With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Ace Dreamer]

Possibly a silly question, but if "Life=Pain", what does that mean for masochists? Seems like there might be hole in the logic, there...

Unless Darkseid is secretly...

 

[Coda]

Smaller than I thought it would be , but I suppose

Click to shrink...

Extra space.

dids't

Click to shrink...

No apostrophe; it's not a contraction of anything.

If she didn't plan to steal anything, she is just a SNEAK SPY.

Click to shrink...

By breaking in, she is at least a SNEAK BURGLAR.

OL meeting a dalek with a Red Power Ring could be... a significant encounter

Click to shrink...

Red Lantern Daleks are apparently a thing in the fanfic community.

Possibly a silly question, but if "Life=Pain", what does that mean for masochists? Seems like there might be hole in the logic, there...

Unless Darkseid is secretly...

Click to shrink...

I don't even think it's "secretly." I suspect that being a masochist -- or, at the very least, being able to master one's own pain, even if you don't strictly enjoy it -- is essential to mastering the Anti-Life Equation.

I like to imagine that, deep down, Darkseid understands that "self=null" still applies to him despite his attempt to refactor the equation to "self=dark side". He knows that in the grand cosmic scheme he's a meaningless nothing. And that's why he strives to oppress and dominate: If he must be nothing, then if he makes everything else less than nothing then he's still on top. And maybe, just maybe, when he's accumulated all of the infinitesimally insignificant value of all of the infinite things in the universe under his name, the sum will be nonzero.

EDIT: An alternate interpretation: The physical experience of pain isn't true pain, and life=pain works on a masochist just fine by showing them that they didn't know what pain actually was.

 

[Citizen]

He invaded their country, assaulted their rulers, semi-accidentality crippled their defences and openly plans to subvert their government. Not sure exactly what that makes him but it rather undermines his moral high ground.

Click to shrink...

He entered their country at a government-sanctioned port of entry and was physically attacked by a high official with no attempt at peaseful resolution of differences attempted first. That it was a case of mistaken identity and that the government was unaware that the mirror worked two ways are mitigating factors, and I suppose that it can be said that the God of Conquest will 'invade' anywhere he goes that isn't his personal domain, but while he is occasionally acting like an ass, he has met most standards of good behavior thus far and came on a humanitarian (ponytarian?) mission seeking medical aid he is unlikely to find elsewhere.

 

[rdfox]

For the record, as a non-pony fan, I can point out that historically, many castles (and the towns that inevitably followed to support them) were built in highly inconvenient spots if you were trying to maximize the efficiency of the city and of government, and for a very good reason: defensibility.

Remember, at its core, any castle is a military fortification. It's a fortress for the leadership and populace to fall back into in time of war, should the enemy army approach. It's meant to be very, very hard to force entry into. (This is why siege warfare was so important for so long--it doesn't matter if you can't get past the fortifications, if you can stop the flow of food and supplies into them and starve the defenders out.) And a major part of what made a castle such an effective fortification was its placement.

Many were on islands, such that the waterway surrounding them would act as a natural barrier to any attacking army (just burn the bridge and now they've got to make an amphibious attack). Those that weren't on islands would often have an artificial waterway dug around them, in the form of the moat. But high ground really is a major advantage in combat, so many landlocked castles were built atop hills and, indeed, mountain peaks, so that anyone attempting to assault them would have to fight uphill against the defending infantry, while archers on the parapet could rain down missile fire from a greater distance (shooting downhill == gravity helps with long range fire) while getting better protection from the crenelations of the wall, and any siege engines the enemy brought to try and batter down the walls of the castle would have reduced range and effectiveness (shooting uphill == gravity hinders range and impact speed).

So honestly, in many ways, it would make sense for Canterlot Castle to be built on a mountain peak... assuming, of course, that ponies built castles as military fortifications, anyway--but if they were so pacifist as to not be siting castles for defense, they probably wouldn't be building castles in the first place, instead of non-fortified manor homes for royalty...

 

[Sun Dog]

"Krass, there are two logical ways to deal with criminality. The first is rehabilitation." I raise my arms as one guard runs his scanner over my torso and another holds a glowing crystal to my forehead. "To turn law-breakers into decent citizens. At the most basic level, that can be achieved through the threat of punishment or punishment itself. Fines, the stocks-"

He winces. There are good reasons beyond mere professionalism why he doesn't drink liquor these days.

"-public whippings, conscription, imprisonment, forced labour… All sorts of things. Then there are more indirect things; finding them useful work or getting them sober." He grunts. "But, ultimately, the convicted has to see it as better to follow the rules than break them."

"Yeah, okay. What's the other one?"

"Laws aren't secret. If you're not going to rehabilitate them and they can't be trusted to behave, simply kill them."

Click to shrink...

Time to put those hundreds of bucks spent on Criminal Justice classes in college to work.

Broadly speaking there are FOUR reasons people get imprisoned or otherwise punished for social deviance. These may overlap or conflict to varying degrees.

First, and least controversial, really to the point nobody talks about it, incapacitation. If someone is in prison, stocks, or dead, any threat they may pose to society as a whole is effectively nullified. Their ability to inflict violence on their fellow man is... if not removed entirely at least restricted to fellow inmates whom society largely doesn't care about.

Second, rehabilitation. Maybe there's something wrong with this person that needs therapy, maybe they never learned how to be a law-abiding, productive member of society. But as long as they're out of circulation anyways, you may as well take the time to try and teach them to be good.

Third, retribution. These people did wrong. They hurt others. So, they must be punished, must suffer, so the scales of justice can balance. It's not right, it's not fair otherwise.

Fourth, deterrence. The scofflaw can provide an example in what happens when you break the rules, and if he is punished harshly enough, it may frighten others who were considering criminality into behaving.

People place different degrees of emphasis, of course. If I were to draw a Venn Diagram, retribution/deterrence would be basically one circle with just a little space for each around the edges, because the two ideas flow very naturally from each other, and it's rehabilitation that would struggle to find common ground, a conflict at the heart of so many problems with the US prison system.

After all, if you believe a prison is primarily there to rehabilitate inmates then things like weekend passes to visit family make perfect sense. You want the inmates to have strong social support networks outside of prison, to reduce recidivism. And if it bends incapacitation a bit, well, you can only go so far before having to trust the people you're trying to reform. And if your personal mental model of prison is retributive/deterrent-based, it makes sense to not get excited over horrible living conditions or prison rape. Anything that makes the experience worse for inmates, and more frightening to prospective criminals, is A-OK.

You'll note deterrence always comes up in discussions of the merits of a death penalty. Retribution, sometimes, but I guarantee in any serious debate about capital punishment, deterrence will come up early and often, and the raft of evidence that this is minimally effective at best- criminals tend to strongly believe they won't get caught- will be brushed off. Because that is the strongest argument for death.

 

[Gantradies]

He seems to be working with Magneto for beating Sublime.

Yeah a reality warper who thinks that humans will always hate mutants and is subtly influencing reality to be like that makes a lot more sense than Sublime.
Plus people like Magneto who want to wipe out humans or enslave them really have damaged the reputation of mutants.

Click to shrink...

depends- Marvel can't give him a consistent charicteriseation to save the chief editor's life-some versions of the charicter are... saner than others >.<

he keeps bouncing between "rage-inducingingly hypocritical Holocaust-survivor Mutant Hitler" (*cough*pre-timeline alteration x-men movie Eric ranting about the mutant master race At a clearly Hitler-inspired rally*cough*)"legitimately well-intentioned extremist being framed for atrocities/ "just" far more cynical then Charles", and thousands of shades in between; depending on what the writers/editors think will sell better- and given the briiiiiliiiiant "Nazi captain America" plot line (lets drop the bs- Hydra is, and always was, for all intents and purposes, a remnant of/social club for the descendants of the marvel universe's Nazi German government, and will never be anything more)
from a few years back, I'm half expecting some idiot at marvel to start pushing for having him run death camps or something equally obnoxiously offensive >.<
arguably deadpool is more predictable/consistent between his incarnations, ethically and morally >.<

.... you know, that could actually be legitimately hilarious/interesting- 'pool laying into the local version of Eric and ranting/rambling about the actions of one of his alternates from a universe or two over, as Eric steady goes white/grey, or possibly red from rage under the helmet....

... and instead of predictably attacking Wilson, seeking proof, going even further into tranquil fury,and attempting to gain access to transport/a portal to go for the offending alternate selves-

 

[WereDragon]

No he didn't. At worst he intruded.

Click to shrink...

His entry was intrusion. His campaign of escalating phycological abuse aimed at coercing a member of Equestrian royalty and her entourage rather upgrades the offence.

Luna attacked him.

Click to shrink...

I was actually thinking of Twilight. Legal and phycological attacks are no less a form of assault for being non-physical.

The Elements of Harmony were already unavailable.

Click to shrink...

The mane six are, to all indications, Equestria's first and best line of defence whether they have the EoH or not.

No, he plans to help Sunset subvert their government. And only the natural authorty of alicornhood, not the mechanism by which the country is run.

Click to shrink...

Grayven: "This is Sunset, my minion."
Trying to put one of your underlings on a foreign throne was a favoured pastime of feudal rulers.

I don't think he was trying to take the moral high ground.

Click to shrink...

He made a moral judgment of her actions. If he wasn't trying to claim a moral high ground then what exactly was he doing?


Also just realised, Grayven's initial intent upon entering Equestria was to steal the Mirror and sneak off with it. I guess that means he is at least qualified to to know who counts as a sneak thief, being one himself.

 

[Darko]

Gantradies i recommend you read some of Alara Rogers stories on FF.Net , especially the ones concerning Magneto and his thought process, you will be amazed.
There was this one story, don't remember the name, where Alpha tells Magneto the reason he chose such a violent path for mutants was because he learned about power from the Nazis and was emulating them.
There is also another story where Professor X is called a barbarian sex god by the Shi'ar.
It may sound funny funny, but trust me when i say it is extremely thought provoking and deep.

 

[Gantradies]

Gantradies i recommend you read some of Alara Rogers stories on FF.Net , especially the ones concerning Magneto and his thought process, you will be amazed.
There was this one story, don't remember the name, where Alpha tells Magneto the reason he chose such a violent path for mutants was because he learned about power from the Nazis and was emulating them.
There is also another story where Professor X is called a barbarian sex god by the Shi'ar.
It may sound funny funny, but trust me when i say it is extremely thought provoking and deep.

Click to shrink...

Throw is a link or two, and I'll give them a shot-
i mean, a story on Sofurry I originally started following for shameless lewditiy once bought me to genuine tears 8 chapters later when the author got serious about just how tragic/legitimately messed up, but believable the reason one of the main characters ended up where they were was before the start was- I've seen odder/wackier premises make good reading before!
..
....
I wonder if that Bolo/MLP crossover ever updated....

 

[Orabilis]

So honestly, in many ways, it would make sense for Canterlot Castle to be built on a mountain peak... assuming, of course, that ponies built castles as military fortifications, anyway--but if they were so pacifist as to not be siting castles for defense, they probably wouldn't be building castles in the first place, instead of non-fortified manor homes for royalty...

Click to shrink...

I think that its exceptionally unlikely that castles are an effective form of defense in a world with dragons let alone a world with a civilisation or two of flying creatures (both pegasi and gryphons). Likewise high up on a mountain if also no defense against a flying opponent, this is not counting any form of magic beyond flight and dragon's breath. If you expect flying assault then you should be building bunkers, not castles.

All military doctrine would be different in a world like this to say nothing of shapeshifting invasive species, teleportation, mind control etc. I suspect that Canterlot Castle is more accurately a palace not a castle, as its primarily going to be a position to hold court and rule from rather than defend against anything.

 

[Mist of Shadows]

What do you think he's scanning for? Which out of the thousands of microbes in the human body is responsible? Does Sublime even exist in this setting?

Click to shrink...

Sublime is an entity that should be obliterated so checking is not unreasonable.

It's something that is in everyone and not in the mutants... He has Tony... scan him... he has Janet, scan her... he has random idiots all around... scan them... scan Rogue.. it just seems like he's blowing it off.

He has an alien SUPER COMPUTER on his finger... it should be able to scan the entire city fairly quickly and do the comparison. You might need more than a couple of mutants, but after scanning a dozen or two mutants and a couple of thousand people, it shouldn't be hard to narrow down. Not to mention hey, alien science... and the fact that Sublime does shit that a simple bacteria/virus whatever the fuck it is shouldn't means the alien computer should be able to flag it anyways. (sure it might flag some other stuff, it's marvel after all but it should still narrow things down.)

But yeah, even if the ring can't flag it for some reason, it should be able to do the comparison... 100% of people have this... regardless of occupation or location... none of the mutants do... once you get a decent enough sample size, it shouldn't be hard for the power ring to figure out.

 

[Vaermina]

As has been said, she recently spent a lot of time dominated, and then overcome with outside power. That's the mantle of conquest twice over.

Click to shrink...

Nightmare moon was a split personality created by Luna's own magical power... Not an outside entity...

??? Explain?

Click to shrink...

Mutants, mutates, eternals, deviants, they were all just failures in the Celestial attempt to path Baseline humanity's adaptability.

 

[The Froggy Ninja]

Nightmare moon was a split personality created by Luna's own magical power... Not an outside entity...

Click to shrink...

The comics make it pretty clear the Nightmare was a parasitic demon of some kind.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

If you expect flying assault then you should be building bunkers, not castles.

Click to shrink...

The season 2 finale showed a network of tunnels in the mountain. They could have been used as shelters against flying enemies in the past, while the mountaintop city would have been extremely difficult for land bound armies to attack. Furthermore, dragons in this setting are primarily... I'm not sure what to call a species of gem-eaters, (geovores?) most don't seem to have much reason to try and attack a city.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Zoat are we going to see some common sense Paul in this or the next episode?
Would love to see him deal with Lex and his relationship with Paula.

Click to shrink...

No, but maybe in the one after that?

Extra space.
No apostrophe; it's not a contraction of anything.

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

By breaking in, she is at least a SNEAK BURGLAR.

Click to shrink...

She didn't 'break' in.

Red Lantern Daleks are apparently a thing in the fanfic community.

Click to shrink...

Yes.

I don't even think it's "secretly." I suspect that being a masochist -- or, at the very least, being able to master one's own pain, even if you don't strictly enjoy it -- is essential to mastering the Anti-Life Equation.

Click to shrink...

No. Not master. Accept.

For the record, as a non-pony fan, I can point out that historically, many castles (and the towns that inevitably followed to support them) were built in highly inconvenient spots if you were trying to maximize the efficiency of the city and of government, and for a very good reason: defensibility.

Remember, at its core, any castle is a military fortification. It's a fortress for the leadership and populace to fall back into in time of war, should the enemy army approach. It's meant to be very, very hard to force entry into. (This is why siege warfare was so important for so long--it doesn't matter if you can't get past the fortifications, if you can stop the flow of food and supplies into them and starve the defenders out.) And a major part of what made a castle such an effective fortification was its placement.

Many were on islands, such that the waterway surrounding them would act as a natural barrier to any attacking army (just burn the bridge and now they've got to make an amphibious attack). Those that weren't on islands would often have an artificial waterway dug around them, in the form of the moat. But high ground really is a major advantage in combat, so many landlocked castles were built atop hills and, indeed, mountain peaks, so that anyone attempting to assault them would have to fight uphill against the defending infantry, while archers on the parapet could rain down missile fire from a greater distance (shooting downhill == gravity helps with long range fire) while getting better protection from the crenelations of the wall, and any siege engines the enemy brought to try and batter down the walls of the castle would have reduced range and effectiveness (shooting uphill == gravity hinders range and impact speed).

So honestly, in many ways, it would make sense for Canterlot Castle to be built on a mountain peak... assuming, of course, that ponies built castles as military fortifications, anyway--but if they were so pacifist as to not be siting castles for defense, they probably wouldn't be building castles in the first place, instead of non-fortified manor homes for royalty...

Click to shrink...

Canterlot doesn't have a castle. The Castle of the Two Sisters is a castle. It's clearly a military structure. The palace on the other hand clearly isn't designed to defend anything, whatever it's official name is. Its position might sort of make sense if the fight with Nightmare Moon was a full-blown civil war it might make sense, but that fight lasted about a minute.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

I wonder if that Bolo/MLP crossover ever updated....

Click to shrink...

There would appear to be more than a dozen MLP:Bolo stories here... Of course, whether any of them are good...

Considering that the Dinochrome Brigade is a(n armoured) cavalry unit, though...

Not sure what colour ring would suit a Bolo, some would say green, some might say ultra-violet.

 

[Vaermina]

The comics make it pretty clear the Nightmare was a parasitic demon of some kind.

Click to shrink...

Amusingly that was Luna lying about what really happened.

Because in the Nightmare Moon origin we were showed first hand what actually happened with the Nyx.

 

[The Froggy Ninja]

Amusingly that was Luna lying about what really happened.

Because in the Nightmare Moon origin we were showed first hand what actually happened with the Nyx.

Click to shrink...

I meant the time it possessed Rarity.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I meant the time it possessed Rarity.

Click to shrink...

I'm inclined to miss out comic events.

 

[RichardWhereat]

The palace on the other hand clearly isn't designed to defend anything, whatever it's official name is.

Click to shrink...

That has a moat, a drawbridge, crenellations, Machicolations!, balistraria, towers, and no non-balistraria 'windows' on the ground floor.

A castle is a fortified personal residence, and this absolutely fits that criteria. Now, it doesn't have a curtain walls but it doesn't need them. Also, it's stupidly placed next to a cliff, where an enemy can engineer a rockslide, but I'm imagining that Celestia has given the place magic strength to deal with earth ponies. If not, that just goes to her incompetence, rather than castle criteria.

But, good design or not, this is absolutely a castle.

 

[Coda]

Machicolations

Click to shrink...

Why I too watch Shadiversity.

I very much appreciate that this thread went straight to "but what about dragons?"

But, good design or not, this is absolutely a castle.

Click to shrink...

It's unclear that this is in fact fortified. Those machicolations might not be open on top and they're not positioned over a place that attackers could be attempting to siege. The crenellations look way too short to be useful. The gatehouse is... physically impossible, so I guess we really can't discuss that.

In my estimation, this is not a castle. This is a castle-styled palace.

 

[Gantradies]

I've honestly never understood the Buzz over the "Super" Soldier serum in universe. Like...it's not THAT impressive. Given that most of what makes Steve such an asset is his tactical mind and good nature. Neither of which the serum has anything to do with.

I also remember that it was originally just Steroid treatments. But yeah.

I mean Stark's Iron-tech is what you'd want for "Super" Soldiers I would think. It's far more powerful, infinitely upgradable, and if said soldier goes rogue....you can take it from them. Granted, much like Batman, Steve CLEARLY has Super-human abilities at times rather then the Supra that he's supposed to have.

Plus, in a world where the X-gene seems to be humanity's ultimate gift and destiny....it just seems like it'd be obsolete quickly.

Click to shrink...

the way i see it, if you could get a flawless replication/understanding of the original formula nailed down,
you've got a pretty damned decent, generalist enhancement formula for adjustment/improvement, with almost no negative effects (assuming the enhanciles aren't....morally aberrant)-
its not the strength of any specific enhancement that's the draw- its that its.. well- boosts everything- not to mention that the OG formula, which Various Marvel Earth's have spent upwards of 60-80 years trying to just REPRODUCE, was essentially a prototypical/purely experimental formula- there's a decent chance that it could be refined to be significantly more potent...

whilst Danner and Garrick, for example, are more minmaxed/focused on enhancing specific traits/abilities-and are known to have outright lethal compatibility issues- if, for example, the SS formula could be safely applied to a patient, followed by ANOTHER formula on top....

if you were also using cybernetic/magic augmentation, it also makes a decent framework to build other augmentations on due to the well-rounded nature..

 

[RichardWhereat]

Why I too watch Shadiversity.

I very much appreciate that this thread went straight to "but what about dragons?"


It's unclear that this is in fact fortified. Those machicolations might not be open on top and they're not positioned over a place that attackers could be attempting to siege. The crenellations look way too short to be useful. The gatehouse is... physically impossible, so I guess we really can't discuss that.

In my estimation, this is not a castle. This is a castle-styled palace.

Click to shrink...

It's not physically impossible until we've seen more angles of it. If you want to disprove that it it is possible, feel free to show different pictures at different angles.

 

[Chaoswind]

Why I too watch Shadiversity.

I very much appreciate that this thread went straight to "but what about dragons?"


It's unclear that this is in fact fortified. Those machicolations might not be open on top and they're not positioned over a place that attackers could be attempting to siege. The crenellations look way too short to be useful. The gatehouse is... physically impossible, so I guess we really can't discuss that.

In my estimation, this is not a castle. This is a castle-styled palace.

Click to shrink...

It's far more likely that this was a castle that evolved into a palace as time went on. My understanding of the things being said in this thread is that Celestia has ruled for hundreds of years, thus it makes sense if this place was at first a castle made to protect the little horses from the other races of the land sapient and not, thus its reasonable to assume this place started as a castle and then was turned into palace when the little horses didn't have major enemies to fear.

I mean looking at the architecture in that image it looks like this was an structure that kept getting renovated and had new palace wings as add ons.

 

[Vaermina]

I meant the time it possessed Rarity.

Click to shrink...

Yea, that was really the Nyx.

 

[Mquz]

So, as there seem to be a lot of MLP and HOI 4 fans here, is Equestria at War any good? Also, any suggestions for a fairly new player?

 

[FreeGod]

Can you dual mantle? Because I'm pretty sure ol' Gravy's becoming the New God of Foster Dadding

Click to shrink...

Taking the woman those you defeat is a time honored tradition. Of course Gravy generally does very different things with them.

 

[The Froggy Ninja]

Yea, that was really the Nyx.

Click to shrink...

I mean, that leads to some uncomfortable questions about the elements. In the demonic possession interpretation, the elements cleansed her of an outside force. If it's just her being evil, then it's mind control. If it's the result of dark magic corruption then it's functionally indistinguishable from being possessed by a demon.

 

[zerofarad]

Cadance

Click to shrink...

Thank you, corrected.

Click to shrink...

One more occurrence:

In the interim, using Cadence as an ambassador and Twilight as a champion makes the most sense.

Click to shrink...

 

[Mr Zoat]

Down down down down
Down down down down
Down

The lift doors open… Heh. The room beyond looks like the place SHADE were keeping Lynne. In place of the machinery they were using is a series of coloured rings. Inner, mid and outer, one layer of each colour of the emotional spectrum, red at the top and violet at the bottom. And inside them a ball of… Grey. And I know it should be white. Several of the inner rings are afflicted too, dulled and.. slightly melted. I step out of the lift and cautiously start walking a circle of the room.

I find myself glancing at the place I killed Esak, and for a moment his body flickers into view.

Hm.

"What is it?"

Luna has taken a few steps closer, though thankfully she's got more sense than to actually touch the thing.

"The bands are formed from my emotions. Red, for hate and anger. Orange, for avarice. Yellow, for fear. Green, for will. Blue, for hope. Indigo, for compassion. Violet for love. A pearl of universal life force contains a fragment of the Anti-Life Equation."

"And what is that?"

"Nobody's completely certain, praise the Source. There are certain… Forms of suffering, which can… Take on a pseudo-life of their own. I suppose it's a little like how the abstract concept of 'loyalty' can, in the hooves of a profoundly loyal pony, become part of a harmonious Rainbow of Fixing. This is… A fragment, one my father chose to bestow upon me as… What I'm forced to assume was a gesture of respect and affirmation."

"What is it?"

"Have you ever wanted something, striven for something with all your might, and failed, failed completely and known a misery of a depth that you could not have known if you had never made that effort?"

She shivers, then nods.

"Imagine feeling that misery for everything. Imagine.. being convinced that even the successes were failures. Imagine being made incapable of thinking that things were otherwise, that they had ever been otherwise, that they could ever be otherwise. That is what this fragment does."

"And… The whole?"

"Father believes that it will cause the entire universe to become an extension of his being; that it will make him not a New God but simply God. Having known this.. piece, I shudder to imagine what he'd have to become to make that happen."

"And you believe that the Elements of Harmony could remove it."

"I hope that the Elements of Harmony will destroy it. But I'd take removing it. See how the cage is failing?"

"We see it." She takes a small step closer. "How long will it take?"

"Don't know. I actually used the blasted thing a little while ago and I think that's where the decay of the inner ring came from. But it's increasing and I don't know how to stop it. Because it's not just a matter of recreating the rings. It's literally eating the emotion I put into them. Making them part of it. Adapting, so that I'll come to see those emotional bonds as harmful to myself."

I stomp towards her.

"And this is just a fragment. Do you understand!? Your country may have a way to unmake the entire Anti-Life! Your entire species could devote their existences into doing nothing but fulfilling that goal and their lives would have been more worthy than they would had they devoted themselves to any other goal. And they don't need to. Six members of your species have to give me five bucking minutes. And then I'm out of their hair."

"That… Is a sound argument. And Sister's former apprentice?"

"Sunset wants to turn herself into an alicorn using a technique she discovered for herself while Celestia watches. She believes that doing so will conclusively prove Celestia wrong, and then Celestia will either admit it or prove herself unworthy of Sunset's devotion."

"She did not seem devout."

"On my world, Sunset has access to any arcane text she wants. Any arcane device she wants. She has a mentor who is delighted by her scholarship, students of her own, and tasks from me to keep her on her toes. She has everything she ever wanted from Celestia, and she bothered coming back. Why?"

"Because she is not as angry as she appears."

"No, her anger is genuine. But as much as she hates Celestia, she loves her too. In her mind, Celestia's rejection is an aber…" I look past Luna to… There's a small… Ball, like a hole to a starry sky, floating just behind her. "Aberration. What's.. that?"

The ball floats towards the cage, a pale blue aura-. She's bypassing my locks? Okay, yes, she's rather good at dream magic, that's expected. But I'm looking at it and I still can't feel it.

"No! Stop!" Luna's staring at it in fear. "We did not make you to torment others!"

"Luna, is that yours?"

It's getting closer to the emotional bindings, floating up past hope and will, slowing at fear and stopping at avarice.

The pearl within the bindings undulates.

"Luna."

"It is called the Tantabus. We made it that We might never forget Our misdeeds and failings."

"What does it do?"

"It makes Us relive them each night. We do not-."

I turn my head towards her. "Why would you make something like that?"

"It is what We deserve. We desired Our ponies' reverence so much that We were driven mad by its lack."

Oh shit.

"Your desire for something was strong, and you were hurt for it."

"We were driven mad for it. We became a monster-."

The Tantabus darts in, the outer orange ring shattering and failing! The greying pearl stretches out to meet it, the inner ring evaporating at its approach.

"Luna, run." Here I-.

I blink. Here I-.

My God Speech. I can't do it. Without that-.

"What horror is occurring?"

"You've felt it, the form of suffering this fragment relates to. And you invested that feeling in this Tantabus thing. The barrier's about to fail and there's nothing we can do to stop it. I'm no longer blocking your magic. Can you escape?"

She tilts her head slightly. "Neigh, We cannot."

The orange hoop fails first, the Tantabus floating through the gap and touching the misshapen grey mass inside. It.. flows over the shape's outer surface, giving it new definition and substance.

The other rings shatter in a blast that knocks us both into the wall behind us!

And a vaguely horse-shaped thing steps forth.

"Life = Pain."