With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Maxx Crowley]

stop being snippy.

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My friend, that's Vaermina's whole shtick. He's basically a heckler that takes umbrage with literally almost everything OL has ever done.

Now, I can certainly see Batman and OL's relationship becoming strained if OL smacks the shit out of his murder-wife while doing his self-appointed job better.

"You don't have the training."

Crazy lady...he has a power ring. A tool that is LITERALLY designed for you to go "Ring, do the thing."

Ring: "Doing thing."

*Analyzes literally every single thing in the room down to the very atoms.*

 

[DAT_NOOB]

You just suggested Melinoe could cause temporary insanity for academic purposes, but when it's done with chemicals it's baaaad....
Double standard.

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to be fair Talia suggested that not paul

 

[RichardWhereat]

can you give some examples?

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Nope. Generally no.

 

[Ej190]

No, Paul is protected by Zoat, his author, altering certain things or even creating them whole cloth to protect his self insert from what would under canon be the consequences of his actions.

Also of course the liberal dose of plot shields that let Paul use an Orange Ring without going crazy in the first place.

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Holy shit dude, I don't think zoat is perfect either, but at least I don't type up a snippy comment after literally every single update!

Seriously, what do you want out of this story? Why are you still here?

 

[Stsword]

I forget where I picked it up from, but I subscribe to the theory that a lot of the odd metahumans had an inactive meta gene that saved them and influenced what powers they got. Dr Fries gets doused with fatal cryogenic chemicals and he becomes Mr Freeze, for instance.

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Potential metahumans are in a life or death situation, and they undergo a mutagenetic change.

In Invasion!, the Dominators gathered a bunch of people and then tried to kill them en masse.

The survivors became the team the Blasters.

In Bloodlines, alien shapeshifters came to Earth and slurped down people's spinal fluid. The survivors were known as New Bloods.

However, according to season 3, the metagene works differently in Young Justice. It established that family members have predilections towards similar powers, hence both Terra and Geo-Force both having earth based powers.

In the comics they didn't have metagene powers, but rather underwent a process that always gives out earth based powers, although if you aren't of the Markov royal family the result was either temporary or unfortunate-

Spoiler

 

[Mquz]

So, my joker theory: he's a sanity / common sense vampire. People around him make bad decisions, and someone who spent a lot of time with him became Harley Quinn. It also explains why Gotham is the way it is: with a distinct lack of common sense.
This might have something to do with the Sage Force, if that's a thing that exists.
In this fic, he almost convinced people to give him cyborg limbs, but that got vetoed by an outside observer.
Conceptual bullshit like emotion vampires are the only things that make him make sense.

 

[CTrees]

Wild guess time: Talia gets killed by something that OL and Robin would have easily tanked. Killed, because power ring makes less serious injuries trivial, and because Lazarus pits are likely still being "watched" after OL ruined it for everyone. Batman reviews Batcave recordings, blames OL for Talia's decision making. If they had just switched roles (analyzing evidence in a lab is a whole lot safer for the squishy baseline human than field work), Batwife would still be alive. And that's what tanks OL's relationship with Batman.

But I think I've been right exactly once in my guesses, so that's probably not it.

 

[Mr Zoat]

This might have something to do with the Sage Force, if that's a thing that exists.

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[Aeess]

Orange Lantern teaming up with Batwoman kinda reminds me of this

 

[Mr Zoat]

Orange Lantern teaming up with Batwoman kinda reminds me of this

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That's not exactly fair. She has a lot of specialised knowledge and organisational skills the SI doesn't have, and he can't make up for all of it with the ring. Sure, if there's a direct and obvious threat 'angel summoning' is going to trump everything else, but it isn't obvious that BMX Bandit would even offer that much if the crimes were BMX-orientated.

 

[Lord Ernest]

I'm just really glad the Illustres was able to get that out of his chest, although I think he should say the same to Batman or maybe to most of the Justice League already. Honestly, is not like he wants to be in the Justice League, he's in the Team (barely) because he likes to Superhero with his friends, nothing more, and it's obviously more convenient to cooperate with the League in general because of the organization apparatus already in place.

In any case, maybe someone remotely connected to the Light was sponsoring this 'Doctor whocares' or while they investigate that something else comes up and that's the proper adventure of this episode? I'm still happy Robin showed up after so long.

 

[Aeess]

That's not exactly fair. She has a lot of specialised knowledge and organisational skills the SI doesn't have, and he can't make up for all of it with the ring. Sure, if there's a direct and obvious threat 'angel summoning' is going to trump everything else, but it isn't obvious that BMX Bandit would even offer that much if the crimes were BMX-orientated.

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If I remember correctly she was in charge of the finances of the League of Assassins, so I dont really see how her skills help her as a Crime Fighter in any way, that a Power Ring with its super advanced AI couldn't do much better and faster. She would probably be better of joining the justice league rather than fighting street crime and Super villains.

 

[Dur'id the Druid]

Holy shit dude, I don't think zoat is perfect either, but at least I don't type up a snippy comment after literally every single update!

Seriously, what do you want out of this story? Why are you still here?

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This guy has a long reputation of bloating threads with never-ending debates over tiny details that get stuck in his head. A good 1/3 or more of the a SAO and ZnT crossover story (Halkina online I think?) that took up over 30 threads on SpaceBattles is blamed on V. He was even banned just for being V at one point. He did write one story that I know of and was actually pretty good. But it looks like he's going back to old habits.

 

[Jormuungaand]

You picked it up from earlier in this very fic.

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No, I had that theory well before I found WtR.

 

[iamnuff]

Eh, I don't give a damn about Talia, but in OL's place I'd have involved the police a little more in the bust, if only to soothe their worries about working with OL.

"Yeah, ok, I just scanned for smilex and found several gallons of the stuff, located here, one guy inside, armed with a pistol."
Not asking permission, but just narrating what you've found to them on the rooftop, so they're kept in the loop instead of just vanishing and reappearing with an entire drug-lab and cook floating around you.

I guess he wanted to make a statement to Talia.

 

[SpiritualSlacker]

Did anybody in the story ever address the fact that Talia is, y'know, a criminal and former accomplice to a genocidal terrorist? And that she's essentially getting off scot-free for that shit?

Even if she was only ever the Shadows' bookie (and fat chance of that) and never killed anyone (again, doubtful, because remember how she tried to dissolve Hagen - Clayface - alive because he "used" her to get at a Lazarus Pit), she was still aiding and abetting a cult of murderers. But Batman seems to be okay with this?

There's other stuff I could say here, but frankly I've had this rant too many times. Tl;dr: Batman/Talia being a thing seems absurd, and nobody* getting upset about it bothers me.

*'nobody' as in nobody in the story. IRL I'm sure there are plenty of people who share my confusion.

 

[Aeess]

Did anybody in the story ever address the fact that Talia is, y'know, a criminal and former accomplice to a genocidal terrorist? And that she's essentially getting off scot-free for that shit?

Even if she was only ever the Shadows' bookie (and fat chance of that) and never killed anyone (again, doubtful, because remember how she tried to dissolve Hagen - Clayface - alive because he "used" her to get at a Lazarus Pit), she was still aiding and abetting a cult of murderers. But Batman seems to be okay with this?

There's other stuff I could say here, but frankly I've had this rant too many times. Tl;dr: Batman/Talia being a thing seems absurd, and nobody* getting upset about it bothers me.

*'nobody' as in nobody in the story. IRL I'm sure there are plenty of people who share my confusion.

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The SI cant really complain about it, considering that he also helped his Girlfriend escape justice, even though she murdered over three dozen people.

 

[Ganurath]

Well, Batman needs to get his rocks off, and there were only so many amorous female supervillains to choose from.

 

[Vaermina]

can you give some examples?

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Paul's anti-scry tattoo's.

In every setting they exist in, they only block demonic scrying and have the effect of killing a person if they were to ever enter hell.

Kryptonite.

Which Zoat altered to be a multiversal constant instead of a unique and separate thing to each universe it exists in.

Spell Eaters.

Which don't exist in any DC setting at all, not even theoretically.

The Sword of the Fallen.

Which in the settings it exists in is only ever shown to be effective against demonic beings.

Boom/Hush Tube technology.

Which are supposed to require the hard to get Element X as a power source.

I could go on of course, but what I already provided is more then enough to show the SI's plot armor in action.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

The SI cant really complain about it, considering that he also helped his Girlfriend escape justice, even though she murdered over three dozen people.

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Jade went to prison for awhile, the main reason she isn't still in there has more to do with the fact that the justice system either didn't know about or couldn't prove her more serious crimes. Iirc, they also didn't actually start dating until after she got out.

 

[Travisplo]

Paul's anti-scry tattoo's.

In every setting they exist in, they only block demonic scrying and have the effect of killing a person if they were to ever enter hell.

Kryptonite.

Which Zoat altered to be a multiversal constant instead of a unique and separate thing to each universe it exists in.

Spell Eaters.

Which don't exist in any DC setting at all, not even theoretically.

The Sword of the Fallen.

Which in the settings it exists in is only ever shown to be effective against demonic beings.

Boom/Hush Tube technology.

Which are supposed to require the hard to get Element X as a power source.

I could go on of course, but what I already provided is more then enough to show the SI's plot armor in action.

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The Kryptonite thing is dumb, and doesn't make ANY sense. Spell eaters are a logical progression of the ward stones that light up in the presence of magic, just cranked up to like 50, with the help of the magic of Atlantis. I don't remember Paul using boom or hush tubes, remind me of when he did? Note, not responding to the others as I don't have a good basis of knowledge in the Constantine stuff.

 

[Coda]

Paul's anti-scry tattoo's. In every setting they exist in, they only block demonic scrying and have the effect of killing a person if they were to ever enter hell.

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"every setting they exist in"... you mean... the one such setting?

Kryptonite. Which Zoat altered to be a multiversal constant instead of a unique and separate thing to each universe it exists in.

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Blatantly false, Zoat required the character to research the local variant of kryptonite on one occasion, and had it be similar but not exact on another occasion.

Spell Eaters. Which don't exist in any DC setting at all, not even theoretically.

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Oh no, an author made something up in a work of fiction! Dolmen Gates don't exist in DC either; they're from Magic: the Gathering. The source material simply doesn't go into sufficiently exhaustive detail about the magic system, so as long as the mechanisms a fanfic author chooses to employ aren't inconsistent there's nothing wrong with that. And nothing about spell eaters violates established setting rules.

The Sword of the Fallen. Which in the settings it exists in is only ever shown to be effective against demonic beings.

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In the setting it exists in it's barely seen and not even given a name. Extrapolating about its abilities is reasonable. And to counter the point of it being "plot armor", it was stripped away from him, which singlehandedly disproves your thesis.

Boom/Hush Tube technology. Which are supposed to require the hard to get Element X as a power source.

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It sure looks like Grayven had to go out of his way to construct a suitable power source to me. He couldn't do it until he stole a Father Box, which assumedly has enough Element X in it to generate the boom tube that GOT it to Earth, assuming Element X is even a requirement in all continuities to begin with. And then after that he started building up his technology; it's certainly implied did research and resource-gathering off-screen in order to build the base he has now.

 

[Vaermina]

The Kryptonite thing is dumb, and doesn't make ANY sense.

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Actually it makes perfect sense, Kryptonians being different in each universe aside, it's a material that's created from Krypton's destruction and that method of destruction is different in pretty much every universe.

Spell eaters are a logical progression of the ward stones that light up in the presence of magic, just cranked up to like 50, with the help of the magic of Atlantis.

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Which rests on the Zoat put in place assumption that Ward Stones eat magic instead of just having a "detect magic" spell cast on them.

I don't remember Paul using boom or hush tubes, remind me of when he did? Note, not responding to the others as I don't have a good basis of knowledge in the Constantine stuff.

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Renegade did.

Honestly while Zoat is a good writer, one of his biggest flaws is the Isekai protagonist like plot armor he gives his SI's.

 

[lefthandturnsignal]

I'm a little surprised anyone is arguing against the idea that the main character in a story has plot armor.

Of course MCs have plot armor. In most stories, the death of the MC means the end of the story, that's how it works.

Maybe some of the other side characters have plot armor that's a bit too thick, but that's normal in a comic book setting anyway, so I don't see a problem here.

 

[thebishop8]

I'm a little surprised anyone is arguing against the idea that the main character in a story has plot armor.

Of course MCs have plot armor. In most stories, the death of the MC means the end of the story, that's how it works.

Maybe some of the other side characters have plot armor that's a bit too thick, but that's normal in a comic book setting anyway, so I don't see a problem here.

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People aren't arguing that Paul doesn't have plot armor, they're arguing against Vaermina's definition of plot armor, which seems to be if you dare to change anything from "comic canon".

 

[TheMidnightRook]

I'm a little surprised anyone is arguing against the idea that the main character in a story has plot armor.

Of course MCs have plot armor. In most stories, the death of the MC means the end of the story, that's how it works.

Maybe some of the other side characters have plot armor that's a bit too thick, but that's normal in a comic book setting anyway, so I don't see a problem here.

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I'd have to agree, in fact, I'd even go as far as to state that people are so used to MC's having plot armour, that it being stripped away causes a great deal of shock. Like ASOIAF, where the cast is big enough that main (or, more accurately, viewpoint) characters do end up getting killed as the logical consquence of their choices and actions... and the audience gets caught by surprise even after the series has done it before, because the shock wore off and they let their guard down.

However there is another type of plot armour, the kind that let's characters not suffer the consequences of their actions. This usually comes in the form of Joker Immunity, but pops up in other ways as well. I don't personally think this form of armour is a problem with Paul, because the ways in which he dodges a lot of the consequences are themselves logical results of his earlier actions.

 

[ForeverShogo]

As useful as the ring is, it's still limited by the knowledge of the person using it. Talia wasn't wrong to point out his lack of investigative training. Paul can and does miss things if he doesn't know or think to scan for something. And that's not even really getting into how easy it is for people or organizations on Earth to shut down his ability to investigate them due to the proliferation of magical wards that we know can no sell power ring scans.

We've even seen situations where Paul has been bitten in the ass because of it. Like way back in the early days of the story when Jade was able to poison him just because he wasn't specific enough when asking the ring to check for poisons. There have probably been other cases, but that's just the one that sticks out the most in my mind. In no small part because one of the Common Sense snippets dealt with him getting that kiss without being poisoned.

So he could probably stand to take some lessons from the Bat Family in their unique brand of bullshit. Maybe even have Robin teach him his bullshit hacking abilities when wards prevent him from using his ring to plunder databases.

 

[jonasquinn]

The SI cant really complain about it, considering that he also helped his Girlfriend escape justice, even though she murdered over three dozen people.

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As someone else said Jade went to prison for the crimes she could be convicted of and served her time, getting out early for good behaviour, helping fight a literal prison riot and getting injured in the process and displaying a genuine desire to leave her criminal life behind and integrate into society

Yes there are crimes that Paul knows she committed that there's no proof of but in order to have her convicted of them he'd have to go out of his way to prove it and it's very likely that he couldn't even if he wanted to, basically at this point saying that he "helped Jade escape justice" is essentially just saying that you don't believe that the point of prison is reforming its inmates and instead to keep them there for an arbitrary amount of time until you deem that they've been there long enough

 

[Ardy]

In every setting they exist in, they only block demonic scrying and have the effect of killing a person if they were to ever enter hell.

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The latter is a lie (it won't make Zoat-sempai love you, Vaermina) and the former claim.... can you name two settings the tattoos appear in? Or by "in every setting" do you mean "hellblazer but don't want to look dumb by admitting I'm making up stuff"

 

[Mquz]

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Yeah, thought so. Still, the "common sense vampire" makes sense for this fic at least, what with common sense being a confirmed force of nature capable of making interrupts in the alternate universe.