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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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crazygrox said:
Go stab Cthulhu in the brain shortly after the americans summon him for another segment?
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I wonder what happened in the Justice Segue especially with Kal el
 
Avatar: Legend of Azula (part 8) New
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    • 170 After Genocide, Late winter, even later still than day

    "Assumptions can come in many varieties. A person may assume that their path is clear, only to find out that someone dug a pit trap in the middle of it."

    Korra shrugs. "Not much of a problem if you're an earthbender."

    "Oh, do you know how to use Master Toph Beifong's seismic sense technique?"

    She hesitates. "Kkkkkinda?"

    "'Kinda yes' or 'kinda no'?"

    "I'm not as good at it as Chief Beifong, but I could feel a pit trap."

    "Alright, or a thin patch of ice over a lake or a concealed archer in the trees. You know that such things exist, but in the moment you're not guarding yourself against them. We could call these things 'known unknowns'."

    She winces. "Is this like neutral jing? Because I'm.. not.. good at that."

    "No. That's-." I shake my head. "Perhaps I'm overcomplicating this. This issue with spirits is that they're so different that not only do your normal assumptions mislead you, but your very conception of how the world works misleads you."

    She still looks bemused.

    "A concrete example then. After you revealed Amon's true nature, you were able to use energy bending to restore the bending abilities of everyone he took it from. Well done, by the way. I imagine that you were tempted to leave a few without it."

    Particularly given that you gave the entire Triple Threat Triad their bending back, resulting in them going back to robbing and extorting people. The people most of Amon's converts joined up to fight against and you put them back in power. I'm sure that won't cause problems in the future…

    "That was…" She looks away. "That was mostly Aang. He energy bent me, then he walked me through doing it for other people."

    "What exactly did he show you?"

    "Ah… You know, how to touch someone's chakra points, how their energy is supposed to flow for benders, how to fix it…" She shrugs.

    "And you could use that knowledge to remove someone's bending?"

    She shifts uncomfortable. "I guess..? Aang did that to Yakone, so-. Ah, and Fire Lord Ozai, I guess-. If they were bad enough…"

    "I'm not asking if you're planning to, just if you know how to."

    "Sure. Yeah, okay, I could do that."

    "What else?"

    "Ah… What else?"

    "What else can you do with energy bending?"

    "Aaaah…" She scratches her head while she tries to come up with something. "Maybe… Like… If they had some sort of… Spiritual.. illness..?"

    "Okay, yes. What else?"

    Her frown deepens. "Well, I could see the Ophidian when I energy bent you."

    "Yes, good. What else? Remember, the theme is 'things that change the way you see the world'."

    "I can't energy bend the whole world."

    "A little literal there, Avatar Korra." She shrugs. "Alright. I'm not a bender. How different did energy bending me feel, compared to energy bending benders who'd lost their bending ability?"

    "About the same? I haven't-" She shrugs. "-energy bent any other non-benders."

    I watch her for a moment. She just stares back. I'm not sure if I've reached the limit of her attention span, or she really doesn't get it. Either way…

    "This is what I'm talking about. The thing I'm trying to get you to consider is such an alien idea that even with all of the parts… You can't work it out."

    She slumps sullenly, looking a little frustrated. "Work what out?"

    "Could you energy bend a non-bender into being a bender?"

    "Could-?" She's still staring, but now she's staring into space rather than staring at anything. "Ah… What?"

    "Or perhaps take a bender who has lost their bending and give them the wrong sort of bending back?"

    "Ahhh…" Her eyes are sort of flicking left and right as she tries to get her brain into gear. "I dunno… I mean, if they can't…" She looks at me. "Can I?"

    "That's not the question."

    "I think-" She nods. "-it is."

    I shrug. "How would I know? I'm not any kind of bender, and if any Avatar other than Aang knew how to do it then they didn't write it down anywhere where I've been able to read it. You could-"

    Her eyes go white.

    "-ask.. him."

    Hm. I know that Sir Terrance Pratchett wrote that 'the important thing about culture shock is not to give it to someone flying a ten thousand tonne rock', but I think that this is safe enough. Korra can-.

    She sits a little straighter, eyes still glowing. "That's a good question."

    That.. isn't her voice. And her desires are… Sort of recessed. "Am I..? Speaking to Avatar Aang?"

    Korra's body nods. "Korra's busy freaking out right now." He tilts her head to the side. "I'm kinda embarrassed that I didn't think of that either. I think the Air Acolytes would have really appreciated it if they could actually learn airbending. And I'd have liked having other airbenders around."

    "It might not even be possible. And that wasn't the point. The point is learning not to lose focus when something shocking and unexpected happens. And -and I intend no offence when I say this- it would probably be better if you left Korra to cope without jumping in."

    "She wanted to know if it was possible or not. But I never really experimented with it. I only thought about it as a way to stop dangerous people from hurting others, not as something I could use to enrich peoples' lives."

    "Your situation was an unusual one."

    It's more diplomatic than 'total arse-pull'. I mean seriously: all that tension about how Aang would cope with the situation, and he gets an out which allows him to avoid choosing whose existence was never previously hinted at from a being whose existence was never previously hinted at to help him fight a bender who was weaker than him anyway.

    "Bumi would be disappointed I didn't try it." Korra's mouth smiles. "Both of them. But at least Korra knows now. Thank you."

    The glow in her eyes fades as Korra regains control. She blinks slowly.

    "Aang didn't know either."

    "Then you can learn something genuinely new which you can pass on to future Avatars in turn."

    "Huh." She doesn't sound certain, but I get the impression that she likes that idea. "Yeah. I guess I can."
     
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    • Bud-E said:
    I'm a little upset with myself that I've never thought of any of this either
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    Really? The island turtle's convo with Aang hinted that this is how all of the elemental bending started in the first place. Before the Avatar pact, it was stated that everyone used 'bending' in different, individually unique ways, humans and spirits alike.

    Of course, it was only two, three lines of conversation, so there was a lot to unpack.

    Edit: I think it was an island turtle? I remember Aang talking about it with a giant sea lifeform of some kind, but it's been quite a few years...
     
    Khettien said:
    Really? The island turtle's convo with Aang hinted that this is how all of the elemental bending started in the first place. Before the Avatar pact, it was stated that everyone used 'bending' in different, individually unique ways, humans and spirits alike.

    Of course, it was only two, three lines of conversation, so there was a lot to unpack.

    Edit: I think it was an island turtle? I remember Aang talking about it with a giant sea lifeform of some kind, but it's been quite a few years...
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    They are called Lion Turtles, but you are generally right.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    170 After Genocide, Late winter, even later still than day

    "Assumptions can come in many varieties. A person may assume that their path is clear, only to find out that someone dug a pit trap in the middle of it."

    Korra shrugs. "Not much of a problem if you're an earthbender."
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    I believe you're missing the point of the thought experiment, Korra. It's not about finding loopholes to side-step a possible problem, like some role-playing game. The point is taking what you think is true as absolute.

    "Oh, do you know how to use Master Toph Beifong's seismic sense technique?"

    She hesitates. "Kkkkkinda?"
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    Is it really something you can be 'kind of' able to do? Or are there levels of perception to it?

    "'Kinda yes' or 'kinda no'?"

    "I'm not as good at it as Chief Beifong, but I could feel a pit trap."
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    In other words, you couldn't spare the skill points to level it up. :p

    "Alright, or a thin patch of ice over a lake or a concealed archer in the trees. You know that such things exist, but in the moment you're not guarding yourself against them. We could call these things 'known unknowns'."

    She winces. "Is this like neutral jing? Because I'm.. not.. good at that."
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    The what now? And no, I suspect you're getting the wrong end of the stick here.

    "No. That's-." I shake my head. "Perhaps I'm overcomplicating this. This issue with spirits is that they're so different that not only do your normal assumptions mislead you, but your very conception of how the world works misleads you."

    She still looks bemused.
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    Like gravity. Or the sun rising in the morning and setting in the evening. That's not necessarily true with spirits or the spirit world.

    "A concrete example then. After you revealed Amon's true nature, you were able to use energy bending to restore the bending abilities of everyone he took it from. Well done, by the way. I imagine that you were tempted to leave a few without it."

    Particularly given that you gave the entire Triple Threat Triad their bending back, resulting in them going back to robbing and extorting people. The people most of Amon's converts joined up to fight against and you put them back in power. I'm sure that won't cause problems in the future…
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    ...Oh, for... I mean, it would be unusually cruel to leave them without, but surely they'd be well wary that what was taken away once could be taken away again...

    "That was…" She looks away. "That was mostly Aang. He energy bent me, then he walked me through doing it for other people."

    "What exactly did he show you?"
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    Probably the same thing that the great Lion-turtle showed him, really. The same kind of thing it did for humans back before the last Convergence.

    "Ah… You know, how to touch someone's chakra points, how their energy is supposed to flow for benders, how to fix it…" She shrugs.

    "And you could use that knowledge to remove someone's bending?"
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    So she knows how it should flow for all four kinds of bending?

    She shifts uncomfortable. "I guess..? Aang did that to Yakone, so-. Ah, and Fire Lord Ozai, I guess-. If they were bad enough…"

    "I'm not asking if you're planning to, just if you know how to."
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    Because there are going to be some folks coming along down the line that would be much less dangerous without bending.

    "Sure. Yeah, okay, I could do that."

    "What else?"
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    Ah, the question a teenage girl probably didn't think about: 'Then what?' After all, teenager, not known for thinking ahead or looking back.

    "Ah… What else?"

    "What else can you do with energy bending?"
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    To be fair, it's practice by humans is so new and rare that no-one can really have experimented with it...

    "Aaaah…" She scratches her head while she tries to come up with something. "Maybe… Like… If they had some sort of… Spiritual.. illness..?"

    "Okay, yes. What else?"
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    Good, logical answer. She can see foreign energies within a person once they're linked.

    Her frown deepens. "Well, I could see the Ophidian when I energy bent you."

    "Yes, good. What else? Remember, the theme is 'things that change the way you see the world'."
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    Perhaps banishing a spirit possessing someone. Could be useful someday.

    "I can't energy bend the whole world."

    "A little literal there, Avatar Korra." She shrugs. "Alright. I'm not a bender. How different did energy bending me feel, compared to energy bending benders who'd lost their bending ability?"
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    Ironic, given that's kind of what a Harmonic Convergence is...

    "About the same? I haven't-" She shrugs. "-energy bent any other non-benders."

    I watch her for a moment. She just stares back. I'm not sure if I've reached the limit of her attention span, or she really doesn't get it. Either way…
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    To be fair, she's probably not used to thinking for herself like that. Korra is not one for reflection or consideration, even when prompted by a mentor.

    "This is what I'm talking about. The thing I'm trying to get you to consider is such an alien idea that even with all of the parts… You can't work it out."

    She slumps sullenly, looking a little frustrated. "Work what out?"
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    ...Oh, you're going to love this, sweetie.

    "Could you energy bend a non-bender into being a bender?"

    "Could-?" She's still staring, but now she's staring into space rather than staring at anything. "Ah… What?"
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    It's doable, of course. She doesn't remember it, of course, with Wan's knowledge lost deep in the Avatar line.

    "Or perhaps take a bender who has lost their bending and give them the wrong sort of bending back?"

    "Ahhh…" Her eyes are sort of flicking left and right as she tries to get her brain into gear. "I dunno… I mean, if they can't…" She looks at me. "Can I?"
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    Effectively what Raava and Wan did for a time, until the repeated shifting started causing them to stick together, so to speak.

    "That's not the question."

    "I think-" She nods. "-it is."
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    More accurately, the question is 'If I can, should I?' It's a big deal, being able to empower people that way...

    I shrug. "How would I know? I'm not any kind of bender, and if any Avatar other than Aang knew how to do it then they didn't write it down anywhere where I've been able to read it. You could-"

    Her eyes go white.
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    ...Really, you should have expected that.

    "-ask.. him."

    Hm. I know that Sir Terrance Pratchett wrote that 'the important thing about culture shock is not to give it to someone flying a ten thousand tonne rock', but I think that this is safe enough. Korra can-.
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    Or the simple practice of 'Do not distract the bus driver while the bus is in motion.'

    She sits a little straighter, eyes still glowing. "That's a good question."

    That.. isn't her voice. And her desires are… Sort of recessed. "Am I..? Speaking to Avatar Aang?"
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    The funny thing is how different his adult voice is to his kid voice. Man got deeper in more ways than one..

    Korra's body nods. "Korra's busy freaking out right now." He tilts her head to the side. "I'm kinda embarrassed that I didn't think of that either. I think the Air Acolytes would have really appreciated it if they could actually learn airbending. And I'd have liked having other airbenders around."

    "It might not even be possible. And that wasn't the point. The point is learning not to lose focus when something shocking and unexpected happens. And -and I intend no offence when I say this- it would probably be better if you left Korra to cope without jumping in."
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    That's true. There's a big difference between the millennia of experience the Lion-turtles had with attuning human spirits for bending, and two people who have only done it a couple of times...

    "She wanted to know if it was possible or not. But I never really experimented with it. I only thought about it as a way to stop dangerous people from hurting others, not as something I could use to enrich peoples' lives."

    "Your situation was an unusual one."
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    And the problem is, if you're experimenting with it, what happens to those it fails on. Sure, you could ask only for volunteers, but you might not get it right immediately...

    It's more diplomatic than 'total arse-pull'. I mean seriously: all that tension about how Aang would cope with the situation, and he gets an out which allows him to avoid choosing whose existence was never previously hinted at from a being whose existence was never previously hinted at to help him fight a bender who was weaker than him anyway.
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    Got to love how meta OL can be in these alternate universes. It was a bit of a deus ex chelonia.

    "Bumi would be disappointed I didn't try it." Korra's mouth smiles. "Both of them. But at least Korra knows now. Thank you."

    The glow in her eyes fades as Korra regains control. She blinks slowly.
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    Not often a former Avatar incarnation takes over for the main persona, is it?

    "Aang didn't know either."

    "Then you can learn something genuinely new which you can pass on to future Avatars in turn."

    "Huh." She doesn't sound certain, but I get the impression that she likes that idea. "Yeah. I guess I can."
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    As long as she's careful about playing around with it, trying to work out the specifics.

    I suppose the idea does make sense. What can be taken away or returned can also be bestowed. With a little practice, she might well be able to revive the Airbenders. The problem then becomes what happens when word spreads and people start approaching her looking to gain bending of some kind? Give everyone what they ask for? Risky. Make sure there are checks and balances on who gets what? That's bound to upset someone... It's a moral quandry well beyond a teenage girl's wisdom, for sure.
     
    Bud-E said:
    Cool chapter I'm a little upset with myself that I've never thought of any of this either
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    Chojin Patriarch said:
    I suppose the idea does make sense. What can be taken away or returned can also be bestowed. With a little practice, she might well be able to revive the Airbenders. The problem then becomes what happens when word spreads and people start approaching her looking to gain bending of some kind? Give everyone what they ask for? Risky. Make sure there are checks and balances on who gets what? That's bound to upset someone... It's a moral quandry well beyond a teenage girl's wisdom, for sure.
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    It's been a while, but this isn't the first time this has been pointed out:
    Mr Zoat said:
    My eyes drift away slightly. "On my home parallel, there's a television series. It doesn't exist here. It's called 'Avatar: the Legend of Korra'. In the setting, there are people who can manipulate the classical elements: earth, air, fire and water. Each of the four ethnic groups have an affinity for one element, and the skills and modes of thought required to use it define their culture. Now, when I first saw it, I thought that anyone from the right tribe could learn to manipulate their element, just by studying the signature martial art. So, everyone had the same potential and it was just a matter of spending the time and effort. But by the time Legend of Korra started, it was clear that that wasn't the case. People were born with the ability or not. Those who had it could learn to improve it, but if you didn't have it, tough luck. So in the city the series is set in, there's an element manipulating criminal syndicate and the police force only recruit element users of one type. And unsurprisingly, that causes a great deal of resentment."

    "The main bad guy in series one is the leader of the anti-elementalist movement. He's a water manipulator himself, but his hate is genuine and he can use his abilities to permanently remove the element control abilities of others. Thing is, it never occurred to him that he could use the exact same ability to give element control abilities to people who didn't have it. Assuming they didn't resist, it would only have taken him about thirty seconds a time. If he'd done that, everyone would have access to all the things that the elementalists could do, and if they chose not to develop those abilities… Fine. But he was too busy hating himself and encouraging others to hate that he never stopped to consider the alternatives."
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    Mr Zoat said:
    and he gets an out which allows him to avoid choosing whose existence was never previously hinted at from a being whose existence was never previously hinted at to help him fight a bender who was weaker than him anyway.
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    It's a very minor thing, but the Lion Turtles actually do get a single mention before they show up in the final season. Aang sees a drawing depicting a scene of one of the Lion Turtles meeting some dude in Wan Shi Tong's library. Its hardly a memorable foreshadowing.
     
    This is basically explicitly what the lion turtles originally did - they took nonbenders and built cities on their backs with bending going to a chosen few scouts and soldiers, and how the first avatar learned to bend in different styles in the flashback in season 2 of Korra. That said, this somewhat contradicts established lore that the first benders were the moon / moles / dragons, etc…
    Therefore I have a personal theory that the lion turtles are spirits fighting against human progress of any sort by using promises of an east solution. It would fit with the slow moving turtle theme and the lion guardian theme
    Korra should have ended with a lion turtle popping up and attacking republic city like Godzilla.
     
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    Mquz said:
    This is basically explicitly what the lion turtles originally did - they took nonbenders and built cities on their backs with bending going to a chosen few scouts and soldiers, and how the first avatar learned to bend in different styles in the flashback in season 2 of Korra. That said, this somewhat contradicts established lore that the first benders were the moon / moles / dragons, etc…
    Therefore I have a personal theory that the lion turtles are spirits fighting against human progress of any sort by using promises of an east solution. It would fit with the slow moving turtle theme and the lion guardian theme
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    I think the power themselves was granted by the lion turtles, but the styles that humans eventually used was learned from those "first benders". We see Wan learn firebending from a dragon and use what he learned to dominate against the "wild" firebending hunters.
     
    Ngamer11 said:
    I think the power themselves was granted by the lion turtles, but the styles that humans eventually used was learned from those "first benders". We see Wan learn firebending from a dragon and use what he learned to dominate against the "wild" firebending hunters.
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    yeah there not much contradiction and if there are any then we can all blame history, it have been a few thousand years
     
    Ngamer11 said:
    I hope that, if that does come to pass, Paul could find a way to restore Korra's connection to previous Avatars.
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    Given that like the concept of Yin-Yang, Vaatu and Raava are two halves of the same whole, completely inseparable from one another even if one is "destroyed", in accordance with psychology and mysticism confronting the spirit of darkness within, doing some "shadow work", finding balance and fully merging with him as much as Raava might be essential in that endeavor.....
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    "What else can you do with energy bending?"
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    Besides giving people bending powers, if this statement leads to Korra fully exploring and expanding upon the uses of Energy which others would learn from her, Paul accidentally making Cultivation into an actual practice in the setting thanks to this question is quite hilarious.
     
    I've been wondering this, had Paul been assimilating or killing the spirits he comes across in the avatar world, rather than placating them as he says he was?
     
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