With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Mister_Potato · Mar 10, 2024

Vaermina said:
Not in Stargate? There the Abrahamic religions originated from the waves of returning Ancients.

I have not been able to find the supposed Alteran influence on Judeo-Christianity, if you have a link could you share it?

The existence of Baal confirms that the Goa'uld influenced the Canaanite pantheon. In that sense, the god of the Hebrews was possibly the result of the monotheization of the warrior god Yahweh/Jah and his subsequent syncretization with the head of the Canaanite pantheon El. Everything indicates that Judaism, and therefore its derivatives, have Goau'ld influences.

Vaermina · Mar 10, 2024

Mister_Potato said:
I have not been able to find the supposed Alteran influence on Judeo-Christianity, if you have a link could you share it?

It was Seasons 8 and 9 of the series.

There was even a whole bit with them going to Camalot and retrieving the Holy Grail.

The existence of Baal confirms that the Goa'uld influenced the Canaanite pantheon. In that sense, the god of the Hebrews was possibly the result of the monotheization of the warrior god Yahweh/Jah and his subsequent syncretization with the head of the Canaanite pantheon El. Everything indicates that Judaism, and therefore its derivatives, have Goau'ld influences.

I feel like you might have fallen into the same trap as Paul might have, and assumed religious history is the same in real life as it is on Stargate Earth.

Ina_Meishou · Mar 10, 2024

Peanuckle said:
They have nothing to do with whether or not Paul worthy of worship. Would Goa'uld Paul consider himself to be a being worthy of a dedicated religion?

Well, that's a question for the people worshiping him isn't it.

So hmm, let's see. Is this wise and benevolent figure of great power who showed up, started building infrastructure, teaching us arts of power, organizing wider projects, brought in sages to instruct the youth, and making fair judgements on disputes worthy of veneration?

Signs point to 'yes' by pretty much every standard in human history up until the last century or so.

Let's examine the scene from the perspective of Mammon's followers.

The god Mammon, in his wisdom, is arbitrating disputes among his subjects. After solving a difficult case to the satisfaction of all involved, he then uses his divine power to instantly locate the doll of one of the children. Heartwarming.

But the child let's slip that someone has committed heresy.

So Mammon instantly vanishes into nothingness, only to reappear with the heretic for question.

The heretic says a lot of things that don't make much sense, talking about how the obvious god isn't really a god because...some other god is her god? And that Mammon's true form is a serpent. Which she seems to think means that Mammon can't be a god because...reasons?

Anyway, Mammon proceeds to explain how the Gods first revealed themselves to your people, and how your ancestors came to live in Mammon's domain. And he reveals his true form, which rises up from his mortal shell before you. And gently chastises the heretic for being rude and confusing the children.

What about this is supposed to indicate that Mammon/Paul isn't a god? Without bringing up irrelevant metrics from Abrahamic traditions none of the humans off earth are likely to have internalized?

Peanuckle said:
The fact that other such beings were monstrous (by modern human standards) has no bearing on Goa'Paul's personal worth. If you really want to compare your divinity to that of bloodthirsty tricksters, then that's a metric you're setting.

You've missed the point.

The point is that there isn't a moralistic qualifier for being a god. Be you benevolent champion of justice and temperence or a drunken, violent, abusive asshole. You can be a god either way.

What, do you think the Norse recognized Loki as a god because they were stupid or 'uneducated'? That the Greeks were just idiots to think an asshole like Poseidon was a god?

Most people historically, and almost certainly the overwhelming majority of people in the Goa'uld's domains, have one metric for godhood. One thing that makes a being 'worthy'.

Power.

You don't worship a god because they're benevolent, or kind, or helpful, or whatever other irrelevant concept you're attaching to 'worthy'. All those can be nice, and if they deign to show you favor that's great.

You worship gods because they're strong. Because their moods can be fickle and your offerings might stave off their wrath. Because the world is dangerous and there's a chance your offerings will invite their protection. Because they know shit and maybe they'll be willing to point you in the right direction. Because they're powerful enough to act upon the world in ways you cannot, for both weal and woe, and you hope that your offering will invite a little less woe and a little more weal your way.

Peanuckle · Mar 10, 2024

Ina_Meishou said:
You've missed the point.

Mors said:
Better check your biases.

My question isn't whether or not Paul could be considered a god, because as others have brought up there are several ways to define such a being and Paul (and many other characters) fit those definitions. My question is whether Paul, the character, considers himself a divine being worthy of worship. What are his personal thoughts on the matter, considering that his power descends from the orange light entity? Elsewhere in this story he's pretty adamant about gods not really being a thing, so it's an odd divergence to see him lay claim to the title.

Mr Zoat said:
"So, in conclusion, I'm both a 'god' and a 'snakehead', because those are one and the same thing. Do you understand?"

This seems to be his clearest response on the matter, but I think he's being facetious in order to defuse a social bomb. I doubt this Paul actually believes himself to be a god, which is what I'm trying to get at. Looking at other examples and questioning the definitions doesn't get to the character's personal opinion.

Darko · Mar 10, 2024

Peanuckle said:
Elsewhere in this story he's pretty adamant about gods not really being a thing, so it's an odd divergence to see him lay claim to the title.

That could be because this version has been pretending to be a supposed deity for so long that he adopted some habits people may associate with such beings.

We already saw that he nearly considered himself a Goa'uld instead of a human in a previous chapter, so he may have changed his mind.

Most other versions haven't taken up the mantle of godhood, so they wouldn't have that attitude.

Even renegade, who's become a god, doesn't really do a lot of things you'd associate with gods, like interacting with worshippers or listening to prayers, so even he may not have that attitude.

Darko · Mar 10, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
No doubt Lord Mahes complained about me treating war as exercise in logistics?"

Which it kinda is.

Though the Goa'uld always seemed to be more of the "attack, attack, attack" mindset when it came to war rather than the necessary accounting work.

Mr Zoat said:
return your to your god,

"return you"

Mr Zoat said:
Many gods only equip their jaffa with light armour, designed to absorb fire from energy weapons. These kinetic weapons will pierce it."

I remember some scenes from 40k where Necrons scoffed at human weapons, only to be destroyed by them.

Their tech was made to withstand things like supernovas, but not physical objects being shot at them.

Mr Zoat said:
"Oh, each other. In the three thousand years since Ra left I don't think a single year has gone by without one group on their world making war upon another."

He shakes his head. "Foolish, and wasteful

Hey, it's not like your people are doing better right now.

Mr Zoat · Mar 10, 2024

Later that day

"Look familiar?"

Second Prime Abrax takes hold of the automatic rifle I shamelessly copied from those SG7 pointed at me. We're in the armoury, which seemed like the best place for him to get a feel for the new weapons before we draft a plan for our wargames.

"Clearly, it is a-" He spots the trigger and pointedly keeps his fingers away from it. "-weapon of some sort, Lord." He looks at the magazine, goes to open his mouth and then hesitates. "No, Lord. I am not familiar with it."

"Abrax. Your master Lord Mahes is a God of War. That is his domain, and his mastery of it is rivalled only by other war gods. I am a God of Trade. My understanding of economics is superb, but my understanding of war is far more limited. No doubt Lord Mahes complained about me treating war as an exercise in logistics?"

He hesitates again. "My god did inform me that it is unlikely that we would be sent into battle soon."

I nod. "You are here because I can't possibly produce products for sale without knowing what the end user desires. So speak to me as a warrior to an armourer."

He looks at me askance. "That is not-. Ah, I do not question you, Lord Mammon. It-. This-."

I wave my right hand. "Speak freely and without care, Abrax. The worst I will do is return you to your god, and it is paramount that you and I understand one another in this exercise."

"I do not… Understand."

I raise my eyebrows. "Can you narrow it down a little?"

"Your manner, Lord. No god I have heard speaks as a mortal speaks, yet…"

He's tense. Bastet's underlords are less inclined to execute their jaffa and human followers for doing what they're told in a displeasing way than some, but there are still some fairly definite red lines.

"A king gives commands. A general issues orders. A merchant converses. People are far more likely to buy from someone who they like. That's why I don't usually bother with the voice. But if it would make you happier, I could do so?"

He nods. "It is… What I am accustomed to."

"Very well. What else?"

"You tolerated the heretic speaking out in your court." He frowns, grimacing. "The child spoke in ignorance, and I understand why you were merciful. But I do not understand why you tolerated such blatant disrespect."

"Because she's too useful to discard. Because we do simplify things for our followers, and as mine learn more they need to know how they are supposed to deal with understanding what their grandparents would have simply called 'magic' and avoided thinking about. Because my job is to persuade those who disagree with me to see things my way, and sometimes that cannot be done in a single meeting."

He's still frowning, but he nods.

"Now, that weapon. Tell me your impressions."

"It is… Short." He grips the stock, squeezing and shaking it to try and determine how solid it is. "As a melee weapon it has poor reach, through it may be more manoeuvrable than a Ma'Tok and so negate the need."

I nod. "There's an attachment point for a knife on the barrel, but the designers generally assumed that it would be used almost entirely for shooting."

He holds the stock in his right hand and lightly grips the magazine with his left. "This is the source of its power?"

"No. Where a Ma'Tok staff or a Zat'nik'tel use a liquid power source that can fuel thousands of shots, these weapons use solid ammunition which is propelled by an alchemical explosive. It can fire only those shots physically placed inside. That-" I point to the magazine. "-is their container. Just press-" I point to the magazine release. "-there."

He moves the hand on the stock to hold the middle section of the gun, then presses the release. He nearly drops the magazine as it falls into his hand; perhaps he was just expecting it to come loose? Then he lifts it up to he can examine the rounds.

"They seem… Small."

"They hit with considerably less force than-." Hm. "It just occurred to me that you have only used the standard issue Ma'Tok staff."

"I do not understand, Lord."

"The version issued to Ra's forces has a little more kick to it. A privilege of being sworn to the Supreme System Lord. A hit from a normal Ma'Tok will burn a hole in a man's chest. Ra's version would cave his chest in and send him flying as if kicked by a mule as well. But you are correct. Each bullet hits with far less force than a blast from a Ma'Tok staff."

His frown deepens as he slots the magazine back into the gun and then shifts it to a from-the-hip firing position. Realising that that's clearly incorrect, he raises it to the off-the-shoulder position jaffa use for aimed staff shots. Then he thinks for a moment and moves it so that the stock rests against his shoulder instead.

"Is this correct, Lord?"

"Just so."

"The small metal circle above the barrel is a sight. The magazine allows the ammunition to be drawn-." He moves the rifle off so that he can examine it again. "No. There is no source of power. It is purely mechanical. The ammunition is fed into the launching mechanism."

He moves to a firing lane and releases the magazine again before putting it on the bench. Then he returns the rifle to his shoulder and pulls the trigger, which does not move. Frowning, he lower the gun and looks it over for a moment before finding the safety switch. He can't read the writing, but there are only three settings. He selects the first, single shot. Then he raises it to his shoulder and aims at the target.

Click.

"It is a hammer. A contact trigger. It strikes the ammunition. What is the delay between shots?"

"Less than a second. If you move that dial again, it will continue to fire again and again until the magazine is empty. Thirty shots, though there are larger versions."

"I can see an advantage against an unarmoured foe, but against armoured jaffa surely it would achieve little?"

"That depends on their armour. Many gods only equip their jaffa with light armour, designed to absorb fire from energy weapons. These kinetic weapons will pierce it."

His frown deepens, then he raps his knuckles against his own trinium heavy plate. "And against my armour?"

"Not easily. They would have to hit the joints, or shoot the eyes of your helmet to force you to expose your head. Or use a larger version."

He nods, returning the magazine to the gun. "This weapon seems… Simple, compared to the workings of the gods."

"Its designers are the tau'ri. The humans of the original human homeworld. They have no god to instruct them in the higher magics, but they have made considerable progress in mastering the lower ones by themselves."

"If they have no god, then who do they make war upon?"

"Oh, each other. In the three thousand years since Ra left I don't think a single year has gone by without one group on their world making war upon another."

He shakes his head. "Foolish, and wasteful. They should be conquered and corrected as swiftly as possible."

I nod. "A fine warrior's answer. But I am a merchant. Now, try firing it. Though I will-"

He raises the gun and fires, bullet narrowing missing the bull's-eye as he winces at the BANG.

"-warn you that it's a little louder than a Ma'Tok staff."

Mr Zoat · Mar 10, 2024

Darko said:
"return you"

Thank you, corrected.

Hey, it's not like your people are doing better right now.

Actually, they are. While in absolute terms the fighting since Ra's death makes 1910-1950 look like a minor border skirmish, in relative terms System Lord controlled space is a lot more peaceful than Earth.

RichardWhereat · Mar 10, 2024

Only a teensy bit louder than a ma'tok staff.

moralrelativity · Mar 10, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
He nearly drops the magazine as it falls into his hand; perhaps it was just expecting it to come loose?

perhaps it was -> perhaps he was

Duke Long · Mar 10, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
No doubt Lord Mahes complained about me treating war as exercise in logistics?"

'an exercise'?

Chojin Patriarch · Mar 10, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
Later that day

"Look familiar?"

Second Prime Abrax takes hold of the automatic rifle I shamelessly copied from those SG7 pointed at me. We're in the armoury, which seemed like the best place for him to get a feel for the new weapons before we draft a plan for our wargames.

Now, let's see what he makes of Earth technology. Given the location, it's obviously a weapon, of course. And the upside of modern guns is their relative ease of use, once you grasp the basics of gun safety.

"Clearly, it is a-" He spots the trigger and pointedly keeps his fingers away from it. "-weapon of some sort, Lord." He looks at the magazine, goes to open his mouth and then hesitates. "No, Lord. I am not familiar with it."

"Abrax. Your master Lord Mahes is a God of War. That is his domain, and his mastery of it is rivalled only by other war gods. I am a God of Trade. My understanding of economics is superb, but my understanding of war is far more limited. No doubt Lord Mahes complained about me treating war as exercise in logistics?"

Good trigger discipline. And don't undersell the power of logistics and a secure supply chain. Without transport, an army cannot reach the battlefield quickly. Without ammunition, an army cannot fight as well as it could.

Without food, an army starves.

He hesitates again. "My god did inform me that it is unlikely that we would be sent into battle soon."

I nod. "You are here because I can't possibly produce products for sale without knowing what the end user desires. So speak to me as a warrior to an armourer."

Heh. Might be pushing your luck getting that informal a response.

He looks at me askance. "That is not-. Ah, I do not question you, Lord Mammon. It-. This-."

I wave my right hand. "Speak freely and without care, Abrax. The worst I will do is return you to your god, and it is paramount that you and I understand one another in this exercise."

Probably less of a punishment than Abrax would expect, even if he understands that Paulmon isn't your typical Goa'uld.

"I do not… Understand."

I raise my eyebrows. "Can you narrow it down a little?"

He seems all at sea when he's not expected to be worshipful. Definitely not accustomed to a more relaxed environment.

"Your manner, Lord. No god I have heard speaks as a mortal speaks, yet…"

He's tense. Bastet's underlords are less inclined to execute their jaffa and human followers for doing what they're told in a displeasing way than some, but there are still some fairly definite red lines.

Which seems like a rather sloppy way to do it. Consider the investment in time and training each Jaffa represents. Executing one because they dared to have a modicum of independent thought?

"A king gives commands. A general issues orders. A merchant converses. People are far more likely to buy from someone who they like. That's why I don't usually bother with the voice. But if it would make you happier, I could do so?"

He nods. "It is… What I am accustomed to."

Just not the same without the bass reverb, huh?

"Very well. What else?"

"You tolerated the heretic speaking out in your court." He frowns, grimacing. "The child spoke in ignorance, and I understand why you were merciful. But I do not understand why you tolerated such blatant disrespect."

Why make an example when you can teach a lesson? And besides, I doubt the SGC would appreciate their people being executed for something as foolish and minor as that.

"Because she's too useful to discard. Because we do simplify things for our followers, and as mine learn more they need to know how they are supposed to deal with understanding what their grandparents would have simply called 'magic' and avoided thinking about. Because my job is to persuade those who disagree with me to see things my way, and sometimes that cannot be done in a single meeting."

In other words, a bit of 'It's above your pay grade, soldier' mixed with a bit of 'gods move in mysterious ways.'

He's still frowning, but he nods.

"Now, that weapon. Tell me your impressions."

Good plan, distract him with work instead of peculiar behaviour.

"It is… Short." He grips the stock, squeezing and shaking it to try and determine how solid it is. "As a melee weapon it has poor reach, through it may be more manoeuvrable than a Ma'Tok and so negate the need."

I nod. "There's an attachment point for a knife on the barrel, but the designers generally assumed that it would be used almost entirely for shooting."

Because of course they expected someone would feel a need to fix bayonets.

I assume it's an M16 rifle or MP5 SMG, rather than the iconic P90. More logical for real-world American forces than a fancy and less common submachingegun.

He holds the stock in his right hand and lightly grips the magazine with his left. "This is the source of its power?"

"No. Where a Ma'Tok staff or a Zat'nik'tel use a liquid power source that can fuel thousands of shots, these weapons use solid ammunition which is propelled by an alchemical explosive. It can fire only those shots physically placed inside. That-" I point to the magazine. "-is their container. Just press-" I point to the magazine release. "-there."

One of the limitations of Earth weapons, though. Limited capacity and the need to carry reloads, compared to Goa'uld energy weaponry. On the other hand, much higher rate of fire.

He moves the hand on the stock to hold the middle section of the gun, then presses the release. He nearly drops the magazine as it falls into his hand; perhaps it was just expecting it to come loose? Then he lifts it up to he can examine the rounds.

"They seem… Small."

Only about three inches long. Still, they can do a surprising amount of damage, especially to people not expecting to get shot.

"They hit with considerably less force than-." Hm. "It just occurred to me that you have only used the standard issue Ma'Tok staff."

"I do not understand, Lord."

Ah, yes. The TV version. As in 'one simple squib and minimal acting out the hit'...

"The version issued to Ra's forces has a little more kick to it. A privilege of being sworn to the Supreme System Lord. A hit from a normal Ma'Tok will burn a hole in a man's chest. Ra's version would cave his chest in and send him flying as if kicked by a mule as well. But you are correct. Each bullet hits with far less force than a blast from a Ma'Tok staff."

...As opposed to the movie's 'deluxe pyrotechnics and wire-yank' version.

His frown deepens as he slots the magazine back into the gun and then shifts it to a from-the-hip firing position. Realising that that's clearly incorrect, he raises it to the off-the-shoulder position jaffa use for aimed staff shots. Then he thinks for a moment and moves it so that the stock rests against his shoulder instead.

"Is this correct, Lord?"

Impressive. Able to work out a correct posture just from the ergonomics of the weapon's shape.

"Just so."

"The small metal circle above the barrel is a sight. The magazine allows the ammunition to be drawn-." He moves the rifle off so that he can examine it again. "No. There is no source of power. It is purely mechanical. The ammunition is fed into the launching mechanism."

Yes, very impressive indeed. I suppose he can also work out that the charging handle along the receiver would cycle a round or clear the chamber.

He moves to a firing lane and releases the magazine again before putting it on the bench. Then he returns the rifle to his shoulder and pulls the trigger, which does not move. Frowning, he lower the gun and looks it over for a moment before finding the safety switch. He can't read the writing, but there are only three settings. He selects the first, single shot. Then he raises it to his shoulder and aims at the target.

Click.

Honestly, this seems typical for senior Jaffa. True masters of arms. Though specific bits like cleaning and maintenance might be a little tougher to work out without instruction.

"It is a hammer. A contact trigger. It strikes the ammunition. What is the delay between shots?"

"Less than a second. If you move that dial again, it will continue to fire again and again until the magazine is empty. Thirty shots, though there are larger versions."

No need to point out that the larger the gun, the less portable it is, he's familiar enough with that concept from the larger staff-based weapons like the emplaced Staff Cannon or the gliders' armaments.

"I can see an advantage against an unarmoured foe, but against armoured jaffa surely it would achieve little?"

"That depends on their armour. Many gods only equip their jaffa with light armour, designed to absorb fire from energy weapons. These kinetic weapons will pierce it."

Especially when that 'light armour' includes things like a bare midriff.

To be fair, Ra probably wasn't expecting any significant trouble, so why have his guards wear full-body armour?

His frown deepens, then he raps his knuckles against his own trinium heavy plate. "And against my armour?"

"Not easily. They would have to hit the joints, or shoot the eyes of your helmet to force you to expose your head. Or use a larger version."

Pretty sure a 50 calibre machine-gun would punch holes in his armour and him. Just a bit less likely to appear in a light firefight, though. Unless you're like Kawalsky.

He nods, returning the magazine to the gun. "This weapon seems… Simple, compared to the workings of the gods."

"Its designers are the tau'ri. The humans of the original human homeworld. They have no god to instruct them in the higher magics, but they have made considerable progress in mastering the lower ones by themselves."

And sometimes, simple is better. Even if modern guns are a bit fiddlier than an old arquebus or musket, the latter are still easy enough to produce with limited tech bases. Can't make a staff weapon with a forge and some iron. (Although such a gun might be more of a 'gonne' without good metalworking skills and precise machining.)

"If they have no god, then who do they make war upon?"

"Oh, each other. In the three thousand years since Ra left I don't think a single year has gone by without one group on their world making war upon another."

...Fairly accurate. Though sometimes the wars are quite small.

He shakes his head. "Foolish, and wasteful. They should be conquered and corrected as swiftly as possible."

I nod. "A fine warrior's answer. But I am a merchant. Now, try firing it. Though I will-"

And war is good for business and the advancement of technology, after all. Especially if you can sell weapons to all belligerent parties.

He raises the gun and fires, bullet narrowing missing the bull's-eye as he winces at the BANG.

"-warn you that it's a little louder than a Ma'Tok staff."

Might want to make some ear protection before he goes deaf.

I'm guessing the jaffa will be using low-lethality 'paintball' ammo in wargames, learning how Earth weapons work and the like. Which means that they'll know what to expect if they have to work with or against SGC troops. Though no doubt Paulmon means to assemble militia forces on his world as a stopgap between 'unprotected' and 'jaffa-guarded'... Either way, interesting to see how well Abrax took to the gun.

Darko · Mar 10, 2024

Chojin Patriarch said:
One of the limitations of Earth weapons, though. Limited capacity and the need to carry reloads, compared to Goa'uld energy weaponry. On the other hand, much higher rate of fire.

Plus a gun would be easier to aim than a large staff.

jasonh23761 · Mar 10, 2024

Ah, the joy of competent subordinates.

WereDragon · Mar 10, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
"They hit with considerably less force than-." Hm. "It just occurred to me that you have only used the standard issue Ma'Tok staff."

"I do not understand, Lord."

"The version issued to Ra's forces has a little more kick to it. A privilege of being sworn to the Supreme System Lord. A hit from a normal Ma'Tok will burn a hole in a man's chest. Ra's version would cave his chest in and send him flying as if kicked by a mule as well. But you are correct. Each bullet hits with far less force than a blast from a Ma'Tok staff."

"That depends on their armour. Many gods only equip their jaffa with light armour, designed to absorb fire from energy weapons. These kinetic weapons will pierce it."

His frown deepens, then he raps his knuckles against his own trinium heavy plate. "And against my armour?"

"Not easily. They would have to hit the joints, or shoot the eyes of your helmet to force you to expose your head. Or use a larger version."

Always good to see the interchangeable mooks be a bit less interchangeable.

Doubt slug-throwers will catch on with the Jaffa. The magnitudinous increase in logistical footprint on every level outweigh any improvement in firepower.
A rebuilt Ma'Tok with better ergonomics might serve.

Second Prime Abrax

Commendable deductive reasoning for a martial specialist. Examining unknown weapons is normally the task of engineers and scientists.

Mr Zoat · Mar 10, 2024

moralrelativity said:
perhaps it was -> perhaps he was

Duke Long said:
'an exercise'?

Thank you, corrected.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Especially when that 'light armour' includes things like a bare midriff. To be fair, Ra probably wasn't expecting any significant trouble, so why have his guards wear full-body armour?

Nope. Fully armoured, Jackson's using a dinky pistol and barely aiming.

webxro · Mar 10, 2024

Also projectile weapons are good at delivering specific ordinance, like a grain of naq and a grain of potassium with a small barrier of something between them, the impact squishes the soft tip and forces the naq and potassium to touch and make a 9mm explode with the force of a grenade.

Lord Ernest · Mar 10, 2024

I had a bit of a laugh at Paulmon having to use his "god voice" because Abrax wasn't comfortable with that level of casualness.

Otherwise, fairly impressive how quickly the Jaffa was able to grasp the use and functionality of a relatively unknown weapon, but he is the Second Prime of a War-focused God so it makes sense.

Still, while projectile weapons can have their benefits, with the Goa'uld tech-base and knowledge that Paulmon has, surely he can do better. Like the plasma repeater that Anubis later develops or some manner of mini-rocket launcher if projectile weapons are to added to the arsenal. Just saying, I've been playing Helldivers 2 and those are pretty satisfactory to use.

iamnuff · Mar 10, 2024

Welp, if the magazine is on the bottom, it's not a P90.

And yeah, bullets seem to go through jaffa armour real well, and they shoot a LOT faster than a staff weapon.

Especially in groups.

The biggest reason for their effectiveness though, is probably because Jaffa don't take cover.

They stand in lines and shoot like napoleonic-era soldiers.
Which makes sense, I guess, given that they're armed with what are essentially plasma-muskets.

Impartial Panic · Mar 10, 2024

webxro said:
Also projectile weapons are good at delivering specific ordinance, like a grain of naq and a grain of potassium with a small barrier of something between them, the impact squishes the soft tip and forces the naq and potassium to touch and make a 9mm explode with the force of a grenade.

Yeah that'll ruin everyone in the general areas day including the shooter.
That bullet is now a pocket nuke.

Microscopic amounts make a good sized explosive

Bolo · Mar 10, 2024

I'm sure a warrior of his caliber would see the benefit of a handgun as a backup weapon if anything else.
Paul must have copied all the weapons the team had not just the big flashy stuff.
For the stronger Jaffa a more powerful hand gun might be worth it.

Lord Ernest · Mar 10, 2024

Bolo said:
I'm sure a warrior of his caliber would see the benefit of a handgun as a backup weapon if anything else.
Paul must have copied all the weapons the team had not just the big flashy stuff.
For the stronger Jaffa a more powerful hand gun might be worth it.

I don't know about that, a Zat'nik'tel is already plenty powerful as a sidearm. One shot disables you completely, be it with incapacitating pain or unconsciousness, and 2 shots kill you, it doesn't matter where those hits are as far as I'm aware.

Mr Zoat · Mar 10, 2024

Lord Ernest said:
I don't know about that, a Zat'nik'tel is already plenty powerful as a sidearm. One shot disables you completely, be it with incapacitating pain or unconsciousness, and 2 shots kill you, it doesn't matter where those hits are as far as I'm aware.

And don't forget that it has a much higher rate of fire. Unless your enemy has a personal force field, there isn't much reason to take a Ma'Tok at all. Unless it's early in SG1 and the writers haven't invented them yet.

Bolo · Mar 10, 2024

I was thinking more like a knife, in simple always works backup weapon in case of hightech energy no work field….
Besides once it's up engineered/tech it should be Better than Earth guns.

Vaermina · Mar 10, 2024

Mr Zoat said:
"Not easily. They would have to hit the joints, or shoot the eyes of your helmet to force you to expose your head. Or use a larger version."

Or switch to armor piercing rounds like they did in SG:1.

ForeverShogo · Mar 10, 2024

Must also be before they upgraded to the P90, in part because it had better armor penetration than the MP-5s they started out with. Well, that and the described weapon has a 30 round magazine. The P90 magazine holds 50 rounds.

As for why they used P90s instead of M16s . . . Probably because they decided the benefits of a Personal Defense Weapon made it better suited to SG operations. They're more compact, lightweight, easy to control and use, have a better close range effectiveness, and still allow you to use rifle rounds unlike when using a sub-machine gun.

And there really wasn't a competitor yet when it came to PDWs. The Stargate Program was running missions starting in the late 90s. Heckler and Koch didn't create a competitor, the MP7, until 2001.

There is an American made PDW, the AR-57, that wasn't designed until 2008, which is basically when Stargate ended. It's basically an M-16 modified to function as a PDW, and even then the AR-57 still uses P90 magazines.

Anyway, they aren't really widely adopted by militaries in general. But they're pretty popular with police, special forces, and anti-terrorist units as a direct upgrade to sub-machine guns.

Vaermina · Mar 10, 2024

Lord Ernest said:
I had a bit of a laugh at Paulmon having to use his "god voice" because Abrax wasn't comfortable with that level of casualness.

Otherwise, fairly impressive how quickly the Jaffa was able to grasp the use and functionality of a relatively unknown weapon, but he is the Second Prime of a War-focused God so it makes sense.

Still, while projectile weapons can have their benefits, with the Goa'uld tech-base and knowledge that Paulmon has, surely he can do better. Like the plasma repeater that Anubis later develops or some manner of mini-rocket launcher if projectile weapons are to added to the arsenal. Just saying, I've been playing Helldivers 2 and those are pretty satisfactory to use.

The Goa'uld he ate was at the bottom ring of the Goa'uld totem pole.

Which means he shouldn't have more then the very basic Goa'uld tech knowledge that the multi generations of Queens were willing to impart to her children.

Galler · Mar 10, 2024

Vaermina said:
The Goa'uld he ate was at the bottom ring of the Goa'uld totem pole.

Which means he shouldn't have more then the very basic Goa'uld tech knowledge that the multi generations of Queens were willing to impart to her children.

I think that the Goa'uld that was assimilated was a bit above the "bottom ring". Which isn't to say that he high up or impressive, just that most Goa'uld don't even rule over a planet and have to content themselves with fighting for position under them.

Vaermina · Mar 10, 2024

Galler said:
I think that the Goa'uld that was assimilated was a bit above the "bottom ring". Which isn't to say that he high up or impressive, just that most Goa'uld don't even rule over a planet and have to content themselves with fighting for position under them.

Ruling over a planet, under another Goa'uld, is the lowest rank of Goa'uld.

Rogos · Mar 10, 2024

Vaermina said:
Ruling over a planet, under another Goa'uld, is the lowest rank of Goa'uld.

Aren't there a lot of Goa'uld who don't even have their own planet, instead serving as scientists and administrators under more powerful ones ?

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