With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Bud-E · Jun 12, 2021

rkyeun said:
I'm Vandal Savage, and I approve this mess-- oh wait, I died. Shit.

When did Vandal Savage die? I remember Ra's dying off-screen when the League of Shadows fell apart but not Savage.

Darko · Jun 12, 2021

Bud-E said:
When did Vandal Savage die? I remember Ra's dying off-screen when the League of Shadows fell apart but not Savage.

The most prominent mentions of him dying were when Adom tore him apart.

When Mandate Paul disintegrated a version of him.

When Anti Ring and Sybarite threw their versions in the sun.

And of course when renegade assimilated his version.

I think paragon Vandal is still alive though.

Chaoswind · Jun 12, 2021

Paul is wasting a temporary advantage by telling everyone and their mother he is functionally immortal, but having the reach ambush him with bigger and bigger bombs is a huge detriment to Paul mission and likely to destroy things in the collateral damage that he doesn't want the reach to destroy... Like if the Reach had used qwa bombs on these penal/brainwashed fleets they would have failed to kill him, but Paul would also fail his mission as well.

It's just better for Paul in the short term if the Reach stop placing huge bombs whenever he goes... In the long term the reach will develop weapons to kill immortals, but let's be honest that is also good for him as the weapons they will develop can be then taken/traded away and used on the many other immortal beings of the universe and Paul doesn't like most of those.

Finally, I think this is what will spur the Reach to contact the light, maybe they will eventually betray Vandal Savage and take him to test their anti immortal weaponry on him because for an immortal he is extremely weak.

Darko · Jun 12, 2021

Chaoswind said:
Finally, I think this is what will spur the Reach to contact the light, maybe they will eventually betray Vandal Savage and take him to test their anti immortal weaponry on him because for an immortal he is extremely weak.

I think Zoat mentioned that the timeline for when the Reach come to Earth would be altered.

If he still sticks with this then I'm betting that the Reach may get desperate for some exotic weapons to fight the OLC, and Earth with its potential metahumans may be what they need, so they come there early.

And that thing about them experimenting on Savage made me think of another story called The Dark Shard on SB.

In it Psimon and Queen Bee get abducted by those Croloteans after the Light is destroyed due to infighting and outside attacks, so they can use their abilities in their enterprises.

Someguy Somewhere · Jun 12, 2021

While I do agree that Paul's making it a bit easy for the Reach to start thinking of ways to kill him and make it stick, I do like to play devils advocate.

So here we go.

1) Anti Paul equipment has to be deployed anywhere that Paul MIGHT show up...and since he can teleport on a galactic scale, that could well be anywhere...or everywhere. At Any Time. So they either have to have a lot of examples of it all over the place, or several very rapid response units near where they think he might be.

2) Anti Paul weapons are generally Overkill on normal Lanterns, if they work. Using that Qwa-matter Bomb on Ragnar for example would have been swatting a fly with an AA Flak Cannon. Yes it works, but it's sub-optimal.

3) Anti Paul weapons tend to be WMD's thus far, and are not exactly press friendly for the Public Opinion Minded Reach, and their use outside of Reach space may violate their treaty with the Green Lantern Corps.

4) Anti Paul weapons are costly in time, money and resources. Something that the very Mercantile Reach understand very well.

So....on the face of it, yes giving the enemy ideas on how to kill him is a bad idea, if they have the ability to capitalize on it. On the other hand, them Trying to is going to divert resources away from the conventional fleet and other non enlightened Lanterns, and makes them look pretty Bad in the public eye escalating weapons of mass destruction at one man...and repeatedly Failing to succeed with them. Paul Walked off the Qwa-matter and turned it into a PR Stunt for trade negotiations, while ALSO seeding thoughts of him either using decoys or being a Decoy himself.

The Reach, like NEMO, only have so many resources to throw at the war, and if they want to strain their military industrial complex trying to out escalate one mad man, it IS going to cost them something else.

Impatient_Quill · Jun 12, 2021

Someguy Somewhere said:
While I do agree that Paul's making it a bit easy for the Reach to start thinking of ways to kill him and make it stick, I do like to play devils advocate.

So here we go.

1) Anti Paul equipment has to be deployed anywhere that Paul MIGHT show up...and since he can teleport on a galactic scale, that could well be anywhere...or everywhere. At Any Time. So they either have to have a lot of examples of it all over the place, or several very rapid response units near where they think he might be.

2) Anti Paul weapons are generally Overkill on normal Lanterns, if they work. Using that Qwa-matter Bomb on Ragnar for example would have been swatting a fly with an AA Flak Cannon. Yes it works, but it's sub-optimal.

3) Anti Paul weapons tend to be WMD's thus far, and are not exactly press friendly for the Public Opinion Minded Reach, and their use outside of Reach space may violate their treaty with the Green Lantern Corps.

4) Anti Paul weapons are costly in time, money and resources. Something that the very Mercantile Reach understand very well.

So....on the face of it, yes giving the enemy ideas on how to kill him is a bad idea, if they have the ability to capitalize on it. On the other hand, them Trying to is going to divert resources away from the conventional fleet and other non enlightened Lanterns, and makes them look pretty Bad in the public eye escalating weapons of mass destruction at one man...and repeatedly Failing to succeed with them. Paul Walked off the Qwa-matter and turned it into a PR Stunt for trade negotiations, while ALSO seeding thoughts of him either using decoys or being a Decoy himself.

The Reach, like NEMO, only have so many resources to throw at the war, and if they want to strain their military industrial complex trying to out escalate one mad man, it IS going to cost them something else.

While this is an accurate enough assessment, you're forgetting the Budget Option of just throw Bounty Hunters at the problem. No offense to Paul, but Lobo is the Main Man, and that is a fight I don't think either can actually win.

jonasquinn · Jun 12, 2021

The people complaining about Paul telling the Reach that he's immortal are forgetting a few important things:

1) It is 100% possible that the Reach won't believe him because that's the exact sort of brag you would tell your enemy to try and demoralise them

2) As others have pointed out the Reach deploying increasingly bigger weapons against Paul in the hopes of overcoming his defences is a very bad thing since that would lead to a lot of collateral damage and would be equally effective against other Lanterns

3) OL being immortal is kind of an open secret so it's literally only a matter of time until the Reach at least heard rumours about it

4) At a certain point whether you're immortal or just extremely difficult to kill doesn't matter because the best option just becomes working around you rather than trying to dealing with you directly, for example Superman isn't immortal but is so bloody difficult to kill that the vast majority of people plan around how not to have to deal with him rather than how to beat them

Someguy Somewhere · Jun 12, 2021

Since now we're talking Paul Tactics in fighting this war, I've got to harken back to some of the wisdom of Grand Admiral Thrawn.

During the Thrawn Trilogy, the good Admiral launched a strike against Coruascant, the captial world of the New Republic. The Attack itself wasn't a full assault, but simply a raid to show he could attack their strongest point without retaliation. He Also took the time to drop off a series of cloaked Asteroids into decaying orbits around the world. He did so with enough evidence to show he was doing something, and enough false firings to make it look like there were much more of them then their actually were.

This left the world bottled up under it's defenses while he was free to leave and attack other locations without much interference, while the republic devoted resources to clearing near orbit space of an unknown number of weapons.

Why do I bring this up?

One, Paul, or at least Grayven, has pointed out he's familiar with Thrawn in fiction. Two, because Paul can use a similar tactic.

Paul can teleport around Reach Space, fire off a few singularity beams at their worlds and poof, off to the next. With impunity.

Randomly picking worlds all over reach space means he could be anywhere and they wouldn't know it until the shots land, and by the time they do, he's gone. Those worlds would have to be at combat readiness at all times, and recall fleets from the front lines to attempt to swat Paul before he can get a shot off.

Yes it's intergalactic Terrorisim if you want to argue the morality of it. Even if he restricted himself to military bases, Reach space is large, and having Paul loose in their back lines would be terrible for moral, for productivity and for resource management.

Maybe Dox is saving Greedyporting Hit and Run attacks for later in the war.

Vaermina · Jun 12, 2021

Mors said:
Wait what? Sauce?

From what I know (I don't read comics much so it's all osmosis) GLs fought the Reach to a draw, and the GLs are just an enforcement arm of the Guardians.

So it sounds like a universal superpower vs a regional superpower to me.

The Green Lanterns are Thee enforcement arm of the Guardians.

Also why would the Controllers be less advanced? They split off a long time ago so have the Guardians just progressed faster?

Yes.

That said, Zoat retconned a lot of stuff to make the Guardians even more advanced then they were previously.

But remember, the Darkstar Exo-Mantle's were literally the best the Controllers could build.

RamiroGalletti · Jun 12, 2021

Someguy Somewhere said:
Since now we're talking Paul Tactics in fighting this war, I've got to harken back to some of the wisdom of Grand Admiral Thrawn.

During the Thrawn Trilogy, the good Admiral launched a strike against Coruascant, the captial world of the New Republic. The Attack itself wasn't a full assault, but simply a raid to show he could attack their strongest point without retaliation. He Also took the time to drop off a series of cloaked Asteroids into decaying orbits around the world. He did so with enough evidence to show he was doing something, and enough false firings to make it look like there were much more of them then their actually were.

This left the world bottled up under it's defenses while he was free to leave and attack other locations without much interference, while the republic devoted resources to clearing near orbit space of an unknown number of weapons.

Why do I bring this up?

One, Paul, or at least Grayven, has pointed out he's familiar with Thrawn in fiction. Two, because Paul can use a similar tactic.

Paul can teleport around Reach Space, fire off a few singularity beams at their worlds and poof, off to the next. With impunity.

Randomly picking worlds all over reach space means he could be anywhere and they wouldn't know it until the shots land, and by the time they do, he's gone. Those worlds would have to be at combat readiness at all times, and recall fleets from the front lines to attempt to swat Paul before he can get a shot off.

Yes it's intergalactic Terrorisim if you want to argue the morality of it. Even if he restricted himself to military bases, Reach space is large, and having Paul loose in their back lines would be terrible for moral, for productivity and for resource management.

Maybe Dox is saving Greedyporting Hit and Run attacks for later in the war.

maybe he is just waiting until he can replicate that skill set on at least 20 lanterns. if paul is THAT danggerus imagine an "orange lantern corpse" of "greed-teleporters"

Rafin · Jun 12, 2021

rkyeun said:
The brain needs to be involved because you are harnessing the Glow, an emergent feature of sophonts. You cannot make a machine which can wield a ring unless that machine has a mind capable of feeling emotions. At which point, you may begin to make statements about how many standard persons worth of mind and emotions it is, because there is clearly not a 1:1 correspondence between number of bodies or biomass and ability to give a shit, even among humans. One of the most powerful Green Lanterns in existence is the size of a planet and uses an entire ecosphere as its emotive substrate. If Mogo put a ring on every individual squirrel and monkey and blade of grass, how powerful would them all acting in concert and as one be? Because that's what Mogo is start with.

Sorry. I shouldn't have used "brain". What I meant is that the specialized part of the mind that can comprehend distances and information on the astronomical scale should in any way be a prerequisite to do any size of scan with an Orange ring.

Doccer · Jun 13, 2021

BlueMangoAdea said:
What advantage does it even give the Reach to tell them that he's immortal? You are overreacting.

So? You learn your opponent has bullet resistant armor you get armor piercing rounds. Your opponent gets a tank you get an anti-tank gun. Your opponent brags about being Immortal you get immortal killing weapons. I know of at least 1 ex-succubus that created a Immortal 'killing' weapon.
Did we ever get word in where Nabu and that other one end up from/in the Renegades universe?

fappingtoyourpost · Jun 13, 2021

The Reach is going to wind up being some Lord of Order's fault, isn't it?

Stsword · Jun 13, 2021

fappingtoyourpost said:
The Reach is going to wind up being some Lord of Order's fault, isn't it?

That would be funny, since Nabu made the scarab in the Time Masters series.

You know, before the whole Reach thing.

rkyeun · Jun 13, 2021

Rafin said:
Sorry. I shouldn't have used "brain". What I meant is that the specialized part of the mind that can comprehend distances and information on the astronomical scale should in any way be a prerequisite to do any size of scan with an Orange ring.

Your ability to want things is in some way dependent on your evolutionary history, the utility function you were created with, and/or base sensory modes.
No matter how smart an AI I build into my computer, it will never want a cheeseburger in the same way that I, a biological lipid sugar seeking hedonic savanna ape, will. It just doesn't have a hindbrain shaped like "MINE, CONSUME ALL CALORIES, MINE MINE MINE, MUST SURVIVE FAMINE, THIS IS THE BEST FLAVOR". There is no part of my computer that has such a visceral connection to Orange Glow of that shape. Similarly, I can't desire the raw tedium of perfect awareness and calculation of every particle of space in my hyperlight cone in the same way that Ranx can. I would look at the first few thousand neutrino particles, a few thousand gluons, and then be like "god this is boring, I don't want this" and it would vanish from my perception. But Ranx does want that. It does not care of tedium or boredom and finds these trajectories beautiful and reassuring in the manner of an Abrahamic deity receiving praises for his all-knowing omnipotence. "YES," Ranx's subcore physics predictor module screams in its hindbrain, "GIVE ME ALL THE PARTICLE DATA, TAKE THOSE THIRD DERIVATIVES, MAXIMIZE THE OPTIMAL CONFLUENCE, MINE MINE MINE." The shape of the mind matters to the things you can want. "Analyze the flavor of this cheeseburger?" Ranx groans, "I don't want this."

Ardy · Jun 13, 2021

So is it just me or is anyone else thinking about how funny the two marvel Pauls meeting would be.

"Hi there, this is my daughter Rogue."

"Hi there, this is my fuckbuddy Rogue."

like that one HP fanfic about a parallel earth where Remus adopted Tonks meeting canon Remus

Caerwen · Jun 13, 2021

RichardWhereat said:
So, grab their dna, and create clones to breed their species back?

Not without some serious tinkering with it to make it useful again.

Mr Zoat said:
These people aren't just suppressed, they genuinely don't have desires outside being useful to the Reach any longer. Their neurology has been redesigned… Yes, and their genes as well to ensure that future generations are the same. Their endocrine system has had a bit of a rework…

Mr Zoat · Jun 13, 2021

25th August 2012
00:49 GMT

Orange strands shimmer as Lantern Threllian goes to work on the two cores I was able to recover.

"So that you are aware, the ships used by my people don't have central servers."

"Noted."

"That's interesting." Thaddeus has the laboratory's computer bring up a full genetic workup of the captured and currently paralysed juluuni officers. "Not brilliant, but I suppose I can credit them with being rigorous in their simplicity."

"Any idiot can make something more complicated, Thaddeus." I walk over to him to get a better-. Yeah, I've got no idea what I'm looking at. "The Reach were trying to achieve a particular social aim, not learn more about biology."

"Why?"

I take a moment to stare at him.

He frowns. "What?"

"I'm sorry, for a moment there it sounded like you had a moral objection."

"You remember what you said to Father about 'alternate moral paths'?"

I wince inwardly, but keep smiling. "That… Was a small part of a larger discussion about moral systems w-."

"Yeah, but that bit made sense. I'd kill a few people because I needed something which they had or because I could learn something from doing it. I would not do it simply because they were there. That feels… Wrong." He looks introspective for a moment. "Am I having a moral intuition?"

"Um. Maybe. I don't think that you or Georgia have your father's inability to understand morals or social organisation, so it's possible. But in reference to the moral paths I was talking about, that might just mean that you are far less moral than most people and it takes more to arouse your distaste."

"How would I know?"

I look over to the data cores Threllian is analysing. "How would you feel about me destroying those?"

He looks at them for a moment, then shrugs. "I do not care. The technology is not particularly advanced. I could easily create something better."

"If you're not offended by the fact that I could be destroying unique information, then it's probably not an alternate moral system. If you were actually following a moral code of wissenschaft über alles, it would offend you."

He frowns. "So your conclusion is that I'm not so much dedicated to knowledge as I am monstrously jaded?"

"It's a tentative conclusion based on insufficient evidence, but it does sound like it."

His frown deepens. "I do not like that. I do not like that at all."

Over to our right, Lantern Natu squeezes her eyes closed for a moment before turning to face him.

"You're not supposed to like being a monster."

Thaddeus folds his arms across his chest. "What do you know about it?"

"Thaal Sinestro used to rule my homeworld. He wasn't.. terrible to begin with, but as time went on he became more and more anal retentive. Littering became an arrestable offence with gaol time. He shut down off-world travel because he said it encouraged disorder."

Thaddeus nods. "Yes, contact with out-of-context ideas generally does encourage disorder."

"It paralysed our entire civilisation. Nothing that he didn't approve of was allowed to happen and he-. He genuinely believed that it was for our good. He liked doing things that he thought were for our good."

"I do not see what any of that has to do with me. He doesn't sound like a monster, just an inefficient sovereign. Unless it did actually improve your civilisation, then I suppose that he would be farsighted instead."

"Far-?"

"Yes? Educators frequently compel people to do things that they do not want to in order to teach them. I would never do anything like that. Which I suppose means that Paul is correct about my morality."

"Fascinating as I find moral philosophy, could I please return your attention to the juluuni..?"

Thaddeus nods, apparently dismissing the aggrieved Lantern Natu from his awareness.

"It is custom work, only vaguely similar to the phages they have used before. Humanoid species might resemble one another, but chemically they're all very different. In some places I can tell what they've changed by comparing it to other creatures, but in others I can only… Guess."

"Can they be changed back?"

"These juluuni haven't ever been anything else. These were almost certainly grown in a tank. See here?" He presses a button and calls up a wire frame hologram. "Multiple feed tube scars and no abdominal attachment point. If it were me, I would do the initial work on adults and then work out how to code the alterations into their germline, but I am far better at it than whoever did this."

"So is that a no?"

"I can use other examples from their ecosystem and reconstruct a lot of it. Or just make something new. I have a program which I use for subverting automatons which can learn function from form, and I think I could probably adapt it to genetic programming and biological specimens. But it would not be the same." He brightens up slightly. "It would probably be better. But not the same." He shrugs. "If that matters to you."

Threllian glares at him. "It matters to me."

"They won't even have done the same thing to your species. And you have records good enough to undo what they've done."

"If they're growing extinct species in tanks, that would mean that they have records of their original genetic structure somewhere, wouldn't it?"

Lantern Natu nods. "It should. They can't have known what all of their modifications would do until the… Their slaves grew to maturity."

"Good to know. Sorry, Thaddeus, it looks like we won't need your program."

"How about these ones?"

I look over the juluuni currently on the examination beds. What to do with people the Reach have mind controlled is an issue that the Controllers have had to deal with for the entire war. Not every N.E.M.O. member has the same solution. Most will allow reversions to be performed where the technique for undoing the mental alterations is known. Just about all are fine with summary executions where that isn't possible, though the more technically savvy ones prefer live specimens. Earth standard prisoner of war rules aren't followed by anyone… Or perhaps I should say Earth's official prisoner of war rules. I don't think I'd have to look all that hard into the war with the Sheeda -or any other war- to find examples of prisoners being killed out of hand because it wasn't practical to do anything else.

But I don't think we're quite there-.

I glance at Thaddeus.

But I don't think I'm quite there yet.

"Put them in suspended animation and prepare for the next batch. We can study them more once we're out of hostile territory."

Lantern Natu nods.

"Illustres, I've found something curious." Lantern Threllian creates a construct image of a ship. "The fleet has purged records of its point of origin, but they were visited by this. They were in the process of installing something when you destroyed them."

I frown.

"That's the Free Lancers' ship. What were they doing here?"

Darko · Jun 13, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
captured and current paralysed juluuni officers

'currently'

Mr Zoat said:
"Yeah, but that bit made sense. I'd kill a few people because I needed something which they had or because I could learn something from doing it. I would not do it simply because they were there. That feels… Wrong." He looks introspective for a moment. "Am I having a moral intuition?"

Is Junior learning how to not be a monster?

Mr Zoat said:
I don't think that you or Georgia have your father's inability to understand morals or social organisation

Ehh, Thad Senior seemed to have a fairly normal childhood before he went off the deep end, while his two youngest were practically mad scientists since they could hold a wrench or scalpel, so that may not be true.

Georgia may be better at it, but it's not anything to write home about.

Mr Zoat said:
but as time when on he

'went on'

Mr Zoat said:
"Fascinating as I find moral philosophy, could I please return your attention to the juluuni..?"

But you usually can't stop talking about philosophy. Even when people have no wish to hear you speak.

Especially when they don't want to hear you.

Mr Zoat said:
far better at it them whoever did this."

'it than'

Mr Zoat said:
Their slave grew to maturity."

maybe 'slaves'

Mr Zoat said:
mental alterations is knows.

'known'

Mr Zoat said:
Lantern Natu nods-.

Remove the - .

hance1986 · Jun 13, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
If it were me, I would do the initial work on adults and then work out how to code the alterations into their germ line, but I am far better at it them whoever did this."

it feels like this should be ' gene line ' since Thaddeus is talking about better bio alterations that stick to the next generation.

Chojin Patriarch · Jun 13, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
25th August 2012
00:49 GMT

Orange strands shimmer as Lantern Threllian goes to work on the two cores I was able to recover.

"So that you are aware, the ships used by my people don't have central servers."

So it won't be as simple as a quick smash'n'grab move to collect them. Means OL might have to try and take a ship mostly intact, depending on level of armaments and resistance. Or simply hack every device on the fleet at once and create a data dump.

"Noted."

"That's interesting." Thaddeus has the laboratory's computer bring up a full genetic workup of the captured and current paralysed juluuni officers. "Not brilliant, but I suppose I can credit them with being rigorous in their simplicity."

Huh, they actually got his attention? Presumably not his respect, though. This is Tad Sivana we're talking about.

"Any idiot can make something more complicated, Thaddeus." I walk over to him to get a better-. Yeah, I've got no idea what I'm looking at. "The Reach were trying to achieve a particular social aim, not learn more about biology."

"Why?"

"No, seriously, why? Why bother?" Yes, I can see Mister 'morality is irrelevant to science' being confused here.

I take a moment to stare at him.

He frowns. "What?"

"I'm sorry, for a moment there it sounded like you had a moral objection."

No, he has an intellectual one. It can be hard to tell for someone as bankrupt as his First National Fuck Repository is.

"You remember what you said to Father about 'alternate moral paths'?"

I wince inwardly, but keep smiling. "That… Was a small part of a larger discussion about moral systems w-."

Yes, please do take a tiny thing out of context and use it as the basis of your whole argument.

That isn't a weak debating stance at all.

"Yeah, but that bit made sense. I'd kill a few people because I needed something which they had or because I could learn something from doing it. I would not do it simply because they were there. That feels… Wrong." He looks introspective for a moment. "Am I having a moral intuition?"

"Um. Maybe. I don't think that you or Georgia have your father's inability to understand morals or social organisation, so it's possible. But in reference to the moral paths I was talking about, that might just mean that you are far less moral than most people and it takes more to arouse your distaste."

It's a matter of efficiency, I suspect. The Reach's methods are clearly not up to his rigorous standards of quality.

"How would I know?"

I look over to the data cores Threllian is analysing. "How would you feel about me destroying those?"

Threllian: "Not till after I'm done, thank you!"

He looks at them for a moment, then shrugs. "I do not care. The technology is not particularly advanced. I could easily create something better."

"If you're not offended by the fact that I could be destroying unique information, then it's probably not an alternate moral system. If you were actually following a moral code of wissenschaft über alles, it would offend you."

That might need some explaining: Wissenschaft is a German concept. While English simply translates it to Science, it can more represent Learning or Knowledge (The English translation dismisses the Humanities/'soft sciences' side of things.) So the phrase would mean 'Learning (without prejudice) above all'. Kind of fits with Tad's own philosophy, but not perfectly, as OL notes.

He frowns. "So your conclusions is that I'm not so much dedicated to knowledge as I am monstrously jaded?"

"It's a tentative conclusion based on insufficient evidence, but it does sound like it."

So he's not morally bankrupt... He's just an arsehole.

So, an ordinary teenager, but instead of girls or masculinity, he obsesses over SCIENCE!

His frown deepens. "I do not like that. I do not like that at all."

Over to our right, Lantern Natu squeezes her eyes closed for a moment before turning to face him.

"You're not suppose to like being a monster."

Ah, Lantern Natu has some strong personal opinions about that? I suppose she would, given her people's history.

Thaddeus folds his arms across his chest. "What do you know about it?"

"Thaal Sinestro used to rule my homeworld. He wasn't.. terrible to begin with, but as time when on he became more and more anal retentive. Littering became an arrestable offence with gaol time. He shut down off-world travel because he said it encouraged disorder."

To be fair...

Thaddeus nods. "Yes, contact with out-of-context ideas generally does encourage disorder."

...Yes, that. And a control freak like Sinestro could not abide that, after all.

"It paralysed our entire civilisation. Nothing that he didn't approve of was allowed to happen and he-. He genuinely believed that it was for our good. He liked doing things that he thought were for our good."

"I do not see what any of that has to do with me. He doesn't sound like a monster, just an inefficient sovereign. Unless it did actually improve your civilisation, then I suppose that he would be farsighted instead."

...And there's his arsehole showing again. Not seeing the atrocities for the improvements. I suspect Tad would look at a hut made of freshly-flayed bones and complain that they're not good building materials, rather than that the people they came from died slowly and painfuly.

"Far-?"

"Yes? Educators frequently compel people to do things that they do not want to in order to teach them. I would never do anything like that. Which I suppose means that Paul is correct about my morality."

...Oh, boy, is that a loaded statement. I suspect it's mostly because of Tad's own arsehole nature that teachers couldn't work with him easily...

"Fascinating as I find moral philosophy, could I please return your attention to the juluuni..?"

Thaddeus nods, apparently dismissing the aggrieved Lantern Natu from his awareness.

Which would be hard for anyone else, because if she's wearing anything like her canon Lantern gear, few straight men would be able to do so as easily. Yowza. But no, Tad is oblivious to hot ladies...

"It is custom work, only vaguely similar to the phages they have used before. Humanoid species might resemble one another, but chemically they're all very different. In some places I can tell what they've changed by comparing it to other creatures, but in others I can only… Guess."

"Can they be changed back?"

To what? How many generations back have they been bred like this?

"These juluuni haven't ever been anything else. These were almost certainly grown in a tank. See here?" He presses a button and calls up a wire frame hologram. "Multiple feed tube scars and no abdominal attachment point. If it were me, I would do the initial work on adults and then work out how to code the alterations into their germ line, but I am far better at it them whoever did this."

"So is that a no?"

Well, at least he's proud of being a better biologist than the Reach's people?

"I can use other examples from their ecosystem and reconstruct a lot of it. Or just make something new. I have a program which I use for subverting automatons which can learn function from form, and I think I could probably adapt it to genetic programming and biological specimens. But it would not be the same." He brightens up slightly. "It would probably be better. But not the same." He shrugs. "If that matters to you."

I kind of think the guys in charge at least want juluuni somewhat similar to their historical selves. Rather than optimised versions of their race with no mental similarities...

Threllian glares at him. "It matters to me."

"They won't even have done the same thing to your species. And you have records good enough to undo what they've done."

True, they at least have live specimens, Threllian included. But that still doesn't make it feel any better to hear.

"If they're growing extinct species in tanks, that would mean that they have records of their original genetic structure somewhere, wouldn't it?"

Lantern Natu nods. "It should. They can't have known what all of their modifications would do until the… Their slave grew to maturity."

So... Find the place these guys were made, and do some digging for genome stockpiles? Long odds of success, and dangerous as hell.

"Good to know. Sorry, Thaddeus, it looks like we won't need your program."

"How about these ones?"

...Maybe they can be used for propaganda?

I look over the juluuni currently on the examination beds. What to do with people the Reach have mind controlled is an issue that the Controllers have had to deal with for the entire war. Not every N.E.M.O. member has the same solution. Most will allow reversions to be performed where the technique for undoing the mental alterations is knows. Just about all are fine with summary executions where that isn't possible, though the more technically savvy ones prefer live specimens. Earth standard prisoner of war rules aren't followed by anyone… Or perhaps I should say Earth's official prisoner of war rules. I don't think I'd have to look all that hard into the war with the Sheeda -or any other war- to find examples of prisoners being killed out of hand because it wasn't practical to do anything else.

Different moralities, different characters between species. One culture might find prolonged confinement dishonorable compared to a death in combat, others might be horrified at the taking of life outside the heat of battle... N.E.M.O. leaders must be doing quite the political juggling act to try and satisfy them all.

But I don't think we're quite there-.

I glance at Thaddeus.

But I don't think I'm quite there yet.

Yeah, I don't think Tad's in this for the long haul. It's an interesting diversion for him, but that's all it is...

"Put them in suspended animation and prepare for the next batch. We can study them more once we're out of hostile territory."

Lantern Natu nods-.

Not the best conditions to do detailed study, no.

"Illustres, I've found something curious." Lantern Threllian creates a construct image of a ship. "The fleet has purged records of its point of origin, but they were visited by this. They were in the process of installing something when you destroyed them."

I frown.

"That's the Free Lancers' ship. What were they doing here?"

...Shiiiit. Those three seem to have their fingers in a lot of pies...

Well, that complicates matters.I wonder if the next fleet will have similar conditions? At least Threllian's people have better chances of being revived, given their more plentiful untainted samples. But goddammit, the Free Lancers? Something is rotten in the Periphery, and they just reek of it...

crazygrox · Jun 13, 2021

Mr Zoat said:
"If they're growing extinct species in tanks, that would mean that they have records of their original genetic structure somewhere, wouldn't it?"

Lantern Natu nods. "It should. They can't have known what all of their modifications would do until the… Their slave grew to maturity."

"Good to know. Sorry, Thaddeus, it looks like we won't need your program."

I sense another attempt to lure Paul into a trap. Probably from the same planner as the one who set up the Qwa matter.

Mr Zoat
Is there any plan to use the Garrick formula in the war against the Reach?
The use of the Danner formula in the presence of comparison with power armor and power rings and the limited potential number of human recruits to take it, and the use of the thinking cap in in comparison with hired telepaths from Mars able to sub in for humans wearing it(who, just like the Martians, would suffer from limited numbers and the Reach probably already having counters to telepathy), are both rather limited.
The Garrick formula coupled with a subspace arsenal on the other hand could be enough to clear out truely colossal land areas very quickly, potentially even making it possible for a single soldier to clear a planet in a reasonable timeframe.
And brings forth options that I'm not sure the Reach would have a ready counter to, given how incredibly unusual high-end speedsters are.
Were there some terms on Paul being given access to it that would prevent such a use? I don't remember.

Darko · Jun 13, 2021

crazygrox said:
I sense another attempt to lure Paul into a trap. Probably from the same planner as the one who set up the Qwa matter.

Mr Zoat
Is there any plan to use the Garrick formula in the war against the Reach?
The use of the Danner formula in the presence of comparison with power armor and power rings and the limited potential number of human recruits to take it, and the use of the thinking cap in in comparison with hired telepaths from Mars able to sub in for humans wearing it(who, just like the Martians, would suffer from limited numbers and the Reach probably already having counters to telepathy), are both rather limited.
The Garrick formula coupled with a subspace arsenal on the other hand could be enough to clear out truely colossal land areas very quickly, potentially even making it possible for a single soldier to clear a planet in a reasonable timeframe.
And brings forth options that I'm not sure the Reach would have a ready counter to, given how incredibly unusual high-end speedsters are.
Were there some terms on Paul being given access to it that would prevent such a use? I don't remember.

The Garrick formula is an alchemical formula, so it can only be used by ordinary humans.

Aliens may not be able to due to different arcane structures, and Paul also can't take it.

Darko · Jun 13, 2021

Chojin Patriarch said:
Yes, please do take a tiny thing out of context and use it as the basis of your whole argument. That isn't a weak debating stance at all.

He's a supervillain.

They're not known for logical or deep thinking.

Chojin Patriarch said:
So he's not morally bankrupt... He's just an arsehole.

Who's morally very, very poor.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Oh, boy, is that a loaded statement. I suspect it's mostly because of Tad's own arsehole nature that teachers couldn't work with him easily...

I think his dad taught him everything.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Well, at least he's proud of being a better biologist than the Reach's people?

Not a great thing to be proud of.

Chojin Patriarch said:
But no, Tad is oblivious to hot ladies...

Actually when Kori came to Earth he was stuttering and blushing.

I guess he either doesn't find Natu that attractive, which compared to Kori isn't that hard to imagine, he's gotten over such things, or is more interested in the Reach genetics experiment.

Handlewithcare · Jun 13, 2021

I don't fet why explaining morality to Thaddeus is so diffcult.

He cares for his family, so he's not a complete sociopath.

Simply explain to him that others feel the same attachments and negative emotions if that is violated and combine it with the Golden Rule.

Reciprocal curtesy is really not all that hard to grasp.

BlueMangoAdea · Jun 13, 2021

Handlewithcare said:
I don't fet why explaining morality to Thaddeus is so diffcult.

He cares for his family, so he's not a complete sociopath.

Simply explain to him that others feel the same attachments and negative emotions if that is violated and combine it with the Golden Rule.

Reciprocal curtesy is really not all that hard to grasp.

But why should he care about the fact that others feel bad? He isn't reliant on them, and he can get away with it.

NightmareWarden · Jun 13, 2021

Darko said:
The Garrick formula is an alchemical formula, so it can only be used by ordinary humans.

Aliens may not be able to due to different arcane structures, and Paul also can't take it.

It can be used on dogs, so it should work on other earth mammals. I recall that released rabbits became a scourge in Australia and we already know how dangerous rats have been for humans. Swarms of Garrick-rats and Garrick-mammals, if they maintain their enhancements after long periods of time away from thaumically-active worlds, could be a useful tool. They'd be able to affect large swathes of wilderness and urban areas without requiring the focus of a Lantern.

I'd compare them to those terrifying bugs ring-Sinestro wanted Grayven (renegade Paul) to use.

Less likely to attack humanoids though I suspect.

BlueMangoAdea · Jun 13, 2021

NightmareWarden said:
It can be used on dogs, so it should work on other earth mammals. I recall that released rabbits became a scourge in Australia and we already know how dangerous rats have been for humans. Swarms of Garrick-rats and Garrick-mammals, if they maintain their enhancements after long periods of time away from thaumically-active worlds, could be a useful tool. They'd be able to affect large swathes of wilderness and urban areas without requiring the focus of a Lantern.

I'd compare them to those terrifying bugs ring-Sinestro wanted Grayven (renegade Paul) to use.

Less likely to attack humanoids though I suspect.

Might be worth it to Garrick an animal and then assimilate it.

Handlewithcare · Jun 13, 2021

BlueMangoAdea said:
But why should he care about the fact that others feel bad? He isn't reliant on them, and he can get away with it.

Because if he cares about his own feelings it isn't rational not to care about anyone's feelings.

There is no logical reason why the feelings of only one person should matter. Either they are all judged to be of some inherent worth or none are.

Darko · Jun 13, 2021

Handlewithcare said:
Because if he cares about his own feelings it isn't rational not to care about anyone's feelings.

There is no logical reason why the feelings of only one person should matter. Either they are all judged to be of some inherent worth or none are.

I think you're forgetting the fact that Thaddeus Junior isn't exactly sane, and thus may find it extremely hard or even impossible to grasp certain things no matter how hard or carefully they're explained to him.

What one person finds easy to grasp another may have no idea what it is.

He may just not be capable of considering the feelings of others aside from a few.

Emotions also aren't exactly completely logical and can vary in some pretty extreme ways.

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