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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Reader mode
Buggy123 said:
You don't have to go all judge and jury-y if you're in a situation where basically any decent person would immediately put a hole in Joker's head. It's not some ridiculous lubricated slope, where if you literally kill one mass-murdering psychopath, you end up taking over the entire country and ruling it in fear.

Just put a bullet in him and then use that almighty willpower that you've been using to not kill him to, yknow... not go all "Judge, Jury, and Inspector of Lemonade Stands". Batman set a damned high boundary and he kept it, so I'd say he can lower it a bit and just keep that boundary instead.
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Oh I hate the god damn "all or nothing" morality crap in comics. Yes, we all know Batman doesn't just snap Joker's neck (in the main continuity) because Joker is probably the most popular villain in the world. Plus, as stated, the state would have executed Joker a long...looooong time ago.

It's the same as that "If you kill him, you'll be just like him." Bullshit whenever a hero has the villain at his mercy. Nevermind the mountain of mooks the hero has likely murdered his way through just to get there. Then the villain will do something that makes it acceptable to kill them and voila, he's dead, smiles all around.

And don't even get me started on all the fucking "In cold blood" crap.

Stsword said:
Until he gets resurrected because the DC writers are too chickenshit to make a new character rather than use the New Gods as a franchise zombie.
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A small word in the writers defense. It's often less "too chickenshit" and more "We totally know that if we kill this character off, the fans will never stop bitching." Because, if there is one thing that every comic book fan knows, it's that when you throw out the rules, and let the writer do whatever they want (usually in an Elseworlds thing) the very FIRST thing they do (besides corrupt the Paragon) is start killing everyone off. Oh my god, they just can't WAIT to kill Spider-man, or wipe out the entire X-man team minus their favorite (Almost guaranteed to be Wolverine)

Also, and more importantly, as much as people scream "New! Give us new! God, all you do is the same thing!" The fact of the matter is, their dollars just don't support that claim.

Launching new characters is practically an exercise in futility. People support the characters they always have, and even on books that get acclaim (Blue Beetle comes to mind) people just don't support them.

Hell, that's why Marvel opted to just try and replace their existing characters with Different race/gendered versions in All New All Different. They know good and damn well that despite all the cries for more "Representation!" that all those DOING the crying weren't going to head down to the comic shop to...you know, BUY the book. Plus, given that Marvel really....REALLY hates their Older fanbase (I.E the only thing that has kept them going comic book wise) they figured they could have it both ways.
 
Nervaqus987 said:
What he's referencing is in Justice League Ultimate, when Darkseid came back fused with Brainiac and was kicking everyone's ass, Luthor grabbed Metron and forced him to take him to get the Anti-Life Equation. When they get to the Source Wall, Metron tells Luthor that only a 12th level intellect has the slightest hope of surviving.

Luthor, being Luthor, says that means he's over qualified and promptly dives head first into the Source Wall and immediately starts screaming in horror at what he's experiencing.

Then we go back to Earth, Darkseid is about to carve out Superman's heart and Lex shows up in a business suit with the Anti-Life Equation in hand. Darkseid goes to get it and him and Lex vanish in a flash of light with no explanation about how or why any of the above happened or even how he got back to Earth from the Source Wall.
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Darkseid wasn't fused with Braniac in that one, he masqueraded as him to trick Lex into bringing him back.
 
SotF said:
Darkseid wasn't fused with Braniac in that one, he masqueraded as him to trick Lex into bringing him back.
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He was.

Basically what happened was that Lex went nuts after Brainiac and ran the Legion of Doom around trying to revive him. Tala eventually got sick of his shit and freed Grodd. After that failed, Lex had her stuck in a device to use her magic to revive Brainiac at the expense of her life. Tala threw a last monkey wrench into Lex's plans by retargeting the spell to get Darkseid instead.

Darkseid ended up with some Brainiac bits in him which is why he looked like this instead of this and said that "I'm more powerful than ever."
 
Maxx Crowley said:
A small word in the writers defense. It's often less "too chickenshit" and more "We totally know that if we kill this character off, the fans will never stop bitching." Because, if there is one thing that every comic book fan knows, it's that when you throw out the rules, and let the writer do whatever they want (usually in an Elseworlds thing) the very FIRST thing they do (besides corrupt the Paragon) is start killing everyone off. Oh my god, they just can't WAIT to kill Spider-man, or wipe out the entire X-man team minus their favorite (Almost guaranteed to be Wolverine)
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I should have been more specific, since Kirby, who invented the New Gods completely intended to kill him off in Hunger Dogs.

So being denied the chance to kill him off for good by DC, Kirby went to Pacific Comics, where he wrote the stealth sequel Captain Victory and the Galactic Rangers. About a space cop who inherited an artifact from his father that just so happens to look like the astro-harness, and who gets visited by the ghost of his grandfather.

Captain-Victory-12b.jpg


Really Darkseid should get the anti-death equation, the equation that turns one into a caricature of oneself that is incapable of dying.
 
Doppelgängered (part 23)
  • Threadmarks
    • 5th February
    21:16 GMT -5

    My armour is tough, but if Q-Ranger's powers work like Major Force's then he can keep hitting me indefinitely and he's… Yes, impeding my ability to repair it by ring. Constructs are out, and… Ugh. Problem. Like Captain Atom, Major Force 16 can switch back and forth between human and metallic at will. But I've just run into Justice League 12, and Captain Atom 12 is a containment suit wrapped around a nuclear explosion. That's the sort of mistake I'd only make for the people around me once.

    Can I touch his desires..? No, something blocking me. I'd guess Medea, but since I can't identify a local source it doesn't really matter. Close combat, then. I continuously try to send out filaments in order to keep his attention focused on his work and lumber towards him, arms outstretched. A barrier interposes itself-

    "Thanks, Star!"

    -and I trigger my right gauntlet's crumbler field to smash through it, grabbing Q-Ranger with my left. My gauntlet begins heating up at once, but now that he's touching my environmental shield directly…

    Desire Nullification.

    He blinks, the glow of his eyes dimming.. and.. I have constructs again. Quick flick through the equipment catalogue… Quantum stabiliser, that'll do. I generate construct shields to block Dame Carol's shots, stab out with x-ionised knives to destroy Vice President Luthor's arm-mounted plasma repeaters and clamp the quantum stabiliser to Q-Ranger's neck before shoving him out of the line of fire. Dame Carol flies towards me, the glowing crystal sword which appears in her hands slashing through my barrier. I interpose my left arm, twisting it so that the sword bites into what's left of my bracer and.. mostly passes through but is at least turned away from my body. Carol drops the sword and it decays into crystal dust as she replaces it with violet crystal fists which I immediately destroy with crumbler constructs before striking her in the head with a pile driver construct.

    "Ugh!"

    Soldiers around the room open fire, but their guns are a mixture of low power plasma and chemical projectile guns. Not a massive concern except in utterly overwhelming numbers. I shoot out filaments, punching through their armour and shock crowning them to the ground.

    "It will take a little more than losing a leg to-."

    I fire mage slayers at Sir Solomon's elbow and then step away, his hand keeping its grip even as it parts company with his upper arm and the last of the soldiers drop.

    Ring, access the schematics for the planeshift jammer my blue alter ego gave me and jam an area of 100 metres.

    Compliance.

    I then turn to Vice President Luthor, my armour glowing as I begin to undo Q-Ranger's damage.

    "Please stop. Every time I fight to support Syndicate efforts I feel a little more stupid, a little more like I'm making myself culpable for their prior actions."

    "That's usually how it works when you-"

    Lady Sonar takes out a backup weapon so I fire a blast of electromagnetic energy at her. Her weapon and some of her cybernetics spark and shut down, allowing me to connect a filament to her head and render her unconscious.

    "-help someone."

    "No, I know I'm now partly responsible for their future actions. I accept that. It's the idea that the Syndicate is some monolithic-." I sigh. "This isn't going to work, is it? Even if I could have talked you around-."

    I reach out and properly render each of the baseline human soldiers unconscious and point a railgun at Dame Carol as she pulls herself out of the crater she made on impact.

    "Dame Carol, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to ask you to surrender."

    The sapphire on her chest is still glowing, but she doesn't immediately generate a new construct.

    "I will not surrender to the Syndicate."

    "I'm not a member of the Syndicate. Can you surrender to me as an officer of the Orange Lantern Corps? We haven't had to actually deal with any prisoners yet, so you'd make an interesting test case."

    "No."

    "Literally the only reason why everyone here isn't dead is that I don't want to kill you. I don't want to kill you because it won't help the people of this country. It appears that.. I'm in a minority in caring about that, but-."

    Luthor's face hardens. "That's why we're doing this-."

    "Enigma literally told me to my face that he'd happily repeat Wisconsin in every state if that was what it took to destroy the Syndicate."

    "Enigma has lost a great deal fighting the Syndicate. It doesn't surprise me that when faced with someone in their employ he used immoderate language."

    "Alright, fine: would you?"

    I hear a sliding sound, and half turn as one of the… The unconscious and paralysed soldiers pushes herself off the ground. What? She reaches up to pull off her gas mask and.. a.. swirl of gas momentarily obscures her face.

    "I would be very interested-"

    The gas vanishes, revealing a blank face, her armour bleached white with the American flag replaced by the Eye of Providence.

    "-to know the Answer myself."

    Luthor narrows his eyes slightly. "I've never met a living conspiracy theory before."

    The Answer shakes her head. "Mister Vice President. I am a living conspiracy fact. An Answer you're unwilling to provide." She walks closer, her posture relaxed. "You've seen the same assessments that Orange Lantern has. The same assessments that my operatives have. You know the outcome of this conflict even as you set it in motion. And you're not Slade Wilson. Even with all of the friends you've lost you still haven't lost your objectivity, your.. devotion to your ideals. You would not let America burn as the President would. You talked him into waiting this long because this was the only approach which you believed could work in a way that you would both find acceptable."

    The Answer stops just out of arm's reach as Luthor shakes his head.

    "Whatever policy disagreements I may have with President Wilson, I would never air them to this country's enemies."

    The Answer pointedly looks at me.

    "Given that Orange Lantern is here and Batman is not, you may reasonably suppose that your attempt to overwhelm the majority of Made Men has failed. I have already been notified that Sureshot's attempt on the Director's life has similarly met with failure, though in his case fatally. Though Talon has been successful in neutralising most of Owlman's retaliatory plans, that leaves at least three sources over which you do not have control, in addition to the… Manual efforts of the Made Men."

    Luthor's eyes dip, his head turning slightly away for a moment as… I assume that he's trying to come up with another solution.

    "There is no more data to be gained, no more questions to be asked. Your path and that of the President are now irreconcilable. So you have a simple choice: mutually destructive escalation or a cautious disengagement. I already know the Answer… But I think it may be best if you say it."

    Luthor shakes his head, a very subtle motion as he tries to deny the reality.

    "I know how you work. I know what you'll do."

    "I'm a well known criminal. Your administration's reputation will survive my actions. And Slade Wilson's legacy will remain intact."

    "I…" Luthor closes his eyes and bows his head. "I agree."

    The Answer nods. "Correct Answer. I will make the arrangements."

    "The Syndicate loses." Luthor shakes his head as the Answer turns and starts to walk away. "Then why does it feel like we do?"

    "You didn't get what you convinced yourself that you deserved. That's always the Answer. Anything else is window dressing. Orange Lantern, I will speak with you before you leave."

    Another swirl of mist and the woman the Answer… Possessed? Collapses to the ground.

    Dame Carol frowns for a moment, then relaxes. "The war is over."

    Luthor shakes his head. "No. It's never over. But the campaign is." He looks at me. "Have you killed anyone?"

    "To the best of my knowledge, not on this Earth."

    "I would appreciate it if you could arrange for the Justice League to be released."

    "I'll need one of your teleporters, but… I should be able to do that. What exactly happens next?"

    "We're enacting your plan, apparently. You should be happy. You've probably saved millions of lives."

    "We've saved millions of lives. And to be honest? I suspect that I'm about as happy about it as you are."
     
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    • I did not see that coming. Nice reference to Question's iconic speech to Luthor from JLU. Wonder how the JL 12 will handle it. They should tell them what happened, if only so that their Question would hear it. I would love to see an omake of the JL 12 talking about OL and how the war concluded, and Question's observations of it.
     
    Ardy said:
    What the fuck is that meta bullshit I can't even
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    DC has been meta for decades.

    Cary Bates discovered that he had author powers in the DC universe in 1974.

    Multiversity was an especially meta storyline in that the Empty Hand is from Earth Prime. An empty hand is what you have when you put down your last comic book.

    The Empty Hand is the readers when they decide the story is over. The Empty Hand is the declining sales that leads to dead comic books.

    moralrelativity said:
    Could someone please give me a run down on who The Answer is and what their powers are? Once again, my lack of familiarity with DC is a problem. Thanks.
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    Zoat made up the Answer here, but they are based on the Question. Who in DC is often portrayed as a conspiracy theorist, like in the JL cartoon, and had a run in which he was an urban shaman.

    Well, it looks like Zoat reversed the polarity so instead of a conspiracy theorist shaman, the Answer is a conspiracy fact possessing spirit.
     
    Not exactly what I expected but one of the solutions I thought reachable, for Luthor to accept some kind of truce and reign the leashes on his side. I just thought he and the Illustres would have been able to talk it out, instead of someone else just showing up out of nowhere to convince him. Nonetheless, this Answer fellow was interesting, is it like a Boss Smiley type thing but for conspiracies and with the attitude of the Question? Or maybe just the evil version of Question that knows a lot more about magic than just some street shamanism?

    It's a pity that the episode only has one more segment left and that apparently there won't be any reunion with Power Ring Blue and Zorina, that especially is going to leave me really disappointed but oh well. Maybe there's a reunion in Crisis of Infinite Pauls?
     
    Stsword said:
    Zoat made up the Answer here, but they are based on the Question. Who in DC is often portrayed as a conspiracy theorist, like in the JL cartoon, and had a run in which he was an urban shaman.

    Well, it looks like Zoat reversed the polarity so instead of a conspiracy theorist shaman, the Answer is a conspiracy fact possessing spirit.
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    There is a canon character with the name.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    My armour is tough, but if Q-Ranger's powers work like Major Force's then he can keep hitting me indefinitely and he's… Yes, impeding my ability to repair it by ring. Constructs are out, and… Ugh. Problem. Like Captain Atom, Major Force 16 can switch back and forth between human and metallic at will. But I've just ran into Justice League 12, and Captain Atom 12 is a containment suit wrapped around a nuclear explosion. That's the sort of mistake I'd only make for the people around me once.
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    In most cases, it's a mistake anyone would make once. They wouldn't be making any more.

    Desire Nullification.
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    Can't fight back if he can't want to.

    ...mostly passes through but is at least turned away from by body.
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    ...mostly passes through but is at least turned away from my body.

    Carol drops the sword and it decays into crystal dust as she replaces it with violet crystal fists which I immediately destroy with crumbler constructs before striking her in the head with a pile driver construct.
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    Bet she's never had to face Crumbler tech before.

    "It will take a little more than losing a leg to-."
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    No time for Monty Python References today, buddy. Even unintentional ones.

    Ring, access the schematics for the planeshift jammer my blue alter ego gave me and jam an area of 100 metres.
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    Don't want Luthor bringing through more Leaguers, after all.

    "No, I know I'm now partly responsible for their future actions. I accept that. It's the idea that the Syndicate so some monolithic-." I sigh. "This isn't going to work, is it? Even if I could have talked out around-."
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    He's really getting sick of this all, isn't he?

    ...so you'd make an interested test case."
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    ...so you'd make an interesting test case."

    "Enigma has lost a great deal fighting the Syndicate. It doesn't surprise me that when faced with someone in their employ he used immoderate language."
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    'Immoderate'. That's an understatement.

    The gas vanishes, revealing a blank face, her armour bleached white with the American flag replaced by the Eye of Providence.
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    Oh, boy. Don't mention Aglets :D

    The Answer shakes her head. "Mister Vice President. I am a living conspiracy fact. An Answer you're unwilling to provide." She walks closer, her posture relaxed. "You've seen the same assessments that Orange Lantern has. The same assessments that my operatives have. You know the outcome of this conflict even as you set it in motion. And you're not Slade Wilson. Even with all of the friends you've lost you still haven't lost your objectivity, your.. devotion to your ideals. You would not let America burn as the President would. You talked him into waiting this long because this was the only approach which you believed could work in a way that you would both find acceptable."
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    In other words, I was right. Luthor isn't into the 'no mercy' party line, he's just stuck following it.

    "Whatever policy disagreements I may have with President Wilson, I would never air them to this country's enemies."
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    This is not a war, Luthor...

    "There is no more data to be gained, no more questions to be asked. Your path and that of the President are now irreconcilable. So you have a simple choice: mutually destructive escalation or a cautious disengagement. I already know the Answer… But I think it may be best if you say it."
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    As I suggested when all this started to come together: "Your boss is insane, and no longer deserving of your loyalty." A very strong argument.

    "I'm a well known criminal. Your administration's reputation will survive my actions. And Slade Wilson's legacy will remain intact."
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    Even if he won't?

    "The Syndicate loses." Luthor shakes his head as the Answer turns and starts to walk away. "Then why does it feel like we do?"
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    Because the whole situation could have no winners at all. Merely different levels of loss.

    Dame Carol frowns for a moment, then relaxes. "The war is over."
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    OL will be wanting that Star Sapphire back, thanks.

    "We've saved millions of lives. And to be honest? I suspect that I'm about as happy about it as you are."
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    And no-one goes home happy, but at least they're alive.

    Huh, literal Deus ex Machina. That's one way to settle this whole fiasco.
     
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    I like how Answer only makes statements, and never asks a single question.

    It's also a cool concept. Like something Morrison would come up with.

    Interesting how Veep Luthor is just as trapped by his allies mistakes as Paul's regular Lex was.
     
    Mr Zoat said:
    "Enigma has lost a great deal fighting the Syndicate. It doesn't surprise me that when faced with someone in their employ he used immoderate language."
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    "I do not work for the Syndicate. I, in fact, am doing what is supposed to be your job: defending the United States of America from all enemies, foreign and domestic. It just so happens that, in this case, one of those enemies happens to be a rogue agency within the country's government who are so intent on their campaign of ethnic cleansing that they simply don't care that their actions are creating an existential threat to the country."
     
    The Question was already in this fic, back when OL discovered Darkseid's based on Earth and he IS human, though with some minor magical powers of some sort.
     
    Damn I fucking hate Paul with a passion. Seriously this guy is like the embodiment of every smug liberal trope but is going to be right and win no matter what due to author fiat. How fucking disgusting.
     
    Vaermina said:
    Congratulations Paul, you are now responsible for every bit of pain, suffering, and death the syndicate causes.
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    Really? You were just vouching for Luthor as a ">12th level intellect". And he was just convinced, by a 5 minute conversation, that he really had to do this to avoid the deaths of basically the entire country, and now you're convinced Paul is at fault?

    Wouldn't a >12th level intellect consider things like "Hey, with this new superhero who just demonstrated his capabilities in front of me, we could take down the syndicate without killing everyone!"

    Wouldn't a >12th level intellect realize if he was being swayed by false arguments, as opposed to reaching a unfortunate conclusion based firmly in known data?

    No.

    You. Are. Wrong.

    By your own words, you are wrong. You just said that Luthor was smart enough to make this decision, and congratulations, he just made it. The only thing that OL did that the Answer would not have done, was cause the attack on the grouped Made Men to fail. But that was hardly a tipping point; the assassination attempt failed as well, and OL had no involvement there. And the Answer seems to think that it would have been a long shot even if both had succeeded.
     
    So, what conspiracy theory are they talking about? Is she the embodiment of the Illuminati?
     
    TheEyes said:
    "I do not work for the Syndicate. I, in fact, am doing what is supposed to be your job: defending the United States of America from all enemies, foreign and domestic. It just so happens that, in this case, one of those enemies happens to be a rogue agency within the country's government who are so intent on their campaign of ethnic cleansing that they simply don't care that their actions are creating an existential threat to the country."
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    Being right doesn't always mean you're going to get the dickheads who are wrong, to work with you. Especially if you call the dickheads out. And when you want to foist the entire thing off onto a group of the dickheads to do the job properly, so you can just go on home, then you don't call them out for being dickheads. Or call them dickheads.

    Some people could take offense to that, and stop being sensible.
     
    Mquz said:
    So, what conspiracy theory are they talking about? Is she the embodiment of the Illuminati?
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    The Light is the illuminati, actually, or the YJ equivalent.

    In the comics Vandal formed the Illuminati with Arion of Atlantis' brother before Atlantis fell beneath the waves. They replaced George Washington with Adam Weishaupt.

    Anyway, to answer your question, I think the Answer is the answer to every conspiracy theory, the Truth That is Out There.
     
    Buggy123 said:
    Really? You were just vouching for Luthor as a ">12th level intellect". And he was just convinced, by a 5 minute conversation, that he really had to do this to avoid the deaths of basically the entire country, and now you're convinced Paul is at fault?

    Wouldn't a >12th level intellect consider things like "Hey, with this new superhero who just demonstrated his capabilities in front of me, we could take down the syndicate without killing everyone!"

    Wouldn't a >12th level intellect realize if he was being swayed by false arguments, as opposed to reaching a unfortunate conclusion based firmly in known data?

    No.

    You. Are. Wrong.

    By your own words, you are wrong. You just said that Luthor was smart enough to make this decision, and congratulations, he just made it. The only thing that OL did that the Answer would not have done, was cause the attack on the grouped Made Men to fail. But that was hardly a tipping point; the assassination attempt failed as well, and OL had no involvement there. And the Answer seems to think that it would have been a long shot even if both had succeeded.
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    Do we really have to go back over how stupid Paul's plan is?

    Because numerous people have explained it already.

    On a side note, it's really amusing that you believe the criminal psychopath mind controller named "Answer".
     
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