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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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Reminds me a little of the Young Justice SI where they form a Technology/AI version of The Green and The Red.
 
Vaermina said:
You know...

I think we should change his name to "Lawful Evil" Paul after this...
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Why? At worst, I'd say Neutral.
Bramble Thorn said:
And this also feels forced to me.
I mean, it was never his only option.
He could have gone to the honden, and been one with all the desires of the mutiverse.
His choosing to bind himself to the Greek afterlife always felt arbitrary and dumb to me.

And this episode, we find he as also stupid about it.
Because he obviously didn't do the research.

And this here now, just feels like a sunk cost fallacy, and doubling down on the stupid.
Because if his issue is 'ya gots to have a self aware afterlife' and being a dreamlike shade is inacceptable.

Stop being lazy and taking the 'powered by a forsaken child' option, get off your ass, put in the work, and find or make a better solution.

I mean the Silver City has fully aware inhabitants, and isn't powered by imprisoned Titans.
Inmates in Hell are also full aware (to the horror of most of them)
He could have went ahead with taking over Hell and making it a decent place, and solved two birds with one stone.

And that neglects the fact that even in this story, before Hades started linking souls to Erebus, some of the dead did in fact have full cognitive abilities in their own right. The exceptional ones, the heroes. So, maybe look into isolating the how and why of that and duplicating it. Arcane infusers perhaps, pumping mana into souls?

The whole thing just comes off as lazy of some sort or other.
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In this context Paul is refusing to save Erebos for the sake of his plan, but that doesn't mean that he is never going to fix it; just that it isn't a priority. Also, I don't think Paul really cares about Erebus for his own sake, since as you say he has other options, and that's if he ever even dies permanently, which seems unlikely.
 
Bud-E said:
All hail God-King Hephestus ruler of the forge and technology! I am curious how Hera would react to this she seemed to be on ok terms with Heph but according to mythology she treated like dirt for being ugly.
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They actually seem to be on good term given the fact that after her divorce from Zeus she visited him, reorganized his workshop much to his annoyance, and recommended that he should divorce Aphrodite and hook up with one of his Amazonian followers. I figure she would give Paul her blessings to see Zeus get knocked off his throne, both metaphorically and literally, and nag Hephaestus to finding a proper queen.
 
Bud-E said:
All hail God-King Hephestus ruler of the forge and technology! I am curious how Hera would react to this she seemed to be on ok terms with Heph but according to mythology she treated like dirt for being ugly.
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LazySloth13 said:
They actually seem to be on good term given the fact that after her divorce from Zeus she visited him, reorganized his workshop much to his annoyance, and recommended that he should divorce Aphrodite and hook up with one of his Amazonian followers. I figure she would give Paul her blessings to see Zeus get knocked off his throne, both metaphorically and literally, and nag Hephaestus to finding a proper queen.
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In some myths it was said that Zeus threw him off of Olympus for being ugly or trying to protect Hera, so maybe this is one of those versions.
 
Does anyone know how Godhood within the universe of With This Ring is supposed to track with a God having multiple domains? I mean, at least as far as the "Old Gods" a la Zeus or Athena go, they tend to have multiple domains within which they hold some kind of divine portfolio or power. However New Gods seem to have one main theme, maybe two at best, which doesn't seem equal.

Like could a New God acquire multiple domains? Whether natural or awakened? If they could, would it require defeating another New God and essentially taking their mantle? Or would it involve developing enough skill and power in the area of power in question, a la a God of War learning and growing their Magical skill for that kind of development to take place?
 
Xepeyon said:
Does anyone know how Godhood within the universe of With This Ring is supposed to track with a God having multiple domains? I mean, at least as far as the "Old Gods" a la Zeus or Athena go, they tend to have multiple domains within which they hold some kind of divine portfolio or power. However New Gods seem to have one main theme, maybe two at best, which doesn't seem equal.

Like could a New God acquire multiple domains? Whether natural or awakened? If they could, would it require defeating another New God and essentially taking their mantle? Or would it involve developing enough skill and power in the area of power in question, a la a God of War learning and growing their Magical skill for that kind of development to take place?
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It seems to be an issue of where they get their divinity from as far as I'm aware. New Gods have a direct tap into The Source whereas the more typical ones arise from The Dreaming and get their power from there.

What, exactly, the particulars of all that are hasn't ever been mentioned (again, as far as I know), but a half decent guess is that the gestalt belief of any given species gives rise to multifaceted gods akin to Zeus and so on from The Dreaming based off of what people think their gods ought to be. The Source meanwhile seems to hand some defining concept out and all but says "This is what you are."

No clue if it's intentional or not but it honestly feels a bit like a parallel to the living mythologies of groups like the ancient Greeks vs the more "static" ones like most of the modern Abrahamic religions. One group is a living story, the other gets defined and has to operate within that ruleset.
 
Assblaster5000 said:
It seems to be an issue of where they get their divinity from as far as I'm aware. New Gods have a direct tap into The Source whereas the more typical ones arise from The Dreaming and get their power from there.

What, exactly, the particulars of all that are hasn't ever been mentioned (again, as far as I know), but a half decent guess is that the gestalt belief of any given species gives rise to multifaceted gods akin to Zeus and so on from The Dreaming based off of what people think their gods ought to be. The Source meanwhile seems to hand some defining concept out and all but says "This is what you are."

No clue if it's intentional or not but it honestly feels a bit like a parallel to the living mythologies of groups like the ancient Greeks vs the more "static" ones like most of the modern Abrahamic religions. One group is a living story, the other gets defined and has to operate within that ruleset.
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The odd thing though is the most recent chapter essentially calls Gods the terminals of the Titans. Meant to be a layer of abstraction built upon the underlying primal force to better allow them to interact with humanity and/or other forms of complex life.

So Zeus is originally linked with Aether, so you would think theoretically should be limited to the boundaries of Aether's domain. But Zeus has elements completely outside of Aether like Justice.

Meanwhile you would think that even if the Source worked the way you are describing, a person could embody more than one domain given how complex beings are usually complex. Sure, it might be difficult for two seemingly mutually exclusive domains, like Tyranny or Freedom (Which arguably have their own links so they're not necessary two complete opposites either), but I see no reason why a Domain like Nature or Conquest couldn't also be embodied by a God of Magic.

We even see mortals getting the New God upgrade here in the fic in areas which arguably will inevitably end up touching upon one another. What happens when there are two ascended New Gods of Magic? And we know there can be multiple Gods of Conquest running around a la Grayvern and Paul. So that adds another layer of confusion onto it all imo.
 
Vaermina said:
He's literally putting together a plan that involves sacrificing an unborn child to power up a god...

There is no world that isn't evil...
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Vaermina response.

This unborn child is less a person and more a fundamental force of nature, like sunlight or ocean currents. While it may one day develop a consciousness, it is currently no more than a representation of technology. What is technology? Items designed and built to serve a purpose. Taking this nascent being and crafting it into a tool would not be some gross injustice. The act isn't even that far from this being's domain. I doubt that there would be much suffering on the technology titan's part. And leaving the creature to its own natural birth holds the risk of uncontrollable devastation. Much better to take part in the act and ensure that all goes well. As far as anyone can tell, no one suffers, a good god gets a well deserved gift, and danger is prevented.
 
Xepeyon said:
Does anyone know how Godhood within the universe of With This Ring is supposed to track with a God having multiple domains? I mean, at least as far as the "Old Gods" a la Zeus or Athena go, they tend to have multiple domains within which they hold some kind of divine portfolio or power. However New Gods seem to have one main theme, maybe two at best, which doesn't seem equal.

Like could a New God acquire multiple domains? Whether natural or awakened? If they could, would it require defeating another New God and essentially taking their mantle? Or would it involve developing enough skill and power in the area of power in question, a la a God of War learning and growing their Magical skill for that kind of development to take place?
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I think Zoat once mentioned that New Gods can only have one domain.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Assimilation, most likely. It's a slow starter, but stick with it, it gets good.
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One of the best YJ fics out there.

The MC is a great character and the romance between him and Kori was just incredibly sweet.
 
Michael Vonica said:
Vaermina response.

This unborn child is less a person and more a fundamental force of nature, like sunlight or ocean currents. While it may one day develop a consciousness, it is currently no more than a representation of technology. What is technology? Items designed and built to serve a purpose. Taking this nascent being and crafting it into a tool would not be some gross injustice. The act isn't even that far from this being's domain. I doubt that there would be much suffering on the technology titan's part. And leaving the creature to its own natural birth holds the risk of uncontrollable devastation. Much better to take part in the act and ensure that all goes well. As far as anyone can tell, no one suffers, a good god gets a well deserved gift, and danger is prevented.
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It's still sacrificing an unborn child...

Now, maybe maybe you could excuse that if the power boost was needed to stop say, Darkseid. But Lawful Evil Paul wants it to punish a guy for giving a friend of his a shit job after she refused to sleep with him.

That's like... Not even Constantine would do something like that...
 
Vaermina said:
It's still sacrificing an unborn child...

Now, maybe maybe you could excuse that if the power boost was needed to stop say, Darkseid. But Lawful Evil Paul wants it to punish a guy for giving a friend of his a shit job after she refused to sleep with him.

That's like... Not even Constantine would do something like that...
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John Constantine killed the newly born Anti-Christ with an axe. He'd be all for doing something like this if he thought it was worth it.
 
Vaermina said:
It's still sacrificing an unborn child...

Now, maybe maybe you could excuse that if the power boost was needed to stop say, Darkseid. But Lawful Evil Paul wants it to punish a guy for giving a friend of his a shit job after she refused to sleep with him.

That's like... Not even Constantine would do something like that...
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So is contraception. I am not going to touch an abortion debate here. But it basically is.

Paragon is by no measure a good person, but at worst he operates on a very blue-orange morality. Quite literally. And it at least open about how his morality is focused on "his" as opposed to a form od common good. He has no issue with stuff that Zeus or Nabu does whrn other people do it as long as they don't do it to his friends. He has excused far worse than what Zeus has done here. Not just excused, but he even has activrly enabled some behavior worse.
 
rkyeun said:
No, it's not still that, for the reason explained, and repeating yourself doesn't slip a black ring onto your argument's finger.
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Yeah, at most it's like sacrificing an unborn child that will grow up to be that nearly omnipotent kid from the Twilight Zone ep It's a Good Life" that sent anyone who displeased him "to the cornfield", if they were lucky...
 
Cuchulin said:
Yeah, at most it's like sacrificing an unborn child that will grow up to be that nearly omnipotent kid from the Twilight Zone ep It's a Good Life" that sent anyone who displeased him "to the cornfield", if they were lucky...
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He could also grow up to be the next Bill Nye The Science Guy.
 
Cuchulin said:
Yeah, at most it's like sacrificing an unborn child that will grow up to be that nearly omnipotent kid from the Twilight Zone ep It's a Good Life" that sent anyone who displeased him "to the cornfield", if they were lucky...
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No, it's like wiping a cumshot off the floor. It has the potential to become a being, if a certain chain of events happen and it lands in a fertile place. But that isn't currently the case. Right now, it's a half-full turkey baster of god goo.
 
Coup Data (part 15)
  • Threadmarks
    • 27th October 2012
    09:35 GMT +3

    "Halt, dem-!"

    Zagreus spots me, and lowers his bow.

    "Lantern, I realise that you are frequently a stranger to reason, but we try to keep demons out of Erebos."

    Richard Simpson tries to make himself look smaller. The thaumically active and anatomically accurate android body he's currently in doesn't have any sort of size-changing ability, and the warding chains that prevent him accessing his more exotic abilities are in place to prevent him adding such an ability. As a result, he's limited to cringing. It's a bit odd; he's not any physically weaker than Nergal was, and all that will happen if his body gets damaged is a few minutes of inconvenience for me.

    "Mister Simpson has information vital to a project I'm pursuing, and I need to get him and Hecate together in one place."

    Zagreus doesn't look impressed.

    "I was coming to the palace to get permission from Lord Hades; you just intercepted us before we arrived."

    "Really."

    "I respect Lord Hades."

    His right hand goes to his forehead. "Then in my father's name, tell me what you are planning."

    "Are you sure that you want me to?"

    He regards me for a moment.

    "No. No I am not. But I have a duty."

    "Are you familiar with the term 'plausible deniability'?"

    "Yes. I assume that you're going to do something I might want to deny having known about."

    "I say no such thing. But you could see how something like that could be-."

    "Go. Go. Just-. Go."

    "Thank you!"

    I pick up Mr. Simpson with a construct and fly at speed in the direction of Hecate's Pool Party.

    "You didn't tell Hecate I was coming either, did you?"

    "No. But I'm confident that she'll be interested to meet you."

    "How come?"

    "Wouldn't you rather live in a universe where she is than a universe where she isn't?"

    "Shiiiiiiiit."

    A couple of probably-Amazons are mock-wrestling on the inflatable, while there's a greater current of action amongst the others. Eris-

    "Hey!"

    -is holding court, but pushes through the swimwear-clad courtiers to get closer to me the moment we make eye contact. At least she's wearing clothes now.

    "Lady Eris. This is-."

    "Does Hades know you've got a demon?"

    "He will once Zagreus tells him. This is Mister Richard Simpson."

    Eris looks at him, an expression of amused curiosity on her face.

    "A demon lord hiding in a robot body. Did you do that?"

    "I did most of the robot. The rest was him. Is Lady Hecate still around?"

    "A demon, a goddess and a giant snake walk into a pool party." She smiles. "I've got to know the punch line."

    Mr. Simpson looks around a little awkwardly as Eris leads the way back towards the tower. "I wasn't expecting a pool."

    "It's a reward for working out how to purify the river Lethe. They've been working on that for a while."

    "Purify as in..?"

    "Turn it into normal water, with the residue being a nasty mind wipe magic."

    She shoves the door open and marches inside.

    "He-cat-ay! My guy's doing his thing again!"

    The shop from before is gone, replaced by a slightly old school arcane workshop. Hecate in teenager mode is standing at a lectern, reading through a modern book on Atlantean thaumaturgy.

    She looks at Mr. Simpson, who raises his right hand to wave awkwardly.

    "What is this? A demon golem?"

    "No." Mr. Simpson shakes his head. "I was a human studying how to use altered states of consciousness to allow the human mind to directly interface with electronic systems. A bloke called John Constantine asked me to have a look at this weird cult called the Resurrection Crusade. I got him the info, but they-. I got too focused. Didn't spot their defence spells. My body got burned to ash while I was still inside."

    "But you're a demon golem."

    "Getting to that. John got into a fight with Nergal, and since he's a fifty a day smoker he wasn't going to outrun him. Instead, he did what I did: put his soul into a computer system. So I took his body and ended up face to face with Nergal. Bloody lucky he realised I wasn't John-. Then I showed Nergal how to go after John, and John got him to chase him into Heaven's data network. Angels burned Nergal to death, but I still had John's cancer-ridden body. Which for some reason, John wanted back. So John convinced me to take Nergal's body instead. I managed to integrate with it -which wasn't much fun- and got to enjoy it for a whole five seconds before Agony and Ecstasy dragged me to hell."

    Hecate considers this.

    "They burned his spirit, while the physical form remained. And you were able to interface with it?"

    "Well, yeah. I'd been living in a computer, dodging technomantic defences and dealing with a reality the human mind isn't designed for. Compared to that, a thing made of human vice was easy."

    "What an adaptable consciousness you must have. And why are you in a golem?"

    "I did okay in hell. Even took over the Odium. But it was still hell. I wanted out, and the best way looked like using the dream of machines to bootstrap myself into full godhood. Only this-. Lantern, stopped me. Made me this body so I don't have to worry about the other demons finding me, but that's not a permanent solution."

    "The dream of machines? What do you-?" Her eyes widen slightly. "Oh."

    I nod. "Modern machines are like nothing in nature. They have their own nature that doesn't shade into anything else in the Dream. Mister Simpson found something emerging. I want the two of you to put your heads together to see if it can be used to empower a god enough that they'll be able to fight Zeus."

    "That is interesting." Hecate looks at Eris with a smile. "I see why you like this one."
     
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    • Mr Zoat said:
    "Lantern, I realise that you are frequently a stranger to reason
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    Hah!

    So true!

    Mr Zoat said:
    It's a bit odd; he's not any physically weaker than Nergal was, and all that will happen if his body gets damaged is a few minutes of inconvenience for me.
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    Except he may also end up stuck in Erebos and then in Tartarus.

    Or Zagreus' arrows could actually permanently kill him.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "I respect Lord Hades
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    Though you have an odd way of showing it.

    Mr Zoat said:
    was a human studying how to use altered states of consciousness could
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    'consciousness to'

    Mr Zoat said:
    My body got burned to ask while I was still inside."
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    'to ash'

    Mr Zoat said:
    Hecate considers this.

    "They burned his spirit, while he physical form remained. And you were able to interface with it?"
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    Getting some ideas on how to get rid of Zeus.

    Mr Zoat said:
    That is interesting." Hacate looks
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    'Hecate'
     
    Ngamer11 said:
    John Constantine killed the newly born Anti-Christ with an axe. He'd be all for doing something like this if he thought it was worth it.
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    Yeah, Constantine's moral limit may be baby rape.

    That's probably one of the few lines he won't cross, but he'll still do a lot of things that aren't so evil.

    The problem with that is that a lot of things can still be extremely evil but not in the same level as baby rape.

    Radix said:
    So is contraception. I am not going to touch an abortion debate here. But it basically is.

    Paragon is by no measure a good person, but at worst he operates on a very blue-orange morality. Quite literally. And it at least open about how his morality is focused on "his" as opposed to a form od common good. He has no issue with stuff that Zeus or Nabu does whrn other people do it as long as they don't do it to his friends. He has excused far worse than what Zeus has done here. Not just excused, but he even has activrly enabled some behavior worse.
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    Yeah, Luthor comes to mind.

    The guy has done a lot of evil shit but Paul hasn't been all that interested in opposing him just because it hasn't hurt people he cares about.

    Though he seems to have forgotten all the times the Light tried to kill him and his friends.

    Heck, he even helped Luthor.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    "It's a reward for working out how to purify the river Leith. They've been working on that for a while."
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    That should say 'Lethe'. The water of Leith is a real world river.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "They burned his spirit, while he physical form remained. And you were able to interface with it?"
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    That should say 'his'.

    Mr Zoat said:
    "The dream of machines? What do you-?" Her eyes widen slightly. "Oh."

    I nod. "Modern machines are like nothing in nature. They have their own nature that doesn't shade into anything else in the Dream. Mister Simpson found something emerging. I want the two of you to put your heads together to see if it can be used to empower a god enough that they'll be able to fight Zeus."

    "That is interesting." Hacate looks at Eris with a smile. "I see why you like this one."
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    Nice to see that she's onboard with this. It's always nice to have gods with whom you are friendly with.
     
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