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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Oh, a cutscene fight! What. A. Shock. Shock I say! This is why you try to assimilate first instead of inexplicably waiting for the bullshit-tier miniboss to stand up and get ready (not that it would've worked because cutscene nerf).
 
Well fuck. This means that you can't call the Orange lantern entity either, sense ophirion counts as outside help.

I understand that whenever he's in a position of power he tends to de-escalate instead of doing awesome stuff, but I still find it frustrating that the only stories we have left are ones where he's basically the underdog despite being more prepared and better well armored than almost anyone else in the area.

It's one of those cases where if he was properly prepared the story would instantly end and no one would write it down I guess.
He's almost always prepared - this is a bad matchup....so, one could say, this is a Naval Battlecruiser v. Godzilla issue.

Naval Battlecruiser beats everything around it, in its weight-class, nearby on land, and can only be contested with specialized craft or items. NB vs most shit - win to NB

NB vs King of Monsters, amphibious, dexterous-in-water, outmassing it, and having a ranged attack...

Bad matchup.
 
Anyone else think that the Source could be unmaking that control rune? There's got to be some consequences to this setup that will work against Melmoth. So what is the weak link in Grundy magic that could be subverted with Paul's remaining tools?
 
Congratulations Mr Zoat.

You have reached the same point that many comic writers before you have of making your character so overpowered that to have engaging encounters requires you hit said character with the nerf bat.

On the up side, this is the most interesting Paragon's story has been in something like nine months.
 
5th May
03:09 GMT -5




No, the logic is sound. If he got hold of a New God corpse and dosed it with Sheeda blood… Or Columbian blood, that's how grundies exist in the first place. I didn't realise it could be introduced post-mortem and it didn't occur to me how long grundies had to ripen for-.
As long as whatever's in there doesn't come out looking like New 52's Earth-2 Solomon Grundy (in his finest Cenobite summer line fashion), it should be fine...

The room above wasn't created in the day since we gained Melmoth's attention. Someone built this a while ago. And the Columbians have been under low-intensity attack by Sheeda creatures for their entire history. Melmoth's thralls could have taken the occasional citizen or their blood, without it seeming remarkable. They could have introduced blood little by little for decades. Centuries. More than enough time, I'm sure.
So it's a long term project Swirly-Cheeks has rushed into completion. History, both real and fictional, has proven doing that shit usually doesn't pan out well. The times it has, it's because of Protagonist plot armour.

Still. Undead New God isn't exactly outside of my weight class, and that's assuming-.

I sent filaments everywhere in the room except the stirring spider web cocoon.
Checking for invisible watchers, ambushers and other ne'er-do-wells, i see.

No, nothing here I can feel. Grundies are controlled by sigils, binding them to the caster. There's no one here to brand this one. Melmoth might be able to predict its behaviour, but unless a sophont magic user appears here he can't control it.

A thin and pallid hand shoves itself free of the covering.
Unless Melmoth set things up so it'd be controlled as soon as it became active. Because of course he's going to be able to break the rules like that. Surprised OL didn't consider that.

Unbound grundies I did ask about, and Cyrus Gold's behaviour is apparently atypical. Usually they either lie in their graves or stagger towards light or magic. When confronted, they're not usually violent unless attacked, and then they usually only flail around and try to get away.

I run a quick check on my armour and confirm that the Columbians have evacuated. Then I form construct blades and cut through what's left of the webbing.
Getting it over with quick, then. Hope it doesn't bite you in the metaphorical ass.

The figure within has clearly seen better days. Their flesh hangs loose on their muscles-. Her flesh hangs look on her muscles. Her armoured cuirass is curious: steel plate and chain with New God style tron lines as part of the tabard and helmet. Her gaze is vacant, her skin the classic blue-white and what hair I can see is snow white in colour.

"In case you're wondering, I carved the control sigil into her skull."
Motherfucker. Hopefully not done while she was alive, but knowing him, almost certainly so.

Oh.

"gnHHHHHHHH!" I Wake!
Oh, it does not sound like she's in a good mood. I get the feeling she's going to be a lot more like Solomon Grundy than the locals are.

Skin tightens, flesh swells back into something approaching full vitality as she pulls herself free. Her armour likewise starts to take on the shimmering, vital appearance of the version that Canis and his family wear.

"I particularly enjoyed working on this one. Her father was the one who brought the Castle Revolving to my era. Whatever his Gods did to enhance him made him immune to my techniques, but his misery when I worked on the rest of his crew … That has kept me warm on many a cold evening. Aurakos? K-."
Oh, hell. Because of course that bit of DC ephemera turns out to be important here. Aurakles had kids, of course.

I deaden the air, preventing the verbal command from reaching her, or anyone else he might have tucked away.

"Ma'am?"
With any luck, she takes more after the smarty Grundy versions, rather than the rampaging ones. Hopefully, Melmoth can't transmit orders silently...

I run a construct cable backwards towards the stairs-. Still being jammed. I fabricate a material cable and begin playing it up the stairs.

"Ma'am? Can you understand me?"
Ah, when wireless communications fail, the old ways succeed.

She grabs a sword with the same 'New God meets Iron Age' design as her armour from the webbing next to her, and the tron lines become active as soon as it's in her hand.

Cable up, get me Canis.
"On the phone. Get him on the phone. I want him on the phone right now!"

Compliance.

"Orange Lantern to Canis, what happens when a New God is resurrected from the dead?"

"That cannot happen. If a New God has a God-Name, then their soul would be unified with the Source upon their death. There would be nothing to resurrect."
Oh, that's funny, because, you know, it's happening right now. Get down here. Hop to it. No arguing please.

"How about if they were only mostly dead? Or if their body was reanimated? I ask, because-."

"Because you are looking at some fresh horror of human ingenuity. I will come to you."
Yes, Canis, Humans are bullshit crazy, even the evil elf ones from the far distant future. Amazed you caught on so quick. I'm sure you can make a marvellous painting of it later.

"Get the Columbians out first." I turn my attention back to the-. To Aurakos. Daughter of Aurakles, presumably. "Ma'am, can you understand-"

There's a dim yellow glow under her helmet.
Craaaaap... That's never a good sign.

"-me?"

She makes eye contact with me, and seems considerably more focused than the other grundies I've encountered.
Oh, boy. Hold on to your arse, OL, because it's about to start hurting. A lot.

"You will die." Even the Odds.

Construct shield.
...New God bullshit! OL might well have to force himself to work out this whole Godspeech thing pronto to counter her.



Construct shield.
Performance issues, huh. Oh, boy, this is really going to sting.

My environmental shield goes out and… I'm fully aware of my aches and my armour switches back to 'manual'.

I deploy my right forearm's x-ionised blade as the Dead God lunges forward, turning aside her two-handed swing. In this armour I'm nothing like agile enough to dodge-. But I can be fast. Before she can recover I lunge, ramming my armour's bulk into her chest. She's knocked back slightly, and her sword is out of position as I punch with my left gauntlet. She's not any shorter than me but my head isn't particularly mobile like this-.
Because she's basically Hercules' daughter (or the pre-civilisation equivalent of Herc,) she is going to be a hell of a fighter. Even Power Armour might not cut it to equalise.

She sidesteps, proximity sensors guiding me as I blind parry and then trigger the armour's flight system, flying back-. Not flying back because that's not working either.

Oh this is bullshit!
Indeed. Now I guess this is how Grayven's opponents must feel when he pulls his Conquest Godspeech shit. Man, no wonder so many of them don't like him. :D

How to win a flipping sword duel? Firstly, given that while I have done some primitive weapon practice I don't have the drilled reactions of people who focus on it, ensure that I'm as accelerated as I can meaningfully be.

I throw myself into a forward vault as Aurakos gets behind me and slashes at my back.
Shouldn't have neglected the melee combat skill tree, huh, OL? But noo... :rolleyes: You wanted to max out the Orange Light mastery and Diplomancy trees instead. And of course the developers put shit like this in to punish those choices...

Oh, she's just this fast. Not Flash-fast or even Kid Flash-fast, but far faster than physical power can explain. Fast enough that I can't just out speed her. Upside down in mid air I can see her reacting, moving, stepping forwards to keep the distance between us as small as possible.

Taser? No, that's offline. Or rather, it registers as online but isn't actually doing anything when I trigger it. Blade in the other forearm? Doesn't deploy. I'm sure that if I had time and freedom I could hunt down whatever the core of this… Spell? Was bound to and shoot it.
Even the Odds. You're limited to her level of physicality, and one blade. And unfortunately, she's the better fighter.

Behind her I see Canis coming down the stairs behind her. And then stop.

"Lllllllll-"
Faster-than-human accellaration. Bullet-time, in other words. Great for fights, hard to have conversations with anyone not at the same speed.

I land on the wall and push off, catching and turning aside her sword again and hitting her full in the chest with my extremely heavy power armour. This time she goes flying and I switch back to normal speed.

"-antern, she is challenging you!"

"Yes?"
He kind of noticed that, but not what it means. She invoked a literal challenge, Warhammer-style. A fair fight, and OL doesn't do well in fair fights.

"You are bound together by the will of the Source!" Aurakos lands in a crouch, slides, and then locks her eyes on Canis. "You are balanced in power, by the Source's will!"

"Literally or metaphorically?"

"Yes!"
While you might say 'Mathematician's Answer', in this case, it's literally true. She's turned this into a story, and I suspect OL will follow the 'get beat down then make a comeback' trope in order to win...

"That's not funny, C-!"

"We are the manifestations of the Source! It has granted her this power! You cannot use powers or equipment she does not have, save to balance her! And the same applies to her!"
Or he could try to sidestep the fighting, try and Talk Her Down. But that control sigil Swirly Cheeks put on her might make that difficult.



And my rings are in my chest and my skull and my armour's systems are integrated.

Damn it.
Good luck, OL, you're going to need it. Cue the 'Lore in a Minute' sad-face

I have the feeling this is going to be the toughest fight OL has ever had up to this point. Let's hope he can live up to his Guile Hero role and work out how to win. Tomorrow will be very interesting for his detractors, methinks.


Some godspeech from the lady.
Oh.

"gnHHHHHHHH!" I Wake!
She makes eye contact with me, and seems considerably more focused than the other grundies I've encountered.

"You will die." Even the Odds.
 
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Magic is bullshit and has some explaining to do.

... Give the lady a ring and out-skill her?
He can't, because he stuck them inside his body so he wouldn't lose them if his arms get cut off.

I suspect the best move is to try and provoke her into invoking her divine resistance to throw off the control. I'm kind of surprised that someone who's being mind-controlled can do the whole triggering the Source to engage the dueling rules thing.

If he tried to use the rings to help his opponent by removing the sigil, would the rules still stop him?
 
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So it's a long term project Swirly-Cheeks has rushed into completion. History, both real and fictional, has proven doing that shit usually doesn't pan out well. The times it has, it's because of Protagonist plot armour.
If she really is a rush job, there might be a chance that Melmoth can't completely control her. Is it wrong that I want Paul to assimilate her after this is over? An undead New God could be a useful melee combatant for the more diplomatically inclined Paul. I also want him to use Construct Lanterns again, just like earlier in the story.
 
Ah yes. Metaphysical bullshit. Usually, the only way to overcome such bullshit is to use a greater metaphysical bullshit. While Paul has used some New God-like metaphysical bullshit before, I think he used rings to accomplish them? So either he learns to access some Orange Light Bullshit without his rings, or finds some other ways to get out.
 
As long as whatever's in there doesn't come out looking like New 52's Earth-2 Solomon Grundy (in his finest Cenobite summer line fashion), it should be fine...

To be honest I think that if the Sheeda did get their hands on Grundy, they would dress him like that.

Have you seen some of their clothing?

Oh, that's funny, because, you know, it's happening right now. Get down here. Hop to it. No arguing please.

Hmm, maybe Melmoth didn't really resurect her so much as he just reanimated her corpse and it still has access to some of her powers, while her soul is really gone.

Performance issues, huh.

Give him a break, not everyone can get it up when they first engage with a girl.

Indeed. Now I guess this is how Grayven's opponents must feel when he pulls his Conquest Godspeech shit. Man, no wonder so many of them don't like him. :D

Fortunately for renegades opponents, they're dead now, so they don't have to be frustrated by his god speech.

If she really is a rush job, there might be a chance that Melmoth can't completely control her. Is it wrong that I want Paul to assimilate her after this is over? An undead New God could be a useful melee combatant for the more diplomatically inclined Paul. I also want him to use Construct Lanterns again, just like earlier in the story.

He may also be able to free her from his control and she may join him.

This is assuming that she didn't really die, but that her soul lingered in her body and Melmoth just did this weird alteration thing, but she's still alive somehow.

New God soul bullshit.

Ah yes. Metaphysical bullshit. Usually, the only way to overcome such bullshit is to use a greater metaphysical bullshit. While Paul has used some New God-like metaphysical bullshit before, I think he used rings to accomplish them? So either he learns to access some Orange Light Bullshit without his rings, or finds some other ways to get out.

He may still be able to use the rings for metaphysical bullshit, seeing as it's supposed to be an even match, but he won't be able to use any constructs.
 
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He has two rings does he not? One in his head, one in his chest? He wants to give one of them to the lady and beat her at his own game right? The solution is obvious! Let her decapitate him (body is mostly superfluous at this point; the head ring will keep him conscious and floating) and then offer her a ring sticking out of his torso "to make things even". Now he just has to do his usual "while you slept the sleep of the dead I ringed; while you swung that primitive hunk of iron I ringed; etc." and win the day!
 
Ah yes. Metaphysical bullshit. Usually, the only way to overcome such bullshit is to use a greater metaphysical bullshit. While Paul has used some New God-like metaphysical bullshit before, I think he used rings to accomplish them? So either he learns to access some Orange Light Bullshit without his rings, or finds some other ways to get out.
Or he surrenders to her and then runs the moment his rings turn back on.
 
Ah yes. Metaphysical bullshit. Usually, the only way to overcome such bullshit is to use a greater metaphysical bullshit. While Paul has used some New God-like metaphysical bullshit before, I think he used rings to accomplish them? So either he learns to access some Orange Light Bullshit without his rings, or finds some other ways to get out.

He may still be able to use the rings for metaphysical bullshit, seeing as it's supposed to be an even match, but he won't be able to use any constructs.
Paul has purposefully used Godspeech once. Maybe he'll do so again here to save himself.
 
He has two rings does he not? One in his head, one in his chest? He wants to give one of them to the lady and beat her at his own game right? The solution is obvious! Let her decapitate him (body is mostly superfluous at this point; the head ring will keep him conscious and floating) and then offer her a ring sticking out of his torso "to make things even". Now he just has to do his usual "while you slept the sleep of the dead I ringed; while you swung that primitive hunk of iron I ringed; etc." and win the day!
I'm not so sure the ring is going to be able to do keep him conscious and floating. It seemed to me that everything to do with orange light has been shut down.
 
It seemed to me that everything to do with orange light has been shut down.

I don't think it 'shut down' as much as the Cutscene Effect is preventing it from doing anything "not fair" - this is a sword fight; he can't win this. He has to turn it into a ring fight. He already noted this 'equipment working normally except obviously not' issue. If the rings/orange light were really off/unavailable he would've dropped dead already - he has a ring shaped shrapnel in his brain and his chest!
 
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So, no dice on extracting the 2 rings from inside himself, throw one to the New God and keep the other and say: duel with my weapon of choice?
 
Ha ha, Grayven goes smash. Bet you wish you had turned yourself into a giant rock monster right now Paul?
 
The Zataras can do other things besides illusions in this story, they've been shown as doing them multiple times.

Paul also goes to the Atlanteans for magic advice due to the fact that they're a magically advanced civilisation.

They have hundreds of different specialists in various fields of magic, advanced knowledge of how magic works, magical equipment etc.

The Zataras may on average be more powerful casters than the Atlanteans, but that doesn't mean they are equally skilled in all fields of magic, or that they understand the theory behind magic, or that they have the magical equipment.

The Atlanteans also outnumber the Zataras.

From what Zatanna said during the - 14 episode her family may not be as into magic as their counterparts in Earth - 14.

So if Paul chose to just deal with them for his magical needs he would be able to deal with just three people, Zatanna, Giovanni, Zachary, compared to the thousands of Atlanteans.

The Zataras wouldn't have the time, knowledge or resources to deal with the various magical things OL has brought to the attention of the Atlanteans.

Zoat said that some Zataras can only do illusions, hence the entire conversation about how Zoat said some of the family have lesser magical abilities.

Zatara and Zatanna's logomancy is such that they literally know enough about magic that they have an infinite ability to create new spells on the fly by just saying what they want to happen backwards.

The only way one could understand magic better than that is to know enough about magic to have an infinite ability to create new spells on the fly with but a thought.

Which the Atlanteans not only do not have, they fall rather short of.

Kaldur states in Denial that his skin icons power his water-bearers. Atlantean Sorcery= No skin icon, no magic.

So to create a new spell in Atlantean Sorcery, one would first have to create a new skin icon. Then to get that spell cast, one needs to tattoo someone with it and then teach them how to use the skin icon.

Which is apparently neither an easy or fast process, since word of Greg is that Tempest is the most advanced student in the entire Conservatory of Sorcery, which is why he can call upon the power of the Tempest.

So no, YJ Atlantis's knowledge of magic falls thoroughly short of the Zatara's.

Good thing that YJ Atlantis is in fact a high tech society.
 
The problem isn't a bad matchup so much it's the fact that he allowed this fight to happen in the first place. Sadly every time Melmoth starts talking the cuscene effect engages.

Well yes, that's the difference between upper tier bosses and mid-bosses. The upper end peeps have the ability to counter the old bolt in the throat trick.

The fact that this is orange instead of red or yellow says volumes about Canis.

It also says a lot about Humans since we seem hellbent on keeping him entertained.
 
The Zataras can do other things besides illusions in this story, they've been shown as doing them multiple times.
Zoat said that some Zataras can only do illusions, hence the entire conversation about how Zoat said some of the family have lesser magical abilities.
For reference, in case you wanted a citation Darko, from Doppelgängered (part 7):
"Wait." She raises her eyebrows incredulously. "'Zatara Crime Family'?"

"Sure. Europe and North America's premier magic mafia. Is that not how it works on Earth Sixteen?"

"No, it's just me and Dad. The rest of the family don't do.. anything like that."

"Huh. Well, I suppose it wasn't all that likely everything would be mirrored. Here, it's your… Her, whole extended family. To varying degrees. Being able to say anything backwards is unusual. Usually comes with a restriction or two. But there are about two hundred or so people called 'Zatara' who can do it to some degree or other. The Don would be the fellah to talk to if you really want to ask about Family business."
 
Well yes, that's the difference between upper tier bosses and mid-bosses. The upper end peeps have the ability to counter the old bolt in the throat trick.

You know what drew me to this story in the first place, what made OL actually interesting in the beginning? Not the power ring. It was his tendency of averting the worst of superhero comic tropes. He always entered a fistfight with a gun, he Just Shot Them rather than letting them get ready, he prepared in advance, etc. These days he's gone native. He ignores inconvenient revelations, he barely uses storybreaking equipment he himself commisioned (and if he bothers justifying this to himself it is almost always nonsensical), most of his fights lately are of the cutscene kind where no amount of preparation matters... this stopped being an SI fic a loooong time ago and it is the worse for it.
 
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Zoat said that some Zataras can only do illusions, hence the entire conversation about how Zoat said some of the family have lesser magical abilities.

Zatara and Zatanna's logomancy is such that they literally know enough about magic that they have an infinite ability to create new spells on the fly by just saying what they want to happen backwards.

The only way one could understand magic better than that is to know enough about magic to have an infinite ability to create new spells on the fly with but a thought.

Which the Atlanteans not only do not have, they fall rather short of.

Kaldur states in Denial that his skin icons power his water-bearers. Atlantean Sorcery= No skin icon, no magic.

So to create a new spell in Atlantean Sorcery, one would first have to create a new skin icon. Then to get that spell cast, one needs to tattoo someone with it and then teach them how to use the skin icon.

Which is apparently neither an easy or fast process, since word of Greg is that Tempest is the most advanced student in the entire Conservatory of Sorcery, which is why he can call upon the power of the Tempest.

So no, YJ Atlantis's knowledge of magic falls thoroughly short of the Zatara's.

Good thing that YJ Atlantis is in fact a high tech society.

Ahhh.... Yeah no, just no.

The Zataras magic while powerful is probably not even that op, and the spells may be limited in what they can do.

The Zataras also don't have an unlimited understanding of magic, if they did a lot of their problems would have been solved.

The Zataras also may not posses the necessary knowledge, equipment or skill in some mystic matters that an Atlantean can have, even if their casting ability is higher.

The Atlantean are also a civilization that has been using magic for millenia in case you forgot.

And that thing about needing to apply a new tattoo for every single spell is just wrong.

The tattoos help channel magical energy, but that's about it.

The reason Kaldur typically just uses electricity and water in his fighting is because he didn't finish his education, not because the tattoos somehow limit him to just those two things.

They don't need to create a new tattoo for every single spell.

Maybe for some spells they do, but not for every single one since that would be just massively impractical.

So no, Atlantean outstrip the Zataras in terms of magical knowledge, even if the Zataras can cast more spells than them.

And while YJ Atlantean use tech, we typically saw them use their magic instead of their tech.

OL also went to them since aside from the fact they are more knowledgeable and better equipped than the Zataras, they are also more available than them.

Giovanni had the League, his job and his daughter taking up his time, so he didn't have the time to help Paul all that much.

Zatanna still didn't finish her education, and is still being educated.

Atlantean magic can also be used by more people and it probably isn't anchored to a bloodline, unlike the Zataras magic which is, so with Atlantean magic OL can advance the surface world more easily.
 

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