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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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- self insert young justice
FreeGod
If you see a God on the road fuck it!
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That isn't the point. The point is to take away the moral high ground.
Darko
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Paul's that choose a side like to needle the other side if they think that side has wronged them.
It's actually a fairly prominent trait among Paul's that seem to pick the less savory sides, like this one has.
I think Zoat mentioned that since no Goa'uld would like a traitor Jaffa, then Paul was going to act like he doesn't like him to keep up appearances.
He doesn't even remember the show.
None of the Paul's remember the setting they are in.
He only remembers the movie.
AshKing
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If you reread the start of the story you can see the effects of the people he works with has on him; regular path and the renegade path
FreeGod
If you see a God on the road fuck it!
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Orange light highlights in group out group dynamics.
Vaermina
Well worn.
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Season 4 Episode 15.
Radiation can travel backwards through an open wormhole, so Ra would have been able to detect whether it detonated or not from his ship in orbit of Abydos.
Chojin Patriarch
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The question is, if they put them back together exactly how they took them apart, will they still work? That's the drawback of destructive reverse-engineering - unless you have spares, you lose the item you're studying... Though I suppose they have multiple sources now, so not as bad a concern...
Heh.Now that would be a tempting offer. Especially if it comes with technical training in understanding the things they have.
Sadly, such missions rarely go to plan, do they?
All that protagonist energy making for complications.Is it? Humanity, at least has the handicap of only knowing what a thing does, but having to work out how for themselves. A Goa'Uld can rip that from a host's mind and arrange for a Queen to pass it on.
Well, those cleared to know about the origins of the tech, anyway.
Yes, pretty logical. Not entirely why he's doing it, I think, but good enough for government work.
Given what happened the first time they opened it, I'd say the government had good reason not to...
It is kind of a foolish reason, and he ended up poking a rather nasty little animal in its lair...
...Good comeback.
Sadly, that would be conveniently intelligent.
And to be fair, he probably expected it to be much the same as he left it, on the assumption that humans weren't clever enough to advance...
Well, it had one useful resource, but he probably found the last time he tried to dial, back after the rebellion, that transit wasn't safe...
Rocks cost money, citizen. The Empire had the right idea: massed energy-weapon bombardment. Whatever isn't fried by the blaster bolts gets cooked as the atmosphere adjusts to the sudden extra dump of thermal energy...
So they're just too much hassle to deal with? That'd deflate any 'Humans are special' ego thing they've got going.
No doubt he already knows about the whole space cruiser project they've got going on... After rummaging through their databases, anyway.
At the least, as an orbital defence blockade.
Or, perhaps, a partly-functional one? Like one he's got buried back home?
Ah, now we see the catch. Technically-free assistance in up-gearing his home base.
This generation might find it a bit tricky, but the next will take to it like water...
And if it were up to Tal;c, he'd already be getting marched down there right now?
Well, that's a bit hasty. Didn't even listen to it.
Yes, and..? You're already fighting the system. What could a little help do to hurt?
Pity he isn't feeling particularly motivated to give him some upgrades while he's at it, raise him to peak physical condition like he would have himself..
Good thing he's not armed, or you'd be staring down the barrel of a staff right now.
Exactly what you were hoping he'd do, wasn't it?
Well, that whole day...Could probably have gone better for the SGC, but I suppose Paulmon got a few nice bonuses out of it. Pretty much all the human internet downloads he could access from the base, and an opportunity to squeeze Earth for a bit more bonuses. I'm guessing his dislike of the SGC and SG-1 are mostly down to their perceived sloppiness and inefficiency, in his eyes...
Wivk
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Remember that time Daniel had the goauld ancestral knowledge given to him by shifu, the harsesis child they had dropped off with oma desala? He threw Carter in jail for trying to stop him from taking over the world then ignored Jack's attempts to talk him down. He ignored the president and the joint chief like they were ignorant children and he knew best. Because he had thousands of years of memories of being a God and humans being slaves to feed on and torture for fun.
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Vaermina
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Eh... This is pretty stereotypical for a Paul... He always thinks his way is the best. And then get's petty with anyone who shows more success with a different method.
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Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
What, you thought that the Ancients designed the ha'tak? Those nifty animal helmets? No, goa'uld are perfectly capable of invention, they just don't usually bother to.
Chaoswind
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I mean star gate command and the united states were short sighted enough to cause a galactic war that has literal planet loads of people go silent IE die for seemingly no reason and he highlighted how they could have just turned their gate 90 degrees to achieve an absolute level of safety from the nuke they themselves lost.
Stargate are the protagonist of the series, but it doesn't take much of a critical eye to see them as self important villains, they are even putting the entire world at risk without telling other nations about it, and let's not forget their mission parameters when they learn the Russians finally managed to get their gate working.
Stargate are the protagonist of the series, but it doesn't take much of a critical eye to see them as self important villains, they are even putting the entire world at risk without telling other nations about it, and let's not forget their mission parameters when they learn the Russians finally managed to get their gate working.
Mr Zoat
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Remember when O'Neill was made a jaffa by Hathor, and they undid it using a sarcophagus? Teal'c could have done the same at almost any time.
Um, no. That was an illusion forced upon him in order to convince him not to use goa'uld knowledge. The person creating the illusion had a specific aim. Unsurprisingly, the illusion showed exactly what was needed to convince the person experiencing it.
Darko
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Jack was turned into a Jaffa, but was born an ordinary human.
Teal'c was born a Jaffa, so the sarcophagus may not have worked on him.
Chaoswind
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I mean Bratac has always been the core of the free Jaffa cause, Telac is just younger. Bratac wouldn't have taken that step back, he would have stood there to prove the point.
Paulmon is asking the Tauri, the free Jaffa and even the TokRa questions they should have been asking themselves for ages.
Paulmon is asking the Tauri, the free Jaffa and even the TokRa questions they should have been asking themselves for ages.
PepeTheFrog
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Normal Person: do you think using an orange ring to shove thousands of years of genetic memory from another person into your brain could have negative side effects?
Paul: bet
BartlettMagic
peekaboo, you fucks you!
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oh i love that. Teal'c always did come off as a bit too high-and-mighty, it'd good to see him getting taken down a peg or two.
Wivk
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Yeah that was my theory too but op attacked my example of it since it was just as, or perhaps even more, likely to be well meaning manipulation as an accurate representation of what would happen.
lancelot
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Well that failed spectacularly.
Mr Zoat also yes after several thousand years humanity is reverse engineering tech to catch up to the snakes they're at war with. Zoat you really need to have someone play devils advocate for the SGC characters because them just staring at you dumb founded, and not having a counter argument despite a number of them being obvious is ruining this segment. I get that you yourself are playing devils advocate, but this time your doing so badly and at best it comes off ham handed.
Come on Zoat that is an original art project at best, Every piece of tech in those ships, or the smart metal itself and any tech inside is ALL REVERSE ENGINEERED. But the snakes did invent the pyramid shaped hull
Really so in the show any time a jaffa has been brought back by a sarcophagus they were brought back as human? Or did that only work with Jack because the changes were, post birth, recent, and/or half assed? That seems like a terrible weakness, Oh no your First Prime died fighting off an assassin quick put him in the sarcop... oh no wait that would just make him human.
Man Zoat do you have no beta readers to bounce ideas, and conversations off of?
Lord Ernest
At the End...
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He doesn't know he's in the Stargate show, remember that the SI's don't recall the universe they're in but they may remember the setting by way of other media. He knows the Stargate movie but not that there's a show.
As mentioned by Mr. Zoat, Paulmon apparently wants to take their moral high ground away, which honestly, fair. The Goa'uld are conquering, megalomaniacal assholes but SGC is still a US black ops that apparently gets away with it.
thegamma
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Why because he refused to let a Goa'uld alter his physiology? there's no way Teacl'c would ever agree to that and the idea that Paulmon thinks he won some moral argument with this is just stupid.
Duke Long
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'rotated' and 'faced'?
jasonh23761
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Honestly, these last few episodes have had a little voice blaring in the back of my head going "Would the State Department please pick up the phone?"
There's a couple of issues present here, in that ultimately you have what is effectively an Air Force special missions unit handling diplomatic duties and not people from the State Department or at least attaches. I can understand keeping Teal'c in the loop as an expert advisor but letting him be in the same building as a non-belligerent Goa'uld is stupid, let alone allowing him to talk to the Goa'uld without a filter. Also, O'Neill would be stuck in appointments at a different facility for the duration, or just locked in a closet. No one wants a maverick anywhere near foreign dignitaries. The only people who should actually be in the room from SGC are Hammond as the ranking officer, Carter as the technical expert (for a given value), Jackson as a cultural expert (for a given value) and a guard or two.
Also, honest question, even with the need for secrecy, why hasn't the USG appointed someone as the lead for diplomatic relations with non-belligerent Goa'uld? Appointed an de-facto ambassador? Spun up a small office to establish subject matter experts? I get Mammon is kind of unique in their eyes as a non-belligerent Goa'uld but their partnership has advanced to the point they were sending him specialized labor forces as part of a reciprocal trade agreement, and he apparently is a critical supplier of exotic materials? Surely they've realized by now they need someone who actually understands economics and international relations to deal with what is effectively a ruler of a foreign stellar nation who is part of a federation of other stellar nations who are at the very least non-belligerent against Earth?
As per the division of duties and powers, this isn't something the US military should be doing, especially not the Air Force. Sure, the Air Force at the time had jurisdiction over Air, Space and Cyberspace (only kinda) but that would have gone out the window the moment hostile alien life was confirmed and what was a telescope and sensor "fight" became an infantry and small unit tactics fight. The other branches would have collaborated to muster political will internal to the DoD and within the Executive and Legislative oversights in order to get the mission set moved over to someone else, like pitching the Army and then offering up SOCOM as an acceptable compromise, making it a joint force environment. This is the Air Force we're talking about, not 1950s CIA.
Remember, this is a post-Cold War but pre-9/11 world, the branches were working overtime to justify their budgets.
All that being said, Mammon is definitely being excessively belligerent in how he conducts himself. Something like "I realize you don't trust me, but if I could offer you a way to live free of us and you were assured of it's viability, would you take it?" Teal'c probably still would have rejected it out of hand but it would look better to people like Hammond, Carter and more importantly, their bosses.
Edit: This is what happens when I rewatch shows as an adult that I enjoyed as a kid. Say what you will for Atlantis' shenanigans, but they at least had the excuse of being isolated and afraid for the first season or two.
There's a couple of issues present here, in that ultimately you have what is effectively an Air Force special missions unit handling diplomatic duties and not people from the State Department or at least attaches. I can understand keeping Teal'c in the loop as an expert advisor but letting him be in the same building as a non-belligerent Goa'uld is stupid, let alone allowing him to talk to the Goa'uld without a filter. Also, O'Neill would be stuck in appointments at a different facility for the duration, or just locked in a closet. No one wants a maverick anywhere near foreign dignitaries. The only people who should actually be in the room from SGC are Hammond as the ranking officer, Carter as the technical expert (for a given value), Jackson as a cultural expert (for a given value) and a guard or two.
Also, honest question, even with the need for secrecy, why hasn't the USG appointed someone as the lead for diplomatic relations with non-belligerent Goa'uld? Appointed an de-facto ambassador? Spun up a small office to establish subject matter experts? I get Mammon is kind of unique in their eyes as a non-belligerent Goa'uld but their partnership has advanced to the point they were sending him specialized labor forces as part of a reciprocal trade agreement, and he apparently is a critical supplier of exotic materials? Surely they've realized by now they need someone who actually understands economics and international relations to deal with what is effectively a ruler of a foreign stellar nation who is part of a federation of other stellar nations who are at the very least non-belligerent against Earth?
As per the division of duties and powers, this isn't something the US military should be doing, especially not the Air Force. Sure, the Air Force at the time had jurisdiction over Air, Space and Cyberspace (only kinda) but that would have gone out the window the moment hostile alien life was confirmed and what was a telescope and sensor "fight" became an infantry and small unit tactics fight. The other branches would have collaborated to muster political will internal to the DoD and within the Executive and Legislative oversights in order to get the mission set moved over to someone else, like pitching the Army and then offering up SOCOM as an acceptable compromise, making it a joint force environment. This is the Air Force we're talking about, not 1950s CIA.
Remember, this is a post-Cold War but pre-9/11 world, the branches were working overtime to justify their budgets.
All that being said, Mammon is definitely being excessively belligerent in how he conducts himself. Something like "I realize you don't trust me, but if I could offer you a way to live free of us and you were assured of it's viability, would you take it?" Teal'c probably still would have rejected it out of hand but it would look better to people like Hammond, Carter and more importantly, their bosses.
Edit: This is what happens when I rewatch shows as an adult that I enjoyed as a kid. Say what you will for Atlantis' shenanigans, but they at least had the excuse of being isolated and afraid for the first season or two.
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Mr Zoat
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As stated, they're catching up because most goa'uld don't bother with it, not because goa'uld can't do it. The SI said that.
SG1 were told to be polite to the guy selling them naquada. O'Neill failed.
And the phrase is 'ham fisted'.
The ha'tak was designed by Ptah, and according the roleplay sourcebook that heralded a switch away from using Ancient technology. Do you have a source for where each part came from? Because I don't remember any Ancients using weapons like goa'uld energy pulse weapons.
Thank you, corrected.
Chaoswind
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I think readers are letting their nostalgia cloud their vision, stargate was a fun science fiction tv show, but once you take a couple of steps back it's entirely about a clandestine US black ops off world operation that constantly risks the safety of the entire planet earth to the benefit of a single nation and plays fast and loose with the laws of war and very often make morally questionable choices just to keep the conflict going and the pile of peace agreements they disrupted are evidence enough.
The free Jaffa also deserve a heap of criticism, a lot of them considered themselves to be above humans and they just wanted to be the top dogs of their society, most of their leadership would refuse to become normal human without their enhancements in exchange for their freedom, Telac gets a lot better in the later seasons, but early third season Telac isn't there, I would argue of the entire free Jaffa leadership only Bratac wouldn't take that step back.
Yeah the snakes are evil assholes, but at least they have the excuse of the sarcophagus making them more evil over time and the show taking the name of so many gods and making them Goa'uld comes with the implication that they were less bad thousands of years ago and that the sarcophagus has been making them more evil as time goes on.
The free Jaffa also deserve a heap of criticism, a lot of them considered themselves to be above humans and they just wanted to be the top dogs of their society, most of their leadership would refuse to become normal human without their enhancements in exchange for their freedom, Telac gets a lot better in the later seasons, but early third season Telac isn't there, I would argue of the entire free Jaffa leadership only Bratac wouldn't take that step back.
Yeah the snakes are evil assholes, but at least they have the excuse of the sarcophagus making them more evil over time and the show taking the name of so many gods and making them Goa'uld comes with the implication that they were less bad thousands of years ago and that the sarcophagus has been making them more evil as time goes on.
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Hidden Variable
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I am surprised this need to be explained to you. Starships are not plug-and-play. Starship systems, are not plug and play. Hell, technology itself isn't plug and play unless specifically designed to be.
They do not have the full Ancient tech base, they cannot just copy their technology. They were able to steal some bits, but only Anubis a good chunk of it, due to Anubis's brief Ascension. They had to reverse engineer it yeah, that means they weren't able to copy the original designs due to lack of knowledge, and had to make something inferior whole-cloth. Ra didn't even know what ZPM's were. From the Ma'tok staff cannons, that function as both infantry weapon and scale up to starship cannon, to the Kara kesh, it's all stuff they made themselves, not adapted. It's designed in silly ways to help them look more like gods, but it's still designed. And let's be clear, they found a Stargate and figured out how to use it as primitive tribals, they found ancient technology and reverse engineered it, but it's never stated how long that took. I would assume the Ancients secured and child-proofed it like everything else they had, so I doubt it was easy. Try to keep the 'Humanity F@ck Yeah' to reasonable levels please.
And stealing more advanced technology from a technologically superior foe is perfectly valid, XCOM is a great example, or how about Stargate Tau'ri themselves? You're acting like purely original innovation is the only valid path for technological development. Well, get this, innovation is hard, and for the Goa'uld under Ra(Aside from issues with motivation, and their general decadency)? Unless you were favored? Not likely to go well. He liked to keep technological superiority over his minions. Anubis did a whole sh!tload of innovation, really scary innovation, guess how that turned out? If you've watched Stargate, you know this, you're just being obtuse. And for that matter, most of the reverse engineering humans did in Stargate was off the Goa'uld themselves. So it's only okay when the Tau'ri do it? Blehh. They didn't even keep that up, the only reason they jumped ahead of the Goa'uld tech-wise was getting access to databases of ancient tech and using that instead, like you are accusing the Goa'uld of. It wasn't innovation, they got uplifted.
Either they figured out how to program it and change what it healed, it works off the target's interpretation of personal wellness, or it's the writers taking the piss. And speaking of taking the piss...
What is this comment meant to be? Aside from vaguely insulting?
Fascinating, so does this mean Ra did actually have some fully intact, functional ancient warships? Ah, they were salvage, not likely fully functional then. Even more reason to design a ship you can repair and replace yourself.
lancelot
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Being nice doesn't mean letting the 'snake' verbally walk all over them without anything remotly resembling a counter argument. Jack is a completely separate situation and only you know why you wrote him doing that despite his orders.
So what your saying is snake FTL? Alteran knock off. Snake shields? Alteran knock off. Snake sensors? Alteran knock off. Snake Life support and gravity? Alteran Knock off. Snake pretty much everything but weapons based is based on Alteran tech, BUT maybe just maybe the plasma weapons might not be based on some old ass weapon system, a mining tool, or something else the smartest idiots in the galaxy left for the snakes to trip over?
The most impressive ships the snakes had in the series could only run thanks to Alteran power cores, something that they couldn't even make knock off of, and instead made knock offs of the back up power generators.
Also yes ham fisted thank you, I was still waking up when I posted that.
No to the point there was never a time the Goa'uld didn't have Alteran tech to base all their shit on. Meanwhile until the stargate came around humanity built their tech base up from zero, and could have kept doing that. But fighting the Goa'uld means they have to rush so now the reverse engineer. Paul compares the two as the same when humanity is 99% percent original, and the Gou'uld are 99% knock off. They are not the same.
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Whenever Possible
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But being carried by a jaffa is obviously a huge honor to a primta, so trying to stop Jaffa from using primta to have access to a broader set of capabilities, even if they don't consider the primta to be real people, would be wrong.
lancelot
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It's funny that during that whole meat suit scene in the medical wing nobody thought to bring up the fact that a lot of other snakes seem to enjoy hunting down unwilling humans to use as meat suits. For examples you need only look at the first fucking episode.
Never mind the whole part where he agreed to bring somebody back from the dead who went through that exact thing. Not a lot of moral high ground there when you're a minority in the lack of atrocities department.
Never mind the whole part where he agreed to bring somebody back from the dead who went through that exact thing. Not a lot of moral high ground there when you're a minority in the lack of atrocities department.
Chaoswind
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Are you trying to use a facetious argument?
The larval goalud are babies and can just survive in a body of water feeding on smaller fish, the goalud don't really need the Jaffa meanwhile the opposite is not true.
Whenever I get an urge to defend the Jaffa I always remember how pissed they were about taking the happy drugs instead of getting to directly enslave the Goalud/TokRa, or the level of contempt some of them have towards normal humans.
I want to highlight something renePaul himself said ages ago, he acted submissive towards the Heroes because they were massively stronger than him, Paulmon is the strong party in these negotiations and nothing short of a nuke or a high powered laser would even harm him, that is why he is behaving like an asshole because it's both in character for him to do so and they have nothing on hand to threaten him.
Funny you said that when it's Canon the Alteran survivors from Atlantis came back in the tail end of the dark ages and while most of them retired themselves to meditate and ascend, a fair number of them became men of science to enlighten humanity and did what they could within the limits set by those that had already ascended.
Before that humanity were stuck in the stone ages until the Goalud came along, so now the actual non assisted human technological development in the Stargate verse was... About the last three hundred years, during colonialism and that is if we assume the alteran/Tauri hybrids always being above the human average in intellect doesn't count.
Your high horse doesn't seem so high now does it? Stargate's brand of "Humanity Fuck Yeah" is the same as the Halo franchise, once you look under the hood things fall apart.
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Whenever Possible
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Just pointing out the parallels between the goauld-host relationship and the primta-jaffa relationship. In both cases, one party is using the other party's biology for access to enhanced capabilities (thumbs or superstrength) in both cases, the party benefitting the most is essentially the dominant party on the transaction. In both cases, the relationship is backed by the cultural expectations of Goauld society, in both cases the submissive party (host or primta) can be said to be getting some benefit (host gets access to a sarcophagus, primta is less likely to be eaten immediately).
In time, once tretonin is available, both goauld and jaffa will have other options than using human hosts or primta to get the primary benefits of the relationship, and so on.
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