With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Z000]

so why did he get somekind of werewolf transformation

what does red Kryptonite even do ?

 

[Cuchulin]

Okay, I have some ideas for this:

One, maybe it's a universe where feminist movements and ideas happened earlier than in our universe, hence how these women were more likely to get these jobs so that they could become the heroines they are today.

Two, maybe they pulled a Sweet Polly Oliver and disguised themselves as men so that they could get the jobs they wanted or needed without society discriminating against them, meaning that they essentially lead a triple life where they had to juggle their civilian, superhero and crossdressing identities all at once? And before you say that this kind of disguise wouldn't fool anyone, remember that we're talking about a franchise where people are easily fooled by glasses, wigs and tiny masks that don't even cover half your face.

Three, maybe they all proved exceptionally brilliant or talented in their respective fields, to the point where men couldn't ignore them and made exceptions for them?

Also, remember that in a genderbent universe, both heroes AND villains are genderbent, so if a male hero becomes "more fragile", then by your logic, the same would go for most of his enemies too, since male supervillains (which comprise the majority of the supervillain population of DC) would all become female too, so it all evens out on that front.

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"Sweet Polly Oliver" was actually not exactly that rare historically or rather not as rare as one might think (It's hard to tell how often it, but we do know that it that it happened) there was a story I heard about an woman in the late to post medieval era who dressed as man and joined the military to spent years chasing down her husband. There are also stories of women dressing as men to become soldiers from pretty much every conflict the USA was involved in prior to the 20th century. Maybe a half dozen or maybe more women fought in the American Civil war while passing as men or rather boys.
Prior to WWI or so militaries generally didn't really care much who joined as long as they look more or less like they could pull their own weight, making it not too difficult for a woman to dress up in men's cloths and join the army or even "the navy" (See Anne Bonny and Mary Read).
That said the point of DC's Earth-11 is that it is basically a gender flipped version of the main DC Earth, best not to think about it too much about how that came to be or how exactly it is supposed to work.

 

[The Froggy Ninja]

And they had gods, which implies a reasonably solid Dream connection.

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On that subject, I wonder if Earth 33 was from a generally more Dream connected universe or just a version of Earth that maintained magical traditions more. The only alien magic traditions we know for sure were on the League of Shamans were Kryptonian and Maltusian in origin and both of those have magical traditions already, as does the other most common alien origin of mars.

 

[EgyptianDio]

so why did he get somekind of werewolf transformation

what does red Kryptonite even do ?

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As far as I have seen, it's a plot device for whatever the author writing it wants it to do. Till now Superman has been affected in many different ways by red kryptonite. Including:
-Turning into a dragon
-Turning evil
-Turning into a non-powered giant
-Amnesia
-Turning into a dwarf
-Turning into a lunatic
-Turning his head into that of an ant's
-etc

 

[Z000]

As far as I have seen, it's a plot device for whatever the author writing it wants it to do. Till now Superman has been affected in many different ways by red kryptonite. Including:
-Turning into a dragon
-Turning evil
-Turning into a non-powered giant
-Amnesia
-Turning into a dwarf
-Turning into a lunatic
-Turning his head into that of an ant's
-etc

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so the red stuff just induce a transformation of some kind ?

. . . wait a minutes, is that why the Superdog cartoon have all the wacky change to the dog when red kryptonite appear

god that memory just came back into my brain

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

8th August 2013
11:02 GMT

The former prisoner collapses to the floor, gasping for breath. In complete violation of good practice, Superman darts forward and offers him a hand up. "Are you alright?"

Lar-On looks up, blinking in confusion. "Jor-? Jor-El? Why did you-?"

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Boy, Clark really must resemble a youthful Jor-El. Which I'm pretty sure is canon even to the comics. Some artists basically just drew another Superman whenever they had to depict him. It's only really live-action where that isn't common...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

Superman's shaking his head. "I've been getting that a lot lately. I'm Kal-El. Jor-El was my father."

"'Was'? What-? What happened?" He looks around the interior of the Fortress. "Where am I?"

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I'm getting the feeling every Phantom Zone parolee is having quite the moment of shock when they find out their homeworld blew up...

Superman tells him. This is the ninth time we've had this conversation, and I suspect that we're going to have to have it with every single inmate. I suppose that one benefit to pre-apocalypse kryptonian culture is that they tend to have a stiff upper lip about it. And while Lar-On does the same thing, I see a little extra despair from him at the news. That's… Unusual. Most of the inmates have adapted to the Phantom Zone… Or at least we haven't met any who've been driven mad by it yet. I suppose the despair happened when they went in, and the idea that they're actually going to get out is a relief.

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So why is he so much more depressed by freedom? I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you if you ask.

But Lar-On looks like he's about to burst into tears.

Superman nods. "I'm sorry for your loss-."

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...Ah, right, his family wouldn't have been Zoned. And evidently he had strong feelings for them.

"There are no doctors at all?"

"Ah… No. I've got an infirmary with a neural imprint of my father to oversee things, but I'm afraid that…" He hesitates. "There are a few doctors in the Phantom Zone, but most of them aren't the sort of people I'd want working on me. What exactly is wrong with you?"

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Ah, good, just asking directly.

"J-Jor-El didn't leave a record?"

Kal-El turns to the closest holo-display. "Dad?"

Jor-El's face appears. "I'm afraid that this imprint was made before I began working with Lan-On, and his situation wasn't covered by any of the updates I made."

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Damn, that's annoying. Always keep backups up to date, kiddies!

"But on the bright side, we have a lot of extremely capable scientists here on Earth, and you'd be surprised what they can achieve when they set their minds to it."

Lan-On nods, pulling himself together. "I don't know if it's a disease, or a.. curse, but-"

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...'Curse'? Oh, this will be good...

Kal-El and I both frown, because kryptonians are not a superstitious people.

"-when I see a moon I start… Mutating. I turn into a violent monster!"

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My god, he's a lycanthrope? (And the pedant in me notes that term is kind of inaccurate, as 'lycan-' refers specifically to wolves, A more accurate term would be therianthrope. Especially since most such mythos only focus on mammals.)

"You have to see it? Because that sounds easy enough to work around."

"I… Only change when I see it, but when one of the moons is in the sky I'm.. drawn towards somewhere where I can see it. I can resist.. for a while, but in the end I can't not do it."

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Which moon? Krypton's moons specifically, or will any source of reflected sunlight do?

Ring, check the location of the moon relative to our current position?

Moon is visible from the surface exterior of Fortress of Solitude.

"Can you feel that call now?"

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Hmm... Actually letting it shine on him could be risky, if his transformed state has unusual powers, but it would be an effective test of the hypothesis.

"Ah…" He shakes his head. "No."

"Well, good news, it looks like alien moons don't affect you. Earth's moon is high in the sky right now."

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Let's not count your werechickens before they've gazed upon the moon, OL.

"Huh?"

Ring?

I feel the direction in my head and points my right forefinger up towards it. "Right there. It's entirely possible that you were only responding to Krypton's moons. But we'll take a look at you anyway." Hm. "Did you talk to Nam-Ek while you were in there?"

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Now, is it magical, or something else? A retrovirus or something, because Kryptonian bio-sciences were insanely good.

"A little, but my transformation isn't anything like his. And he did his research a long time ago. From what he told me, it was fairly primitive compared to what Jor-El was doing."

Kal-El looks at me. "Do you think he'll be safe on Earth?"

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Nam-Ek's seems to be a permanent hybrid state, for a start. And 'primitive' has a lot of significance when it comes to Kryptonian science.

"No idea. But I can only think of two things that cause radical shape changes in kryptonians; whatever Nam-Ek did to the Rondor and red kryptonite. Lar-On, did you ever come into contact with a glowing red rock?"

"In.. my entire life?"

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Oh-ho. That's a clever idea. Red K has all kinds of weird effects on Kryptonians.

"Just before the transformations started."

"I don't think so. How large a piece?"

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Significant. That timing would be critical.

"Any size, really."

"Not that I noticed? I was.. having a picnic with my-." He crumples again before pulling himself back together. "My wife. I didn't… I didn't notice anything like that."

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Hopefully she evaded him while transformed and hostile.

"Paul, did you ever see any red kryptonite?"

"Yes."

"When? I've only ever seen a few pieces, and I destroyed them."

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Naturally OL has some. Might even be possible to synthesise, though I doubt it could be done with Earth materials (despite what 'Superman III' claimed.)

"Kara's asteroid. I've actually got a few pieces in subspace storage, I just had more sense than to actually use them. Ah, Lar-On, I'm going to use my power ring to scan you in detail and see if there's any kryptonite radiation in you."

"O-okay?"

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It would have to have lasted some time. Red K's emissions are usually expended more quickly - usually in a day or so.

Scan, and…

"Yeah, there we are. Looks like you breathed in a few tiny red kryptonite fragments."

"H-how?"

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Damn, micro-dust particles? That's sting a bit. Then again, it they're microscopic-scale, he might not have noticed amongst the transformation.

"Well, Krypton didn't explode and then turn into kryptonite. It was a gradual, ongoing progress than accelerated the further it progressed. So there was plenty of the stuff around, just… Not on the surface. Jor-El?"

"I had a few samples, but they were all green. And I only met Lar-On after he began changing. As far as I know no other researchers were actively studying Krypton's interior."

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Much to Krypton's short-lived regret.

"The… Gold Volcano. Shal and I went to see it… Could that have been where I breathed it in?"

"Possibly. The speed at which red kryptonite works can vary quite a lot. How long before your first transformation did that happen?"

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Man, Krypton had some weird geology.

"The same day. A few hours… So I just… Breathed it in, and then..? How? How does a tiny flake of crystal do… That?"

"I have no idea. On the face of it, it makes no sense, and I haven't felt like performing horribly unethical experiments on my friends and colleagues to try and find out."

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Personally, it seems almost magical. I wonder if the crystals radiation somehow induces a lessening of conventional physics in favour of resonating with the Dream?

Superman nods. "What I don't understand is why you kept transforming. In the past, once the effect of a piece of red kryptonite wore off repeated exposure to it didn't affect me again."

"I'd guess that it made a change in his body as a one-off. It might even have worn off on its own eventually. Okay, hold still."

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...Or it's still present in his system, resonating with Kryptonian moonlight to trigger the change.

I extend an environmental shield around his body, locate the red kryptonite fragments and send them into subspace before bringing them out again on my right palm.

"There you go. That's what was messing you up."

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In an energy shield of course, since while Lar-On is immune to the effects of those shards now, Kal-El isn't.

"They're so.. small."

"It's amazing how annoying some small things can be. But on to other matters, here's what we've got planned…"

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A little more for OL's stockpile, eh?

Scary that a tiny amount of Kryptonite could stick in his body like that. He's fortunate it wasn't the killing Green K or the depowering Gold. Instead, he got the whimsically random Red kryptonite. I bet its radiation somehow has an effect related to the Dream rather than normal physics. What else could explain such weirdness?

---

On the topic of Earth-11, the Wiki entry notes that the Themysciran Amazons (The female ones, I guess) didn't retreat from the world, resulting in greater gender equality. How that causes nearly everything involving named characters to have nearly identical lives to their Earth-One counterparts except for gender is beyond me. The Source did it, i guess?

 

[Vaermina]

"No idea. But I can only think of two things that cause radical shape changes in kryptonians; whatever Nam-Ek did to the Rondor and red kryptonite. Lar-On, did you ever come into contact with a glowing red rock?"

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There was also Doomsday.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Ronians; whatever Nam-Ek did to the

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Species names don't have capital letters, past me.

On the topic of Earth-11, the Wiki entry notes that the Themysciran Amazons (The female ones, I guess) didn't retreat from the world, resulting in greater gender equality. How that causes nearly everything involving named characters to have nearly identical lives to their Earth-One counterparts except for gender is beyond me. The Source did it, i guess?

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I could tell you, but not for twenty years.

 

[AverusBlack]

I already did. Did you not read the genderbent Blue Lantern Paul Omake I posted on here right after Zoat posted his chapter last night?

Also, quick question: What shade of blue do you use to write your comments? I've been trying to find it, but I can't figure it out.

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It's just the light blue tile from the colour picker, I'm not using a specific code or anything

Edit: Oh and, I did see it, but I was referring to stuff written going forward. And the idea of a genderbent Paul is mildly amusing to me because I'm trans and wow is that ever a can of worms to open up. I don't expect I'll ever hear anything about it, but if you ever touch back on the gender-identity issue again (that bit about the HERO dial was both mildly amusing and aggravating in turns, but gave me the impression Zoat just doesn't know any trans people) then feel free to DM me about it, Zoat. I've been three different people in my life and self-identity issues have been my whole focus for almost ten years.

 

[xSieg]

There was also Doomsday.

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I think we haven't seen him yet. In any universe, actually, which is kind of remarkable.

 

[CrazyNoVa]

"Sweet Polly Oliver" was actually not exactly that rare historically or rather not as rare as one might think (It's hard to tell how often it, but we do know that it that it happened) there was a story I heard about an woman in the late to post medieval era who dressed as man and joined the military to spent years chasing down her husband. There are also stories of women dressing as men to become soldiers from pretty much every conflict the USA was involved in prior to the 20th century. Maybe a half dozen or maybe more women fought in the American Civil war while passing as men or rather boys.
Prior to WWI or so militaries generally didn't really care much who joined as long as they look more or less like they could pull their own weight, making it not too difficult for a woman to dress up in men's cloths and join the army or even "the navy" (See Anne Bonny and Mary Read).
That said the point of DC's Earth-11 is that it is basically a gender flipped version of the main DC Earth, best not to think about it too much about how that came to be or how exactly it is supposed to work.

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Yeah, exactly! And even if people have problems with the historical innacuracies, it's not like this is the first historically (or scientifically) innacurate Earth we've seen in this story, isn't it?

On the topic of Earth-11, the Wiki entry notes that the Themysciran Amazons (The female ones, I guess) didn't retreat from the world, resulting in greater gender equality. How that causes nearly everything involving named characters to have nearly identical lives to their Earth-One counterparts except for gender is beyond me. The Source did it, i guess?

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Maybe they just swap places with the Gargareans?

Also, that can't possibly be the only point of divergence. There's way too much stuff going on on Earth-11 for that to be the only deciding factor.

Species names don't have capital letters, past me.

I could tell you, but not for twenty years.

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Why twenty? Is this some kind of reference?

 

[boo600]

So... I've finally blipped through Young Justice. It had... some good stuff, if some... fairly inhuman dialogue for the purposes of exposition, at times. I remember Paul's early reactions, and thought that was part of the early series, but wow, the later seasons are actually worse.

But the power scaling is a bit out of whack, with superstrong people landing full-force Heaven Thunder Hammer punches on squishy normals and doing little to nothing. And the Reach plot is... very easily circumvented. I mean, the Warworld threw a wrench in the Reach-Light-Darkseid pile-up, but uhhhhh. I mean, Black Beetle tried to destroy the planet to hide the Reach's energy drink plot; in WTR, would that really be outside the Treaty, when hypnosis and subliminal conditioning are allowed? And if so, then why would the Reach try a plot that the show calls out as effective 'over generations' before solidifying control over Earth? And really, being mildly welcome - not in-charge - is enough to keep all Green Lanterns away from the Earth? I mean, the timeskip and Savage's plans are bad enough, but jgiduhfgslgom.

Still, it had some good character work, if rushed for the run-time. (I now understand how awful the 8-episode crunch streaming encourages is in new and enhanced ways; I also appreciate Worm more. Worm. For the downtime. How the fuck-)

 

[AverusBlack]

So... I've finally blipped through Young Justice. It had... some good stuff, if some... fairly inhuman dialogue for the purposes of exposition, at times. I remember Paul's early reactions, and thought that was part of the early series, but wow, the later seasons are actually worse.

But the power scaling is a bit out of whack, with superstrong people landing full-force Heaven Thunder Hammer punches on squishy normals and doing little to nothing. And the Reach plot is... very easily circumvented. I mean, the Warworld threw a wrench in the Reach-Light-Darkseid pile-up, but uhhhhh. I mean, Black Beetle tried to destroy the planet to hide the Reach's energy drink plot; in WTR, would that really be outside the Treaty, when hypnosis and subliminal conditioning are allowed? And if so, then why would the Reach try a plot that the show calls out as effective 'over generations' before solidifying control over Earth? And really, being mildly welcome - not in-charge - is enough to keep all Green Lanterns away from the Earth? I mean, the timeskip and Savage's plans are bad enough, but jgiduhfgslgom.

Still, it had some good character work, if rushed for the run-time. (I now understand how awful the 8-episode crunch streaming encourages is in new and enhanced ways; I also appreciate Worm more. Worm. For the downtime. How the fuck-)

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Wildbow is a beast is how. The dude is a writing machine.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Why twenty? Is this some kind of reference?

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The rule on this site against modern politics. The listed gap between 'modern' and 'historical' is twenty years. That's a lie of course, because why actually state the rules in the rules, but it's a reference to work with.

So... I've finally blipped through Young Justice. It had... some good stuff, if some... fairly inhuman dialogue for the purposes of exposition, at times. I remember Paul's early reactions, and thought that was part of the early series, but wow, the later seasons are actually worse.

But the power scaling is a bit out of whack, with superstrong people landing full-force Heaven Thunder Hammer punches on squishy normals and doing little to nothing. And the Reach plot is... very easily circumvented. I mean, the Warworld threw a wrench in the Reach-Light-Darkseid pile-up, but uhhhhh. I mean, Black Beetle tried to destroy the planet to hide the Reach's energy drink plot; in WTR, would that really be outside the Treaty, when hypnosis and subliminal conditioning are allowed? And if so, then why would the Reach try a plot that the show calls out as effective 'over generations' before solidifying control over Earth? And really, being mildly welcome - not in-charge - is enough to keep all Green Lanterns away from the Earth? I mean, the timeskip and Savage's plans are bad enough, but jgiduhfgslgom.

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I don't think he did it to cover up the drinks thing. He did it as a fuck you to the Light because he'd found out that they were actively working against the Reach. Treaty-wise the drinks were fine as it was LexCorp making and distributing them.

 

[Dur'id the Druid]

locate the red kryptonite fragments and send them into subspace before bringing them out again on my right palm.

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WHAT? Why are you pulling out a piece of dangerous kryptonite in a room full of kryptonians??

Also, doesn't pink kryptonite cause a major transformation?

 

[Mr Zoat]

WHAT? Why are you pulling out a piece of dangerous kryptonite in a room full of kryptonians??

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It's just the SI and Kal-El. Kal-El always wears an environmental shield when in costume these days, and Lar-On had already been affected.

Also, doesn't pink kryptonite cause a major transformation?

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It either makes you gay (its one appearence in the comics, probably intended as a joke) or changes your sex (animated series).

 

[CrazyNoVa]

The rule on this site against modern politics. The listed gap between 'modern' and 'historical' is twenty years. That's a lie of course, because why actually state the rules in the rules, but it's a reference to work with.

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Oh, right. I forgot. Now that you mention it, I recall reading about it when I first read the rules, but that was a while ago.

I don't think he did it to cover up the drinks thing. He did it as a fuck you to the Light because he'd found out that they were actively working against the Reach. Treaty-wise the drinks were fine as it was LexCorp making and distributing them

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Honestly, I'm surprised that The Reach didn't just nuke the light into oblivion instead of Black Beetle trying to take care of them by himself.

It either makes you gay (its one appearence in the comics, probably intended as a joke) or changes your sex (animated series).

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Oh yeah, didn't we have a discussion on it a while back?

Also, are you basically saying is that if we exposed Paul to the gender-changing variant, we might finally get to see Anna in action?

Come to think of it, what would the sexuality-altering variant even do to Paul? Paul is bisexual, so would he become AroAce?

 

[AverusBlack]

Also, are you basically saying is that if we exposed Paul to the gender-changing variant, we might finally get to see Anna in action?

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...? Why would pink kryptonite work on Paul? He's not kryptonian.

 

[BartlettMagic]

There was also Doomsday.

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i know Doomsday was the product of multiple forced mutations and cloning and iterations to continuously improve, but i didn't realize it was Red Kryptonite that was used. as a matter of fact, i just realized i don't even know what species Doomsday was when the experiments first started. was he a Kryptonian, an animal, something else?

I think we haven't seen him yet. In any universe, actually, which is kind of remarkable.

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closest we've gotten was in an alternate universe, not sure which one, where a child-like pseudo Doomsday was part of a team that was sent against... Grayven i think? i dunno, it's been a while

 

[Steelplaza]

Scary that a tiny amount of Kryptonite could stick in his body like that. He's fortunate it wasn't the killing Green K or the depowering Gold.

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I mean, you say fortunate. The implication (to me) is he turned into a monster and killed his wife. He might well have preferred the other two.

 

[boo600]

The rule on this site against modern politics. The listed gap between 'modern' and 'historical' is twenty years. That's a lie of course, because why actually state the rules in the rules, but it's a reference to work with.

I don't think he did it to cover up the drinks thing. He did it as a fuck you to the Light because he'd found out that they were actively working against the Reach. Treaty-wise the drinks were fine as it was LexCorp making and distributing them.

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If that's how the WTR version goes, that makes more sense. Even without the Reach being competent in show (which they don't need to be; I was shocked when they didn't even use footage of Arsenal blowing up the drink factory as evidence of League hostility/child soldier teams), or explicitly having the size of their empire stated… well, the show version is kind of a mess.

Quoth the wiki:
From the Reach flagship, the scientist and Black Beetle watched a news report stating that the United Nations had voted to rescind the Reach's invitation to stay on Earth. Beetle said they would leave. When the scientist asked about leaving behind evidence of their violations of the Reach-Guardian treaty, Beetle assured her that wouldn't be a problem; they were going to destroy Earth first.[5]​

Apparently they had treaty violations. Seems dumb, given that they didn't know they'd be sacrificing their fleet; just keep playing the public relations game until the League is confirmed guilty and locked away. For fucks sake; the public switched back to them the moment Superman actually showed up. You predicted that would happen. How did you not believe the Light would betray you? What the fuck-​

 

[Zig]

Yes it would, because they're still weaker than men. A super-powered woman doing it doesn't suddenly mean that the bone or muscle density of normal women increases. Similarly, women are still taking time out to have babies when men aren't. Go on YouTube and watch what happens when women's professional sport teams go up against old men or teenaged boys. It doesn't work due to biological differences. Those differences inform social trends. Social trends aren't an arbitrary coin-flip.

Take Alan Scott for example. He found his lantern while working as a railway engineer. How many female railway engineers were there in the 1920s? Somewhere around zero. Jay Garrick? There were more female chemists than railway engineers, still a tiny percentage, but more than zero. Wildcat? Female professional boxing in the 1920s? Pretty sure that wasn't a thing. Hourman? Chemist, so again plausible. The Hawks? A male alien would probably have had an easier time of it, so that's fine but it doesn't really change much. Starman? Female physicist, sure, again, lower percentage, but possible.

Now consider their chance of survival when they try doing the same things their male alter-egos did while being weaker and more fragile. Consider that Prince Dane of Elysium has about twice the muscle mass that Princess Diana does. Now imagine that in reverse, and they don't have super strength or toughness, so regular men can hurt them.

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What if the changes that resulted in genderbent superheroes go all the way back and genderbend everything including muscle mass and you're on that forum asking "how many male railway engineers were there in the 1920s?"

 

[Mr Zoat]

What if the changes that resulted in genderbent superheroes go all the way back and genderbend everything including muscle mass and you're on that forum asking "how many male railway engineers were there in the 1920s?"

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Then you're just calling men women and women men.

 

[Ardy]

Then you're just calling men women and women men.

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Zoat, please don't get banned from another site. Let's just drop this.

 

[CrazyNoVa]

...? Why would pink kryptonite work on Paul? He's not kryptonian.

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So? There's many types of kryptonite that can work on humans, plants or animals. And it was never established that Pink only works on Kryptonians. Even then, plain old kryptonite can sometimes have weird effects on humans too.

The most notable variants that can affect non-Kryptonians that I can think of are Platinum, Slow, Bizarro Red, Orange and White kryptonite.

Zoat, please don't get banned from another site. Let's just drop this.

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For the record, I do NOT want Zoat to get banned because of that Omake I wrote about 'Anna'. I just wrote it to poke fun at his habit of creating endless variants of himself, because I figured: 'hey, if he's gonna keep making different versions of himself across the multiverse, then it's only a matter of time before we see a gender-swapped SI'. It was meant in good fun and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Darko]

Honestly, I'm surprised that The Reach didn't just nuke the light into oblivion instead of Black Beetle trying to take care of them by himself.

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They kinda did that in the future Impulse came from.

 

[CrazyNoVa]

They kinda did that in the future Impulse came from.

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I meant at the start.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Zoat, please don't get banned from another site. Let's just drop this.

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The 1920's were not within the last 20 years. That doesn't mean that a moderator won't rule that they were, but it means that we'll get a warning before punishments get handed out.