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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Pez said:
In normal DC canon, the Forever People were normal humans that were 'adopted' by New Genesis. In YJ canon, I believe they are actual New Gods. In story canon... I don't remember. I'd default to New Gods, though they aren't very powerful ones. From their on screen abilities and powers, othern than their ability to turn into Infinity Man, I would put them below Wonder Woman in terms of strength and skill. I'd consider them comperable to Captain Atom.
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I think in story with renegade they where almost beaten by regular gangsters.
 
DAT_NOOB said:
I think in story with renegade they where almost beaten by regular gangsters.
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Darko said:
Who had powerful weaponry and the help of a powerful New God, Desaad.

He may not be the greatest of Darkseids Elite, but the fact that he's a member should speak volumes of how dangerous he can be.
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Exactly. There's a reason why Batman pretty much wins every fight against Superman. Cunning, planning, deviousness, and strategy play a large part. Even Black Canary beat Superboy, who has Wonder Woman level of strength.

Desaad, while not a physical powerhouse, is a mad scientist (God of Torture?). His entire plan was to capture Infinity Man. And simply being a New God doesn't make one strong, as there are a lot of factors to it. It's why Barda is stronger than her husband. Her domain is something physical, while Miracle's isn't. Hell, Barda is probably physically stronger than Renegade without his Rings.
 
Pez said:
Exactly. There's a reason why Batman pretty much wins every fight against Superman. Cunning, planning, deviousness, and strategy play a large part. Even Black Canary beat Superboy, who has Wonder Woman level of strength.

Desaad, while not a physical powerhouse, is a mad scientist (God of Torture?). His entire plan was to capture Infinity Man. And simply being a New God doesn't make one strong, as there are a lot of factors to it. It's why Barda is stronger than her husband. Her domain is something physical, while Miracle's isn't. Hell, Barda is probably physically stronger than Renegade without his Rings.
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I think one of the biggest weaknesses the Forever People had was their arrogance.

They thought that beating a bunch of primitives would be easy, and they also thought that beating Desaad would also be easy due to him not being much of a physical threat and his cowardly nature.

They're probably very skilled and talented New Gods when they get serious, but if they don't then they can be beaten.

They're a lot like the Team. Powerful and skilled when they want to be, but tend to fall short due to personal problems and overconfidence.
 
Pez said:
I'm not seeing this, nor buying the theories of a big space version of the Light moving against Paul. If Dox didn't want Paragon around, he could have just left him on Earth. Paragon is a bit of a sub when it comes to taking orders. Plus, I doubt the Controllers would like to lose their most powerful Lantern.

And the Ophidian would definitely not be happy to lose her Agent.

Dox wouldn't have risked the entire fleet just to kill Paul. He could have arranged Paul to lead a strike force into a Reach stronghold that had a thoushand Beetles waiting for them.

This is just a massive comic plot coincidence.
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This all relays on Dox not going Orange crazy while Paul was gone. Rational choice, no not great. But as someone going crazy with greed, i can easily see it. it seemed like the OL's going on the first attack with Paul were the more impulsive ones who don't follow orders as well. Removing all the difficult ones in a single moment and (maybe he planned to kill Grayven immediatly after and secure his position.) Maybe they werent working togethor but Dox was waiting for GRayven to make a move on the reach, and he was going to hit both at same time.

I'm not saying we have a space version of the Light(that comes from Agent Orange and i think it could be cool if so but this is a 2 person, one off deal kind of thing in my mind.), only that I don't think Dox wants to share the Corp anymore and he colluded with/planned around Grayvens own invasion. I feel Grayven and Dox both want the Corp. Maybe the real reason it was so sudden, was to surprise Grayven instead of the Reach because Dox saw he was going for a REach world and wanted both enemies reeling..

Pez said:
Exactly. There's a reason why Batman pretty much wins every fight against Superman. Cunning, planning, deviousness, and strategy play a large part. Even Black Canary beat Superboy, who has Wonder Woman level of strength.
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The reason is popularity. Batman makes up nearly half of DC sales, so unless it changes Batman is the key for DC. (I'm not knocking Batman, only saying in a vs its popularity 90% of the time that determines a winner so this is a bad example because it always comes down to Batman ambushing/suprising Superman. In a fair fight in an arena this would be very different and Bane/Grundy is a better example.) Both have been shown around supermans strength depending on continuity, and Batmans consistant defeats of them show the tactical mind thing. because batman vs superman is always about popularity not unbiased facts.
 
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Maybe Dox is busy Brainiacing Grayven's Father Box to take control and/or diplomancy it into turning over the dreadnought, and saw part of the Anti-Life powering it which BSOD'd him or made him go mad from the implications.
 
Darko said:
Who had powerful weaponry and the help of a powerful New God, Desaad.

He may not be the greatest of Darkseids Elite, but the fact that he's a member should speak volumes of how dangerous he can be.
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Actually Zoat has indicated that "powerful apokalyptic weaponry" were practically toys by Apokalips standards, and that the Forever People would have been hurt worse by regular old guns.

There might be alien "allies" that Darkseid trusts enough with actually good weapons, but Intergang ain't among them, you see.

Pez said:
I
In normal DC canon, the Forever People were normal humans that were 'adopted' by New Genesis. In YJ canon, I believe they are actual New Gods. In story canon... I don't remember. I'd default to New Gods, though they aren't very powerful ones. From their on screen abilities and powers, othern than their ability to turn into Infinity Man, I would put them below Wonder Woman in terms of strength and skill. I'd consider them comperable to Captain Atom.
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While DC did once establish that the Forever People were uplifted humans, that got retconned later on.

In fact Vykin's mother Valkyra taught Orion how to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and if she hadn't died Vykin would probably be calling Orion daddy.

And Captain Atom is coated in nigh indestructable metal while the Forever People were knocked out by weapons that Superboy shrugged off, so no need to insult Captain Atom like that. :)
 
Stsword said:
And Captain Atom is coated in nigh indestructable metal while the Forever People were knocked out by weapons that Superboy shrugged off, so no need to insult Captain Atom like that.
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Eh. The durability of CA's shell hasn't been tested or explained in the YJ canon. In JLU, we saw it get breached fighting the giant nuclear robot thing. In the Batman/Superman: Public Enemies movie, we saw Power Girl breach Major Force's (?) suit with a punch.

I know that in comic canon, his suit is made out of that strange alien flesh that required an X-Ioniser to cut, and since X-Ioniser's exist in YJ, I would assume his suit is made of the same material.

My comment about CA's strength is more regarding his power output and speed. We never see him do much on screen, but what little I remember seeing, didn't leave me impressed.

And... I'll say that weapons against Superboy are inconsistant. He shrugs off Apokolyptian weapons, but we see in the first Santa Prisca mission that Sportsmaster is able to push him back with just some kind of standard energy weapon (plasma bolt thrower, maybe?).
 
Pez said:
Eh. The durability of CA's shell hasn't been tested or explained in the YJ canon. In JLU, we saw it get breached fighting the giant nuclear robot thing. In the Batman/Superman: Public Enemies movie, we saw Power Girl breach Major Force's (?) suit with a punch.

I know that in comic canon, his suit is made out of that strange alien flesh that required an X-Ioniser to cut, and since X-Ioniser's exist in YJ, I would assume his suit is made of the same material.

My comment about CA's strength is more regarding his power output and speed. We never see him do much on screen, but what little I remember seeing, didn't leave me impressed.

And... I'll say that weapons against Superboy are inconsistant. He shrugs off Apokolyptian weapons, but we see in the first Santa Prisca mission that Sportsmaster is able to push him back with just some kind of standard energy weapon (plasma bolt thrower, maybe?).
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I assumed Apokolyptian weapons are more sould based instead of mass based. So in Santa Prisca he only weighs 200ish lbs so gets pushed back by physics. while the new god tech only would do so if Connors soul was weaker. (I do agree he has inconsistant damage but this one had bother me already until i decided on a reason, probably explained by him having been in cave longer that day or something)
 
Stsword said:
Actually Zoat has indicated that "powerful apokalyptic weaponry" were practically toys by Apokalips standards, and that the Forever People would have been hurt worse by regular old guns.

There might be alien "allies" that Darkseid trusts enough with actually good weapons, but Intergang ain't among them, you see.
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But they still had the help of a powerful and high ranking New God, whose people can buff their allies as we've seen in this story, so maybe aside from giving them some tech Desaad also gave them some divine assistance.
 
Darko said:
But they still had the help of a powerful and high ranking New God, whose people can buff their allies as we've seen in this story, so maybe aside from giving them some tech Desaad also gave them some divine assistance.
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Isn't that an aspect of their domains, or am I misremembering that power that Zoat added to the New Gods?
 
Over Reaching (part 12)
  • Threadmarks
    • 3rd July 2012
    10:29 GMT -5

    Oh. I… Think I vaguely remember that he was one of Darkseid's offspring, created because the writers thought that they were devaluing Darkseid by showing him being constantly beaten by everyone. Notable victories included killing Darkstars… And I can't think of anything else.

    "Nice work with the Reach fleet. Councillor Vayneek told me that his clan was interested in attacking the Reach, but he didn't mention that his clan chief was Apokoliptian."

    Now that I get a closer look, the tron lines on the front of his cuirass look like a more high-tech version of the clan insignia. That makes sense; he'd wear it because it shows he's in charge, but there's no way he'd paint it on himself and his flesh would regenerate a tattoo.

    "How do you know of my people?"

    "S-." I frown, then smile. "Your brother Scott Free lives on my homeworld."

    There's no obvious reaction to that news, though assuming he's actually in touch with Apokolips then he now knows where I come from.

    "You do know me, then."

    "Know of you. I mean, I knew a New God was involved the moment the boom tube appeared, and I guessed 'Apokoliptian' due to the way your followers conducted themselves, but I didn't know you were in charge. I didn't know what you looked like until you introduced yourself just now."

    "And you. What are you?"

    "I am the Illustres of the Orange Lantern Corps. And as-."

    "No. Not that. You do not feel entirely mortal."

    "I was bonded to the Embodiment of Avarice for a week a year and a half ago. The experience -and the recovery from it- changed me. Look, can we… Talk about the Reach?"

    "Yes." "Acquiesce."

    There it.. is again.

    "Please don't do that."

    "I do what I like."

    "Does 'what you like' include starting a fight with the Embodiment of Avarice right here? Scott explained that spiritual communication thing you New Gods do-."

    "He did not. He lacks the knowledge that would be required. Still, I can be satisfied that you are not wholly ignorant. But, no. I will not still my soul for your benefit."

    "In that case we will speak with you in the manner in which you are accustomed."

    A clear expression of disquiet on his face as we regard all that he is. The structures of his desires are more alive than those we are accustomed to, more bound up in the material, acting on it and directing it and in turn-.

    "Banish your creature!" "You Are Not Worthy!"

    "We are not so separate that one can banish the other, but since it offends you so much, I will make a temporary accommodation."

    His eyes are glowing red-. Ah, yes, he has a scaled-down version of the omega beam, doesn't he. I wonder how scaled down? Conflict with Darkseid is inevitable, and it would be infinitely preferable to have some idea if plan 'stick something in the way' is actually a viable tactic.

    "The New God religion says that each of you embodies a fraction of the Source, doesn't it? The divide between me and the Ophidian is a little unclear. But: the Reach."

    He remains staring at me as his eyes dim.

    "This ship is the Absolute Dominion. A New God warship crafted to fight in our earliest wars and made whole anew at my direction. It is unimaginably superior to anything the Reach can field."

    I nod. "And your gordanians have a rare discipline. I take it you've worked on them as well?"

    "Their minds and souls are now as strong as their bodies. They can never be my equals, but they are most excellent tools for extending my domain."

    "I had been under the impression that Apokolips was out of the military conquest business."

    "I do not do this for Apokolips. I act in my own name, under my own banner."

    "Ah. Good for you. Because we're really not ready to fight Darkseid."

    That actually gets a small smirk.

    "No. You are not."

    "But he's the target, isn't he? In the end. He can't tolerate anyone being independent of him, not in the long run."

    "I have no interest in indulging you. I will tell you what I will do. I will destroy the Reach as a political body. The survivors will become mine, and I will rule over them as I see fit."

    "I have no particular objection to you taking and administering that territory, but… The worlds conquered by the Reach but still occupied by their original inhabitants must be returned to them."

    "They can live under my reign, equal to my other tools. The Reach destroy theirs too readily." "Such inefficient statecraft offends me."

    "Well… We're not going to be releasing any worlds we liberate to you, though we'll be happy to help you undo the Reach's programming on any worlds you liberate."

    "I have no need for your aid."

    "Alright. Then… Why are we talking? If you don't want anything and aren't offering anything, I don't understand the point."

    "I wished to look you in the eye. Your shield was not inconsiderable in magnitude. If I did not know who you are, my eventual triumph over you would have less… Weight."

    "Can.. we at least agree to fight the Reach first?"

    "If you stay out of my way, I will not seek you out."

    "I'll… Take that. Um, thank you. Good luck with your war against the Reach, I hope you don't die until right near the end."

    He actually smiles.

    "I hope that you die to no hand but mine."

    "Ah… I already died once. Burning sword through the skull."

    "I will make sure that mine is more…" His eyes light up again. "Thorough."

    …

    "Ah. Okay?" I raise my right fore and index finger to my forehead and give him a demi-salute. "I'll.. be seeing you, then."

    I step-.

    …

    His smile broadens.

    Be like that, then.

    We step into him, twisting and bending his desire networks, leaving him writhing in confusion before we finally leave, heading after our fleet and our Lanterns. As a New God he will recover in short order, but perhaps he will learn some manners? But now, we have a victory to earn.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Godspeech for the Invisitext impaired.
    Mr Zoat said:
    "I was bonded to the Embodiment of Avarice for a week a year and a half ago. The experience -and the recovery from it- changed me. Look, can we… Talk about the Reach?"

    "Yes." "Acquiesce."
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    A clear expression of disquiet on his face as we regard all that he is. The structures of his desires are more alive than those we are accustomed to, more bound up in the material, acting on it directing and in turn-.

    "Banish your creature!" "You Are Not Worthy!"
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    "I have no particular objection to you taking and administering that territory, but… The worlds conquered by the Reach but still occupied by their original inhabitants must be returned to them."

    "They can live under my reign, equal to my other tools. The Reach destroy theirs too readily." "Such inefficient statecraft offends me."
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    Mr Zoat said:
    We step into him, twisting and bending his desire networks, leaving him writhing in confusion before we finally leave, heading after our fleet and our Lanterns. As a New God he will recover in short order, but perhaps he will learn some manners? But now, we have a victory to earn.
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    That was stupid of you, now he will work to defend against that sort of thing in the future.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    We step into him, twisting and bending his desire networks, leaving him writhing in confusion before we finally leave, heading after our fleet and our Lanterns. As a New God he will recover in short order, but perhaps he will learn some manners? But now, we have a victory to earn.
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    Exactly how mad will Grayven be at Paul for doing this?

    Vaermina said:
    That was stupid of you, now he will work to defend against that sort of thing in the future.
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    That was always a given, especially since Grayven is more experienced with using Godspeech and the power of ones soul. This at least makes sure that Grayven will be more wary of Paul in the future, meaning he won't be so gung-ho about doing anything against the Orange Lantern Corps directly.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    "Alright. Then… Why are we talking? If you don't want anything and aren't offering anything, I don't understand the point."

    "I wished to look you in the eye. Your shield was not inconsiderable in magnitude. If I did not know who you are, my eventual triumph over you would have less… Weight."
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    "I'll… Take that. Um, thank you. Good luck with your war against the Reach, I hope you don't die until right near the end."

    He actually smiles.

    "I hope that you die to no hand but mine."

    "Ah… I already died once. Burning sword through the skull."

    "I will make sure that mine is more…" His eyes light up again. "Thorough."
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    Looks like Grayven considers Paul a worthy enemy.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    Oh. I… Think I vaguely remember that he was one of Darkseid's offspring, created because the writers thought that they were devaluing Darkseid by showing him being constantly beaten by everyone. Notable victories included killing Darkstars… And I can't think of anything else.
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    Yeah, he's not the most well known New God around.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "And you. What are you?"
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    That's complicated.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "I do what I like."
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    And I like what I do.

    Mr Zoat said:
    He did not. He lacks the knowledge that would be required.
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    Ah, he has a Mother Box and has been in contact with New Genesis, so he most likely has the knowledge.

    Mr Zoat said:
    acting on it directing and in turn-.
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    maybe 'acting on it, directing' maybe add a comma there

    Mr Zoat said:
    "Ah. Good for you. Because we're really not ready to fight Darkseid."
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    Few are.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "They can live under my reign, equal to my other tools. The Reach destroy theirs too readily." "Such inefficient statecraft offends me."
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    So he's a bit like renegade.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "I hope that you die to no hand but mine."
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    This felt like a Sontaran compliment.
     
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