assuming he actually works for them.
 
Darko said:
Just watched the newest episode of Doom Patrol.

So Zoat is the Kipling in your story in love with Baphomet?

Because if he is then maybe the renegade can help him start a relationship with her, considering he's already started one with Luna.
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I... Have no idea. I haven't read Doom Patrol and am only vaguely aware of the characters.
Agent Orange said:
Fair enough. I bet Wotan is having a blast thou. There's even odds to him being part of Nazi League (or whatever JL analogue is called). There was a version of him around.
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Not really. They don't want crazy supervillains around any more than non-Nazis do.
 
Mr Zoat said:
I... Have no idea. I haven't read Doom Patrol and am only vaguely aware of the characters.
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You can still watch the show.



If those Scant things exist on Earth 16 then that could be an interesting explanation on why people haven't adopted advanced tech already, the Scants are making them stupid.



Is there any chance of you including some part of Doom Patrol in a future story-line?

Would be really interesting to see OL try to get access to time travel using Dr Tyme.



He apparently worked with Dr Sivana once so it's not exactly all that difficult to imagine the two can meet.

552
 
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Mr Zoat said:
but there are some fairly significant differences between Hindu and Taoist magic practices
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I wonder if Wally's been looking into the alchemical tradition of eastern esotericism, I imagine he's been finding the practices of Neidan, ("Internal Alchemy"), and Cultivation very informative and useful!
 
Tzeentch said:
I wonder if Wally's been looking into the alchemical tradition of eastern esotericism, I imagine he's been finding the practices of Neidan, ("Internal Alchemy"), and Cultivation very informative and useful!
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I think he befriended that girl from the Indian superhero family that prays to a god for her superspeed.
 
Darko said:
How does it not work like that?

Read the fucking wiki, where it says that the ring allows matter transmutation, and also remember that the rings have been shown as being able to do things that make matter transmutation seem trivial by comparison, like time travel.

If you claim that the one who wrote that bit in the wiki was mistaken then provide proof of someone in he comics saying that power rings are incapable of matter alteration.
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That's not how the burden of proof works. If power rings are incapable of matter alteration, than it simply will never come up: It won't be specifically denied in the story. There are fare too many abilities that are never denied that you don't assume the ring gives.

For example: can the ring let someone teleport into the real world and talk to the author? No? Well, it's never specifically said to be incapable of it, so it must be.

Obviously, that's going a bit far, but the point still stands that the burden of proof is on showing that there's something that proves they CAN perform matter alteration, not that they can't, and simply saying that it can do stronger things doesn't necessarily mean everything below that is thus possible (for example, telepathy: telepathy is lower-tier than time travel, but you still need proof the ring could perform telepathy before saying it's canon it can do that).

For the record, I don't know whether the ring can or can't do that, I'm just pointing out the fallacy of trying to shift the burden of proof to "well, can you prove that ISN'T the case?"
 
Darko said:
The green lantern that healed Ivo.

And no your excuse that Ice's supposed magic powers altered the rings function don't hold up.
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Sorry, but you don't get to make that decision, logic and reasoning does.

And well, when there is no other example of a thing, even when them doing so would be the difference between life and death, logic dictates that there's something about the one example that was the exception.

And on a note, Ice had no medical background, and she didn't even "will" a thing to happen, she very specifically wished for it.

How does it not work like that?

Read the fucking wiki, where it says that the ring allows matter transmutation, and also remember that the rings have been shown as being able to do things that make matter transmutation seem trivial by comparison, like time travel.

If you claim that the one who wrote that bit in the wiki was mistaken then provide proof of someone in the comics saying that power rings are incapable of matter alteration.
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So basically you're admitting that your only source for your claims is the unsourced wikia articles.

Got it.

Here's the thing though, unsourced wikia articles are meaningless, I could go log in to my Wikia account and edit them to say whatever I wanted, but that wouldn't make it true.

And later comics basically made it so the ring creates a uniform for the ring bearer to wear, and doesn't disappear after they take off the ring.

And to end this little conversation, remember that this isn't the New Earth universe, even if Zoat adds elements of it into his story, this is Earth 16, where we weren't exactly shown all that much of what power rings can do, so Zoat can just decide to make the ones in Earth 16 be able to do the things you say they aren't capable of doing.
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No, they made it so the uniforms were stored in subspace in the early comics and then turned them into constructs in the later one's.

main-qimg-17e5200c0eff384c4bd52e07edb8477f


As to Zoat adding things to make his SI more powerful and other characters look bad for not using those obvious functions, we have already been over that, it's bad writing, and because of which deserves to be called out.

Mind you, it's not just bad writing because you should never add stuff and then have your SI character lecture canon characters about not using the writer added things. It's also bad writing because each new power you add locks out large swaths of potential challenges for your character.

And we are seeing the results of that now, with Paul basically just aimlessly coasting through the various storyline Zoat put's forward.


Aeess said:
Doesn't apply to Orange Lanterns.

Like just look at this for example

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This Orange Lantern explicitly had his ring created by Larfleeze but still got a uniform which remains even after Larfleeze calls his Ring back. In the same issue we see the same thing happening to four other former Oramge Lanterns.

So the lanterns obviously created them with their own rings, or are you claiming that Larfleeze hired a tailor to make uniforms for each of his assimilated Lanterns?
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You get a like for putting in the effort.

However construct type uniforms don't immediately dissolve upon ring removal.
 
Vaermina said:
Sorry, but you don't get to make that decision, logic and reasoning does.

And well, when there is no other example of a thing, even when them doing so would be the difference between life and death, logic dictates that there's something about the one example that was the exception.

And on a note, Ice had no medical background, and she didn't even "will" a thing to happen, she very specifically wished for it.
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Your logic is very flawed here.

Remember Barbara Gordon?

She got crippled in the comics and didn't get healed, despite having access to advanced human and alien tech that could heal her, as well the ability to contact powerful magicians.

The writers didn't have her use any of these methods for dramatic reasons.

This can logically dictate that the writers who continued writing about power rings decided to not bring up their healing abilities because it would be more dramatic, or they just forgot they could do those things.

That also tends to happen, since writers change and they may not add the abilities previous authors gave to something or someone, because they either didn't want to do it or forgot about it.

Yes Ice wished for it to happen, but can you prove that her magic abilities were responsible for it coming true?

Can you even prove that her magic allows her to do anything other than ice generation and control, and if they can that it allows for her wishes to come true?

Vaermina said:
So basically you're admitting that your only source for your claims is the unsourced wikia articles.

Got it.

Here's the thing though, unsourced wikia articles are meaningless, I could go log in to my Wikia account and edit them to say whatever I wanted, but that wouldn't make it true.
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Here's the the thing though, I, and a shit ton of other people on this site, are far, far, far more likely to trust a wiki article that may be wrong, than your extremely biased posts.

Most people can't help but let a bit of their bias get in their writing sometimes, but on the other hand a lot of those people actually try to control that part of themselves so they don't do it, even if they don't completely succeed.

From everything we've seen you post I can safely and confidently say that you are the type of person that let's their bias get into everything without trying to control it.

Vaermina said:
As to Zoat adding things to make his SI more powerful and other characters look bad for not using those obvious functions, we have already been over that, it's bad writing, and because of which deserves to be called out.

Mind you, it's not just bad writing because you should never add stuff and then have your SI character lecture canon characters about not using the writer added things. It's also bad writing because each new power you add locks out large swaths of potential challenges for your character.

And we are seeing the results of that now, with Paul basically just aimlessly coasting through the various storyline Zoat put's forward.
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What Zoat is doing isn't exactly unique.

Comic characters have often times not used their full abilities even when they knew about them.

He's also being faithful to the show, since a lot of the heroes, including the League, did a whole lot of stupid things in it.

Paragon has faced challenges in case you forgot all those powerful opponents he faced.

A lot of his challenges also weren't about fighting powerful opponents, but in things like advancing society and more social challenges, like the thing with Atlantis.

A whole lot of his challenges can't be solved with the overwhelming power he has at his disposal.

Also if he didn't get all these power ups then a lot of the threats he faced could have seriously hurt or even killed him.

We know that you like seeing every version suffer no matter what, but aside from Tangseid suffering, which most of us want, most of us really don't want to see the SI or most his alternates get stomped on by everyone that has some big power.

Also here's an interesting little idea.

Zoat can make the power rings in this story do whatever he wants and may use whatever source he wants, including the DC wiki, because we weren't exactly shown all that much of what power rings can do in YJ, so anything he writes about Earth 16 rings does not contradict any source you claim it goes against, since at this point there are practically a dozen different sources that can say things that contradict one another.

He can just add abilities from different sources, or even make up some, and they wouldn't go against the canon of YJ power rings, since there practically isn't any canon on YJ power rings.
 
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Darko said:
Zoat can make the power rings in this story do whatever he wants and may use whatever source he wants, including the DC wiki, because we weren't exactly shown all that much of what power rings can do in YJ, so anything he writes about Earth 16 rings does not contradict any source you claim it goes against, since at this point there are practically a dozen different sources that can say things that contradict one another.

He can just add abilities from different sources, or even make up some, and they wouldn't go against the canon of YJ power rings, since there practically isn't any canon on YJ power rings.
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While I agree with this, Zoat can get preachy at times, adding things in-universe that aren't directly stated or even implied in that specific canon. You can't get upset at someone for not taking a Fulfills All Your Needs and Desires pill if there isn't one in the canon you're talking about, but is one in another related work. You can't get upset at the league for not calling in lots of magical support that exists in the comics unless you can prove that said magical support ALSO exists in the canon you're talking about. That's not necessarily bad all the time, but there are plenty of examples of him writing a rationale solution to a problem that is unfair to say that they should have done because we just don't know if it existed.

I still enjoy the story despite that, but saying it's not a part of Zoat's writing is intentionally blinding yourself.
 
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