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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

I think Paul knows that Quinn isn't a Lord of Order, and I think Quinn told him this.

Constantine may not have the Helmet anymore but he's probably still in possession of Order Magic and is considered a Lord of Order and while the Helmet may not grant the wearer the status of Lord of Order, it still probably makes them extremely powerful.

From the very first episode that John Quinn showed up in-

Wallace looks at me curiously. "Fate's dead, right? I mean… That was what that whole thing was about."

"Brain dead. We destroyed his personality, but we couldn't work out how to completely cut his connection to the plane of order. In theory, the Tower's intelligence should still be capable of detecting us. And since we've been here before…"

So the braindead Nabu is the connection to the plane of Order.

So why would Constantine still have the connection to Order when he doesn't have the helmet that has Nabu in it?

And of course Paul knows that Quinn isn't a lord of order, the brain dead Nabu is the Lord of Order.
 
So the braindead Nabu is the connection to the plane of Order.

So why would Constantine still have the connection to Order when he doesn't have the helmet that has Nabu in it?

Because he could have formed one by himself by accident and no longer requires the Helmet to channel magic from the Plane of Order.
 
brain dead Nabu is the Lord of Order.

Quite possibly the most Orderly he's ever been.. unchanging, unflappable, totally unaffected by the chaos of the world around him. An case study of perfect uniformity in character. Is Nabu now more powerful than ever?

Drawing power from the Plane of Order results in a power up. Drawing more power would influence you to be more Orderly until ultimately you sit down and simply stop. I assume Lords of Order generally fall into the 'determinism' side of philosophy and will refute the chaos that is 'Free Will'. Everything must be set and follow a set of determined patterns and influences.
 
Is this a question of power scale? We saw in the Renegade timeline that Mordru could cast and use some Order-aligned magicks despite being a Lord of Chaos with no particular connection to the plane at all.

Yes, but I was talking about Constantine now having such a connection to the Plane of Order that he now qualifies as a Lord of Order, not just being able to use some of its magic.
 
Because he could have formed one by himself by accident and no longer requires the Helmet to channel magic from the Plane of Order.

Casting ritual magic to surgically alter the soul so that it connects to the realm of order doesn't seem like something someone does on accident, even if your last name is Constantine.

And if he did become a lord of order, he'd be unable to show up on Earth as long as Nabu exists. If Nabu actually died, Quinn really ought to have worked that into a conversation.

So either Richie is wrong about Constantine being a lord of order, or he's wrong in thinking that he needs a distraction to prevent Constantine from butting in.

Either way Richie is wrong about something here.
 
Casting ritual magic to surgically alter the soul so that it connects to the realm of order doesn't seem like something someone does on accident, even if your last name is Constantine.

And if he did become a lord of order, he'd be unable to show up on Earth as long as Nabu exists. If Nabu actually died, Quinn really ought to have worked that into a conversation.

So either Richie is wrong about Constantine being a lord of order, or he's wrong in thinking that he needs a distraction to prevent Constantine from butting in.

Either way Richie is wrong about something here.


Not accurate.

My understanding of the situation is that only one lord of order and one lord of Chaos can be active on earth at a time to maintain the balance of peace between both sides. However several of them can exist on earth at the same time so long as they keep a low profile.

Earth had Nabu, Shazam, Klarion, the Changing man and Oggar. The issue is that only one of them from each side can have their connection at full blast to the plane of order or chaos.

Constantine is currently trying to learn to control the huge forcefields he ate and has the power tap as closed as he can have it, so there is nothing stopping Constantine from being under a bridge somewhere mumbling about how awful purple tastes.

Mr Zoat can clarify, but I believe I am correct.


Tldr

One lord of each side at full power seems to be an agreement made to keep the peace, not a rule of the setting, thus more than one lord can be on earth at the same time, but only one is allowed to have access to all their power and if this agreement is broken it would likely cause war between Chaos and Order.
 
And if he did become a lord of order, he'd be unable to show up on Earth as long as Nabu exists. If Nabu actually died, Quinn really ought to have worked that into a conversation.

Unless, you know, Nabu being brain dead made sure he lost his status as a Lord and while the Helmet is still connected to Order, it's not on the same level as a Lord.
 
Up to converse part 14 in my reread/catchup

The Septhian nerd party is just about the last thing I remember reading before I lost track of the fic.

God, I loved the Sephtian nerd party :)

That is when there stopped being an overarching goal
 
Maladaptive (part 14)
22nd July 2012
19:41 GMT


"And I'm back."

I can see Richard Simpson's aura. He's clearly got some arcane defences, but between rushing this summoning, being an innately arcane being and dealing with a young girl they're nothing like as powerful as he'd need to stop me snooping.

"Huh. You don't look very demony."

"I only put that on for the other demons. I'd much rather look human."

"Why's that?"

"How you look affects how people think about you. And how you think about yourself. If a demon looks big and scary not only do people get scared of it, but the demon thinks of itself as something that's scary to others. And that it's supposed to be scary. I'm not any weaker because I look like this than I am when I look like pink lightning that's on fire, but other demons assume that I don't have what it takes to win in Hell."

"So it's a pose?"

"Everything's a pose. What changes is how much it matters. Look."

I hear a rustle.

"Here. Everything we agreed. And, there, my demonic-magic-pretending-to-be-human-blood. Now if you just-."

"I'm going to read it first."

"Heh-hah. You've got a lot more sense than John, I'll give you that. More sense than me, to tell the truth."

"What d'you mean by that?"

"That's how I died, isn't it? John asked me to take a look at a fundamentalist Christian group called the Resurrection Crusade. I didn't spot the wards around their server and it burned my body to death while my mind was outside of it."

"My dad used to be part of that. But then Uncle John happened."

Okay, he's physically present. I'm not going to get a better chance than this.

"Yeah, he does that. Are any of them left?"

I burrow filaments into the floor, poised to shoot upwards to grab whatever's available.

"I think they've still got a few people in America who are part of it."

"I'll have to pay them a visit. You finished yet?"

"Yeah. I think we're finished."

I fly, bulldozing the intervening walls and office furniture as my filaments leap up and attach themselves to the poorly prepared magic circle and subvert it.

"Mister Simpson."

"Shit!"

He drops-

Subverted.

-into the ground up to his knees before coming to an abrupt halt.

"Shit!"

"Mister Simpson, you have a simple choice."

"Ah…" He gives up on pulling his legs out. "Shit."

"You can explain to me what's happening of your own free will, or-"

"Do you-?"

"-you can explain to me what's happening of your own free will after I warp your mind to suit my desires."

"Hey! What the hell is this? I haven't hurt anyone!"

"Apart from the time when you attacked the Justice League's headquarters."

"Yeah, but-. I thought we were square! I helped you fight the Host!"

"And I'm grateful for that, but protecting the Earth from people who intend it harm is part of my job and I've heard enough to convince me that you're involved in the spontaneous machine animation that's been happening lately. And I would appreciate an explanation."

I frown.

"Also: language. You're not in Hell at the moment."

"I know! I'm trying to leave!"

"You're the ruler of a circle of Hell, and after Neron and Satanus vanished you don't have anyone over you. You've got all the resources you could want, legions of assistants and more arcane lore than most people could read in a lifetime. Why do you want to leave?"

"Because it's Hell, you ffff-. Idiot! It's full of demons! I don't want to be there!"

"You're not there now. I don't particularly mind you hanging around. We can just blame Satanus for-."

"It's not that simple!" He waves his right fist for emphasis. "If there's a gap in the hierarchy someone will fill it. And the first thing they do will be to make sure that I won't ever come back. And then it's back down to the bottom of the hierarchy, surrounded by people who want to make sure I stay there. Did you see how they treat the weak-spirited in Hell?"

"'Rendering'?"

Gemma squints at me. "What's rendering?"

"That's where they break down souls for parts, which are still slightly aware, suffering horribly with no hope of respite."

"… Oh. That sounds…" She looks from me to him and back again. "Can we let him off?"

"I'm not really clear what we'd arrest Mister Simpson for anyway. But I do need to hear a full explanation for why the God of Technology is waking up early."

"That was my escape plan!"

"You become its high priest or… Father? And the other demons don't dare bother you?"

"No!" He gurns. "No. I was trying to study it. Look, I used magic to transfer my consciousness into the internet before I even became a demon. I'm planning-."

"To.. transfer yourself into the foetal god..?" I frown. "Is that possible?"

"I think so. It's basically an unformatted data storage device, right? It's not near enough to the surface… To the world, to get specific experience. So if it's got any personality, it comes from its nature. The only things stopping someone from interfacing with it is its raw power and how it's not fully connected to the world yet."

"And you fixed that."

He nods.

"Borrowed a few cultists from demons who owed me favours." He looks mildly puzzled. "Should be.. here…"

He makes eye contact with me.

"Oh, right."

"John Quinn couldn't detect it."

"They're passive and warded. Not easy to detect. I'm a bit surprised he couldn't work around it, but not everyone is as cunning as Constantine. I don't mind trying to work out how to dampen the side effects. If I get some help-."

"Plan 'Richard Simpson Becomes a God' is firmly off the table. Ring, contact the Justice League."
 
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How you look affects how people think about you. And how you think about yourself. If a demon looks big and scary not only do people get scared of it, but the demon thinks of itself as something that's scary to others. And that it's supposed to be scary. I'm not any weaker because I look like this than I am when I look like pink lightning that's on fire, but other demons assume that I don't have what it takes to win in Hell."

"So it's a pose?"

Demon dick waving contest, as he once put it.

Heh-hah. You've got a lot more sense than John,

Everyone does.

fundamentalist Christian groups

'group'

Yeah, he does that. Are any of them left?"

There were a few during the Angel invasion.

"I think they've still got a few people in America who are part of it."

"I'll have to pay them a visit.

Can't say I'm too sorry for them.

animation that's happen happening lately.

'been happening'

Also: language. You're not in Hell at the moment."

I think Gemma has heard worst.

You're the ruler of a circle of Hell, and after Neron and Satannus vanished you don't have anyone over you.

There's Mammon.

Who runs Hell.

thing they do will be make sure

'be to make'

everyone as cunning as Constantine

'is as cunning'
 
I'm still confused by the metaphysics of why there would be a singular global God of Technology emerging; it doesn't seem like that's the case for any of the usual domains/concepts that gods preside over (wish we'd seen that conclave of forge/volcano gods that Paragon suggested to have a while back). It doesn't seem like Simpson is responsible for that part, just accelerating what would happen 'naturally'. Different cultures on Earth would view technology in different ways, so I'd have thought that would create multiple deities with the same domain.

I forget if Blue Devil tried some of the Fruit, but that could be a potential path to assist Simpson; the resultant hierarchy issue could be a potential opportunity to employ a proxy of Mammon's to be in charge of the industrial/innovation sector of Hell and increase the latter's influence (though I understand being cautious of that idea too).
Why did Simpson become damned to begin with? It may have been mentioned in story but I forgot. Was that a side-effect of the Resurrection Crusade's wards or a consequence of his own morality? I forget how much influence or power he had before Satanus allied with/recruited him.

I'm assuming Gemma's dad being part of that fundamentalist group is from canon, which is certainly an interesting backstory and family dynamic that I'd like to see explored more (or just do a wiki search of if that information's available). Has his belief system changed in any fundamental way (pun semi-intended) since those days?

I don't know how active the Crusade is after the Silver City Invasion, but I'd hope Paragon or some League affiliate was able to get their knowledge of angelology or disable their capacity to use it somehow; it seems like a useful resource, though not entirely necessary with Angelica, Zauriel and pseudo-Noriel around, I guess. I wonder if there've been any interactions between them and the Congregation. If I were Paragon, I'd try to direct their ire to the Satanus/Colin Thornton trial and give it more publicity, which might go badly but from a reader's perspective would be fun to see.
 
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Why did Simpson become damned to begin with

His body was destroyed so he inhabited the avatar of Nergal before some demons abducted him to make him into a proper demon.

I'm assuming Gemma's dad being part of that fundamentalist group is from canon, which is certainly an interesting backstory and family dynamic that I'd like to see explored more (or just do a wiki search of if that information's available). Has his belief system changed in any fundamental way (pun semi-intended) since those days

He may have become less fundamentalist.
 
22nd July 2012
19:41 GMT


"And I'm back."

I can see Richard Simpson's aura. He's clearly got some arcane defences, but between rushing this summoning, being an innately arcane being and dealing with a young girl they're nothing like as powerful as he'd need to stop me snooping.
Overconfidence. Such a useful thing to have in your foes. Makes it so much easier to lay them low when they indulge in stupidity.

"Huh. You don't look very demony."

"I only put that on for the other demons. I'd much rather look human."
That makes a subtle kind of sense. He was born human, he still thinks like a human, of course he wants to look human.

"Why's that?"

"How you look affects how people think about you. And how you think about yourself. If a demon looks big and scary not only do people get scared of it, but the demon thinks of itself as something that's scary to others. And that it's supposed to be scary. I'm not any weaker because I look like this than I am when I look like pink lightning that's on fire, but other demons assume that I don't have what it takes to win in Hell."
It's the same thing with Mammon. He looks like a bloated Lothario because that's the image he wants others to think of him. Or Etrigan, who's as close as you can get to a superheroic demon in terms of appearance.

"So it's a pose?"

"Everything's a pose. What changes is how much it matters. Look."
Image is everything. And to demons, it matters a lot.

I hear a rustle.

"Here. Everything we agreed. And, there, my demonic-magic-pretending-to-be-human-blood. Now if you just-."
Boy, he's rushing through this. John is that scary, then.

"I'm going to read it first."

"Heh-hah. You've got a lot more sense than John, I'll give you that. More sense than me, to tell the truth."
Honestly, if she can keep that good sense in mind, she'd go far as a Constantine. Too bad she doesn't have enough to just leave well enough alone outright, even if she weren't being encouraged to help.

"What d'you mean by that?"

"That's how I died, isn't it? John asked me to take a look at a fundamentalist Christian groups called the Resurrection Crusade. I didn't spot the wards around their server and it burned my body to death while my mind was outside of it."
A neat summation of his mortal fate. And one that puts all the blame on John...

"My dad used to be part of that. But then Uncle John happened."

Okay, he's physically present. I'm not going to get a better chance than this.
Ambush time. Simpson isn't going to know what hit him, is he?

"Yeah, he does that. Are any of them left?"

I burrow filaments into the floor, poised to shoot upwards to grab whatever's available.
Honestly, Simpson really must be in a rush, if he didn't lay any arcane warning signs about...

"I think they've still got a few people in America who are part of it."

"I'll have to pay them a visit. You finished yet?"

"Yeah. I think we're finished."
That's your cue, OL. Have at him.

I fly, bulldozing the intervening walls and office furniture as my filaments leap up and attach themselves to the poorly prepared magic circle and subvert it.

"Mister Simpson."
Heh, this'd be a brown trousers moment... If he still had any flesh.

"Shit!"

He drops-

Subverted.
Yoink!

-into the ground up to his knees before coming to an abrupt halt.

"Shit!"
Yes, you should be afraid. Sticking your fingers in places they don't belong...

"Mister Simpson, you have a simple choice."

"Ah…" He gives up on pulling his legs out. "Shit."
Just accept it, man. You're nicked.

"You can explain to me what's happening of your own free will, or-"

"Do you-?"

"-you can explain to me what's happening of your own free will after I warp your mind to suit my desires."
I would probably keep that option open after this, just in case.

"Hey! What the hell is this? I haven't hurt anyone!"

"Apart from the time when you attacked the Justice League's headquarters."
Under Satannus' purview, that first Christmas, wasn't it?

"Yeah, but-. I thought we were square! I helped you fight the Host!"

"And I'm grateful for that, but protecting the Earth from people who intend it harm is part of my job and I've heard enough to convince me that you're involved in the spontaneous machine animation that's happen happening lately. And I would appreciate an explanation."
Do be quick about it, we haven't got all day.

I frown.

"Also: language. You're not in Hell at the moment."
And in the background Gemma just rolls her eyes. She's probably heard worse at school.

"I know! I'm trying to leave!"

"You're the ruler of a circle of Hell, and after Neron and Satannus vanished you don't have anyone over you. You've got all the resources you could want, legions of assistants and more arcane lore than most people could read in a lifetime. Why do you want to leave?"
Well, by those standards, he's in paradise...

"Because it's Hell, you ffff-. Idiot! It's full of demons! I don't want to be there!"

"You're not there now. I don't particularly mind you hanging around. We can just blame Satannus for-."
The problem is, he needs to be in Hell, or...

"It's not that simple!" He waves his right fist for emphasis. "If there's a gap in the hierarchy someone will fill it. And the first thing they do will be make sure that I won't ever come back. And then it's back down to the bottom of the hierarchy, surrounded by people who want to make sure I stay there. Did you see how they treat the weak-spirited in Hell?"
...That. Better a fool like Simpson, rather than someone smart, or worse, ambitious enough to be eyeing up the seats of his betters...

"'Rendering'?"

Gemma squints at me. "What's rendering?"

"That's where they break down souls for parts, which are still slightly aware, suffering horribly with no hope of respite."
What you might call a fate worse than death. Except, you know, you're already dead. And it's unfortunately too many who weren't good enough.

"… Oh. That sounds…" She looks from me to him and back again. "Can we let him off?"

"I'm not really clear what we'd arrest Mister Simpson for anyway. But I do need to hear a full explanation for why the God of Technology is waking up early."
Ah, finally, back on topic. Chop, chop, Simpson, get talking.

"That was my escape plan!"

"You become its high priest or… Father? And the other demons don't dare bother you?"
Eh, he's already declared his dislike of his neighbours.

"No!" He gurns. "No. I was trying to study it. Look, I used magic to transfer my consciousness into the internet before I even became a demon. I'm planning-."

"To.. transfer yourself into the foetal god..?" I frown. "Is that possible?"
To put it simply, Magic is freaky. Gods are freaky. This is a whole other level of freaky.

"I think so. It's basically an unformatted data storage device, right? It's not near enough to the surface… To the world, to get specific experience. So if it's got any personality, it comes from its nature. The only things stopping someone from interfacing with it is its raw power and how its not fully connected to the world yet."

"And you fixed that."
Ugh, idiots poking the things they don't fully understand...

He nods.

"Borrowed a few cultists from demons who owed me favours." He looks mildly puzzled. "Should be.. here…"
Wait for it...

He makes eye contact with me.

"Oh, right."
There it is, the moment he realises: He. Dun. Goofed.

"John Quinn couldn't detect it."

"They're passive and warded. Not easy to detect. I'm a bit surprised he couldn't work around it, but not everyone as cunning as Constantine. I don't mind trying to work out how to dampen the side effects. If I get some help-."

"Plan 'Richard Simpson Becomes a God' is firmly off the table. Ring, contact the Justice League."
Zatarra, Blaze or Mist? Who would be best to take custody of this git?

Well, the instigator's caught. Now to round up his goons, shut down whatever he's done to pull the Machine closer to waking, and maybe do some fiddling with his desires to prevent a repeat. All nicely wrapped up, then. What to do for the rest of the episode, I wonder?
 
Overconfidence. Such a useful thing to have in your foes. Makes it so much easier to lay them low when they indulge in stupidity.

This is less indulging in stupidity and more just not knowing the dangers.

He was born human, he still thinks like a human,

Well, the demon magic and the decades he spent in Hell may have changed that.

Or Etrigan, who's as close as you can get to a superheroic demon in terms of appearance.

There are also Blue and Red Devil.

Under Satannus' purview, that first Christmas, wasn't it?

It was either during the Oceanus episode, or before the Mandate episode.

Zatarra, Blaze or Mist? Who would be best to take custody of this git?

Giovanni may be familiar with some of his magic, seeing as he used to be a friend of Constantine.

Blaze is an Angel and has millenia worth of experience with demon magic.

Mist is an ancient and powerful magician and may have experience with demons, if his comment about Mammon was true.

Or they can just throw him in the Tower of Fate.

What to do for the rest of the episode, I wonder?

Either Simpson fights him or the tech god awakens.
 
I get why Paul isn't trying to undo Hell yet, but you can't blame the inmates for trying to get out.
Making them gods would be idiotic though, of course

Mostly Paul has been working on helping them become better organize and more orderly, more Crowley and less Hastur/Ligur. At least that's been my impression.
 
"Plan 'Richard Simpson Becomes a God' is firmly off the table. Ring, contact the Justice League."
Spoilsport.
I mean, better not to, but we know from New Gods and the Old Gods too, that being a god isn't that big a deal.

Still, helping Richie leave hell goes along with OL:s core values, as does empowering oneself, and while Richie may be a bit selfish, he's not very malicious, so let's see what OL does.

It could be an opportunity for Paragon to finally educate himself about the apotheosis process that Renegade keeps sharing with everyone he likes and those descriptors are seriously outdated at this point, aren't they.
 
we know from New Gods and the Old Gods too, that being a god isn't that big a deal.

This thing could also be a Titan, and Oceanus could have potentially drowned the planet.

Also the blessing Helios gave Kon could do serious damage to a planet.

Not power you want to be in the hands of a demon, even one as relatively sane and non malicious as Simpson.
 
I'm still confused by the metaphysics of why there would be a singular global God of Technology emerging; it doesn't seem like that's the case for any of the usual domains/concepts that gods preside over (wish we'd seen that conclave of forge/volcano gods that Paragon suggested to have a while back). It doesn't seem like Simpson is responsible for that part, just accelerating what would happen 'naturally'. Different cultures on Earth would view technology in different ways, so I'd have thought that would create multiple deities with the same domain.

I forget if Blue Devil tried some of the Fruit, but that could be a potential path to assist Simpson; the resultant hierarchy issue could be a potential opportunity to employ a proxy of Mammon's to be in charge of the industrial/innovation sector of Hell and increase the latter's influence (though I understand being cautious of that idea too).
Why did Simpson become damned to begin with? It may have been mentioned in story but I forgot. Was that a side-effect of the Resurrection Crusade's wards or a consequence of his own morality? I forget how much influence or power he had before Satanus allied with/recruited him.

I'm assuming Gemma's dad being part of that fundamentalist group is from canon, which is certainly an interesting backstory and family dynamic that I'd like to see explored more (or just do a wiki search of if that information's available). Has his belief system changed in any fundamental way (pun semi-intended) since those days?

I don't know how active the Crusade is after the Silver City Invasion, but I'd hope Paragon or some League affiliate was able to get their knowledge of angelology or disable their capacity to use it somehow; it seems like a useful resource, though not entirely necessary with Angelica, Zauriel and pseudo-Noriel around, I guess. I wonder if there've been any interactions between them and the Congregation. If I were Paragon, I'd try to direct their ire to the Satanus/Colin Thornton trial and give it more publicity, which might go badly but from a reader's perspective would be fun to see.
I think there's a single god of technology because people believe in technology as a singular process. When they think of progress over the past 20 years, they don't usually think of one field in particular. There's a reason why the concept of "Big Tech" exists, and has encompassed everything from cars to electronics over the last 100 years. Though Big Pharma's a little separate.
 

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