With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

l---erddad---l · Apr 20, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
Are you joking? A chance to learn about magic without her parents trying to stop her? If the SI wasn't there she might well just say 'yes'.

TBF, she's actually kinda galaxy braining this. Getting him to come in person means it's easier for OL to intervene.

Darko · Apr 20, 2021

Irked said:
The ritual that turned him into a Lord of Chaos was also the ritual that yoinked Nabu's mantle (and freed Zatara), so he gained that as well as they had nowhere else to put it.

I remember that, but I thought he stopped being an Order Lord after he gave the Helmet to Quinn.

Seeing as he was having difficulty using both forms of magic at the same time I thought he'd just stay with one.

DrThoth · Apr 20, 2021

If all this technological stuff happening around the world is due to Ritchie Simpson, shouldn't there be clear traces of infernal energy? I'm not sure how easy it is to mask demonic magic, especially from a god's senses or such high-end artifacts like the Orb of Nabu. I don't know if demons can use non-infernal/earthly magic, or there's just more going on that we don't know about yet.

I have to say though, John's reasons for staying away from things even after the Silver City and Sheeda invasions better be good (unless he was involved from the shadows or something).

Knowledge of Paragon's relationship with Mammon isn't common in Hell, right? I wonder if he'll get involved at some point.

Tzeentch · Apr 20, 2021

Irked said:
He went from being a low-mid level magician who had a bunch of tricks to help him punch far above his weight class to being a Metamagical WMD that would have 99% of the people/monsters/villains/demons he used to deal with shitting bricks from his presence alone.

And knowing John, he likely hasn't been idle in putting all that power to good, or rather, morally grey/ambiguous use.

One wonders as to how many old foes, mortal or otherwise, the new Lord of Chaos has been curbstomping, and inflicting cruel/cool and unusual punishments on since his ascension....

Orm Embar · Apr 20, 2021

Cuchulin said:
Umm dude? If you want to know how John became both a Lord of Order and a Lord of Chaos you might want to talk to Orange Light using guy who helped make it happen.

It doesn't seem like he knows Paul's there, the tattoos block magic-based senses. It's also not clear how much of the Fate fight's aftermath is public knowledge, though maybe Simpson can get into the Justice League's servers with technopathy.

Chojin Patriarch · Apr 20, 2021

...I'm just going remove all the size tabs, to make this commentary easier for everyone to read...

Mr Zoat said:
22nd July 2012
19:36 GMT

"Yeah. Sorry about this. Nothing personal, but I'm in the middle of something important and I don't want John getting involved. So I'm going to stick you somewhere out of the way and feed him clues about where you are until I'm finished."

Oh-ho, so this might still tie into the possible Machine God awakening, then. Perhaps Simpson wants to set himself up to possess the framework as it comes into its godhead, so he becomes the driving personality... In which case, Earth would be fucked.

The ring shows me… I'm not sure that they're cultists, but the colour-associations seem to-. Yes. Looks like Richard answered an arcane plea for help during the Sheeda invasion and they're happy to pay him back by working for him rather than something more extreme. When you owe a debt to a demon, you're lucky if they don't just drag you into Hell because they got bored.

Indeed, many a tale of that here and there in fiction. And they are indeed the lucky ones. The unlucky ones? 'Fate Worse Than Death' might well be a good description for many.

"But I don't know where Uncle John is. He disappeared."

"Then look at this as a holiday."

Some holiday...On the upside, she might well be able to annoy the cultists into surrender as a sort of reverse Stockholm Syndrome...

"Okay, I'm leaving. Weirdo."

"Don't you want to know where he is?"

"You just told me that you don't know."

That he did. Simpson... Isn't really very good at the whole demonic bargaining thing, is he?

"That's true. I don't. But if I tell enough people that I've taken you, he'll hear about it. And then he'll come to get you, and we'll both know where he is."

And that is the sort of logic you'd expect from someone dumb enough to get on the worse side of John Constantine. (Since even his good side is kind of bad...)

"Or he won't, because he's not listening."

"Okay. What do you want?"

No, OL, that is not a cue to consider him for Orange Lantern membership...

"What do you mean, 'what do I want'?"

"I don't want to make this any harder than it needs to be. And don't want to hurt you. Or… I mean, I wouldn't exactly be broken up about it, but I'm not aiming to hurt John. I just want him distracted. Once I'm finished, you'll both be free to go. So what do you want, that'll make you go along with it?"

Ugh, he's basically dangling a blank check in front of her... The one thing better than a simple carrot for getting a Constantine interested...

…

"What have you got?"

Because she wouldn't be a Constantine if that sort of offer wasn't near-irresistible.

Oh, she'll bear watching in the future. Didn't John get his mystical start about this age? And now she's had a taste of the supernatural, it's going to be harder to convince her to give it up...

"I'm Overlord of The Odium. A whole circle of Hell does what I tell it to. Magic? Knowledge? Technology? Whatever I've got, in exchange for you disappearing for a week or two."

Ah, talking himself up, eh? I'm pretty sure Mammon still has enough of a hold over him to be able to rein him in.

"You're a demon."

"I'm... Currently a demon, yes. But I used to be a man. And demons might be nastier, but they're also a lot more honest."

...He's not entirely wrong. Most demons are truer to their urges and instincts than humans are...

"Honest. Really."

"I know, it doesn't sound very likely. But demons are actually pretty rule-abiding. If we make a pact, I'll have to stick to it."

Heh. I suppose it's a good thing for 'evil' Lawyers to have a good in with Hell. The nasty ones would end up there anyway, so why not have a fast-track out of the tortures?

"Or what?"

"I just have to. It's built in. Hasn't John told you about this?"

I expect there are hidden clauses, enforced by magic, built into every demonic pact and contract... It's just that so few people bother to read the fine print.

"… No."

"Really? This is basic stuff. Why did you think demons both with pacts in the first place?"

...Because it's more fun to watch their contractees damn themselves by their own hand?

"Same reason why cats play with birds they've caught. What are you trying to do, anyway?"

"I don't-. … If you agree to be bound so you can't tell John, I'll tell you."

Ah, he's not a complete idiot, then.

"If you're such a powerful demon, how come you're so worried about Uncle John?"

"Because he's a Lord of Order and a Lord of Chaos! I'd love to try and work out how he did it, but if there's anything I've learned in Hell it's that there are things and people you don't mess around with if you can avoid it. And he's both.""

Interesting. Presumably word of John Quinn's ownership of the Helmet of Fate (and thus its presumably effective status as a Lord of Order) hasn't spread far yet. It is amusing to see Constantine feared by those who would have dismissed him as a mere hedge-wizard before...

"Both? How's that work?"

"I'm happy to explain it to you. If-."

<sigh> Dangit, he's really set on getting that figurative signature down on paper, isn't he? I guess you only lose your pact-making cherry once, so you may as well make it special.

"If I agree to help you."

"It's not as if you'll be doing anything. Just keeping out of the way for a few days."

And what's to stop the cultists deciding to have a little.. fun with her in the meantime, eh? I doubt they know to fear the Constantine name...

"And you won't hurt Uncle John?"

"I don't really think I could. But sure. I won't try to hurt him."

Of course, he says nothing about anyone working for him... I see he's got the 'exact words' part of pact-making down to a T...

"Or tell other people to?"

"You're a sharp one, aren't you? Not that I'd have tried anything serious, but if John's really angry I'd still like to be able to, you know, throw a minion or two at him to keep him away from me. And it's not really fair to them if I tell them they can't hurt him."

...And I see she's heard enough from John to know to be very precise in dealings with demons. Still, trying to lead him on into a situation where they can get their hands (or Constructs) on him is risky.

"Is Uncle John really that-?"

The door behind me opens as the first cultist strolls in.

Oh, right, these guys are here. Almost forgot about them.

"…handle a-."

He sees me, his eyes widen, then his body locks up as a filament usurps control of his peripheral nervous system. And march him out of the way. I'm assuming that Richard is monitoring them by magic, but my tattoos should still prevent him from seeing me. If Gemma has his full attention then he shouldn't immediately notice that his minions are distracted.

Assuming he gives two shits about them anyway. Simpson doesn't strike me as one to give much thought to cogs in his plan unless they fuck up bad.

"Gary? What-?"

A filament each for each of the other three, who will soon be facing Attempted Kidnapping charges with their ropes and chloroform as evidence. In case Richard is monitoring them I slowly puppet-walk them towards the control room. The rest of the cultists appear to be spreading out throughout the building, covering doors and other likely escape routes.

Ah, I was hoping to see them stunned, paralysed and stacked like firewood as each group came in...

What? It's an amusing image.

"I… Suppose that… Sounds fair."

"Great! Pick your finger and bleed a little on the screen, and we'll have a pact."

"If it's just my blood, how is that supposed to bind you?"

Good catch. Never sign anything with a demon, figuratively speaking, until you've read the fine print and gotten assurances.

"Because I'm using my magic. My consciousness is magic-based. Demon only have blood when they're supporting their material avatars with sympathetic magic."

"I don't believe you."

Indeed. He's coming across as willing to say anything to get his deal.

"Okay. This is..." I hear him sigh. "What guarantee do you want?"

"I want you here in person."

Clever. Pin him down here for OL to snag more easily... After all, he's shown he can Brand demons easily enough, even when incarnate.

"That doesn't-. I don't work like that. I've got a distributed consciousness. If-."

"I don't believe you."

Ah, teenagers. Sceptical to a fault.

"And this is it? If I come to you and we bind our agreement with our blood, you'll accept it?"

"Yeah?"

Note that's not a definite yes. Clever girl, weaving in loopholes. And Simpson's so inexperienced in pact-making, he seems to have missed it...

"Okay. Cabinet on the right. Get a few multi-sockets out, plug them into each other to create a circle and then put in on the floor."

"Okay?"

Pentagram optional, I suppose.

"Then put the clock radio down in the middle and take a few steps back."

"Okay."

"And then give me a minute because this is a right mind-bender."

Is it unpleasantly like being drunk?
"What's wrong with that?"
Ask the glass of water...

Got to love dumb enemies. They just blunder into traps so easily. It helps that Simpson seems to be very overconfident, which suggests he had a halfway-decent plan for.. whatever he was doing that he didn't want John sticking his nose into. Wonder if any other demons are being as cautious around the empowered Laughing Magician...

Twilight666 · Apr 20, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"I know, it doesn't sound very likely. But demons are actually pretty rule-abiding. If we make a pact, I'll have to stick to it."

Or as another show put it:

Darko · Apr 20, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
That he did. Simpson... Isn't really very good at the whole demonic bargaining thing, is he?

He's fairly new at being a demon.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And that is the sort of logic you'd expect from someone dumb enough to get on the worse side of John Constantine. (Since even his good side is kind of bad...)

His bad side is like drinking flesh-eating acid.

His good side is like drinking horse piss.

Both are just different degrees of terrible.

Chojin Patriarch said:
No, OL, that is not a cue to consider him for Orange Lantern membership...

Somehow I think he's going to see it as being a cue.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Ugh, he's basically dangling a blank check in front of her... The one thing better than a simple carrot for getting a Constantine interested...

There's also cheep booze, cheep cigarettes and potentially illegal drugs.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Ah, he's not a complete idiot, then.

But he's still a massive idiot.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Interesting. Presumably word of John Quinn's ownership of the Helmet of Fate (and thus its presumably effective status as a Lord of Order) hasn't spread far yet. It is amusing to see Constantine feared by those who would have dismissed him as a mere hedge-wizard before...

I think Quinn mentioned he's not a Lord, so he may just be an extremely powerful Order magician now.

Chojin Patriarch said:
<sigh> Dangit, he's really set on getting that figurative signature down on paper, isn't he? I guess you only lose your pact-making cherry once, so you may as well make it special.

I just threw up a bit in my mouth after reading this.

Chojin Patriarch said:
And what's to stop the cultists deciding to have a little.. fun with her in the meantime, eh? I doubt they know to fear the Constantine name...

Simpson may have told them not to do it unless they want to become something like servitors from 40k.

Sockmonkey · Apr 20, 2021

Darko said:
And you'll have a Lord of Chaos gunning after you.

Smart move, demon shit.

Indeed. Even Satanus hated having to deal with him when he was just a street magician.

Yanno, once Simpson is physically present, there's nothing stopping OL from assimilating his ass.
It should be done just on general principals because that guy is too stupid to live.

Darko · Apr 20, 2021

Sockmonkey said:
Yanno, once Simpson is physically present, there's nothing stopping OL from assimilating his ass.
It should be done just on general principals because that guy is too stupid to live.

He may be resistant to assimilation or branding.

The guy is a powerful demon and could either fight through Paul's attempts or he may have precautions in case someone tries to enslave him.

Paul managed to brand Mammon because he was imprisoned by Satanus and had some of his power siphoned off, so he wasn't at his strongest.

PrinceJonathan · Apr 20, 2021

I can't help but wonder what he's trying to do. It doesn't sound like anything malicious, but still something John would try to stop if he knew about it.

"Do you have any idea the hoops one has to go through to get a PS5 in Hell?!"

Stsword · Apr 20, 2021

Irked said:
The ritual that turned him into a Lord of Chaos was also the ritual that yoinked Nabu's mantle (and freed Zatara), so he gained that as well as they had nowhere else to put it.

That is not what happened.

Klarion was only susceptible to having his Lord of Chaos status ganked because he lost his original familiar and formed a second familiar relationship. The story was explicit about this.

Nabu never did that, making him completely and totally immune to having his Lord of Order status stolen by that ritual.

Instead Nabu was effectively lobotomized.

So whoever has the helmet has a free conduit to the realm of order, making them effectively a lord of order as long as they have the helmet to use as a conduit because it still has Nabu's soul and hence his connection to the realm of Order in it.

Hence how Quinn became the effective Lord of Order by getting the helmet from Constantine, because Constantine couldn't handle the conflicting energies according to Quinn himself.

If the Lord of Order status was innate to Constantine, then Paul would have known that Quinn was lying becuase his cover story would have been impossible nonsense.

So if Quinn is lying, which remains to be seen, he wasn't lying about the helmet being the condiut to Order.

Darko · Apr 20, 2021

Stsword said:
That is not what happened.

Klarion was only susceptible to having his Lord of Chaos status ganked because he lost his original familiar and formed a second familiar relationship. The story was explicit about this.

Nabu never did that, making him completely and totally immune to having his Lord of Order status stolen by that ritual.

Instead Nabu was effectively lobotomized.

So whoever has the helmet has a free conduit to the realm of order, making them effectively a lord of order as long as they have the helmet to use as a conduit because it still has Nabu's soul and hence his connection to the realm of Order in it.

Hence how Quinn became the effective Lord of Order by getting the helmet from Constantine, because Constantine couldn't handle the conflicting energies according to Quinn himself.

If the Lord of Order status was innate to Constantine, then Paul would have known that Quinn was lying becuase his cover story would have been impossible nonsense.

So if Quinn is lying, which remains to be seen, he wasn't lying about the helmet being the condiut to Order.

I think Paul knows that Quinn isn't a Lord of Order, and I think Quinn told him this.

Constantine may not have the Helmet anymore but he's probably still in possession of Order Magic and is considered a Lord of Order and while the Helmet may not grant the wearer the status of Lord of Order, it still probably makes them extremely powerful.

I think Zoat also mentioned that John is still having difficulty with getting the two magics to work together, and this is long after he gave up the Helmet.

And several characters in the story have called him a Lord of Order and Chaos.

Constantine was probably desperate and gave up the Helmet thinking it would help him, but no such luck.

Idkusername · Apr 20, 2021

Darko said:
I think Quinn told him this.

In this very episode.

Mr Zoat said:
"I'm not a Lord of Order or a Lord of Chaos. I just stole their equipment.

John isn't a Lord of Order, Occam's Razor says that Simmons or whatever his name is is working off of flawed information.

Sorrow · Apr 20, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
22nd July 2012
But demons are actually pretty rule-abiding

Is it a bad thing that I hope the Demons rip the Lawyer a new one? Am I evil?

Massgamer · Apr 20, 2021

Is Richard trying to become a technology god to get out of being a demon? It sounds like he is planning to not be one anymore.

Darko · Apr 20, 2021

Idkusername said:
In this very episode.

John isn't a Lord of Order, Occam's Razor says that Simmons or whatever his name is is working off of flawed information.

I think his info may be correct.

John has been stated to be a Lord of Order and Chaos before if I remember correctly, so his info may be correct.

Mr Zoat · Apr 20, 2021

Sorrow said:
Is it a bad thing that I hope the Demons rip the Lawyer a new one? Am I evil?

Blue Devil got retconned in that story. The lawyer won the case, but because there was critical information he didn't have he couldn't get the level of compensation his client wanted.

Pinklestia · Apr 20, 2021

Yeah, demons are not fae, they may have to stick to the letter of an agreement but outside said agreement they can lie.

Hell's Razer · Apr 20, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"I don't believe you."

"And this is it? If I come to you and we bind our agreement with our blood, you'll accept it?"

"Yeah?"

"Okay. Cabinet on the right. Get a few multi-sockets out, plug them into each other to create a circle and then put in on the floor."

"Okay?"

"Then put the clock radio down in the middle and take a few steps back."

"Okay."

"And then give me a minute because this is a right mind-bender."

She is a true Constantine alright. This is a classic Constantine plot, if with better backup and support than they usually have (i.e. the fact that she has any).

Nero200 · Apr 20, 2021

Hell's Razer said:
She is a true Constantine alright. This is a classic Constantine plot, if with better backup and support than they usually have (i.e. the fact that she has any).

To be fair, John often has backup.
It's the fact that OL will survive being a Constantines backup that makes this anything other than a usual go of things.

FreeGod · Apr 20, 2021

Cuchulin said:
Umm dude? If you want to know how John became both a Lord of Order and a Lord of Chaos you might want to talk to Orange Light using guy who helped make it happen.

Paul is almost as scary. Or even more so he has alot more backup.

Darko · Apr 20, 2021

Nero200 said:
It's the fact that OL will survive being a Constantines backup that makes this anything other than a usual go of things.

And he'll also not be maimed and will keep his sanity!

Well, as much sanity as he had.

Enochi · Apr 20, 2021

Hmm I'm guessing Ritche is trying to become the new god of Technology.

PROTOTYPElu2 · Apr 20, 2021

I don't think that kidnaping the niece of the man that butchered an Angel, before he gained a huge power boost, is a smart idea my dude.

Darko · Apr 20, 2021

PROTOTYPElu2 said:
I don't think that kidnaping the niece of the man that butchered an Angel, before he gained a huge power boost, is a smart idea my dude.

Technically a bunch of other people, like Chantinelle the succubus, the First of the Fallen, and Gabriel's Angel brethren, did most of the butchering.

Old Knife · Apr 20, 2021

BlueMangoAdea said:
Lmao. Yeah, John must be really scary for demons right now.

I wonder how powerful theFirst, Second and Third of the fallen were compared to Constantine: Lord of order and chaos.

Darko · Apr 20, 2021

Old Knife said:
I wonder how powerful theFirst, Second and Third of the fallen were compared to Constantine: Lord of order and chaos.

I'm thinking that they were all more powerful than him.

Maxx Crowley · Apr 20, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
Are you joking? A chance to learn about magic without her parents trying to stop her? If the SI wasn't there she might well just say 'yes'.

So, is it a Constantine thing to Order an extra large stupid with stupid sauce?

PROTOTYPElu2 said:
I don't think that kidnaping the niece of the man that butchered an Angel, before he gained a huge power boost, is a smart idea my dude.

If not for the green, your avatar makes me think of Diggory making out with Potter.

I almost approve.

Anyway, is it just a rule that literally everyone in a Hellblazer is some varying form of really stupid?

Darko · Apr 20, 2021

Maxx Crowley said:
So, is it a Constantine thing to Order an extra large stupid with stupid sauce?

Yes.

And don't forget the chopped dumbass.

Maxx Crowley said:
Anyway, is it just a rule that literally everyone in a Hellblazer is some varying form of really stupid?

I know that Garth Ennis once wrote some Hellblazer comics, so probably.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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