With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Signaller]

So is the memory recovery automatic, if/when there's a resolution?

What happens to one of the Greek gods if they get killed in avatar form - do they go to Hades or do they just dissolve? Who is keeping track of Persephone?

Am I suppose to forget permanently?"

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supposed

 

[Wivk]

For example: Catholics don't recognize Mormons as Christians

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If the Catholics were in any position to judge there wouldn't have ever been Protestants. Their practice of praying to dead mortals that cannot hear or help is every bit as blasphemous as any of the wacky shit Mormons get up to.

 

[Clell65619]

For example: Catholics don't recognize Mormons as Christians

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For that matter, more than a few Baptist sects (including the one my mother was neck-deep in) don't recognize Catholics as Christians.

 

[Darko]

"Ah. You understand that if you aren't able to make amends, you will be punished once you arrive here." His eyes drift to me for a moment, before returning to her. "Though if your marriage to Pavlos lasts any time, I will take that into account on the credit side of the balance

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Ha!

It's really not, its mostly just flavors of buddhism.

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I don't think Jade would mesh that well with Buddhism.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Interesting that Hades didn't drag similar answers out of someone else already. Presumably most of his underlings would give the same "You ordered me to not tell you who ordered me to keep quiet about your memory loss" answers as Paul. Did he discover it and just assume (correctly as it happens but nonetheless) that Paul had something to do with it?

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At this point the entire Hellenic pantheon would assume that shenanigans are the SI's fault. Hades wouldn't hassle an underling when he can hassle the person actually responsible. If he hadn't been responsible, Hades would have asked him to investigate.

So is the memory recovery automatic, if/when there's a resolution?

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No, they have to dose him with something else.

What happens to one of the Greek gods if they get killed in avatar form - do they go to Hades or do they just dissolve?

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Depends on how killed they get-. Wait, do you mean Erebos? If you mean Erebos, then no.

Who is keeping track of Persephone?

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Her mother and handmaidens.

supposed

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Darko]

What happens to one of the Greek gods if they get killed in avatar form - do they go to Hades or do they just dissolve

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I think the SI once mentioned that if a god is killed in avatar form then their greater self will still be intact, but there are ways that the greater self can be killed if the avatar is killed.

 

[Jankl]

I think the SI once mentioned that if a god is killed in avatar form then their greater self will still be intact, but there are ways that the greater self can be killed if the avatar is killed.

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So if say Eris is killed in Earth by let's say a very big bomb. Her greater self would be okay? What even is their greater self? I thought Greek gods could go to Earth but that they would be weaker there depending on how much worship they get.

 

[Darko]

So if say Eris is killed in Earth by let's say a very big bomb. Her greater self would be okay? What even is their greater self? I thought Greek gods could go to Earth but that they would be weaker there depending on how much worship they get.

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According to the metaphysics that Zoat established, gods that emerge from the Dreaming need prayer to survive, but the Olympians, and some other pantheons, can utilize Titans as a power source.

The Titans are apparently so connected to human psychology and mentalities, that even if they're not worshipped, they still have power, so the Olympians use that to sustain themselves.

Their lack of worshippers has at best only mildly weakened them, but the area in which it has impacted them is in the fact that it's more difficult to actually use their power in the material universe.

Things that were once easy will now require actual effort, but they can still be accomplished.

Think of it like a person only being able to do something by putting their hand through an almost closed door without being able to fully open the door.

The person is physically strong, but they can't open the door.

Gods in this setting can create avatars in order to interact with being in the material universe, but these avatars will be weaker than the greater whole, and the likes of a powerful archmage or metahuman could rival or surpass them in that area.

They can manifest their full power in the material universe, but that would require rituals.

 

[Neruz]

What you're not mentioning here is that most of the folk religions are just alternate flavors of buddhism.

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No, no they are not. They often bring together Buddhist elements, but the worship of the local land gods or "thần" and the shamanism of Đạo Mẫu is very much not just an alternate flavor of Buddhism.

You are probably thinking of Cao Đài, which combines worship of the thần with Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism, as well as elements of Catholicism, Spiritism and Theosophy. But calling such a widely syncretic religion "an alternate flavor of Buddhism" is absurd, and is like trying to say that a cake is really just an alternate flavor of flour.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

If you know "I've agreed to erase my memory so that I can properly court/be courted", that is going to make the entire thing utterly pointless, because if you're aware of it then you're aware there was something to erase that needed to be erased for the thing you want to have happen to happen.

They probably didn't think about what would happen if Hades started poking around in the temporarily-altered records because it never occured to anyone that he would have any reason to, say, look up Melinoë's birth records.

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Or he bothers to go crack a mortal book on events and reads his own mythology, and finds out he's married and how.

 

[Darko]

Or he bothers to go crack a mortal book on events and reads his own mythology, and finds out he's married and how.

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He might not believe that.

What mortals think happened and what actually happened could be very, very different.

Myths have a habit of changing.

 

[McGraww]

If you know "I've agreed to erase my memory so that I can properly court/be courted", that is going to make the entire thing utterly pointless, because if you're aware of it then you're aware there was something to erase that needed to be erased for the thing you want to have happen to happen.

They probably didn't think about what would happen if Hades started poking around in the temporarily-altered records because it never occured to anyone that he would have any reason to, say, look up Melinoë's birth records.

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Telling them why they agreed to by mind wiped would probably mess up the experiment, but they probably should have, idk, had Hades write himself a letter, sealed with his godly power, in case he does ever get curious.

The problem is that Hades relationship with Persephone has multiple butterflies. Multiple children (he could've gotten curious about any of them) are just the first failure point. There are going to be other discrepancies between "real history" and "history if Hades and Persephone aren't married yet" (AKA the version of events Hades is experiencing post-mind wipe).

 

[Ardy]

I'm still curious about the school Paul's going to, apparently.

It could be less bad than Shayera implied tho, like Batman could officially request the OLC/NEMO open a school on earth, with reconstruction being the focus of the training and earth's destroyed society as the practice

 

[Mr Zoat]

According to the metaphysics that Zoat established, gods that emerge from the Dreaming need prayer to survive, but the Olympians, and some other pantheons, can utilize Titans as a power source.

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That is not at all what I did. I said repeatedly that they didn't need worship to survive, just to interact easily with the world. Anyone can use a titan as a power source, the Olympians just aren't sharing.

 

[Jankl]

That is not at all what I did. I said repeatedly that they didn't need worship to survive, just to interact easily with the world. Anyone can use a titan as a power source, the Olympians just aren't sharing.

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Thanks for the info Mr Zoat. I assume the rest of what he said is correct?

 

[Mr Zoat]

Thanks for the info Mr Zoat. I assume the rest of what he said is correct?

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Approximately.

 

[Darko]

That is not at all what I did. I said repeatedly that they didn't need worship to survive, just to interact easily with the world. Anyone can use a titan as a power source, the Olympians just aren't sharing.

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But there have been multiple instances where gods have been stated to fade, like in Otherworld, Bastet telling Paul and his traveling companions that Teth's actions have given her power back to repair her city, that faded travel god whose blood was bought in that magical market etc.

The Olympians might be work shy, but they don't have the same need to take advantage of their brief moment of fame to secure their metaphysiques and make themselves into something that Johnny-come-latelies do.

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"Even the Dream Lord could not move an entire nation into his realm without leaving echoes. The Sumerian gods use that connection to sustain themselves, and they are not above leasing it for the use of others when if profits them."

"Why do they need to do that?"

"Our spheres decay without something to bind us to the material world. Or if we can use titanic levels of power to sustain them. I don't have that power, and neither do they."

So… Why..?

"Is it the Cornwalls? Are they what keeps Otherworld alive?"

"No. That helps, but it isn't enough power. Likewise with the small groups of people who still worship me. We are sustained by a great piece of-"

"King Kon-Sten-Tyn."

"-enchantment. Yes." He flashes me an inquisitive glance. "How do you know of it?"

"I'm friends with his current heir. Who I can only assume is descended from a daughter. He did something to corrupt the establishment of the Christian religion in England, didn't he?"

"Yes. Basically. It was more to ensure that they could not forget about what came before than anything direct, and the ley line network provides us power as well, but without his work we would probably have faded by now

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"Bubastis is a decaying realm. All the glory it once held is reduced to ruins and vague traces of power. And not all of its people like being dead."

Kon and I exchange a glance.

"So… When was the last time you were there?"

"Some time ago. It's hard to keep track here."

"And how much worship would a place like that need in order to regain something of itself?"

"This is like the time that Graham explained what trains are. Has something happened that would have revitalised Bubastis?"

I nod. "Teth Adom returned to life. He rules modern Kahndaq, and he openly worships its old pantheon. I wouldn't say… That the people have abandoned Islam, but… The old religion is… On their minds more than it used to be

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"I am glad to see that you're well. I wasn't sure exactly what effect restoring Adom would have on the domain of the Kahndaqi gods, but it looks like a positive one."

"It has been." She looks out towards the rest of the city. "We have not quite been fully restored as yet, but as more people reach out to their older gods, that will come in time

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skilled magician would could manage the connection?"

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"who could"

 

[Silveraith]

Thanks to Darko's quotes above I've now realised that in real life it's been four years since Hades and Persephone drank water from the Lethe. In-story though it's only been 11 months.

 

[Mr Zoat]

"who could"

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[ziggrrauglurr]

LOL the exact opposite. They want him to do something that's going to require a time investment on his part and have been working out the details before they take it to Paul to get him to sign on.

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Absolutely, he is Mr. Practical solutions guy. He already "schooled" the whole JL when he finished his probation.

They are giving him a curriculum, a list of students, a location, some teachers and the very insistent request that he creates a *SuperHeroHigh*

 

[Mr Zoat]

8th June 2284
10:00 GMT -7

Anton Flynn looks around as we march towards what I suspect was once Brownsmead's town hall, now remodelled as a… I was going to say 'pirate queen', but I suppose that she was really more a pirate baroness. A pirate baroness's manor. Nervous looking locals lurk here and there, weapons in hand but definitely not pointing at us.

"Nice place."

"Huah!" Sir Griffin scoffs loudly. "Tis a veritable hive of scum and villainy."

"Now, sure, but plenty of places were like that until they got their arms twisted." He smiles at me. "Isn't that right, Ambassador?"

I nod noncommittally. "Civilisation is a civilising influence."

We follow a bend in the road and I get a clear view of the sea, where I can just about make out the N.C.R. Northern Fleet. 16 inch naval cannons aren't actually great weapons for attacking places like this, but they'll turn whatever they manage to hit into gravel and sawdust.

"My point is-" Anton points towards where we can just about make out the docks where we can see both wooden ships and metal ships… Either being built new or being repaired. "-that this place could be a new centre of the shipping industry. They've already got the skills and the facilities-." He looks at Sergeant Matthew Willas. "Do they have a cannery?"

"How the-? I dunno."

Anton wiggles his right hand, dismissing it as a concern. "We'll build them a cannery, ship fish south down the coast without having to complete with Shi fishermen. Or east, once the roads are repaired. Your people eat fish, Sir Griffin?"

"Fish have not been a major part of our diet, but that is because we have no access to the sea. Communities close to rivers and lakes likely do."

"Well, we'll soon fix that."

Sir Griffin nods, then his eyes widen and his right hand jumps to the grip of his sword. I turn to see what he's-.

I grab his wrist as I see the slave pens. It looks like they don't have enough explosive collars to give one to everyone, so mostly leave them chained up when they don't have a job for them.

"Unhand me, sir, that I might deal with these godless savages."

"Let go of your sword. Saving them is why we're bothering to negotiate. If you charge in now most of them will get slaughtered."

He jerks out of my grip, but releases his sword with an angry snort.

There's a group loitering around the front doors to the manor. From the different emblems and the way they're arranged in separate clusters, I'm going to assume that they're representatives of the more significant pirate flotillas. Heavily armed members of Captain Storm's own crew are guarding the entrance, and keeping an eye on the crowd.

Sir Griffin moves to the van as his fellow knights move to the flanks of our party. I reach out mentally, but I don't feel any specific hostility. They're not happy about what us being here represents, but they didn't much like the Immortal either. They'll hear Captain Storm out at least, though she's going to have a devil of a time keeping them in order.

**[I reach out, towards the patterns in movement across the town…]**

Ah, of course. Never let a good crisis go to waste.

We're escorted inside without issue, through corridors decorated with nautical memorabilia and what I'm going to assume are objects of significance. No glass cases; glass is far too expensive for something like that. And then the doors are thrown open to what I suspect used to be the community hall, and we're led inside. Captain Storm is on a chair atop a raised platform, trusted guards armed with machine guns, super sledges and grenade bandoleers both standing guard around her and lining the walls. Off to our right-.

I **[feel Sir Griffin's surge of anger]** at the sight of slaves. Matthew just looks them over and then nods to one, who nods back.

"Alright, landlubbers." Captain Storm nods insolently at us. "What'd yah want?"

I take a step forwards. "Your surrender."

"I take it the Immortal's not coming back, then?"

"That seems unlikely."

"Dead?"

"No. But he and his surviving soldiers have fled to Siberia. Forces are moving up from the south and down from the north to eliminate his remaining faithful and establish a transitional authority."

"What's that comin' outtah yer mouth? 'Transitional authory-'." She looks around. "Get a load of this guy."

The peanut gallery snorts or chuckles as they feel appropriate.

"Where are you from?"

"England. Home of civilisation." She raises her eyebrows. "But let's get down to it, shall we?"

"I'll listen."

"You've seen the Californian naval vessels off the coast? There's more where that came from, and there are rather large armies heading slowly this way. You'll want us to have come to terms by the time they get here."

"What are you offering?"

"The age of piracy is over. You can fish, you can become actually legitimate merchants or you can apply to join what is provisionally being called the Washington State Coastguard or you can get lost. You will release all of your slaves and provision them until such time as we can sort something else out. If you have any strategic or fission weapons, they're to be handed over at once."

"And what do we get?"

"A chance to rejoin civilisation. Access to trade all down the pacific coast. Work, because I assure you there will be legitimate work while our friends and allies secure the region. And -not least- you avoid being obliterated."

"And Port Maw?"

"Will remain a port and trading hub." She inclines her head slightly. "If you have something specific to ask-?"

"Who will rule it?"

"In the short term, the most cooperative local potentate. In the longer term, if something isn't broken you don't fix it. We have no specific need or desire to remove you." There's a breathing out, a slight relaxing from the guards and from the slaves as the prospect of immediate violence recedes. "And while I do not guarantee that you will remain in post indefinitely, there will be plenty of opportunities for someone like you to advance themselves in either the state government or private industry."

"That's it? No tribute? No shipping magnates wanting revenge against us?"

"Tribute? Well, if you could let us walk away with any slaves you have who were members of the Brotherhood of Steel or the Wardens of the White, that would be helpful. You can pay us by saving us money. As for shipping magnates… I hope I don't need to describe in detail what happens to anyone who acts up after you've accepted this very generous offer?"

"I can work it out."

I nod. "I noticed. You've got people with line of sight to captains you think-" Her eyes widen slightly, but she clamps down with barely any outward sign. "-aren't going to cooperate. Why don't you tell them to take their shots, while I go out to the crowd outside and give them the good news?"

 

[Lazurman]

OL's penchant for supervillain wrangling seems to have carried over quite well to being a wasteland negotiator.

 

[RichardWhereat]

"Where are you from?"

"England. Home of civilisation."

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And home of people who can play football without cheating, because they're actually good at it.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

8th June 2284
10:00 GMT -7

Anton Flynn looks around as we march towards what I suspect was once Brownsmead's town hall, now remodelled as a… I was going to say 'pirate queen', but I suppose that she was really more a pirate baroness. A pirate baroness's manor. Nervous looking locals lurk here and there, weapons in hand but definitely not pointing at us.

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Ah, seeing to any remaining parties that might still feel loyalty towards the Immortal's leadership. I expect some of the sailors here proved a useful resource in transporting the old soldiers across the Bering strait...

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

"Nice place."

"Huah!" Sir Griffin scoffs loudly. "Tis a veritable hive of scum and villainy."

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Thank you, Obi-Wan. Amusing that he says that in a party with someone technically named 'Sky Walker'.

"Now, sure, but plenty of places were like that until they got their arms twisted." He smiles at me. "Isn't that right, Ambassador?"

I nod noncommittally. "Civilisation is a civilising influence."

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Even if it can sometimes be destabilising before it stabilises.

We follow a bend in the road and I get a clear view of the sea, where I can just about make out the N.C.R. Northern Fleet. 16 inch naval cannons aren't actually great weapons for attacking places like this, but they'll turn whatever they manage to hit into gravel and sawdust.

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Still, 'Fuck those grid coordinates' is a big enough stick to get people to the discussion table.

"My point is-" Anton points towards where we can just about make out the docks where we can see both wooden ships and metal ships… Either being built new or being repaired. "-that this place could be a new centre of the shipping industry. They've already got the skills and the facilities-." He looks at Sergeant Matthew Willas. "Do they have a cannery?"

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The hard part is whether the locals enjoy the freedoms they currently have enough to resist.

"How the-? I dunno."

Anton wiggles his right hand, dismissing it as a concern. "We'll build them a cannery, ship fish south down the coast without having to complete with Shi fishermen. Or east, once the roads are repaired. Your people eat fish, Sir Griffin?"

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Ah, already working out how to exploit the new ground. How American!

"Fish have not been a major part of our diet, but that is because we have no access to the sea. Communities close to rivers and lakes likely do."

"Well, we'll soon fix that."

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In other words, he's not sure, and he can find out later anyway.

Sir Griffin nods, then his eyes widen and his right hand jumps to the grip of his sword. I turn to see what he's-.

I grab his wrist as I see the slave pens. It looks like they don't have enough explosive collars to give one to everyone, so mostly leave them chained up when they don't have a job for them.

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Oh, yes. His order has a thing about slavers and slavery.

"Unhand me, sir, that I might deal with these godless savages."

"Let go of your sword. Saving them is why we're bothering to negotiate. If you charge in now most of them will get slaughtered."

He jerks out of my grip, but releases his sword with an angry snort.

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Yeah, once the captives are safely out of danger, then you can go ham on their captors.

There's a group loitering around the front doors to the manor. From the different emblems and the way they're arranged in separate clusters, I'm going to assume that they're representatives of the more significant pirate flotillas. Heavily armed members of Captain Storm's own crew are guarding the entrance, and keeping an eye on the crowd.

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Ah, the local colour. The people Krono's team has to convince to come along quietly...

Sir Griffin moves to the van as his fellow knights move to the flanks of our party. I reach out mentally, but I don't feel any specific hostility. They're not happy about what us being here represents, but they didn't much like the Immortal either. They'll hear Captain Storm out at least, though she's going to have a devil of a time keeping them in order.

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I'm sure they'll be trouble down the line, but a little application of justified force will sort that out.

**[I reach out, towards the patterns in movement across the town…]**

Ah, of course. Never let a good crisis go to waste.

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Ah, people doing crimes while everyone's distracted? Because of course they are. This is basically a North-western Tortuga, isn't it?

We're escorted inside without issue, through corridors decorated with nautical memorabilia and what I'm going to assume are objects of significance. No glass cases; glass is far too expensive for something like that. And then the doors are thrown open to what I suspect used to be the community hall, and we're led inside. Captain Storm is on a chair atop a raised platform, trusted guards armed with machine guns, super sledges and grenade bandoleers both standing guard around her and lining the walls. Off to our right-.

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Ah, the Pirate Queen upon her throne. With plenty of guards to discourage ill-advised shenanigans.

I **[feel Sir Griffin's surge of anger]** at the sight of slaves. Matthew just looks them over and then nods to one, who nods back.

"Alright, landlubbers." Captain Storm nods insolently at us. "What'd yah want?"

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Ah, someone he knows, I see. They'll be a top priority for recovery, especially if things go ploin-shaped.

I take a step forwards. "Your surrender."

"I take it the Immortal's not coming back, then?"

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Wonder how much that undercuts her powerbase? I would presume she holds the throne by her own power.

"That seems unlikely."

"Dead?"

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Sadly, not that easy to kill an AI. Not unless they could find his central CPU. And that's probably been moved overseas by now.

"No. But he and his surviving soldiers have fled to Siberia. Forces are moving up from the south and down from the north to eliminate his remaining faithful and establish a transitional authority."

"What's that comin' outtah yer mouth? 'Transitional authory-'." She looks around. "Get a load of this guy."

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Yes, the language of government is a bit fancy, but you're going to have to get used to it, hun.

The peanut gallery snorts or chuckles as they feel appropriate.

"Where are you from?"

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I suppose his accent stands out a bit, even if he has lost some of his Britishness over the years.

"England. Home of civilisation." She raises her eyebrows. "But let's get down to it, shall we?"

"I'll listen."

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Also folks very good at the whole Piracy thing, I'll note. Not overly relevant here, but...

"You've seen the Californian naval vessels off the coast? There's more where that came from, and there are rather large armies heading slowly this way. You'll want us to have come to terms by the time they get here."

"What are you offering?"

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Good, show the stick on one hand, while offering the carrot with the other.

"The age of piracy is over. You can fish, you can become actually legitimate merchants or you can apply to join what is provisionally being called the Washington State Coastguard or you can get lost. You will release all of your slaves and provision them until such time as we can sort something else out. If you have any strategic or fission weapons, they're to be handed over at once."

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Sounds a lot like general surrender terms, though I imagine a great many of the smarter ones will take them up on the 'get lost' clause.

"And what do we get?"

"A chance to rejoin civilisation. Access to trade all down the pacific coast. Work, because I assure you there will be legitimate work while our friends and allies secure the region. And -not least- you avoid being obliterated."

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Which is a pretty big finger on the scales. And really, legitimate work is probably safer than piracy.

"And Port Maw?"

"Will remain a port and trading hub." She inclines her head slightly. "If you have something specific to ask-?"

"Who will rule it?"

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Ah, here's her angle. She wants to keep her throne.

"In the short term, the most cooperative local potentate. In the longer term, if something isn't broken you don't fix it. We have no specific need or desire to remove you." There's a breathing out, a slight relaxing from the guards and from the slaves as the prospect of immediate violence recedes. "And while I do not guarantee that you will remain in post indefinitely, there will be plenty of opportunities for someone like you to advance themselves in either the state government or private industry."

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Even if it's only her winning elections because 'Better the devil you know'.

"That's it? No tribute? No shipping magnates wanting revenge against us?"

"Tribute? Well, if you could let us walk away with any slaves you have who were members of the Brotherhood of Steel or the Wardens of the White, that would be helpful. You can pay us by saving us money. As for shipping magnates… I hope I don't need to describe in detail what happens to anyone who acts up after you've accepted this very generous offer?"

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Among other options, it involves a very brief dance at the end of a short rope.

"I can work it out."

I nod. "I noticed. You've got people with line of sight to captains you think-" Her eyes widen slightly, but she clamps down with barely any outward sign. "-aren't going to cooperate. Why don't you tell them to take their shots, while I go out to the crowd outside and give them the good news?"

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Clever. Ready to ensure a quick and relatively bloodless end to any hostilities that might have cropped up.

A quick and painless bit of negotiation, I see. Good to see the Pirate Queen being reasonable about the whole process. I'm sure she and her followers will find the new status quo to be quite profitable and much less hazardous than general piracy. After all, most pirate crews of the old days much preferred things - mainly victims - to go down without a fight.

 

[Cuchulin]

If the Catholics were in any position to judge there wouldn't have ever been Protestants. Their practice of praying to dead mortals that cannot hear or help is every bit as blasphemous as any of the wacky shit Mormons get up to.

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Considering a lot of the stuff that is official Mormon theology? I think that Catholics have a point there, personally I hesitate to consider any branch of Christianity that isn't properly trinitarian fully Christian. Not that my opinion shouldn't count for much as I am an agnostic/atheist (I sort of believe in vague undefined higher powers that are not god) who have never studied theology.

For that matter, more than a few Baptist sects (including the one my mother was neck-deep in) don't recognize Catholics as Christians.

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Baptist don't get to have a say considering the Catholic Church is older and their tend to sects tend to get up to weird stuff like handing live venoms snakes that still have their fangs as well as venom. But again my opinion shouldn't count for much.