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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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BartlettMagic said:
is it wrong of me to be more concerned for Lantern Gozzi's wellbeing than OL's?
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Depends how you mean 'wrong'. Being more worried for a junior who might not know how to survive rather than a veteran who you might expect to be able to handle things isn't particularly unreasonable. If it helps, Lantern Gozzi's about half way across the system and while qwa-matter weapons are potent they're more 'intense' than 'expansive'.
 
Mr Zoat said:
qwa-matter weapons are potent they're more 'intense' than 'expansive'
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Has Wonder Woman ever used the qwa-sword Paragon gifted her with? How does it compare with the magical god-crafted weapons she should have access to? Has Hephaestus or Io forged her an even more potent new weapon taking advantage of the arcanotech revolution?
 
DrThoth said:
Has Wonder Woman ever used the qwa-sword Paragon gifted her with?
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Gods no. 'Hey, Diana! Here's a sword from a people who worship an evil God of Destruction. Ain't it neat!'
How does it compare with the magical god-crafted weapons she should have access to?
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Pretty well. It will have better long term performance away from Earth. Broadly comparable against anything other than high-end arcane foes otherwise.
Has Hephaestus or Io forged her an even more potent new weapon taking advantage of the arcanotech revolution?
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No, but they'll have them available if she asks.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Pretty well. It will have better long term performance away from Earth.
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That's something I was curious about, the performance of magic materials and equipment away from thaumically active places. Paragon traded some oricalchum early on in his space exploits, I believe. Exactly how long would they last in magic-poor settings?

Is New God tech different in this regard because of their reliance on their Source?

I'm also wondering about arcane-based life forms like Nabu, Diana and Captain Marvel and Adom.
 
DrThoth said:
That's something I was curious about, the performance of magic materials and equipment away from thaumically active places. Paragon traded some oricalchum early on in his space exploits, I believe. Exactly how long would they last in magic-poor settings?

Is New God tech different in this regard because of their reliance on their Source?

I'm also wondering about arcane-based life forms like Nabu, Diana and Captain Marvel and Adom.
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Answers below are provisional and somewhat off the cuff.

Captain Marvel and Adom would be unable to change away from Earth but would otherwise be unaffected.

Nabu mainlines order and is minimally affected.

Some of Diana's higher order abilities wouldn't work as well, but she hardly uses those anyway.

New God technology and physiology works slightly less well, but it's basically fine.
 
Lone Courier 6 said:
I wish there were some meaningful consequences for Paul here, but no only Grayven seems to get those, ten bucks says Paul bounces back from this in less than 3 chapters, any takers?
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Given that the Qwa matter was in orange, I'm not entirely sure that it was even something that was being done to OL.

Beyond that, I enjoyed the Hell out of OL being the planetary threat he clearly is, instead of having his every effort tanked or brushed aside because magic or other shenanigans.

As for Grayven....what "meaningful" consequences?

He lost Jade: Big whoop, cost him nothing really.

He got anti-lifed: He got better.

He's basically killed and smashed through his every opposition and is arguably even farther along with his uplift than OL is. He's achieved pretty much every goal he's set for himself and is roaring forward.

I swear, every time OL does literally anything and doesn't get his ass kicked, people bitch.

I mean fuck, guys. Para-Paul has a power ring, THE most powerful weapon in the universe. He's uniquely attuned to the light that powers it. But every time he isn't smashed back to square one, someone seems to take offense.

OL's personality and character have grown throughout the story, his situation has changed greatly, he's gone from being on a team of sidekicks (I do miss the team, but time skips must be filled) to having his own Lantern corps.

I really shouldn't be surprised. Everytime characters like Superman, Hulk, or Thor enter the scene and win a fight you see the same thing. As if them being titanically powerful isn't a large part of their character.
 
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Life is centerted on discontent/suffering/conflict. Victory is antithetical to this.
- The Unaligned Player 08/19/2020
 
Maxx Crowley said:
He lost Jade: Big whoop, cost him nothing really.

He got anti-lifed: He got better.

He's basically killed and smashed through his every opposition and is arguably even farther along with his uplift than OL is. He's achieved pretty much every goal he's set for himself and is roaring forward
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Not without setbacks, not without personal loss, and not without heartbreak...and not without growing as a person, Grayven feels much more satisfying to watch because he struggles, because while he's achieved every goal he's set for himself, it feels like he earned it, and when he half asses or takes a shortcut? It bites him in the ass and forces him to settle the issue and learn, Paul feels like a very static character ever since the 'Enlightenment' it never feels like Paul has to work for his goals in a truly meaningful way beyond Lemme just use more orange light with no drawbacks whatsoever, lemme just do this thing and watch everyone bend over backwards for me. Grayven struggles, Grayven doubts, and Grayven has something Paul doesn't. A Circle of Friends, and Family that actually convey the feeling of being important to him.

With the way Paul has moved on? He doesn't belong with The Team, and there's nothing they can provide that he can't just Power Ring his way to do better, and honestly some of his interactions feel incredibly belittling.

Grayven's actions have Consequences, and he works to rise above them and Conquer them.

Paul just wins, and I feel no tension with him.

EDIT:

Also when Jade dumped Grayven? He was heartbroken, he was depressed, he threw himself into his work and has been afraid to open up like that to another person since.

When he got Anti-Lifed? Sure, he has since recovered, but it threatened everything he held dear in such a way that it couldn't be dealt with just by applying more Orange Light, he nearly lost his ability to appreciate what truly mattered to him, and he couldn't live with that, so yes, he rushed to fix himself, but not for his own sake, but for that of those he loved and found he couldn't, and even then it wasn't a perfect fix, even now what happened has changed him as a person.

EDIT NUMBER 2:

And Grayven lost Alan, one of the biggest reasons he went to space...was to get him a new lantern, and when he came back...Alan had died two months earlier, that had it's own impact on him.
 
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Radix said:
Yeah. This seems central to the criticism to me. Greed seems to be interpreted here as something that makes SI feel better.

It made some sense with the team where he regarded them as "his" despite how creepy that was. But now it is being extended to larger causes that he cant possibly actually posess. Instead he imposes his desired order and that somehow counts when that feels more like Will.

The weaknesses of the orange light are completely purged. There is little to no downside to it.
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Hard disagree. This confuses ability with effectiveness.

You are completely correct that anyone can use an orange ring, because the desire to feel good and not feel bad is universal.

That doesn't mean that just anyone can be good at it. If fear overrides desire? That's yellow; ring fails. If you don't really want to do it but you know you have to? That's green; ring fails. If you're so mad that you just have to take action? That's red; ring fails.

The ring itself will help you with this, thanks to the mental influence coloring the way you see things. This is true of all of the rings -- of course green provides the least assistance but, regardless of color, success provides feedback that trains you to recognize the state of mind that made it work.

The reason orange rings drive people crazy is because it gives power to every little desire you have, no matter how significant, and the orange light doesn't automatically discriminate between short-term and long-term desires. This leads directly to hedonism -- everything that you want, everything that makes you feel good, everything that avoids feeling bad.

Learning how to manipulate your own desires in order to keep short-term impulses from overwhelming the things you really want deep down is significantly harder than just making an orange ring do what you want it to do. If there's something you need that you don't want to do, the ring won't respond to it, and focusing on how important it is doesn't help because that's willpower. You have to focus on the part of it that you do want and avoid putting too much emphasis on the unpleasant parts.

So... no, the weaknesses of the orange light are still well and truly present, and the only reason they don't come up more often in the story is because the main character is putting active effort into avoiding the worst case scenario before it can happen. In the Grayven story, that disadvantage doesn't come up in the story very often BECAUSE of how much of a disadvantage it is -- Grayven avoids using his orange ring because it's too hard to control it, so he leans on his other sources of power instead.
 
Lone Courier 6 said:
Not without setbacks, not without personal loss, and not without heartbreak...and not without growing as a person, Grayven feels much more satisfying to watch because he struggles, because while he's achieved every goal he's set for himself, it feels like he earned it, and when he half asses or takes a shortcut? It bites him in the ass and forces him to settle the issue and learn, Paul feels like a very static character ever since the 'Enlightenment' it never feels like Paul has to work for his goals in a truly meaningful way beyond Lemme just use more orange light with no drawbacks whatsoever, lemme just do this thing and watch everyone bend over backwards for me. Grayven struggles, Grayven doubts, and Grayven has something Paul doesn't. A Circle of Friends, and Family that actually convey the feeling of being important to him.
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What setbacks? He's gotten everything he's wanted in short order. He's wiped out and taken over the Light, seemingly killed Vandal Savage, has Luthor right where he wants him, and is currently way farther into his uplift then OL is.

What personal loss? He hasn't lost anything. Hell, every time he loses something for a second, like his orange ring or Father box, he gets a replacement in short order...AND then gets back his original thing. Rocking a yellow and orange ring, along with a mother box.

Growing as a person? He's been an asshole cosplaying someone else since he stupidly super roided himself.

Grayven has issues to deal with sure. But that's because he's constantly doing basically the dumbest thing you can do at any given point for....reasons that I've yet to understand. Starting with impersonating Darkseid's son.

Grayen achieves his goals often quicker, if messier, than OL does. Him getting all tore up and then rallying for the win isn't being forced to settle the issue and learn. Grayven has even achieved things OL has barely gotten started on. He's taken over the Light, overthrown a country or two, didn't have to deal with ANY of the Nabu issues and so on.

Grayven melee's and stupidly face-tanks a lot more than OL does. Then, if his rings don't clean up all the damage, his Father/Mother box always has answers.

And a family? Oh come on. Scott and Barda? The not actual relatives of his cosplay? (Zoat has said over and over that Mantelling isn't a thing) Ace? Is adopted Not-Daughter? His vampire monsters and ponies? He's flat out lying to all of them. Every word out of his mouth as "Grayven" is a lie. The memories and such things implanted by Father box.

Friends? He's an asshole to pretty much everyone. The members of the team that he's kinda on terms with are all ones his mutated with his Father/Mother box.

Lone Courier 6 said:
With the way Paul has moved on? He doesn't belong with The Team, and there's nothing they can provide that he can't just Power Ring his way to do better, and honestly some of his interactions feel incredibly belittling.
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And where does Grayven fit on the team he officially walked away from? The one he constantly belittled and mutated with his Father/Mother box? Speaking of Belittled, Grayven can't go five seconds without being an utter dick to the Justice league. OL at least has friendships among them and the team. He at least tries to be polite. Grayven just goes "You're a stupid stupid-head who is stupid."

Lone Courier 6 said:
Grayven's actions have Consequences, and he works to rise above them and Conquer them.
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What consequences? What are you actually talking about? The fact that his dumb choices get him beaten up for a few pages before he wins? At this point he's manipulated at least 2 worlds to get outcomes that he wants. Got nuked on the Justice Lord's world, and got everything he wanted. He's killed multiple Lords of Chaos at this point. He's alienated the team, took over the Light, alienated the Justice League, toppled a country or two and hasn't had a single backfire except that his Assassin girlfriend dumped him.

Lone Courier 6 said:
Paul just wins, and I feel no tension with him.
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I feel no tension with Grayven. He's eyerollingly comic-book-y. I should also point out that Grayven has won all the same battles as OL has. Actually, he's won MORE. OL's Unmen chapter went bad, the Light is still out there, and so on.

Lone Courier 6 said:
Also when Jade dumped Grayven? He was heartbroken, he was depressed, he threw himself into his work and has been afraid to open up like that to another person since.
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Because OL hasn't had emotional moments at all? The merging with the Ophidian, the rampant paranoia when taking off his ring to use the toilet nearly got him killed, failing to convince Lex and so on.

And Afraid to open up to another person? Really? With his ever growing collection of random people, children, ponies, and would be wives?

Though, I will be completely honest, both character's Jade topic feels completely meaningless. She's the most "Oh yeah....you're a thing." of both of them.

Lone Courier 6 said:
When he got Anti-Lifed? Sure, he has since recovered, but it threatened everything he held dear in such a way that it couldn't be dealt with just by applying more Orange Light, he nearly lost his ability to appreciate what truly mattered to him, and he couldn't live with that, so yes, he rushed to fix himself, but not for his own sake, but for that of those he loved and found he couldn't, and even then it wasn't a perfect fix, even now what happened has changed him as a person.
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I will again point out. Ponies.

His problem was fixed with My little Pony.

And as for not being solved by more orange light. No, it was solved by applying more New God-ness and PONIES. Because Grayven really isn't a lantern. He just happens to have power rings.

We'll agree to disagree, as I'm sure that's as far as we'll get. But here is how I see it.

Para-Paul: A real guy reacting to a comic book universe's insanity, who has adopted an entirely Orange mindset due to the various comic book situations that have been forced upon him. The universe has forced him to change in ways he might not even fully realize. Constantly exasperated by the same crap comic book fans are constantly exasperated by. Which apparently has a root cause in Boss Smiley.

Rene-Paul: A complete comic book character who makes comic book decisions that no rational human being would make. Who collects an ever growing pile of comic misfits whose problems he solves with Power rings and Mother boxes. Bouncing around in alternate universes, Ponies, whacky hijinks, comic shenanigans and PONIES.

(I'm sure you've noticed, but I can't take anything dealing with My little pony seriously. So there certainly isn't a scrap of "tension" there.)

Literally, every time there is a complain about OL, you know the only one of the two who has been curbstomped and KILLED, is that Ol doesn't get beaten up enough. Which is really odd considering how anything magical shits all over him, while Grayven just Mother box, divine speech, New God's all over it.

Edit 1.

Lone Courier 6 said:
And Grayven lost Alan, one of the biggest reasons he went to space...was to get him a new lantern, and when he came back...Alan had died two months earlier, that had it's own impact on him.
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Grayven being incompetent at that moment, having been a dick around Alan and alienated him rather then inspiring him like OL did, is hardly a knock against OL. After all, it wasn't like Grayven had the same relationship with Alan that OL did.

And why am I supposed to give Grayven higher marks than OL because his Renegade actions cause more damage for him? Nice mirror to the game there Zoat by the way.

Edit 2.

Just hit me. Everything about Grayven feels like goofball Filler. I finally can put a label on it.

Shooting himself up with the super drugs, Cosplaying Darkseid's child, Darkseid sitting on his couch, all his wacky shenanigans in other universes, pony-land, and the like. It's all just random, goofball comic book stuff. He's like a giant crossover event that no one asked for, but now we have to endure until we can get back to the storyline of the books we care about.

Literally anything can happen in Grayven's story. The Transformers or the TMNT could should up and it wouldn't even be worth batting an eye at.
 
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Mr Zoat said:
"Ah, Illustres."
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Who is talking to OL, why are they talking to OL, and more importantly how are they talking to OL?

Because there was never an incoming transmission message from the ring OL told the ring to put through, so it kind of feel like some disembodied voice whisper in OL's ear to taunt him. You know, while OL in the vacuum of space fighting the space baddies. Or they can hack the ring communication systems somehow guess.

EDIT:
Mr Zoat said:
Oh jumped up elementals, this.
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This Just In from The Onion: British Man Commits Suicide after being sentenced to reread his own fanfiction. All of it, from the beginning.
His last words: "It wasn't that bad, but there was just so much of it seemed like the afterlife was less of a commitment by comparison."
 
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Maxx Crowley said:
Ace? Is adopted Not-Daughter? His vampire monsters and ponies? He's flat out lying to all of them. Every word out of his mouth as "Grayven" is a lie. The memories and such things implanted by Father box.
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And yet the love between them is no lie, the lengths he'll go to for them isn't a lie. The Persona and Identity has merged with who he was, but that doesn't make the emotional bond they have any less true, the fear he had when he realized that his ability to return the love they had for him was severed, broken by the Anti-Life...and he knew he should have had for them was true, you might not be able to take it seriously because of the ponies but just because his identity is a lie that even he now believes, doesn't mean what he's done is false. He isn't Grayven son of Darkseid, but he's a New God of Conquest all the same.
 
Bramble Thorn said:
Who is talking to OL, why are they talking to OL, and more importantly how are they talking to OL?

Because there was never an incoming transmission message from the ring OL told the ring to put through, so it kind of feel like some disembodied voice whisper in OL's ear to taunt him. You know, while OL in the vacuum of space fighting the space baddies. Or they can hack the ring communication systems somehow guess.
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It's the Reach commander and they're probably using some advanced Reach science to do it.

When OL once wanted to talk to Kalmin he seemed to reply in a voice that didn't come from the ring, so maybe they're doing something similar.

PDV said:
That's not yellow. If the shields were concealing Qua matter, wouldn't it be yellow? Are we sure it's the Reach who have the qua matter here?
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His ring was alerting him of what it was, hence it being orange.
 
It's going to be interesting to see what happens when the reason the Green Lantern Corp didn't want to go to war with the Reach finally rears it's ugly head.
 
thebishop8 said:
I went looking, and yeah this seems like the first time Paragon has ever used a Purple Death Ray. I also found this:
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This could mean they were modified to work better, or more depressingly, magical things that can be used to hurt instead of heal somehow function better in outer space.

Though Paragon has used Purple Ray's in space before and I think Zoat mentioned that while they can work in a low magic environment, they're still not as good as they would be in a magical environment.
 
Darko said:
This could mean they were modified to work better, or more depressingly, magical things that can be used to hurt instead of heal somehow function better in outer space.

Though Paragon has used Purple Ray's in space before and I think Zoat mentioned that while they can work in a low magic environment, they're still not as good as they would be in a magical environment.
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Or it could be to a similar reason why New God technomagic works- The New Gods power it themselves, so the lack of ambient magic isn't a big issue.

So it may be that Paul can use it in outer space because his aura has reached the point where he can power it himself without the aid of ambient magical energy.
 
Stsword said:
Or it could be to a similar reason why New God technomagic works- The New Gods power it themselves, so the lack of ambient magic isn't a big issue.

So it may be that Paul can use it in outer space because his aura has reached the point where he can power it himself without the aid of ambient magical energy.
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He has shown greater skill and awareness when it comes to magic recently, so that's quite likely.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Just hit me. Everything about Grayven feels like goofball Filler. I finally can put a label on it.
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I mean, that's basically originally what it was.

"What if OL came to the universe in kind of a shitty place and did shitty reckless things"

and it leads to goofy shit. It just took on a life of its own over time. I enjoy the Grayven stories, but I WILL say that I much prefer OL.
 
You know what they say. It's easier to break things than to build them. Use biomancy, but don't bother to try to get things right? Pretty easy to wind up with a cancer ray that way.
 
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