With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Siskulous]

Not really, one leads to another. Back of the bus because they're not real people, they're not real people so therefore it's not rape.

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Not necessarily true. "Back of the bus" could be because they're "not as good" as other people, which I'm fairly certain was the majority mindset when back of the bus was a thing (note, I could be easily wrong about that since I'm about 30 or 40 years too young and from the wrong part of the US to have seen the subculture that did that sort of thing for myself). That would not necessarily lead to "they're not real people so it's not rape". And even if it the two were related they would both be symptoms of the same cultural problem - "they're not real people" being the cause of both - rather than one leading to the other.

 

[ForeverShogo]

To echo earlier posts, from what has been revealed the oppression faced by White Martians varies from city to city. With that variance pretty much entirely being from the whims of whichever Red Martian is in charge at the time.

We know that at least one city allows intercolor marrying. Which obviously implies other cities insist you stick to your own color.

 

[w34v3r]

In the previous chapter Karmang told OL that most of the colorist division was his doing, not the Guardians. He also seemed to be rather pissed that it had gotten to the extreme that it has.

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...Because the guardian programming made it look like a viable vector. By grabbing the reds and training them Karmang thought the greens and whites would then be more inclined to respect them as teachers. The guardian programming is both what causes that phenomena, and how martians can identify color in this context.

 

[Coda]

Yes, but you have more experience with-."

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Unnecessary quote.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Unnecessary quote.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Pinklestia]

Hate breeds hate after all.

 

[Valiran]

Wow. What a raving psychopath.

Ok, there was oppression. Fine. How much?


There's a difference between 'Back of the bus' and 'Rape at will', after all.

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That honestly depends on how bad his personal experiences were. Some of the stories I've read about how black people were treated in the southern U.S. have made me literally murderous with rage, and I'm as white as it gets! If he's seen or experienced the worst parts of anti-White Martian bigotry, then I find it entirely unsurprising he feels so much hate towards the Reds.

Hate breeds hate after all.

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Exactly this.

 

[Itypeslow]

and he want to

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This should be: "and he wants to"

 

[Ngamer11]

Mr. Zoat, when I checked your story only thread here, I noticed that Gude-Willie Waught wasn't threadmarked.

 

[Mr Zoat]

This should be: "and he wants to"

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Mr. Zoat, when I checked your story only thread here, I noticed that Gude-Willie Waught wasn't threadmarked.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Mr Zoat]

8th January
22:14 GMT

Mister B'lanx oozes self-satisfaction as the captured warship in front of me gradually changes from blue to orange.

"We overran the naval depot before they could get most of their ships in the air."

T'Pexor gestures to a ship sitting in a docking cradle, tubes containing some sort of food slurry connected to several damaged parts. "My colleague L'atroma was able to bypass their anti-phasing shielding and assault the crew directly. It seems that Manhunters don't train for that."

I nod. "They are more of a law enforcement organisation than a military."

I look over to the tunnel to the exterior where the remains of one of the ships that did is being… What, salvaged? Stripped for raw material? They're living creatures, so… Are they edible? They wouldn't be cutting it up if it were possible to restore it. The labour crew is comprised of Greens, while a handful of armed Whites act as their overseers.

"Yes." Mister B'lanx's tone conveys his distaste. "And now we must learn from their failure before they do." He extends his right arm towards another ship. "We're increasing their weapons loadout at the cost of habitation. I don't intend to send them on patrols, and the martians Karmang has freed don't have the same dependency on the proximity of others that other martians do."

"Who do you intend to send them against?"

"I had assumed that I would be sending them against the force the Manhunters would send to dislodge us. But if they're dithering, then I can use them to support a White uprising in another city."

"Wouldn't that leave you vulnerable?"

"We have good intelligence coming from fellow Whites in every city. My force would return here before anything the Planetary Council sent could reach us." He floats over the shipyard towards an area where a White Martian wearing the Hyperclan red circle is demonstrating the use of captured weapons to a group of other Whites. "And attacking the Manhunters' ships while they are separate and in dock will be far easier than destroying a unified fleet."

True… "Do you have enough trained personnel to crew them?"

"I was trained as an auxiliary before the last Prelate come into power and abolished the auxilia. All the other surviving auxiliaries are teaching volunteers now. Or forcibly extracting schematic patterns from the surviving Manhunters. They're not ready yet, but they will be by the time I'm ready to push things."

"About Karmang's attempt to negotiate with the Planetary Council…"

"I don't see how that's relevant to me."

"At the moment, he's the only person formally allied to the White Martian cause who can remove the Guardian programming. And given what happened at the monastery he attacked, I doubt that there will be other volunteers. If you want your followers to be able to live in low population conditions for prolonged periods of time, you need his support."

"Or we could move the fleet as we go, basing it in friendly White-controlled cities. The only other benefit is immunity to rötschreck, and it is impractical to use fire on the surface. T'Pexor, what do you make of this?"

"Karmang has millennia of wisdom guiding him. Regardless of the personal debt we owe to him, I do not believe that he would abandon the cause he founded for personal advancement or… Make a traitor's peace. But personally, I prefer war."

"Why?"

"Karmang has not had to live under the Reds and the Greens as we have. I do not think that he appreciates the value of wide scale violence for changing the minds of the martian species."

"You want to change the Greens' minds?"

"We're doing this to benefit White Martians everywhere. Even in cities which were not as oppressive as this one, White Martians suffer insults and violence not just from the government but from the Green and Red populations at large. The best way to stop that, the best way to make sure that they never forget what we can do, is to destroy their armies. To march into the cities they control and publically execute their leaders. That will teach them that they will suffer the same fate if they try to go back to their old habits far better than anything else we could try. Including having the Planetary Council peacefully passing power over to Karmang."

Mister B'lanx stops in the air as he considers the point. "You may well be right. I know this little fight has made more of an impression on me than almost anything else I've done. And I suspect that the same is true for our Reds as well."

I shake my head. "And then what? How do you intend to reorganise the planet when three fifths of a population is even more scared of you than two fifths are scared of the Planetary Council now?"

"Why should I care?" He rises in the air, getting above local obstructions to get a clearer view of this part of the city. T'Pexor and I follow him. "I'll keep this city. Rule it myself, in the interests of my fellow Whites. We're already integrating the Greens with essential skills into our government, and training Whites to fulfil every necessary role."

"And the rest of the planet?"

"I'll attack anywhere that oppresses Whites, but beyond that I don't really care."

"Your Red prisoners?"

"Why are you so interested?"

"I'm trying to understand your reasoning, and to make sure that you've thought this through. These are weighty issues, and a leader needs to give it due consideration. Will they be allowed to live here-?"

"No. No. Once the matter is decided, I will either exile them to another city or have them build a new city for themselves and leave them to their own devices."

"I am prepared to offer them a place of exile now." The Psion Wombworld isn't much to look at, but even after the bombardment it's a more hospitable place than Mars. "If you simply want them taken off your hands. I can ensure that they will not return for the duration of the conflict."

"No, they're useful to me where they are now. And I'm positively giddy at the idea of forcing them to do the same work they forced us to do. I certainly won't send them to a friendly land merely for the convenience of being rid of them."

"You're not worried about an escape, or a rescue attempt?"

"Fire might not be much use on the surface, but their prison has enough incendiaries that any attempt by them to leave would be… Immolatorially stupid."

"I see."

Reminds me a little of the ending of Small Gods. Vorbis dies, and Brutha takes his body to the leaders of the invading army and surrenders Omnia. He offered to pay reparations for Omnia's prior actions, to return territory they'd seized and to disarm the nation… Only for the Omnian army to form up on the edge of the beach anyway, and the invaders to form up to fight them despite the whole fight being rendered completely unnecessary. Karmang isn't Brutha, but he honestly hated those priests and he still didn't kill most of them. J'onn believed that the only reason that the Planetary Council weren't openly talking about making some fairly significant concessions was fear of the uprising, and B'enn seems set on proving their worst fears right.

"If that's your final word, I will inform Karmang. Could I give him some idea of how long he has?"

"If the Manhunters don't move first, I want to move on Mal'ren'ranna in ten days. The fighting there was inconclusive, but the Manhunter garrison has few ships."

"I understand. I'll leave you to your preparations."

"Yes. Go. It would be helpful if Karmang saw things my way. I disagree with his approach, but I have a great deal of respect for him. All White Martians who truly know him do."

I nod politely. "I will be certain to pass that on."

Mother Box, hush tube.

Ping.

8th January
17:18 GMT -5

I step out into the Hall of Justice, shaking my head as J'onn looks around.

"Not good. I think I'm going to need to borrow M'gann."

 

[BR549]

And so Grayven concludes that he must dispense his duty as a god, and smite.

 

[Gantradies]

*headesks* the idiot leapt without thinking again- called it, his hand-picked lieutenants are incapable of long-term planning past "kill the reds".

my prediction, is without Gravy's intervention,assuming the Hyperclan survived a full-scale planetary civil war, it woulda been a "new boss, same as the old boss" scenario, whatshisface goes back into stasis for a few millenia, wakes up, throws another temper tantrum at the whites simply recreating the old status-quo with them atop, decides to start modifying/empowering the Greens instead whilst cutting a bloody swath through the White leadership...

basically, im reading him as one of those people who's extremely smart, and equally as dumb...

 

[Vaermina]

"Not good. I think I'm going to need to borrow M'gann."

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Well, this probably isn't going to end well for anybody.

 

[RichardWhereat]

J'onn believed that the only reason that the Planetary Council weren't openly talking about making some fairly significant concessions was fear of the uprising, and B'enn seems set on proving their worst fears right.

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Well, they should have made those significant concessions.

 

[Phrexia Unbound]

Well, this probably isn't going to end well for anybody.

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You don't say?

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

I nod. "They are more of a law enforcement organisation that a military."

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I nod. "They are more of a law enforcement organisation than a military."

Spoiler: Commentary spoilered for length

The labour crew is comprised of Greens, with a handful of armed Whites act as their overseers.

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The labour crew is comprised of Greens, with a handful of armed Whites acting as their overseers.

"We're increasing their weapons load out at the cost of habitation.

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"We're increasing their weapons loadout at the cost of habitation.
(This use is usually one word... I could be wrong)

The only other benefit is immunity to rötschreck, and it is impractical to use fire on the surface.

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Interesting term. Coined entirely by White Wolf's development team? Odd that the rings should choose that over something else...

To march into the cities they control and publically execute their leaders.

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To march into the cities they control and publicly execute their leaders.

Rule it myself, in the interests of my fellow White.

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Rule it myself, in the interests of my fellow Whites.
(This flows better. Up to you.)

"Not good. I think I'm going to need to borrow M'gann."

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Hmm... Calling in backup. This situation is on a knife's edge, and neither option is entirely desirable...

 

[Ct613hulu]

I may be wrong but isn't this somewhat of a repeat of what happened the first time Karmang interfered in Martian society? He empowered a tight knit group of individuals selected on basis of there race. Once this group was out from under his direct control they used their unique advantages to acquire a position of dominance and restructure Martian society in a way that placed their race at the top while oppressing the other two races.

 

[nick012000]

I may be wrong but isn't this somewhat of a repeat of what happened the first time Karmang interfered in Martian society? He empowered a tight knit group of individuals selected on basis of there race. Once this group was out from under his direct control they used their unique advantages to acquire a position of dominance and restructure Martian society in a way that placed their race at the top while oppressing the other two races.

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Basically, except that the Whites probably aren't strong enough to score a decisive victory, so in most of the other DC universes (e.g. the comics) the Whites fought to the point of mutual (near) extinction instead.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I nod. "They are more of a law enforcement organisation than a military."
The labour crew is comprised of Greens, with a handful of armed Whites act as their overseers.
The labour crew is comprised of Greens, with a handful of armed Whites acting as their overseers.
"We're increasing their weapons load out at the cost of habitation.
"We're increasing their weapons loadout at the cost of habitation.
(This use is usually one word... I could be wrong.
Rule it myself, in the interests of my fellow White.
Rule it myself, in the interests of my fellow Whites.
(This flows better. Up to you.)

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Thank you, corrected.

The only other benefit is immunity to rötschreck, and it is impractical to use fire on the surface.
Interesting term. Coined entirely by White Wolf's development team? Odd that the rings should choose that over something else...

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The SI knows the term, and it's the closest to what B'enn said.

To march into the cities they control and publically execute their leaders.
To march into the cities they control and publicly execute their leaders.

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In this instance, I'm ahead of the curve.

 

[Old Knife]

Well there is a literal Martian Goddess coming to smack some senses into these idiots.


She's been ascended right?

 

[Stsword]

Well there is a literal Martian Goddess coming to smack some senses into these idiots.


She's been ascended right?

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No, her programming was undone.

Although I recently read a Suicide Squad comic that had a conversation along the lines of "He's not a god, he's a white martian." "Same diff."

It could be seen as an analogue transformation, but since it works through a different process to achieve different results, hardly the same.

I may be wrong but isn't this somewhat of a repeat of what happened the first time Karmang interfered in Martian society? He empowered a tight knit group of individuals selected on basis of there race. Once this group was out from under his direct control they used their unique advantages to acquire a position of dominance and restructure Martian society in a way that placed their race at the top while oppressing the other two races.

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"My demands are simple. All Red Martians will leave all high political offices and the Planetary Council will disband. I will be recognised as the ruler of Ma'aleca'andra. I will chose new leaders for each city, and _new laws will be put in place to ensure colour equality_ henceforth. Once I am satisfied with the situation, I will eliminate my office and return to my studies."

Of course nothing stops the whites from changing the laws after he hibernates again, or the laws still technically being on the books but the authorities ignore them, but at least he's trying to do better this time.

 

[Ct613hulu]

I am basing my comments on the latest story post where it appears that significant portions of the Hyperclan are not supporting Karmang's plan for color equality and are instead well on their way to establishing a new authoritarian order in which they rule and the other colors of Martians are oppressed or outright exterminated.

 

[Stsword]

I am basing my comments on the latest story post where it appears that significant portions of the Hyperclan are not supporting Karmang's plan for color equality and are instead well on their way to establishing a new authoritarian order in which they rule and the other colors of Martians are oppressed or outright exterminated.

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Well that's presuming that Karmang gave magic powers willy nilly and didn't put in back doors so that they follow his orders or else.

He might be thinking that after it stops raining the brains of the disobedient, that the survivors won't want their heads to explode, or that he'll just recruit martians whose brains are still on the inside.

 

[Ct613hulu]

Has there been any indication that Karmang is keeping his followers on such a short leash? It seems like he was perfectly willing to indulge their murderous impulses in every scene that he and his immediate followers appeared. It also seems that the followers outside of his immediate presence are operating independently with essentially non-existent coordination and are organized into independent power structures with minimal loyalty to Karmang personally.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Has there been any indication that Karmang is keeping his followers on such a short leash? It seems like he was perfectly willing to indulge their murderous impulses in every scene that he and his immediate followers appeared. It also seems that the followers outside of his immediate presence are operating independently with essentially non-existent coordination and are organized into independent power structures with minimal loyalty to Karmang personally.

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There's a difference between talking shit about your boss when they're not there and doing it to their face.

 

[Stsword]

Has there been any indication that Karmang is keeping his followers on such a short leash? It seems like he was perfectly willing to indulge their murderous impulses in every scene that he and his immediate followers appeared. It also seems that the followers outside of his immediate presence are operating independently with essentially non-existent coordination and are organized into independent power structures with minimal loyalty to Karmang personally.

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Karmang's stated plan is for him to be Supreme Poobah, apoint the city leaders himself, and announce laws of color equality

We then saw that one of the Hyperclan plans to play king of the hill with a city.

So which seems more likely?

That Karmang, the telepathic 20 thousand year old archmage hasn't noticed that the people he gave superpowers to are a bunch of assholes?

Or that his plan for world conquest includes contingencies for dealing with assholes who don't want to do what they're told?

 

[Ct613hulu]

My perspective is that Karmang making a crucial mistake that causes all of his plans for Mars to go terribly wrong once he is out of the picture would make sense as a similar repeat of his earlier mistakes leading to original rise of the Red Martian Sorcerer-Priests.

What do you think Karmang is doing to ensure that the Hyperclans remains loyal to his vision?

 

[Stsword]

My perspective is that Karmang making a crucial mistake that causes all of his plans for Mars to go terribly wrong once he is out of the picture would make sense as a similar repeat of his earlier mistakes leading to original rise of the Red Martian Sorcerer-Priests.

What do you think Karmang is doing to ensure that the Hyperclans remains loyal to his vision?

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I've already stated what I think he did just four messages above.

"Well that's presuming that Karmang gave magic powers willy nilly and didn't put in back doors so that they follow his orders or else.
He might be thinking that after it stops raining the brains of the disobedient, that the survivors won't want their heads to explode, or that he'll just recruit martians whose brains are still on the inside."

Even Shazam put in the backdoor that he can take the powers back whenever he wants, why anyone would assume that the guy trying world conquest is more trusting than Shazam, I have no idea.

 

[Ct613hulu]

I recognized your earlier argument and would agree that any direct rebellion against Karmang himself is probably doomed to failure. My point was that this only applies when Karmang is still around and that it cannot prevent the Hyperclan from creating a society that will not follow Karmang's vision of an egalitarian Martian civilization. The ability to destroy any of your followers who oppose your will and the ability to lead those followers in the creation of a stable and ethical society are two very different things.

Karmang thought that he had created an organization that would follow his vision once he was gone when he originally empowered the Red Sorcerer-Priests. He is now doing the exact same thing with the Hyperclan.

The key idea is what happens to Mars once Karmang believes that he has fulfilled his mission and leaves or is killed.