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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

I feel like he's being played.

After all, why would they need a few hundred New God handguns when they just got Krypton's entire database?
Greed and desperation? Alstair's new plant tech seems to have given them an edge and the Dhorians may try to get as much as they can in anyway that they can to try and bridge the gap.
 
Greed and desperation? Alstair's new plant tech seems to have given them an edge and the Dhorians may try to get as much as they can in anyway that they can to try and bridge the gap.
But greed and desperation still need a target tempting enough to overcome caution.

And what's the New God target here that justifies a full on assault that could cost them their entire fleet now that they got all of Krypton's technology?
 
But greed and desperation still need a target tempting enough to overcome caution.

And what's the New God target here that justifies a full on assault that could cost them their entire fleet now that they got all of Krypton's technology?
They didn't send their entire fleet. Also, they probably just saw big and impressive tech that they couldn't immediately understand and decided to take the risk.
 
Greed and desperation? Alstair's new plant tech seems to have given them an edge and the Dhorians may try to get as much as they can in anyway that they can to try and bridge the gap.
That. Isn't Kryptonian tech usually pretty hard to reverse engineer too, and I can't see 4th World tech being much easier. I mean, you can push a button easy enough but building a cell phone with 17th century manufacturing capabilities? Gonna take a while.
 
That. Isn't Kryptonian tech usually pretty hard to reverse engineer too, and I can't see 4th World tech being much easier. I mean, you can push a button easy enough but building a cell phone with 17th century manufacturing capabilities? Gonna take a while.

In Zoat's version 4th World tech would be basically impossible since large portions of it are "insert connection to the Source here". Though it appears to be considerably easier for them to build something that other species can use, even if it could never have been produced without the Source. (Apokolips handing out nasty weapons is canon across a lot of continuities including Young Justice itself.)

Actually, that explanation kind of bridges the gap. Apokolips is known for handing out New Gods weapons to local patsies. It's one of their favorite strategies when they want to invade a planet but don't want to commit many actual troops. It makes sense the that Dhorians have heard about that and figured this is a good opportunity to sweep in and steal some of those fancy weapons. Stealing them from "the patsies that Apokolips handed them out to" is bound to be considerably easier than "stealing them from New Gods" and also less likely to get a meaningful response from Darkseid.

Of course to make this trip worthwhile, they need to get some of the good stuff not just fancy handguns. Even one device that could make boom tubes would be a major strategic asset. Or maybe one of those fancy Techno-Seeds that makes a Brimstone. One of the strategic level weapons, that's the real prize.
 
Random question is Lois ok? Last I remember seeing her she was about to be kidnapped by anti-life alliance goons, and I doubt Superman wouldn't have immediately dropped everything to rescue her, but I haven't heard anything mentioned of her since then.
 
So I may be wrong here but as someone who hasn't had the time to stay fully up to date with this story and mostly just checks in every now and then, I'm getting really sick of the Apokolips/Anti-Life story.

It feels to me like Zoat took the, in my opinion rather nonsensical, "things never go wrong" criticism and has vastly over corrected resulting in just constant disaster after constant disaster, ie a normal comic story which is kinda the opposite of what I read this for.

It also has the significant problem of unless this is literally the final arc and we're ending things soon there's no real way to end it satisfyingly and maintain any future sense of danger or scale
 
So I may be wrong here but as someone who hasn't had the time to stay fully up to date with this story and mostly just checks in every now and then, I'm getting really sick of the Apokolips/Anti-Life story.

It feels to me like Zoat took the, in my opinion rather nonsensical, "things never go wrong" criticism and has vastly over corrected resulting in just constant disaster after constant disaster, ie a normal comic story which is kinda the opposite of what I read this for.

It also has the significant problem of unless this is literally the final arc and we're ending things soon there's no real way to end it satisfyingly and maintain any future sense of danger or scale

This is just Manheim and a portion of thr ALE. It isn't endgame Darkseid. They can free Earth and there is still his looming threat. Plus the risk of what he is doing either the White Light. Sinestro is also being seeded and is up to something.

Still several villains who can pop up to get focus. Honestly I am glad we are back on earth. Vega was good, but most of the space stuff just loses me. It is a bunch of people from a couple pages in comics getting a bunch of focus, and then we never see them again. Like those Titan guys. 2 entire episodes and then just gone without much impact.

Stuff like Xor worked because he was established in a familiar context and has a recurring role. His first class of Orange Lanterns was great and we got some setup for some following him. But that got dropped and we keep rotating cast. The recurring characters is what makes the earlier stuff so good. Renegade has kept that since Renegade generally builds stuff up and keeps it around.
 
Pyrrhucy (part 13)
14th February 2013
15:25 GMT -5


Abra and the newly introduced Nohnar Ko are working on repairing his communication system. Looks like Team Mannheim did a bit more damage than I thought, and Eiling tearing him out of it didn't do it any favours. Eiling is sitting at the side of the tunnel and has his eyes shut. Not sure whether he's resting his eyes or 'resting his eyes', but I imagine that high-intensity combat still tires a person out, even with his augmentations.

Mr. Mahkent is.. giving me an odd look. And avoiding making eye contact when I turn to see if he wants to ask me something.

"Icicle, if this is about me asking you to go back and pick up the armour-."

"No-." He glances at the other three, and awkwardly sidles over to me. "Kinda?"

"I generally make a point of not looking into someone's head unless there's a good, mission-based reason to do it, so you're going to have to explain that one with… You know, words."

Finally, he looks me straight in the eye. "You really take the Terrors to the moon?"

"Yes. Made a giant draughts board and a toilet cubicle, and tried to encourage them to do something more productive with their abilities."

He frowns. "Tommy said it was checkers."

"That's what we call checkers in Britain."

"And… That was it." He looks bewildered. "You talk to them, and suddenly they're playing for the hero team?"

"No. Tommy started understanding that they might have been going about things in the wrong way, and Tuppence started thinking that there might be other right ways to get things. Where they are now is a result of engaging with Doctor Quinzel, building emotional bonds to upstanding citizens and me finding them an outlet for their abilities and… Frankly, their psychopathology."

"Tearing up ships with their bare hands."

"Nothing wrong with smashing stuff. It's a matter of finding things other people want you to smash. Take you for example. Is anything you've done fighting Mannheim anything you haven't done in your criminal career?"

"Killed a couple of guys. Hadn't done that before." He scratches his forehead with his right hand, then shakes his head. "Don't know if they were all there. Kinda… Hope they weren't."

"Mister Mahkent, are you hoping I can talk you back onto the straight and narrow?"

"I-. Kinda-. Don't.. know? I mean, if we're all getting pardoned after this, it-. It seems like I'm wasting an opportunity, y'know? I'm a 'steal stuff' kinda villain, not a 'burn the whole world down' kinda villain. And the world… It's kinda been burned down, y'know?"

"You would be wasting an opportunity, if you went right back into criminality. At the very least you should consider completing your education before getting back into it."

"'Stay in school'?" He frowns. "Seriously, dude? Not feeling the super persuasion right now."

"It gives you more options. More chances to find something that you might like to do with your life. Being honest? From my own education I use… Basic maths, English for report writing, and geography and history for general knowledge. That's about it. As a criminal you probably don't need to worry so much about written reports, but you could use accounting. And there's a lot of money in narcotics, so history, geography and chemistry would come in handy."

He gives me a small smile. "Ah, I dunno what school you went to? But they don't teach you how to make crack at Smith O'Neil High School."

"No, but they teach you how to handle laboratory equipment. It's all about transferable skills. It's not like I write reports on Shakespeare for Batman, is it?"

He straightens up, throwing his hands into the air. "You see! This is the sort of thing I-."

He grunts, cutting himself off. Not sure what that's about, but I think the best thing to do here is let him talk himself around to it.

"Try… Considering what society is going to look like when we win."

"If we win."

"If you're Anti-Lifed or dead, it's hardly going to matter what career you wanted to pursue. Better to have something to aim for."

He nods. Then starts nodding more slowly. Then stops.

"Ah. I got nothing."

"Massive infrastructure collapse. Economic collapse. Heck, honestly, the global economy was severely shaken up by the Sheeda invasion. This is going to finish it off."

"So… What?"

"So goods aren't going to be transported around anymore. Did you know that ninety percent of Earth's advanced semiconductors are made in Taiwan? They're used for basically everything with computer chips in them, which is… Everything. And Taiwan had no defence against Anti-Life, so that's not happening anymore. And with all the deaths, it might not start up again."

"So… I shoulda gone to electronics class?"

"If you know a supervillain who's into electronics, see if they need electricity-free cooling to start a business. Honestly-." I frown. "When you manifest ice, does it just turn back into water when it melts?"

"Ah, yeah? What else would it turn into?"

"How pure is the water?"

"Ah…" He frowns. "I think it's pure? I've been putting it in drinks and no one's said anything. Why?"

"Because the water supply is probably going to be messed up too. If you can make any amount of clean water wherever you are, that's a good money maker. See, my ice… Guy is-."

"Captain Cold, yeah, I know." He rolls his eyes. "Everyone knows."

"But he can't do that. His cold gun freezes what it hits. If he wants to cover something in ice then he needs a water source or one of his gel packs. He can't just make ice out of nothing."

"Yeah, but…" He screws up his face. "Water?"

"Do you seriously not understand how valuable water is? There are whole… Chunks of the country that would pay you to drop a couple of gallons on them once a week. Drive up, wave your hands around for a few hours, then leave. Completely legal."

He sort of gawps for a few seconds, then closes his mouth and shakes his head.

"Particularly after a disaster. Clean water is hard to come by. Now, with a total economic collapse, you probably won't be able to make much money, but you'll be able to barter very effectively. Use that to build connections with the community and invest in long term assets that will gain value as civilisation reasserts itself."

"I… Dunno. That's a lot to take in."

"It's like I told Thomas: if you make more money following the law than committing crime, you need to either go legit or find a better law to break."

"Orange Lantern!" Abra looks up from his work, smiling. "We have contact."
 
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And that's why the only Supervillains that "make sense" are those that are totally crazy, totally evil or totally megalomaniac. Any supervillain that actually wants to make money, should be trying to make money the smart and "legal" way. Just look at Bezos, Musk, etc.
*shrug* I think grudge based supervillains are not that farfetched. Like if the villain has a specific thing against the hero, the villain doesn't have to be totally crazy or totally evil to make sense. Just tad bit irrational and emotional.

Alternatively, you could make the government so terrible that being a supervillain and defying it is the moral choice.

Bit iffy to call such a person a supervillain though.
 
"So goods aren't going to be transported around anymore. Did you know that ninety percent of Earth's advanced semiconductors are made in Taiwan? They're used for basically everything with computer chips in them, which is… Everything. And Taiwan had no defence against Anti-Life, so that's not happening anymore. And with all the deaths, it might not start up again."
There's no way this is accurate given what you built up in this story already Mr Zoat.
 
14th February 2013
15:25 GMT -5


Abra and the newly introduced Nohnar Ko are working on repairing his communication system. Looks like Team Mannheim did a bit more damage than I thought, and Eiling tearing him out of it didn't do it any favours. Eiling is sitting at the side of the tunnel and has his eyes shut. Not sure whether he's resting his eyes or 'resting his eyes', but I imagine that high-intensity combat still tires a person out, even with his augmentations.

Mr. Mahkent is.. giving me an odd look. And avoiding making eye contact when I turn to see if he wants to ask me something.
Honestly, as awesomely unstoppable as his body may be (whether Shaggy Man or Dannered up as it may be,) the all-too-human brain inside isn't. He's lucky he hasn't had said brain pulverised by some of the forces involved in superhuman combat. And Icicle is being surprisingly coy about something, I see...

"Icicle, if this is about me asking you to go back and pick up the armour-."

"No-." He glances at the other three, and awkwardly sidles over to me. "Kinda?"
Ah, looking for as private a conversation as you could get in these quarters?

"I generally make a point of not looking into someone's head unless there's a good, mission-based reason to do it, so you're going to have to explain that one with… You know, words."

Finally, he looks me straight in the eye. "You really take the Terrors to the moon?"
Is that all this is? Feeling jealous that they got to go to space?

"Yes. Make a giant draughts board and a toilet cubical, and tried to encourage them to do something more productive with their abilities."

He frowns. "Tommy said it was checkers."

"That's what we call checkers in Britain."
And those things will no doubt confuse someone someday. Assuming they don't get obliterated by a meteorite or something.

"And… That was it." He looks bewildered. "You talk to them, and suddenly they're playing for the hero team?"

"No. Tommy started understanding that they might have been going about things in the wrong way, and Tuppence started thinking that there might be other right ways to get things. Where they are now is a result of engaging with Doctor Quinzel, building emotions bonds to upstanding citizens and me finding them an outlet for their abilities and… Frankly, their psychopathology."
It didn't happen overnight, if that's what you think, Cam.

"Tearing up ships with their bare hands."

"Nothing wrong with smashing stuff. It's a matter of finding things other people want you to smash. Take you for example. Is anything you've done fighting Mannheim anything you haven't done in your criminal career?"
Honestly, I could see whole troops of ship-breakers paying weeks.. months of wages for a dose of Danner augmentation... Just the jump in safety alone...

"Killed a couple of guys. Hadn't done that before." He scratches his forehead with his right hand, then shakes his head. "Don't know if they were all there. Kinda… Hope they weren't."

"Mister Mahkent, are you hoping I can talk you back onto the straight and narrow?"
Because it really does sound like he is wanting that.

"I-. Kinda-. Don't.. know? I mean, if we're all getting pardoned after this, it-. It seems like I'm wasting an opportunity, y'know? I'm a 'steal stuff' kinda villain, not a 'burn the whole world down' kinda villain. And the world… It's kinda been burned down, y'know?"

"You would be wasting an opportunity, if you went right back into criminality. At the very least you should consider completing your education before getting back into it."
And I doubt the courts would be as kind to you the next time they see you...

"'Stay in school'?" He frowns. "Seriously, dude? Not feeling the super persuasion right now."

"It gives you more options. More chances to find something that you might like to do with your life. Being honest? From my own education I use… Basic maths, English for report writing, and geography and history for general knowledge. That's about it. As a criminal you probably don't need to worry so much about written reports, but you could use accounting. And there's a lot of money in narcotics, so history, geography and chemistry would come in handy."
Ah, OL. Thinking of things your straighter-laced former teammates never would have.

He gives me a small smile. "Ah, I dunno what school you went to? But they don't teach you how to make crack at Smith O'Neil High School."

"No, but they teach you how to handle laboratory equipment. It's all about transferable skills. It's not like I write reports on Shakespeare for Batman, is it?"
And given the conditions of some schools in DC-verse, you might manage to get that sort of education anyway.

He straightens up, throwing his hands into the air. "You see! This is the sort of things I-."

He grunts, cutting himself off. Not sure what that's about, but I think the best thing to do here is let him talk himself around to it.
The sort of things he'd never have thought of? Man needs to actually try thinking, then.

"Try… Considering what society is going to look like when we win."

"If we win."
Careful, that kind of attitude could invite in the Anti-Life.

"If you're Anti-Lifed or dead, it's hardly going to matter what career you wanted to pursue. Better to have something to aim for."

He nods. Then starts nodding more slowly. Then stops.
After all, someone with something to fight for fights better.

"Ah. I got nothing."

"Massive infrastructure collapse. Economic collapse. Heck, honestly, the global economy was severely shaken up by the Sheeda invasion. This is going to finish it off."
Unless some very rich men manage to prop it up. Hey, Lex, Bruce..!

"So… What?"

"So goods aren't going to be transported around anymore. Did you know that ninety percent of Earth's advanced semiconductors are made in Taiwan? They're used for basically everything with computer chips in them, which is… Everything. And Taiwan had no defence against Anti-Life, so that's not happening anymore. And with all the deaths, it might not start up again."
A literal case of putting all your eggs in one vulnerable basket...

"So… I shoulda gone to electronics class?"

"If you know a supervillain who's into electronics, see if they need electricity-free cooling to start a business. Honestly-." I frown. "When you manifest ice, does it just turn back into water when it melts?"
A good question, as not all Ice powers work the same way.

"Ah, yeah? What else would it turn into?"

"How pure is the water?"
And does it need to exist in the environment beforehand, or does he manufacture it ex nihilo somehow?

"Ah…" He frowns. "I think it's pure? I've been putting it in drinks and no one's said anything. Why?"

"Because the water supply is probably going to be messed up too. If you can make any amount of clean water wherever you are, that's a good money maker. See, my ice… Guy is-."
Heh. Worried about a measure of professional jealousy, OL?

"Captain Cold, yeah, I know." He rolls his eyes. "Everyone knows."

"But he can't do that. His cold gun freezes what it hits. If he wants to cover something in ice then he needs a water source or one of his gel packs. He can't just make ice out of nothing."
Nor can Mister Freeze. His freeze-rays seem to operate more on a propelled gel or chemical solution.

"Yeah, but…" He screws up his face. "Water?"

"Do you seriously not understand how valuable water is? There are whole… Chunks of the country that would pay you to drop a couple of gallons on them once a week. Drive up, wave your hands around for a few hours, then leave. Completely legal."
Yup. There's a reason water treatment plants are important for built-up communities.

He sort of gawps for a few seconds, then closes his mouth and shakes his head.

"Particularly after a disaster. Clean water is hard to come by. Now, with a total economic collapse, you probably won't be able to make much money, but you'll be able to barter very effectively. Use that to build connections with the community and invest in long term assets that will gain value as civilisation reasserts itself."
And he can do it with a lot less overheads, so he could undercut water companies hard and fill a city's reservoirs in no time for a lot of money.

"I… Dunno. That's a lot to take in."

"It's like I told Thomas: if you make more money following the law than committing crime, you need to either go legit or find a better law to break."

"Orange Lantern!" Abra looks up from his work, smiling. "We have contact."
Ah, dang. Interrupted by plot.

Well, Icicle's got a lot to think about now. With any luck, he can get out of the vicious circle of super-villainy (Need money? Commit crime. Get face-punched by vigilante. Go to jail. Get out of jail. Need money.) Which will put him ahead of most of his Belle Reve housemates. Now, to see what the Dhorian commanders have to say for themselves...
 
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And that's why the only Supervillains that "make sense" are those that are totally crazy, totally evil or totally megalomaniac. Any supervillain that actually wants to make money, should be trying to make money the smart and "legal" way. Just look at Bezos, Musk, etc.

Icicle Jr has the excuse of being the son of a Supervillain, so want the approval of a parent that is a Supervillain also "makes sense".
 
I knew I remembered it right.
"I'm making sure this bit goes alright, then I'm… Going back to Earth. I'm going to try putting Doctor Roquette in touch with Leonard Snart, she was having problems setting up cold fields for her nanofabricator… Unless you think there's something else I'm missing?"
You literally had Doctor Roquette setting up nanofabricators a couple years back.

Yet somehow that just disappeared?
 
Honestly, the Shaggy Man's body may be awesomely unstoppable, but the all-too-human brain inside isn't. He's lucky he hasn't had said brain pulverised by some of the forces involved in superhuman combat. And icicle is being surprisingly coy about something, I see...
This version of Eiling got his powers from Danner Formula infusions through stem cells, if I remember correctly.
 
*shrug* I think grudge based supervillains are not that farfetched. Like if the villain has a specific thing against the hero, the villain doesn't have to be totally crazy or totally evil to make sense. Just tad bit irrational and emotional.

Alternatively, you could make the government so terrible that being a supervillain and defying it is the moral choice.

Bit iffy to call such a person a supervillain though.

Depends on the grudge, really. Because having a grudge against a hero or other do-gooders because they're doing their job? Sounds crazy to me. Like Prometheus. Or because the hero or x individual had different circumstances than you, like Hush.

If you have a grudge against the hero because of an actual injustice, are they really a Hero, and are you really a villain? Like in The Boys.

And with the Government trope, same thing, not really a villain if you oppose them.

Having a grudge just because or for unjustifiable reasons makes those villains as crazy as the unmotivated world conquerors.
 
From my own education I use…
Lot of book knowledge OL
Comic book knowledge that is..

as: if you make more money following the law than committing crime, you need to either go legit or find a better law to break
I'd agree with everyone saying that villains don't make sense.
But as I got older I realised something.
A lot of people are dumb.

You can almost see their cognitive process.
I have superpowers
I need money
Banks have money.

Now I have the image of a little girl with a lemonade stand selling 'Super Water'.

Customer says "hey this water didnt make me super, I want my money back"

Little girl points to herself and says
"I'm super" fills a pitcher of water with a wave of her hand and says "This is water"

"No refunds"
 
"Yes. Make a giant draughts board and a toilet cubical, and tried to encourage them to do something more productive with their abilities."
'Made'

I think another reason for being a non-crazy, non-stupid supervillain is the good old negative utilitarianism. At least when it comes to ending the world. And I suppose you could use regular utilitarianism for motivating world domination, if you genuinely thought that you could do a better job than the current rulers and that the results of you helping without ruling the world wouldn't be good enough. Neither of these is a very common motivation for supervillains, though, I think.
 
'Made'

I think another reason for being a non-crazy, non-stupid supervillain is the good old negative utilitarianism. At least when it comes to ending the world. And I suppose you could use regular utilitarianism for motivating world domination, if you genuinely thought that you could do a better job than the current rulers and that the results of you helping without ruling the world wouldn't be good enough. Neither of these is a very common motivation for supervillains, though, I think.
Arguably, those are just insane supervillains. :V
 

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