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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Dude, that's because of out of character shit. Do you have any idea how hard it is crafting level appropriate adventures for someone with OL specs?
 
Queshire said:
Dude, that's because of out of character shit. Do you have any idea how hard it is crafting level appropriate adventures for someone with OL specs?
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Actually yes. I do have some idea. Hence why I'm poking at the character and not the author.

Why I very clearly say OL instead of Paul or anything like that.

I still find OL to be weak as a newborn kitten. Mind you, I'm a lifelong Incredible Hulk and Thor reader....so I'm rather versed in incredibly powerful characters.

I do have to ask, if OL had taken out what's his name on his own, without Effigy's help...would that really have been out of line? I ask because so many people tended to grumble that OL was overpowered back on SV that I sometimes wonder if OL's helplessness is a direct result of that. Though I have more faith in Zoat to not be so easily swayed. Were this an actual comic, that's what I'd guess the answer to be.

Finally, a long time ago, OL faced an invading force armed with Apokoliptian tech in Adom's country. He managed to take out numerous soldiers and a specially designed Warbot. He did this all by himself, and with his own power.

I no longer have any faith that OL is still a character that could perform such a feat. When confronted by a threat, I expect him to either lose, or be bailed out per the norm.
 
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Maxx Crowley said:
It was a jacked up Pidgeon of war, and by the end it was questionable whether the leadership above whoever Boss Smiley was impersonating even knew what was going on. Or cared for that matter.

OL has already poked the Greek and Norse Gods, and Gravyen took a Zeus bolt to the skull. I will not ascribe any more power or importance to the abrahamic deity then they get.

The fact remains that NOTHING OL did that entire arc mattered. Meanwhile, Harm, a guy he actually beat once, was flattening Silver City forces left and right.

I barely understand why OL bothers with having a power ring any longer. Minus it's ease of use. I do take solace in his armor actually mattering.

I so loathe the "armor is useless" trope.

Magic has been shown to be the most powerful force in the universe, and even something as mundane as Telekinesis has consistently outperformed him. Being the thing that actually won the day in this very fight.
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The Abrahamic deity has been hinted at being pretty much the source (or a fragment of it) hasn't it?

I don't remember OL flat out beating harm didn't OL just manage to run away after being sucked into hell during the Lazarus pit experiments? maybe in the devil jizz arc? but that was before he started industrializing for war with said silver city, Harem was levelling himself in anti-angel abilities for months and then he could counter them.

I'd say a fair amount of what he did mattered in that arc, he opened negotiations with hell, planted seeds of doubt in the faith of the silver city and reduced and personally crippled a number of angels.

Yeah he's poked fun at Greek and Norse gods he never outright beat them or fought them, Grayven took a hit from Zeus because of New god tech armour not just straight on the skull if Zeus god serious and came down from Olympus Grayven would get smited. (however much I love the best dad)

Magic in this universe was destroyed (by a large extent) by the guardians, wasn't it? (I might be misremembering that) anyway, Magic is not an auto-win button different levels of magic can lose to higher levels of tech or biology in specific circumstances.

Effigy is better at telekinesis than OL is at magic, on that count new goddess of magic Zatanna would probably stomp him.
 
DAT_NOOB said:
The Abrahamic deity has been hinted at being pretty much the source (or a fragment of it) hasn't it?
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No, the implication is that God per se doesn't exist as anything more as an invalid anthropomorphization of the Source.

To paraphrase the FAQ That No One Reads, "No evidence of Zeus But Nice, but there is something beyond the Source Wall, and the power of theurgy comes from somewhere..."

DC comics has also implied that the Presence and the Source are the same thing, like when Mr Miracle visited Heaven and felt the Source, and would be an explanation of how a New God and a parademon were shown to wind up in Hell after death.
 
DAT_NOOB said:
The Abrahamic deity has been hinted at being pretty much the source (or a fragment of it) hasn't it?
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I do not know. On a personal note however, I will reject that notion. WoZ may be different.

DAT_NOOB said:
I don't remember OL flat out beating harm didn't OL just manage to run away after being sucked into hell during the Lazarus pit experiments? maybe in the devil jizz arc? but that was before he started industrializing for war with said silver city, Harem was levelling himself in anti-angel abilities for months and then he could counter them.
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I'm fairly certain he fought Harm before that. Once when Hell attacked him and the Hawks while at their home. I could be misremembering, but I recall OL killing Harm. I think also fought before Harm went to hell. Could be wrong.

Also, though OL has been raptured by Harm's looks twice I believe, he's still just Harm, not Harem ;)

DAT_NOOB said:
I'd say a fair amount of what he did mattered in that arc, he opened negotiations with hell, planted seeds of doubt in the faith of the silver city and reduced and personally crippled a number of angels.
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I don't...remember seeing that much outcome occuring. The War Pidgoen smacked him around, then smacked him around some more, then denied him like...everything, chased him to hell and easily killed him in close range.

DAT_NOOB said:
Yeah he's poked fun at Greek and Norse gods he never outright beat them or fought them, Grayven took a hit from Zeus because of New god tech armour not just straight on the skull if Zeus god serious and came down from Olympus Grayven would get smited. (however much I love the best dad)
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I would probably enjoy seeing that.

Point being, that I, personally, do not ascribe more importance to the abrahamic god over the rest. The very idea offends me. Greatly.

DAT_NOOB said:
Magic in this universe was destroyed (by a large extent) by the guardians, wasn't it? (I might be misremembering that) anyway, Magic is not an auto-win button different levels of magic can lose to higher levels of tech or biology in specific circumstances.
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Magic has been shown to utterly shit on EVERYTHING that isn't other magic. I don't recall a single instance of magic losing to anything else. Nabu for instance smacked the shit out of everyone, including Adom, and only lost because of some John Constantine fuckery beforehand.

DAT_NOOB said:
Effigy is better at telekinesis than OL is at magic, on that count new goddess of magic Zatanna would probably stomp him.
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Well yes, Magic IS the most powerful force in the universe thus far.
 
Honestly, have to agree with Maxx Crowley here. OL hasn't really won an important fight in a long time. It's a pain to watch him get smacked around constantly.
If him being OP for fights is a problem, Zoat should go find other challenges that aren't fighting. Hell, stuff like schizotech integration and schools for metas and all that fun stuff... that's all stuff OL just... doesn't do anymore, and that would be great. Grayven seems to be doing pretty well on that front, after all.

Hell, if OL was given or used weapons that actually did something I'd be pretty happy, but it looks more like he got hit with the nerf bat than his enemies being demonstrably stronger.
 
Maxx Crowley said:
Magic has been shown to utterly shit on EVERYTHING that isn't other magic. I don't recall a single instance of magic losing to anything else. Nabu for instance smacked the shit out of everyone, including Adom, and only lost because of some John Constantine fuckery beforehand.
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In other words
 
Honestly I dont want OL to be OP just....increased in power a little bit for what he "supposedly" can do...
 
Maxx Crowley said:
I do not know. On a personal note, however, I will reject that notion. WoZ may be different.

Also, though OL has been raptured by Harm's looks twice I believe, he's still just Harm, not Harem ;)

I don't...remember seeing that much outcome occurring. The War Pidgeon smacked him around, then smacked him around some more, then denied him like...everything, chased him to hell and easily killed him in close range.

Point being, that I, personally, do not ascribe more importance to the Abrahamic god over the rest. The very idea offends me. Greatly.

Magic has been shown to utterly shit on EVERYTHING that isn't other magic. I don't recall a single instance of magic losing to anything else. Nabu for instance smacked the shit out of everyone, including Adom, and only lost because of some John Constantine fuckery beforehand.

Well yes, Magic IS the most powerful force in the universe thus far.
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I accept this, as I also am not sure and may very well be wrong.

Sexy, sexy harm.

when he went to the ice fortress he fired mage slayers at angels and Zauriel commented that the amount of brutality OL demonstrated was disturbing, as their skulls cracks and bones shattered.
Also after he died and went to heaven he mind-controlled a couple of angels then straight up told the angel (and I believe one of the kings) that boss smiley might be pretending to be god and provided evidence to the angel or at least implied that someone was interfering with the silver city.

Importance sure, raw power on the other hand... Especially when they're using faith-based mages to turbocharge themselves. (although I'm pretty sure DC cannon has Zeus = same level as Abrahamic God = same level as Shazam)
But once you start getting into type greens power levels get vague.

I was gonna say new god tech but that's technically magic so I'll say the guardians of the universe bitch slapped most of the alien magic that existed. Other than that the Ophidian beat Zatara and father Mattis (as well as anything else OL's friends tried.)
Also pretty sure Adom is magic.

Well, all the gods (including the new gods and the source) are pretty much magic (Zatanna negative 14) so yeah I guess. *Grayven yells at me in the background*
 
Ways and Means (part 20)
  • Threadmarks
    • 24th January
    22:01 GMT

    Guy folds his arms across his chest and affects an expression of mock affront.

    "What did'ja do this time?"

    I look around what was until recently a largely empty region of space, which is now studded with the bright green lights of a Green Lantern Corps Honour Guard taskforce.

    "I found Devlos Ungol and a piece of the Anti-Monitor's armour."

    He frowns. "Dev-? Oh, him. I thought Abin Sur already killed him."

    A faint pulse of orange light flies from my ring to his, and his eyes flash green as he absorbs my recording of the fight.

    "Okay, guess not then. But what's with the 'management meetin''?"

    He nods in the direction of the armour fragment, where Hinon and Jevek are deep in discussion with Herupa Hando Hu and Broome Bon Baris. Two Guardians leaving Oa is… Basically unheard of in the modern age. A blue-skinned male humanoid whom Hinon told me is Zamaron's representative floats a little further away. I'd like to have a word with him about the 'shooting me while on a peaceful diplomatic mission' thing, but I suppose that the potential reappearance of the Anti-Monitor does rather take priority.

    "The Anti-Monitor is bad, very bad. They thought that they'd unmade him-." Is the Anti-Monitor male-? No, don't worry about it. "And it turns out that at the very least a piece of his armour survived. Quite aside from the issue of other people reverse engineering this piece or any other piece that might have survived, it might-."

    "The Anti-Monitor might still be alive and kickin', right." He looks over to the Zamaron representative. "That chick looks kinda… Like a dude?" I frown at him. "Not sayin' there's anything wrong with that, just that alla the Zamaron's I've ever met don't."

    "I was assuming that he was a man."

    "Isn't their whole thing that they don't have any men? I mean… Hal had more contact with them than I ever did, but I sure don't remember seeing any skinny guys in the mission reports."

    "I don't know. Last time I went to Zamaron they tried to kill me."

    Guy smiles as something occurs to him. "Hey, you don't think he's 'the guy', do you?"

    "The guy?"

    "Yeah, you know. What they wan'ed Hal for. They don't like men but little Zam-" I close my eyes and bow my head. "-arons gotta come from somewhere, so they get one guy-."

    "I doubt it very much. It's more likely he's the son of a Zamaron, and they contacted him to represent them here. He might not have even been to Zamaron. And I very much doubt that Lantern Jordan would have-."

    Two flashes of light flare a little way from us as Stewart and Xor appear. Guy and I turn and raise our right hands in greeting as they approach.

    "Hey, John. How'd it go?"

    "Handed a couple of hundred pirates over to local authorities. Took their ships mostly intact, too."

    "Oh yeah? How'd you manage that?"

    John pulls a small object out of subspace-. It's a crumbler round. I smile.

    "Knocked a hole in their shields with this and then breached their hull. They were falling over themselves to surrender." John crosses his arms across his chest. "I think there'll be a lot less piracy in this Sector-."

    "-ridiculously simplistic and superstitious-."

    I spot Hinon turn her head and glare Jevek into silence.

    "Sector now." Stewart looks over to the five person conference. "We allowed to know what they're talking about?"

    "The Anti-Monitor."

    "That's the Qwardian God of Destruction, right?"

    "Sort of. From what Hinon was willing to explain to me, he was some sort of eldritch monstrosity the maltusians fought a long time ago and was supposed to have been erased from the universe. Only we found some of his armour."

    "Illustres, would you be so good as to join us?"

    I nod to my colleagues as I float towards them, Guy's mildly reproachful stare following me.

    The Guardians regard me with interest, while Jevek doesn't deign to look at me and the Honourable Member for Zamaron is more interested in the armour. Green-. Green? Yes, green wisps of light flicker around his outstretched hands as he tries to get the force field around the armour to respond in some way.

    "My Controller. How may I help this august assemblage?"

    Hinon raises her left hand, armour fragments floating above it. "How did you do this?"

    "Orange light can feed on other energy sources. One of my techniques involves having it feed on everything around me. Once Devlos Ungol's protective Bleed… Shield thing was neutralised, I was able to drain it."

    "Drain it of what?"

    "Yes."

    "What?

    "Whatever was there. The technique doesn't require that I understand what I'm doing."

    "Something I'm sure you find immensely helpful."

    "Given that I was fighting someone who could perform limited physics overwrites, yes, actually."

    "Please demonstrate for our colleagues."

    "Alright, but you should probably stand back."

    Herupa regards me patiently. "We are maltusians. We have been exposed to the glow for longer than there has been multicellular life in this Space Sector."

    "Yes sir, you're packed full of nice juicy energy. That's why I'm suggesting that you back up."

    He looks at Hinon for a second before returning his attention to me. "It may be that I am unfamiliar with some of the orange light's more sophisticated applications."

    He and Broome warp back and raise a-. Ow, a blindingly intense shield. Hinon settles for floating back a little, Jevek watches me blankly and the chap from Zamaron raises a shield of his own.

    FEED ME!

    Jevek backs up at once, while the Zamaronian looks more puzzled than concerned. His shield fails, and he replaces it only for it to fail again. Then he backs up and recreates it once more. I wonder if I could get through the force field surrounding the armour fragment like-

    "That's quite enough, thank you."

    -this.

    I shut it down, and the maltusians float back together. Hinon gestures at me while looking at the Guardians.

    "You see?"

    Broome's.. really good at looking creepy. "Yes. We agree that your proposed course of action is correct."

    "That being?"

    Jevek turns in my direction, his face still betraying no expression. "They wish to destroy this armour rather than study it. The dispute was over whether you could have defeated Devlos Ungol without Effigy. Among other things, we now believe that you could."

    "Other than the obvious danger of the technology, is there a reason to destroy it?"

    Hinon nods. "While we are uncertain as to how this survived, most of the possible models which we have conceived involve him having a way to claw his way back into existence from any anchor point. This would be one."

    "In that case, for what it's worth… I think destroying it is the best plan."
     
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    • Mr Zoat said:
    Jevek turns in my direction, his face still betraying no expression. "They wish to destroy this armour rather than study it. The dispute was over whether you could have defeated Devlos Ungol without Effigy. Among other things, we now believe that you could."
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    Heh, now even the Maltusians are vouching for him.
     
    Maxx Crowley said:
    Magic has been shown to be the most powerful force in the universe, and even something as mundane as Telekinesis has consistently outperformed him. Being the thing that actually won the day in this very fight.
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    Didn't Hinon say that magic was basically non-functional (or at least far weaker) off of Earth?
     
    That is an established thing. One of the things Mother of Mercy showed OL during his lotus eater illusion was something to spread the range of magic to a space station. I believe it was called something like a yggdrassil root or seed?
     
    Rhomanion1 said:
    Didn't Hinon say that magic was basically non-functional (or at least far weaker) off of Earth?
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    Probably. Though, that'd be the ONLY thing it has working against it at this point.

    That, and I highly doubt high level magic users like Dr. Fate would have much of an issue off planet.
     
    Z000 said:
    but magic is controlled mana

    and mana = life

    how would it not work off world ?
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    Every sentient being seems to have souls, given the discussion of ghosts trapped in space and the Hellwraith construct Lantern sensing the shaped magic of Citadelian (or Gordanian, can't remember) souls in Paragon's first episode in space/Vega.
    The issue is ambient magic, which varies in strength/intensity planet to planet. Renegade and Mordru's discussion indicates only a few planets with any notable magic field, and that information comes from Desaad's Father Box, which might be evil but probably still a credible source. Circe mentions trying to use magic to travel to space but it gets far harder the further you go from Earth. One of Paragon's goals is to try inventing the Root of Yggdrasil to actually bring magic to space stations or artificial space habitats, which could possibly work with other planets too.

    Regarding this update, while Paragon's consumption technique is justifiably powerful, it's possible to resist assimilation with enough green light/force of will, as shown by Guy, so I do feel that the green-using Maltusians should be able to hold onto their own energy or resist the feeding technique to some degree.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    "They wish to destroy this armour rather than study it. The dispute was over whether you could have defeated Devlos Ungol without Effigy. Among other things, we now believe that you could."
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    In-Universe proof that OL could have handled it. Hopefully we can agree that OL isn't being smacked around with no problem anymore. He just needed to find the right approach to use against his enemy, and Paul has a lot of options.
     
    Ngamer11 said:
    In-Universe proof that OL could have handled it. Hopefully we can agree that OL isn't being smacked around with no problem anymore. He just needed to find the right approach to use against his enemy, and Paul has a lot of options.
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    It is entirely possible that the problem isn't OL's power, but OL himself. WoZ has been that OL "doesn't like to break things" and doesn't really have a mindset for fighting.

    That being said, he also genocided a race, and after being easily murdered and soul yanked to somewhere he shouldn't be. I can't help but feel he really ought to be getting the fuck over that.
     
    Queshire said:
    That is an established thing. One of the things Mother of Mercy showed OL during his lotus eater illusion was something to spread the range of magic to a space station. I believe it was called something like a yggdrassil root or seed?
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    Which reminds me of The Secret World. I wonder if Zoat has played it?

    It's good to see Oans able to cooperate if need be and worrying that this is a situation that merrits it.

    Also, someone should have mentioned the mind bending properties of the armour, just to make sure.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    You may want to read his wiki page.
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    Just read the guy's wiki page. That explains the green. Side question, will OL have to deal with the guy's mad father, or will that not happen.

    Ganurath said:
    Jevek, if I remember right, is the Controller who made Effigy. I suspect that he was arguing that Effigy's presence was critical, or at least relevant.
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    Wonder if he's miffed about Effigy being upstaged, or curious of OL's capabilities.
     
    Z000 said:
    but magic is controlled mana

    and mana = life

    how would it not work off world ?
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    Earth, the planet, happens to contain the White Light Entity. It makes the planet rather power full of Life in a magical sense. Most other planets, even those with much larger populations, don't have that main line feed on life energies that supercharges terrestrial souls and ley lines. Other magically active worlds function by tapping into other fonts of power. Earth is a Magical Death World, and not just a crazy Technolgical Hellscape.

    It's a bit like the Tau in 40k. Yes they are alive, and have souls, and yes they can have an impact on the warp. However they have such a weak warp energy signature that they have no true psykers, and lack the ability to properly interact with the warp directly, baring some extremely powerful entities interfering. In one of the Dawn of War games they had just such a demonic creature attempt to talk with the leaders of various factions, and while the more powerful human and eldar creatures could hear it, the Tau commander just thought it was some signal noise on his radio.

    Edit: Damn, League of Shadows'ed
     
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