With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[jonasquinn]

A few too many supervillain rampages made it hard for people to treat an alleged rampager fairly.

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Yeah but that doesn't excuse what Hardcastle did, even if Xor had been the aggressor, which a court of law found that he wasn't, Hardcastle still carried out an attack on an American town knowing that dozens of civilians would be caught in the crossfire and didn't even scratch Xor in the process

Collateral damage can be forgiven if you get results but all Hardcastle achieved was being responsible for far more deaths of innocent people than Xor was

 

[Vaermina]

Or possibly as little as six months.

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You can't tell over the internet, but I am laughing very hard right now at you thinking a company newly entered into the drug business is going to get anything but slow-walked by the FDA.

 

[Sceptic]

You can't tell over the internet, but I am laughing very hard right now at you thinking a company newly entered into the drug business is going to get anything but slow-walked by the FDA.

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Money and influence.

 

[Xelloss]

David Eddings wrote the same story five times.

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And I enjoyed every iteration of it.

 

[Mr Zoat]

They've

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Thank you, corrected.

But what about Hardcastle?

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Doing the best he could with the resouces at hand.

 

[doug89]

"On the assumption that you don't particularly want to be tortured in the name of realism, we're going to say that you held out for half an hour and then were beaten unconscious. Does that sound reasonable to you?"

"What, they don't have mind readers?"

"The mind reader quit after her boss fried her colleagues with a radiation weapon. They couldn't recruit another at short notice without alerting the League."

And paying through the nose. The villain team has a finite amount of resources to work with, and a short list of institutions they can 'rob' for more. But that results in an even higher risk of League intervention and it looks like they're trying to avoid needing to expand their budget.

"So why bother taking me at all?"

"The person who did it didn't know about the walkout. You.. overheard that from one of your guards, by the way."

"In case the Justice League ask?"

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What are the chances that this is false information to make the League think that the villains learning nothing?

 

[TheEyes]

Doing the best he could with the resouces at hand.

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What? No he didn't. He rushed straight to using indiscriminate violence, ignoring ground intel solely because he wanted to get his murderboner on in an American town, violating federal law (the US military can't deploy at all in US soil without Presidential authorization, and definitely can't open fire on civilians without it; that's been true for two hundred years) and possibly the US military's own Rules of Engagement (not personally familiar with them). He, and everyone who obeyed his orders, should be in military prison, and if he ever gets out he'll then likely go back to prison for all the civilians he murdered. If nothing else he'd still be on trial for all those murders; Hardcastle is not himself criminally insane, so he gets to undergo the normal (slow) court process like every other schmuck.

"We destroyed the town in order to save it" hasn't worked as a defense since Vietnam.

In fact:

"Yes. General Hardcastle is already in custody. That will be a fairly long process, but eventually-."

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That was September; this is March. I'm not sure any of Hardcastle's trials has even begun yet, let alone concluded. It would be kind of a big deal, really: the fact that he was apparently caught trying to cover up the crime as well:

His eyes narrow slightly. "That's a cheap shot. Hardcastle will be brought to justice-."

Ring? "Then you should hurry back to town. He's already covering his tracks."

"Oh God damn it." His hand goes to his right ear. "Flash to Icon, and hopefully Batman. We need to make sure that we get a full picture of exactly what happened in Thayer's Notch. Orange Lantern's doing a Geronimo and he might be on to something. Yeah."

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meaning that he knew what he was doing was wrong and was trying to erase the evidence would just add fuel to the dumpster fire of his career.

 

[Narutosramen]

President Knight's Secretary of State for Defense

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or and not for... I'm guessing.

 

[Gantradies]

.. yeah, i kinda agree- it..feels a...bit.....off that Hardass would be feeling sunlight again this quickly (or period), even if he had dirt on the personnel running the investigation/trial, or managed to destroy all of the evidence before the FLASH could reach his location- according to my (very limited, being an aussie) understanding of the legal restrictions on what the us military's allowed to do on home soil, he should be locked up for life/be undergoing one hell of a court martial unless he.... iunno.
personally dives in front of a bullet aimed at the POTUS or something and gets a post-mortem pardon-he prettymuch crossed the Rubicon, and burnt the bridge behind him- its something you JUST dont DO...
and i...cant really see a man who's on the record as being rabid enough to order his subordinates to riddle American civilians/women/children with lead as... having a rats chance in hell of getting picked up by either/any party with any sense- he'd be HILARIOUSLY easy to attack/discredit as a valid candidate for.... any, position, really- he'd be a liability, and running as an independent, in any well-entrenched system?

 

[Mr Zoat]

What? No he didn't. He rushed straight to using indiscriminate violence, ignoring ground intel solely because he wanted to get his murderboner on in an American town, violating federal law (the US military can't deploy at all in US soil without Presidential authorization, and definitely can't open fire on civilians without it; that's been true for two hundred years) and possibly the US military's own Rules of Engagement (not personally familiar with them). He, and everyone who obeyed his orders, should be in military prison, and if he ever gets out he'll then likely go back to prison for all the civilians he murdered. If nothing else he'd still be on trial for all those murders; Hardcastle is not himself criminally insane, so he gets to undergo the normal (slow) court process like every other schmuck.

"We destroyed the town in order to save it" hasn't worked as a defense since Vietnam.

In fact:


That was September; this is March. I'm not sure any of Hardcastle's trials has even begun yet, let alone concluded. It would be kind of a big deal, really: the fact that he was apparently caught trying to cover up the crime as well:

meaning that he knew what he was doing was wrong and was trying to erase the evidence would just add fuel to the dumpster fire of his career.

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I didn't mean to imply that's what he actually did. I meant to imply that was what his supporters think, and more or less what he thinks.

The rules are a little different in America 16, with one of the results of the War of 1812 being that the US military is authorised to use force against foreign powers attacking US soil. It's supposed to be used for surprise invasions, and one of the reasons why Hardcastle got into shit was because he stretched the definition and then messed up the execution.

or and not for... I'm guessing.

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Thank you, corrected.

.. yeah, i kinda agree- it..feels a...bit.....off that Hardass would be feeling sunlight again this quickly (or period), even if he had dirt on the personnel running the investigation/trial, or managed to destroy all of the evidence before the FLASH could reach his location- according to my (very limited, being an aussie) understanding of the legal restrictions on what the us military's allowed to do on home soil, he should be locked up for life/be undergoing one hell of a court martial unless he.... iunno.
personally dives in front of a bullet aimed at the POTUS or something and gets a post-mortem pardon-he prettymuch crossed the Rubicon, and burnt the bridge behind him- its something you JUST dont DO...
and i...cant really see a man who's on the record as being rabid enough to order his subordinates to riddle American civilians/women/children with lead as... having a rats chance in hell of getting picked up by either/any party with any sense- he'd be HILARIOUSLY easy to attack/discredit as a valid candidate for.... any, position, really- he'd be a liability, and running as an independent, in any well-entrenched system?

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[Briefly ponders how much he can say about policing policy on this site]

I recall hearing discussion a while ago on the rules of engagement for armed police in the UK. I believe that one party claimed that the current restrictive rules would produce more deaths that more relaxed rules, as while it did minimise the number of civilians killed by police it would result in paramilitary attackers being able to kill far more people and cause a net increase in deaths. This is the logic Hardcastle used, and if the attacker had been... I don't know, I'm trying to think of someone in DC who might launch that kind of attack and still be vulnerable to conventional weapons. Grodd, maybe? Then he might well have been right.

 

[PDV]

"Looks like. If he gets made President Knight's Secretary of Defense, life could get… Interesting. For both of us."

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This isn't something that could happen in US politics. We take civilian control of the military very seriously, as a rule; ex-military do not get made Secretary of Defense. Even if they're dovish and have been out of the military for a decade like Colin Powell in GWB's administration.

 

[Mr Zoat]

This isn't something that could happen in US politics. We take civilian control of the military very seriously, as a rule; ex-military do not get made Secretary of Defense. Even if they're dovish and have been out of the military for a decade like Colin Powell in GWB's administration.

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Without wanted to break the 'no modern politics' rule, it worked for Secretary of Defense Ross.

 

[Steelplaza]

So does anyone have any guesses about who the boss villain actually is? I suppose this might be two questions:

1. Who is actually running the "villain team"? (The Sivanas kicked in the robots, but I don't get the impression they're actually running things.)

2. Who is the leader of the villain team pretending to be? (That is, is there a particular villain they are assuming the identity of for purposes of the exercise?)

The SI says that the League should recognize them, implying it's not an "original" bad guy made up for this challenge.

For the first, I suspect that Orange Lantern has recruited one or more members of the Team to help simulate the bad guys. Maybe Robin and/or Aqualad? But if not them, what other earth-based "smart guy" heroic types* who aren't on the Justice League could he have potentially called in?

*I think whoever is running the villain team has to be firmly on the heroic side; this is revealing far too much of the League's abilities and potential tactics to trust with anyone they might have to fight someday. That's one reason I think the involvement of the Sivanas is limited to contributing some robots and other devices, for instance.

Then there's the second question. The simulated Bad Guy:

1. Is resource constrained and is "hiring locally" rather than using their own organization, at least at this stage.

2. Has to steal at least some technology they don't already have/can't create for themselves. (The Sivanas, for instance, would never bother using someone else's technology.)

3. Needs to access high radiation level areas.

4. Wants some kind of military information that General Lane would have access to.

This is pointing to an Earth based bad guy definitely; an alien invader would have their own troops/tech and wouldn't be shopping locally. The League will "probably" recognize them.

Mmmmm. A lot of options. We could be looking at a "good guy gone bad" scenario of course, but that doesn't quite seem right either.

Ideas?

 

[ForeverShogo]

Hardcastle would have a bit of a wait, unless this is going to be another thing you've decided is different about America 16. People who were in the military can be made Secretary of Defense, but they have to wait a minimum of seven years after they've left the military to be eligible for the position.

And since people are talking about that incident again, I still strongly disagree with the idea that Xor would have been acquitted. His actions went well beyond mere self-defense.

 

[Albert Scoot]

Hardcastle would have a bit of a wait, unless this is going to be another thing you've decided is different about America 16. People who were in the military can be made Secretary of Defense, but they have to wait a minimum of seven years after they've left the military to be eligible for the position.

And since people are talking about that incident again, I still strongly disagree with the idea that Xor would have been acquitted. His actions went well beyond mere self-defense.

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In the USA police are not liable for injuries caused by a policing action, I don't see why he couldn't get away with anything.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

The rules are a little different in America 16, with one of the results of the War of 1812 being that the US military is authorised to use force against foreign powers attacking US soil. It's supposed to be used for surprise invasions, and one of the reasons why Hardcastle got into shit was because he stretched the definition and then messed up the execution.

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Huh.

Earth 16's War of 1812 must have been a wee bit different from ours for that one to come up.

By my less then perfect understanding (On our Earth) the US was very much still functioning with the Militia system covering the bulk of inland national defense, rather then the US Army proper, and much of the fighting was done by State troops rather then the National Army. Indeed a good chunk of the issues America had in that war was those State Troops having little incentive to actually fight away from their homes, since they identified with their States more then the Nation at large, and considered the whole conflict to be 'Mr Madison's War'.

Part of the results of that war was something of a nationalization of defense to the federal government, away from the states, which is where I *COULD* see such authorization coming into effect. But for one little issue....The United States were the ones to both declare war, and invade over land. The US was the ones doing the 'surprise invasion' side of things (not to say it was entirely without cause, due to the British arming and sheltering native groups part of the 'Indian Wars' leading up to the big one with Tecumseh) .

Part of reasoning for the war was that US Navy Sailors were being press ganged into the Napoleonic Wars across the pond, so I could see the Navy getting extended mandates for how it acts. But the Army and Navy in America have always been very distinct branches with it's own guidelines and regulations.

Of course another large part of the equation was the political 'War Hawks' of the time and the budding concept of what would later become known as America's "manifest destiny to overspread the continent"

 

[jonasquinn]

Even if America 16 does have a law saying that the military can use lethal force without prior approval when faced by a surprise invasion that doesn't change the fact that Hardcastle stretched that definition way farther than he had any right to which almost instantly nullifies any legal protections that would grant him and the fact he utterly failed in even scratching Xor, killed several civilians, endangered dozens more and in the process completely embarrassed the US Military by ordering what is potentially the biggest fuck up in the country's domestic military history

Even if Hardcastles connections were somehow enough to not end up in prison his name should now be synonymous with "horrendous fuck up that ended with multiple US citizens dead and the person they were trying to kill unharmed"

 

[Vaermina]

Money and influence.

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Are pretty much meaningless at the level Kord Tech has in the face of the combined might of the already existent US drug companies.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Huh.

Earth 16's War of 1812 must have been a wee bit different from ours for that one to come up.

By my less then perfect understanding (On our Earth) the US was very much still functioning with the Militia system covering the bulk of inland national defense, rather then the US Army proper, and much of the fighting was done by State troops rather then the National Army. Indeed a good chunk of the issues America had in that war was those State Troops having little incentive to actually fight away from their homes, since they identified with their States more then the Nation at large, and considered the whole conflict to be 'Mr Madison's War'.

Part of the results of that war was something of a nationalization of defense to the federal government, away from the states, which is where I *COULD* see such authorization coming into effect. But for one little issue....The United States were the ones to both declare war, and invade over land. The US was the ones doing the 'surprise invasion' side of things (not to say it was entirely without cause, due to the British arming and sheltering native groups part of the 'Indian Wars' leading up to the big one with Tecumseh) .

Part of reasoning for the war was that US Navy Sailors were being press ganged into the Napoleonic Wars across the pond, so I could see the Navy getting extended mandates for how it acts. But the Army and Navy in America have always been very distinct branches with it's own guidelines and regulations.

Of course another large part of the equation was the political 'War Hawks' of the time and the budding concept of what would later become known as America's "manifest destiny to overspread the continent"

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I'm going to be honest here: I pulled that response out of my bottom.

I don't know enough about the intricacies of the functions of the US government to write them 'correctly'. I just wanted something that could conceivably be correct.

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

I'm going to be honest here: I pulled that response out of my bottom.

I don't know enough about the intricacies of the functions of the US government to write them 'correctly'. I just wanted something that could conceivably be correct.

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I've got no issues with a minor gaff like that. Most Americans I've spoken to don't know much about that conflict or the restrictions on their own military domestically. I'm a Canadian and even with that specific conflict being a part of high school curriculum it's not exactly greatly understood up here either, other then a few *cough* bragging rights.

The end results of the war was the US standing up for itself on the world stage as distinct nation, and the national, unified identity was in part forged there. It's sometimes considered the 'second war of revolution' for that reason. For us up north, at the time it was a bit more complex, in that Canada wasn't a discrete nation or a unified collection of colonies even after fighting it, and it certainly wasn't just England Junior either. The threat of repeated attempt being one of the driving factors for Confederation into a sovereign nation, since (for the bulk of the war) we'd had to stand on our own, as the British Empire was rather busy with the Napoleonic conflicts and couldn't spare the manpower to really help until later.

Anyway, enough beating a nearly 208 year old dead horse. Back to the Future Fiction!

It's been established that there are some rather significant differences between the real world earth, DC comics earth and WTR earth. It's your universe, we're just enjoying the ride. I think it's been mentioned at one point that indeed the whole population is dramatically less then earth prime...even without the supers that alone has to lead to some rather dramatically different history.

For all we know Earth 16 had a few alien/supernatural/villainous invasions during the war that could have triggered such an amendment...or WILL HAVE once some fellow named Rip Hunter goes gallivanting around with his time bubble once more.

Wonder what him and 'Rex' are getting up to, cooling their heels while the JLU hang on to their toy.

 

[jonasquinn]

Yeah, I have no problem with the idea that America 16 would have a law authorising the military to use lethal force in the case of a surprise invasion, my problem is that that wouldn't cover the Hardcastle situation and even if it did he'd still be persona non grata

 

[Steelplaza]

Yeah, I have no problem with the idea that America 16 would have a law authorising the military to use lethal force in the case of a surprise invasion, my problem is that that wouldn't cover the Hardcastle situation and even if it did he'd still be persona non grata

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You don't really know that in a "law of gravity" way, though. It's just what you think would happen based on the norms that you think are supposed to apply.

If some political factions decide to ignore those norms and say, "No, Hardcastle was a hero and we're going to go on television everyday and say what he did was right and good until people believe it".... well, who is to say that wouldn't work just fine? I'm an American and I think I have a reasonable knowledge of our political system, and I'm at the point where I can completely believe that a general could shoot up a town and be lauded as a hero if the right political/media factions decided it was in their interest to make him a hero.

Similarly, there's no actual law against making a former military officer the secretary of defense. It's only a norm that no one has violated yet. And if a president decided to ignore that norm, would anyone really care unless they were already opposed to him? Would anyone do anything about it? I doubt it.

 

[CTrees]

1. Who is actually running the "villain team"? (The Sivanas kicked in the robots, but I don't get the impression they're actually running things.)

2. Who is the leader of the villain team pretending to be? (That is, is there a particular villain they are assuming the identity of for purposes of the exercise?)

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I'm guessing Shade for #1. He seems like he would enjoy it, and OL has good relations with him.

As to #2? This feels like a Ra's al Ghul/League of Shadows plot, to an extent. If not for that, I would have guessed Klarion or Nabu, for the combination of lingering bitterness and "see if they've learned anything from their failures last time." It would also be a step towards damaging OL's relationship with Batman.

 

[jonasquinn]

You don't really know that in a "law of gravity" way, though. It's just what you think would happen based on the norms that you think are supposed to apply.

If some political factions decide to ignore those norms and say, "No, Hardcastle was a hero and we're going to go on television everyday and say what he did was right and good until people believe it".... well, who is to say that wouldn't work just fine? I'm an American and I think I have a reasonable knowledge of our political system, and I'm at the point where I can completely believe that a general could shoot up a town and be lauded as a hero if the right political/media factions decided it was in their interest to make him a hero.

Similarly, there's no actual law against making a former military officer the secretary of defense. It's only a norm that no one has violated yet. And if a president decided to ignore that norm, would anyone really care unless they were already opposed to him? Would anyone do anything about it? I doubt it.

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The problem with that is that a court of law found that Xor was the victim, meaning that Hardcastle was categorically in the wrong, the legal system has spoken and at best Hardcastle is an idiot that ordered the deaths of American civilians and at worst he didn't give a shit

Plus not even the best lawyers could spin him ordering his men to open fire on an American town filled with civilians in order to contain a situation that was already being contained by the Justice League against an opponent that was eventually found to have been completely innocent of any wrongdoing in a good way, especially in a world where people like Superman, the Flash or OL would be publicly calling him out for such a huge fuck up

I can understand Hardcastles political connections keeping him out of jail but absolutely not him being considered for anything close to a political position, he'd be encouraged to retire and disappear from the public eye forever in the hope that people would forget about the idiot that bombarded an American town

 

[Steelplaza]

I'm guessing Shade for #1. He seems like he would enjoy it, and OL has good relations with him.

As to #2? This feels like a Ra's al Ghul/League of Shadows plot, to an extent. If not for that, I would have guessed Klarion or Nabu, for the combination of lingering bitterness and "see if they've learned anything from their failures last time." It would also be a step towards damaging OL's relationship with Batman.

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Is Shade really smart enough to run something like this? I don't mean that in a disparaging way; just that OL would probably want to recruit someone who has either training/experience in directing and organizing other people or the raw brainpower to make up for lack of experience. Shade is powerful, but he's no general.

I don't think they're playing the part of the League of Shadows because we haven't seen any of the villain minions act like they are ninja assassins (the core cannon fodder of the LoS). Similarly, there's no sign this is a mystical villain... they're stealing technology and haven't used either magic or simulated "magic" any any point so far. I'd wager it's a DC character who either hasn't appeared or hasn't had a major role in the story so far- Mr Zoat delights in pulling out semi-obscure bits of continuity for occasions like this.

 

[Ganurath]

I'm hoping that the League, upon learning that the villain's telepath left, decides to try tracking her down and see if she wants to provide information as a way of avenging her dead fellows.

 

[Bramble Thorn]

Caught up again.

It's supposed to always be Red Rocket. Where did I get it wrong?

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It is bad that I think Rocket Red just sounds better than the reverse? Even if it isn't his official superhero name, I can see friends and coworkers calling him that.

1. Who is actually running the "villain team"? (The Sivanas kicked in the robots, but I don't get the impression they're actually running things.)

2. Who is the leader of the villain team pretending to be? (That is, is there a particular villain they are assuming the identity of for purposes of the exercise?)

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I know it isn't OL himself, but I kind of hope if the JL are able to follow the leads that far back to the Man Behind the Man, it leads back to some OC character, with a name like Pavlovian Pennywise, Legitimate Businessman™ and CEO of Pennywise Procurements, LLC. And the address is the in the waters offshore Manhattan, and if they go there Paul can make a new construct island as fictional new addition to the New York Metropolis, with a construct skyscraper shaped like a dollar sign, and on the top floor Paul would be there playing the part of Pavlovian Pennywise, ideally with a bald head, wearing a business suit and stroking a construct cat.

... and then everyone can remember about Teekl (the construct can OL used to have) and how Mr Zoat killed him off for real, and this is why we can't have nice things.

 

[PDV]

Huh.

Earth 16's War of 1812 must have been a wee bit different from ours for that one to come up.

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The War of 1812 was a Weird Fucking War where everyone involved can justifiably claim victory. (The only clear loser is France, who wasn't even one of the belligerents.) And it was basically the American Revolution Round 2, where the US war goal was "England stops treating us like a colony but for real this time". I have absolutely no trouble believing it could have gone radically differently up to and including starting any time between 1807 and 1820. And the tail end is only there because the Napoleonic Wars ended in 1815.

 

[FreeGod]

The problem with that is that a court of law found that Xor was the victim, meaning that Hardcastle was categorically in the wrong, the legal system has spoken and at best Hardcastle is an idiot that ordered the deaths of American civilians and at worst he didn't give a shit

Plus not even the best lawyers could spin him ordering his men to open fire on an American town filled with civilians in order to contain a situation that was already being contained by the Justice League against an opponent that was eventually found to have been completely innocent of any wrongdoing in a good way, especially in a world where people like Superman, the Flash or OL would be publicly calling him out for such a huge fuck up

I can understand Hardcastles political connections keeping him out of jail but absolutely not him being considered for anything close to a political position, he'd be encouraged to retire and disappear from the public eye forever in the hope that people would forget about the idiot that bombarded an American town

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I guess his political party could convince people that the trial was rigged and the court was corrupt, but that seems like a large amount of effort to go to for HardCastle. Can someone please give me an idea of just how well connected he is?

 

[Stsword]

I guess his political party could convince people that the trial was rigged and the court was corrupt, but that seems like a large amount of effort to go to for HardCastle. Can someone please give me an idea of just how well connected he is?

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He's an obscure character from the cartoons, so very little of him was shown.

He was a general involved with several secret projects- Anti-kryptonian measures and robot supersoldiers (which eventually produced Zeta apparently) , he got killed by Galatea after the JL asked him about Cadmus.

In the comics though he was shown to not be a complete sleaze- He saved Superman's life. Superman was investigating an apparent conspiracy to kill the POTUS, Hardcastle realized the conspiracy was actually to kill Superman and gave him a warning in time.

So he'd have to be pretty well respected and connected to get assignments like that.